I was just wondering what kind of agreements are seen as reasonanle for interaction between children and new mates of the ex. I have learned my STBX is taking son to state fair tonight with OW and although he is only 2 1/2 I feel strange having her interact so soon. Is this wrong? SHould I bring it up with him and set some guidlines? What is standard?

Hopeless in AZ

I am no too sure what is the "right" time, but i have been divorced for 1 year and my kids have still have not met my ex's girlfriend. My boys are 9 and 10, too early to introduce them to someone else, in my opinion. I am fortunate though, that my ex and myself feel the same about that issue. I know my kids are not ready for anything like that, and have expressed that to both me and my ex.

MY XH has been seeing the OW for about 2 yrs now and it has been 1 yr since both of my girls (9&6) were introduced to her. I guess as much as I hate the idea they rarely say anything bad about her but they have told me that the only reason they like going over to her house is because they like to go play with her 3 young girls. Otherwise, they wouldn't want to go there. That I can tell about the most negative thing I have detected from all of it is when they come home to me and they mention her name. It's like a kick in the stomach.

I guess I will allow it until I start hearing negative things coming from their mouths. He also introduced them to her way before we were divorced even though we were separated at the time. I would have preferred that he wait until the divorce was final but evidently she was pressuring him according to my XH.

Agreement? Probably none.....just hope our stbx handles the situation in a mature manner.

OTOH you need to remember to take the high road in all this. The hardest thing for me to do is not pump my kids for information re. the GF.

Having someone else involved in your child's life is a difficult idea to adjust to but it has to be done. Just be thankful if she is a kind person who treats your child in a loving manner and does not try and replace you.

You trying to have some agreement with your stbx is a control issue. You want to control situations that you should have no expectations of controlling. Your only concern should be if you have reason to belive that your child is in some sort of danger while in her prescence.

There are all sorts of guidelines regarding dating and children post divorce but few seem to follow them.

Divorce sucks and there are a million adjustments that are made. Unfortuanlty, when divorce happens with children you will always have a relationship with the ex and the less you try to control what he does and the more time you spend moving forward the better off you will be.

BTW....if you would like to get in touch since we both live in AZ that would be great! I'm further along in the divorce process than you and make a great shoulder to cry on or to vent to. My e-mail addy is amosedal@cox.net. write if you like. I live in NE Phoenix.

also see LostHusbands reply to NinaToo on hurt kids thread.

He says it very well. How your child deals with the situation depends a lot on how you deal with it.

HUGS!!!!

The child is two and a half...she couldn't pump him for information if she tried!

Hopeless in AZ, with all due respect, sending the lady to my thread is ok, but I have been at this a LOT longer than she, and so the advice there is probably a bit 'out there' for Hopeful. They have only been separated a couple of months. And my kids are older.

Hopeful, I am sorry your H is choosing to have your child in OW's presence so soon after separation day. It shows he is in a fog, and WS's in fog are very selfish. I suppose it is respectful that he told you he was taking them out together, mine didn't give me that courtesy.

I think I am probably too late, time differences and all, and anyway it sound like you agreed to him taking the child. But if it were me, I would not allow it so early in the piece. In my situation, I really have no choice, stbx IS going to divorce me, and so 'real life' has to be accepted. Also stbx works overseas and the kids haven't seen him for a year. AND I did write to stbx and I DID make an agreement with my stbx and in no way do I think that was a control thing.

We have young children who expect us to take care of them. I try to work for my kids' best interests in all my dealings with stbx. That isn't control....that is co-parenting. I do not believe introducing the kids to daddy's girlfriends so soon after him leaving is in the child's best interests. It will confuse the heck out of him. And your husband HAS to hear that. He may not agree, but he has to know you do not blindly accept this.

Love and light,

Jacky

Thanks for all the quick responses.

Hopeless. You are right that it is a control issue at the heart. It just really hurts all around because I think it is too soon plus he would never even have considered doing that with me and son. I just need to let it go. But it has been so hard these past few weeks.

