Well my first attempt at counseling did not go as expected. It was only for 45 minutes and we got into the subject of children immediately. My husband is insistent that he is "indifferent or neutral" on the subject. I don't understand this. The counselor basically just listened with a few comments here and there. <P>The counselor wants me to make up a plan, put in writing with him everything my husband will need in his life in order to feel comfortable with having children. My husband said money, and him still being able to "live life" as he pleases, retiring at 55 would be a couple conditions.<P>This is unbelievable to me, we left arguing, got worse at home. People have children who have no money, but they want them. You shouldn't have conditions prior! I told him I wanted the house put up for sale and I was leaving to find someone who really, truly in their hearts wanted a family.<P>I broke down and left the OM a voicemail last night, telling him alittle of what happened and if he wanted to know if I left. I know it was wrong, but we used to talk about all our problems, and it became so comforting and I have no one else to talk to.<P>We slept in the same bed without speaking any further and this morning he wakes up like nothing is wrong?! He says he loves me very much and he's really sorry. He said counseling is stupid because it only makes us argue more and he does want a family.<P>I feel my life is a total wreck.

Hey Hummingbird,<P>Sorry to hear how frustrated you feel about your counseling, etc.<P>Some quick questions... have you read the information here on this website about how to make your relationship better?? Have you shared it with your husband? Are you working with your H using the Harley's methods?<P>If not, do so now. You both will be happier in weeks, if you are anything like me and my H.<P>Let me know what happens!<BR>Hugz and prayers, Thoughtful

Hummingbird:<P>Counseling is hard work. In fact, I'd say your husband was honest with you. Those are his real feelings---and he had the kindness and courage to share them with you.<P>And you attacked him because those didn't coincide with your goals, and then went running to the OM. Not very mature behavior.<P>I think you should go back to your counselor and stress that perhaps the first thing you should be working on is communication skills with NO LOVEBUSTERS!! Then, the next thing is to start using the Policy of Joint Agreement and learning how to make negotiations safe and pleasant. Your counselor was trying to do that in making you write up a plan---but I think it was too early to start that before you have been taught the communication and negotiation skills.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>People have children who have no money, but they want them. You shouldn't have conditions prior!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>While this is true for some, it's not necessarily true for your husband. And your stating that as a "fact" is a MAJOR DISRESPECTFUL JUDGEMENT to your husband. And the threat of the sale of the house is yet another Lovebuster---A triple angry outburst/selfish demand/disrespectful judgement.<P>Running to your OM won't solve any problems. You need to learn behavioral skills to exist in a marital relationship. Get back to counseling---with someone else, if you don't feel that this person was effective.<P>I'm not beating on you because you're a betrayer---I'm concerned that you really need to learn and understand these concepts, and it's clear by the post that you don't yet really have a clue about how to employ the Rules of Protection, Care, Honesty, and Time to have a successful marriage.

Hi Hummingbird --<P>OK, I know you read K's post and probably thought that he was just hammering you and being judgemental. And in some respects he was. But it wasn't out of contempt. He is very blunt, and his posts are usually meant as a cold slap in the face. So please don't take offense. His advice really is good!!<P>In fact I agree with just about everything he says:<P>1 - About the kids thing, you and your husband both have different views. But the way you communicate about it is completely adversarial. You gotta stop that. No love-busting. You BOTH have to learn some compromising behavior.<P>2 - Work on communication skills. Councellors can help on that.<P>3 - The threats you made to your husband after the councelling session were unneccesary and probably hurt your husband. I hope you apologize to him. He apologized to you...<P>4 - Don't under any circumstances contact the OM!!! I know you feel like he's the only person you can talk to, but you're just using that as a crutch. Don't contact him or else you'll NEVER get over him. Remember - HE'S TRYING TO WORK ON HIS MARRIAGE. He didn't pick you (as terrible as that makes you feel).<P>Two other things I'm thinking right now: First, I think you might have made the councelling harder than necessary because the OM is still strong in your mind. Perhaps you would benefit from a private councellor on your own. Second, I think eventually you're gonna HAVE to tell your husband about the affair. That may seem REALLY scary to you, but it's necessary. It goes to the root of why you want to go to councelling in the first place, and your husband doesn't even know it.<P>This is gonna be really HARD work. Made doubly hard by your confused depressing emotions! But be strong! I'm pulling for you!<P>--andy

Thanks Andy, yeh it sure was a glass of cold water in my face. I must of read his post 10 times. He is right. My husband was trying to be honest with me and I completely freaked out.<P>I want him so badly to feel as I do. I want him to really want children. I can be very stubborn when I think I'm right. It was immature calling the OM and I know it was wrong.<P>I called another counseling center today. Maybe it will be better with someone else. It just didn't feel right with this person and my husband did feel the same as well. <P>I'm going to try counseling on my own without my husband. I need to for myself. <P>I do mostly feel like giving up at home because of the OM. Even though he's gone, I miss him so and nothing my husband is trying is working. <P>I wish I could fall back in love with my husband like it used to be. I used to be a very happy person, always smiling looking at the bright side of everything.<P>Andy, congratulations on your new job and best of luck to you.