Ninatoo, actually stbx didn't tell me. I found out from snooping some email. I also bet that when I ask when he drops son off Sunday he'll say they went alone. He doesn't want me to know they are back because of all the things he told me and because of all the problems I could potentially create at his office (his is an owner of the company where she works). And, control issue or not, I do however feel I need to express my feelings about introducing partners to our son so soon. If only to get an agreement that they will only be friends in front of him.

We'll see what he says..

Hopeful in AZ

Hopeless. I hope I didn't step on your shoes changing the signing of my name. Didn't realize there was someone else here with that name <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I used to be "hopeless in AZ" January then became "hopeful in AZ" when I came on board again in August so I've been signing hopeless since things didn't work out. Thanks for the email. I'll drop you a note.

No toes stepped on at all...

I hope that you did not misinterpret my post.

Guess what I was trying to say in a concise manner was that at this point in time "agreement" as such is probably not possible. Emotions are running too high on both sides. Your STBX knows you would disapprove that is why he did not tell you...my point exactly....at this point in the game these "boundry setting" sessions often seem more like control to the party exiting the marriage!

Trust me I've been exactly were you are at. I did let him know that I disapproved and you know what? It came back to bite me in the butt because when I started dating again and wanted to have my kids around my BF my EX turned it right back on me! Looking back on the situation I realized that my wanting to limit exposure to OW/GF types was more my anger and need to have some control over a situation that I was still trying to comprehend.

I'm sorry but I feel that some of these boundries that we set with the notion that we are protecting our children is nonsense that we feed our selves. When you have been left for another no matter how wrong and violated you feel you need to let go of the resentment and find acceptance. Part of that acceptance is allowing your children to be around the new mate no matter how bad it feels or wrong YOU think it is!! Not allowing your child(ren) to be exposed to the significant other in your EX's life only makes them think that accepting that person is wrong and that if they like that person then they are betraying you. God forbid the OP doesn't turn out to be the wicked monster that we want them to be so badly and your child actually likes them. It begins to create a strain in your child's life that they hide from everyone and eats them from within. Now what kind of parent would I be if I did that.

Now if your STBX would start introducing them to every girl he meets it would definatly be time to step in and set "limitations" to this behavior.

Please remember that what I write is only my opinions and thoughts and in no way do I feel that what I write is right for everyone.

Take Care.

But "accepting" as valid a relationship with a person who thinks it ok to sleep with a married man and destroy your family IS wrong. Why on earth would you want your children to become attached to a person without morals - this is not one bit different from your spouse marrying someone who was criminal of some other sort. If your spouse were to choose to marry a mafia boss, would you want your child looking up to a person such as that as a role model?

It is a parent's responsibility to do everything in his or her power to teach their children the difference between right and wrong. It is wrong to ignore behavior that is immoral. If your mother-in-law were cheating on her taxes, would you turn a blind eye to it or would you make sure your children knew it was wrong? Would you encourage someone to "let the children make up their own minds" about whether embezzlement was wrong?

<small>[ October 20, 2002, 07:58 PM: Message edited by: Nellie1 ]</small>

Well then technically the child should not be allowed to see his father either.

Ours is not a perfect world....

Hopeful,

While there isn't a "pat" time limit for how long a parent should wait until they introduce new people into the children's life. The large majority of counselors will stick to one year. Of course, the age of the child has a lot to do with it too. A young child will have no idea what is going on whereas an older child, will have real issues with new people being in Dad's or Mom's life.

"But "accepting" as valid a relationship with a person who thinks it ok to sleep with a married man and destroy your family IS wrong. Why on earth would you want your children to become attached to a person without morals - this is not one bit different from your spouse marrying someone who was criminal of some other sort. If your spouse were to choose to marry a mafia boss, would you want your child looking up to a person such as that as a role model?"

Nellie, while you make some valid points, I believe that children will be hurt and confused if you actively try to judge someone that your Ex has brought into their lives. The children will be confused. They love their Dad and you both. By making them choose between liking or accepting someone their father has in his life, you are putting them smack in the middle. Not fair at all. Why would any mother who truly wanted to protect their children do that?? I understand full well the jealousy and dislike that an Ex has for a woman who is with her ExH (especially if she was there before the breakup), but by making it clear to your kids that you don't like the woman and won't "accept" her, you are only hurting your own children. It comes down to the basics of child psychology. Children feel very much a part of BOTH parents. If you demean their father, you are demaning half of them. Your children will end up with self-esteem issues that could stay with them for life. Is it worth it? Talk to a child therapsit if you doubt my words. There isn't a trained one that will tell you what you advised is good for the children. Please don't take this in any other way than trying to help. I do not mean this in a harmful way to you.