Hum,<P>Thanks for the congrats!<P>I'm glad you didn't take offense at K's post. And I think it's good that you find a councellor for yourself. And if you don't like the one you have, just keep looking til you find a good one.<P>I believe that you can find a way to be back in love with your hubby again. If you remember what it was like when you guys first met, and how happy he made you feel back then, you have a chance. Read all the material on this website. Buy the book "His Needs Her Needs". That stuff will help you.<P>About the OM... I think you should think about getting another job. Believe me, I know it's tough. But it's what you have to do. I had to. And I'm gonna be so relieved when I don't have to feel that "background noise" of the OW any more.<P>--andy

Hummingbird:<P>Read the parts of this site (concepts, Q&A's) that deal with Honesty, the Policy of Joint Agreement, and negotiation. That will help you understand the situation.<P>It's hard, but you will need to learn to encourage honesty by not responding with lovebusters. Even when it's negative. If you do, what will happen is that your partner will cease to be honest with you. That's a mechanism for disaster in a marriage (and the start of affairs).<P>The issue of children is a huge one---it's about the only one that I would consider divorcing over, if you can't solve it. But your husband hasn't taken an inflexible, impossible position. He's just taken a different position than yours. And I'm betting that some of his defenses may be that he worries that should you have children, you will switch to "Mom" mode and that his needs will go unmet (and that happens often). <P>You'll need to present your side of this to him in a way that will let him see why children are a benefit to HIM (not only that you want them), and show him what you're willing to negotiate to get to the point of having a family. When you (both) learn to consider each other's feelings and opinions, and work together to acheive a "win-win" situation, you will have built a truly wonderful marriage.<P>And you can do it. Consider the phone counseling here with Steve Harley if you don't have success with your local therapists. You might even consider Steve for your "personal" therapy---I used Steve while my wife continued her affair for about 9 months, and I made remarkable achievements in my behaviors that made me feel good about myself. They also had the benefit of making my wife feel that there was hope for our marriage.<P>Hang in there.

So K --- you ever thought about going into the councelling bizness??

I'm a very pale imitation of the real thing (Steve Harley). Steve's easy to access and pretty cheap, as counselors go.<P>

Thanks, I'm starting to see a new perspective on the kid issue. I have put up a barrier on this subject and felt strongly that it is a black or white issue. <P>He doesn't show his feelings very well or communicate easily. It's pulling teeth with him. He is has a very hard shell. I know he's soft inside. <P>I have a question on what to do with the things I've received from the OM over the past 2 years. Jewerly, notes, cards, even dryed flowers. I have every tape/CD with our numerous songs, of course I've been playing them over & over. Should I discard everything?

Hum,<P>Yes definitely!! Get rid of everything. The less things around that remind you of the OM, the better for you; the faster withdrawal can be over with!!<P>But I think you already knew that, right? It's just hard to do. You know, if you can't do it now, there will be a time when it will seem right to do it. But it must be done.<P>--andy

Andy,<P>I really envy you getting another job right now. Yes, I agree, I'm going to start looking this weekend. I will try to throw everything away. <P>Today's a bad day and I just got done crying in the bathroom. Seeing him is killing me.<P>I just read Holly's post on "More Married than happy". I can't believe it but I rented "Bridges of Madison County" last weekend. <P>I've been reading alot on this forum, and trying to take in everyone's advice. It's definitely helping.<P>

Hum,<BR>I didn't see any time frame on the ending of your affair. You need to get over that before you have children and that may take some time. Look at your reasons for having a baby, is it to save your marriage ? full fill a need ? or do you truly want to have children.<BR>Please answer these questions first and work on your marriage so that it is strong and both of you can support the baby.

It's only been 3 weeks, seems like an eternity. But I have constant contact with him. <P>Sometimes I feel if I got pregnant it would help get over the OM and it would help rekindle and unite me with my husband.

I'm just wondering why airheart thinks its so important to remember what it felt like to love your spouse in order to get it bacl? What if you don't remember? Is it still possible?

Hurting Wife, <BR>Yes!

Hurting Wife --<P>It's not impossible to (re)discover love for your spouse if you don't remember feeling that way before. But it's definitely a good sign if you do.<P>I'm hoping that's true for me. I never felt the kind of "head-over-heels" thing for my wife that many people here talk about. I really REALLY wish I did, because then I'd know for SURE that it's possible. I want to be happy and I want to do the right thing!<P>--andy