The time for teaching the children about morals is not with their parent as an example.

Hopeless,
You gave some solid advice. Sounds like you are a very strong woman who puts her children's welfare first. Not an easy thing to do!

And I suppose if either the father or the father's new SO were a thief, you shouldn't tell your kids that is wrong either, because it would make them feel bad. Bull. Morals are NOT relative - if something is wrong, it is wrong whether your father does it, your father's new girlfriend does it, or a complete stranger does it. Teaching your children that wrong is not wrong if the person responsible is someone they know is incredibly harmful.

Having your father do something wrong does not mean you can't love him. That is ridiculous. I love my H and will till the day I die, but I will not pretend that what he did is right.

Whatever idiot came up with that theory that children somehow feel responsible for the wrongs of their parents doesn't know what they are talking about - not to mention the fact that if that were true, pretending their parent did not do wrong doesn't somehow make it right. There were things my parents did that I think were wrong (though not adultery, thank goodness), but I sure as heck don't feel in any way responsible. That would be about as stupid as if I felt somehow responsible for World War II because some of my ancestors happened to be German.

With my sistuation my H and I are in the process of a divorce. He is living with the OW(she is one that is known in town as the s**t, shes done this to many couples). In our visitation agreement he can not have our four children around anyone of the opposite sex that is not blood related. When he first left I let him have them for a sleep over (five,four,eighteen months,and eight months old) I was told that he would take them to another house. Well he lied big suprise. She told my five year old that she was going to be his knew mommy and that he will live with them soon. She has also threatened me by phone saying this to me. So the only way I would let my H see our children was under the agreement that no one of the opposite sex will be around. His attorney agreed that it was the best idea. He pretty much has no case for him. He walked out on me and our boys my story is posted in the infedilty forum.

You have to protect your children they did not ask for an unfaithful father and you did not ask for an unfaithful H. Your H made his bed now he has to live with it. I have told my children that their father did do something wrong and that his"friend" is why he left. I also told them that thier daddy loves them and that it is ok to love him and be mad all at the same time. Thats also how I feel. Children should come first. I'm not saying to not let your H see your kids your children deserve to see their father but they do not deserve to see their father with OW soo soon. Put your foot down.

As a second wife and stepmother, I have some pretty strong feelings. But also, I am a birth mom, although all three of my kids are now adults, and I have some feelings about my kids relationship with their father's on/off/again relationship with the woman my ex had an affair with while we were still married.

I also have some very strong ideas about what Nellie has written.

First of all, as a step mother, all I can tell you is that I *do* care about my husband's children. (This is in response to a remark Nellie made that she edited, I believe, about step-parents not caring about their mate's children.) I never pushed myself on them, don't hug them unless they hug me first, and never say "love you" or anything like that. My husband's daughter did say it to me one time while were having a deep convo, and it felt right to say it back. So I did.

It isn't that we (the kids and I) don't care about each other - it's that we didn't KNOW each other before, we were strangers, and I was an interloper in their family. I no more expected them to fall in love with me than anyone expected me to fall in love with them. Two years into knowing them, we have a friendly comfortable relationship.

As a birthmom to my adult children, I admit that I think it's kind of... oh, sigh... alright I'll say it... funny... that my kids don't like my ex's girlfriend. I hated her, which is kind of normal seeing as my (then)H was having an affair with her. She's been in their lives, off and on, for about two and a half years. If my ex marries her, they'll have to deal with that, and I would expect them to treat her with at least a little respect as their father's wife. They know the truth, and how they deal with it is their business. I understand though, that as adults we're talking about a different situation than a small child.

Now Nellie, this remark... </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Whatever idiot came up with that theory that children somehow feel responsible for the wrongs of their parents doesn't know what they are talking about </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are an intelligent, well-read person - and I know you know this has been well-documented over the years. Children OFTEN feel that they are responsible, and it is often subconscious.