hummingbird,<P>I'm kinda late on this thread but I just wanted to say that the advice you've gotten so far is right on. My H refused to go back to the counselor because he (the counselor) seemed to favor me. It was a TERRIBLE three visits!! You do need to find someone you can both be comfortable with, and it wouldn't hurt for you to go alone to work on some of the issues. To me, you aren't going to be able to get on with your life until you are honest with your H about the affair. It isn't fair to him not to. He must realize SOMETHING is going on, but doesn't know WHAT. I've been on the receiving end of betrayal and I can say for certain that I KNEW deep down that my H was having an affair. I just KNEW. Yes, when he finally admitted it, I hated him for awhile because it hurts so much. But we were able to work it out. Then, stupid me, I had an affair. And believe it or not, we're trying again to work it out because - dammit!- we know it's the right thing to do. Is there love there? Yes, but not like it was in the beginning. I guess that's why I chose the name new_beginning. This is a NEW beginning.<P>You are right to be concerned about your views on having children. That should be resolved. But it doesn't sound like your H is firm in his desire not to have children. Maybe he just realizes somewhere inside that something is very wrong and doesn't want to add to the problems. You don't know what he's thinking in his head, you know??<P>Please find a way to get some counseling yourself and also work on facing your H with the truth. You will have a weight lifted off your shoulders if you can do it!!

OK, Hummingbird, now hold it right there!<P>You have two issues in your life right now: 1) OM/Withdrawal<BR>2) H's attitudes towards children.<P>You have to take care of issue #1 before moving to issue #2. <P>K is absolutely right. Demanding sale of the house because H is being honest with you about children is juvenile and immature.<P>Does your H know about the affair yet?<P>Using the OM as a weapon with your H is NOT COOL. Even if H doesn't know, you are going crying to OM when H doesn't do what you want. How is this supposed to make H think you'll be able to handle being a mother while remaining a wife?<P>Here's another question: If having a child is the paramount and most important thing in your life, why, oh why, did you not discuss this with your H prior to marriage?<P>As far as changing counsellors -- yes, sometimes it's a bad fit. But running from counsellor to counsellor until you find one that tells you what you want to hear is NOT the answer. Last week I stormed out of my therapist's office I was so angry, and then went back with my tail between my legs. Remember...sometimes not everything you do is right...or healthy.<P>If you think having a baby now will "end all of your problems" you are seriously deluded...and it is UNFAIR to a child to bring him/her into the world into this maelstrom. Have you ever heard the expression "glue baby"? That's a baby born into a troubled marriage because a woman thinks it'll solve the problem. Instead, it creates more.<P>It sounds like your H is willing to discuss some conditions under which he could deal with having a family. This is promising. He's probably concerned about losing himself and his own life, and your marriage, in "parenthood." It happens. It's actually a POSITIVE that he's expressing these concerns.<P>Here's what I think you should do. Take it for what it's worth:<P>1) First of all, get through the withdrawal. Priority #1 is changing jobs -- ASAP. Get rid of everyting OM ever gave you. Anything that reminds you, get rid of it. Stay away from movies with any extramarital activity in them, ESPECIALLY something like BRIDGES OF MADISON COUNTY -- an utterly odious story. Get individual counselling to help you through the withdrawal.<P>2) Once you're not so obsessed with OM, THEN you and H can start working with a "referee" to decide what you can work out about children. Look, kiddo, you have married a guy for whom family is not the most important thing in his life. You have to deal with that if you want to stay married to him. You will not change him. Counseling can help.<P>Good luck.<P>

I was only 22 when I married and children seemed so far into the future. He would always make off comments about having a family but I never took him seriously. I realize I should have.<P>I'm fairly new this website and I've been trying over the past week to read up on Dr. Harley's concepts. Me & my husband do not communicate well, we need help in the negotiating area tremendously. We say alot of hurtful things to eachother in arguments, withdrawing lots of love units.<P>I am still deeply in withdrawal from the OM, the weekends are always better. After everyone's advice on Friday, I really screwed up. I've been afraid to write for fear of being beaten up. I think I'm just hopeless. I know what's right and wrong and still I continue to do the wrong thing.<P>I copied Holly's post from "more married than happy" because it really affected me and my situation and sent to the OM before I left the office on Friday. I was so depressed about not seeing him for a week because of his vacation, which I know I should be relieved. The OM stood up at his desk and looked at me with his filled up with tears. He wanted to talk to me. So I agreed. He confirmed again how difficult this is for him, he's not sure himself about everything but he knows he can't leave now because of his son. He has to try this last time for his son. His wife will never be me and he knows his life will never be would it could be without us and our world. We are a perfect match and I am everything he's ever dreamed and wanted in a woman, made to his specifications, the most beautiful woman to him and always will be. I taught him the meaning of true love. He said it's not right to have me wait for him but if counseling didn't work, he would let me know. He know he will always have regrets and I will always have a big piece of his heart, the center. Someday we'll meet in heaven and we can share eternity. I know sounds corny but that's how I really feel as well right now.<P>I've been on edge all weekend after Friday night. I know I need to find another job and I am going to counseling Tuesday night by myself. <P>My husband had dinner ready for me Friday night and was so happy to see me. He repeated to say he wanted children and wanted to try Friday night. Of course, I said no and felt extremely guilty. <P>He's out now doing one of his "annoying activities", which is another issue with us and has escalated over the course of our marriage.<P>I feel thankful to be alone right now and appreciate everyone's help, even though I haven't been following through. <P>