My husband's eleven year old son blurted out one day that a friend of his told him that it was HIS FAULT his daddy left. He wanted his dad to explain who's fault it was. He told him, in an age appropriate way, what he wanted him to know. Me? I would have spewed the God's truth, you know that's how *I* am. But this is not my son.

I digress... the point is that children DO feel this way, more often than not, it seems.

Finally, Hopeful in AZ, I feel very strongly that before the couple is married, no matter how the whole thing began, it is inappropriate, especially with that young of a child, to be forced to spend time together. I think it is very acceptable for you to have it drawn into your divorce agreement that until there is a marriage that your stbx does NOT allow the person he's dating to spend inordinate amounts of time with your child. My reasoning is that if they break up, the child will be even more hurt and confused than before. A line-up of daddy's girlfriends (or mommy's boyfriends, for that matter) is not a good thing for a kid. But once they are married, it is in everyone's best interest to allow the children and the new spouse to forge a relationship of some kind (hopefully it will be a positive one). That's my opinion.

Sheryl,

I did not say that step-parents do not care about their spouse's children. They may become fond of them, but someone who would choose to be an OP by definition cares more about their own desires than about the welfare of the children. I said that OW's (or OP's in general) do not care about the children of the person with whom they are having the affair, or they would have stayed out of the marriage. That situation does not change if they succeed in helping to destroy the marriage and then marry the WS.

I would agree that it is well documented that adults claim that children feel responsible for the wrongs of their parents, but I have never seen any evidence that children actually do feel this way. It is just one of those statements, like "children are resilient" that was dreamed up to justify the destruction of marriages. I have also never seen any research showing that children ever blame themselves for a divorce when they know that their parent left for another person. Children blame themeselves for divorce sometimes when there is no obvious reason for it - which is one more reason to be honest with your children. I don't understand how a discussion of whether children blame themselves for a divorce is related to whether they blame themselves for wrongs their parents have committed. Children who blame themselves for divorce believe that they, not their parents, did wrong. That is not the same situation. I am talking about cases where the parent did do something wrong. Who committed the wrongful act is not in question.

I agree with your reasoning about how the fact that the relationship is likely to break up is additional reason for not encouraging an attachment to a boyfriend or girlfriend - but that same logic applies if the OP and WS marry. We see here on the board that those marriages often crash and burn before long.

No one has responded to my question - if your ex-spouse were to marry a criminal of some other sort, say a white-collar criminal who did not pose a physical danger to your child - would you want that child to look up to this person as a role model? Would you want the child to "respect" this person just because he or she is married to the child's parent?

I could go on for hours on this subject !! We are in the midst of D - H moved out in Feb. and filed in April . DD(13)will not have much to do with H - she knows why he left .DS (12) is pretty much in the dark about the "why's" .H brought OP around them while I was out of town the end of April -big mistake cause now the kids know he lied about her being just a friend . Since then ,recently H has brought her around our son on 2 occasions for short periods of time and it makes me sick .
She had no feelings for my children while she was sleeping with their father .NO RESPECT for them and their feelings -the hurt she was causing wasn't even a blip on the radar screen .And now she wants to make nice with them ??? How can OP look these kids in the eye and not know the pain they've caused by contributing to tearing their whole world apart . She had no concern for them this whole year so now she wants to be their friend ??
As you see , I'm pretty upset that OP all of a sudden wants to be nice to my children after she helped rip thier hearts out -What's wrong with this picture ??

Well here is my situation and how I'm handling it. My bride to be is now divorced and we are moving on with our lives. Now when the time comes or the oppurtunity arises I will be speaking to her ex. Basicially the what I'm going to say is that I'm not a replacement, I'm who I am and I'm just their freind who happens to look after them and the adult in charge when mom is not around. I don't want to keep the kids from him and neither does she. All she and I want is for him to repect our privatcy and follow the visitation agreement. He is the father not me but I do act and treat them as they where my own cause I'm the one that now supports them (he is unemployed and doesn't pay a cent in child support)and we plan to make sure they have all the chances at making a life for themselfs when they are old enough. We have been putting money aside for all five(two are mine) in a trust so they can go to school.
My girls and her get along alright because she treats them better than their own mother(she never home and is out with who ever doing what ever if you catch my drift here) Both Girls are teenagers and pretty much look after themselfs and they found a girfreind in my wife to be. She feels that she is not a replacement here too but in this senario she the only person they go to when it something to do with women's things if you understand what I mean(something us guys wouldn't understand <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> )
She is just a freind but she treats them like they where her own cause she feels bad for them in thesituation they are in. We have both talk to them and if they feel that they would be better off with us then we'll take them in but as for now they are happy spending every other week with us when the time comes.
There will be interaction between all parties when it comes to the kids just both sides must not poison them with your hate for the other. I don't care much for her ex, I think he is a waste of valuable space on this planet but I must repect his position cause I'm in the same boat. Hell I'll even drop the kids off to him if he can't come and get them, just to prove that I'm not a jerk.
This is my situtation for the time being and I hope that everybody respects the other and move on ( I really hope he finally gets the message and get a life <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> )we would all be much happier <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

231

Hi Nellie,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I did not say that step-parents do not care about their spouse's children. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay, I apologize. I obviously mis-read then.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would agree that it is well documented that adults claim that children feel responsible for the wrongs of their parents, but I have never seen any evidence that children actually do feel this way. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well... I have, but if your experience says differently, then of course I defer to that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is just one of those statements, like "children are resilient" that was dreamed up to justify the destruction of marriages. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with this, as you know. As I've said about a dozen times on this site... when I was in my 30's my parents separated and were headed for divorce. I cried my eyes out. It HURT. Yeah, I would have OBVIOUSLY gotten through it, especially as an adult, but EVERYONE (if they are honest, I think) wants Mom and Dad together (and happy is the best!). So if that's the truth for me as an adult, I am very sure that children, although yes, they *are* resiliant, are DAMAGED by their parent's divorces.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have also never seen any research showing that children ever blame themselves for a divorce when they know that their parent left for another person.

Children blame themeselves for divorce sometimes when there is no obvious reason for it - which is one more reason to be honest with your children. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, you know I agree about the honesty aspect. However, I HAVE met children who blamed themselves for their parent's leaving, even if it was for another person. The child I'm thinking about thought that her daddy left to be with OW because she (the child) was too hard to handle. It CAN and DOES happen.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No one has responded to my question - if your ex-spouse were to marry a criminal of some other sort, say a white-collar criminal who did not pose a physical danger to your child - would you want that child to look up to this person as a role model? Would you want the child to "respect" this person just because he or she is married to the child's parent?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Let me answer your question with a question of my own:

Do you tell your children not to respect their father Nellie?

You still love him even though he cheated on you and left you and your children. What message does THAT send?

And I am NOT judging you, as you know. I am 100% in agreement that you can and do love your ex, as if he were still your husband.

So to me, your question is somewhat moot. I know you'll tell me if my head is up my [censored] on this one.

<small>[ October 22, 2002, 05:27 PM: Message edited by: new_beginning ]</small>

I don't "tell" my kids to respect or not respect someone, because respect is a feeling, not a behavior, imo. Would I think it wise of my kids to look up to my H, in his current state, as a role model? No, of course not. Do I respect the person he has become? Not one bit. However, that has nothing to do with love.

Yes, I still love him after all he has done. The message that that sends is, I believe, that love is permanent and unconditional.

My point, Nellie, is that your children DO LEARN by what YOU do, and emulate you. Don't you agree??? So, no you may not *tell* them how to act or feel, but you do set an example.

When you love their dad in SPITE of what he's done, yes, you are showing unconditional love, but you are ALSO saying that it doesn't matter WHAT he does (moral or not) he's worth loving. Don't you think that *might* send a message that he's worth respecting too?

Again, perhaps I'm reading WAAAAAAY too much into this, but I think it's a valid thought.

By the way - if my ex married his OW, I *would* expect my children to SHOW respect. I can't MAKE anyone respect anyone - and in my opinion, respect is EARNED not just given. Aren't you respectful to some people you DON'T respect??

<small>[ October 22, 2002, 07:10 PM: Message edited by: new_beginning ]</small>