I honestly haven't a clue how someone could be so cruel to the innoocent child, throw rocks at you blaming you for everything, and then have the gall to try to get you to give him money and on top of that want you to sign a lease for him.

I'm just totally speechless, it just don't make sense to me. Seems to me that he's stuck with the 8th grade mentality, trying to manipulate you through perceived guilt. Stay Strong...

I am glad that you updated us as your family has been in my prayers.

Hugs, Thoughts, & Prayers

BTW I can totally relate to the blaming thing. Had the unfortunate luxury of talking to X last night. She has always preached about consiquenses, but has never been able to admit fault or accept blame. So we were finalizing holiday schedules and plans, and things just weren't going her way, so it's my fault our daughter missed her dental appointment while she was with her mother, it's my fault that my girls can't see their cousin (which happens to be on the day my family celebrates Christmas), it's my fault that she hasn't switched days with me for her ski trip and now I want a specific day, it's my fault the sky is blue, and it's my fault for EVERYTHING......

Anyway didn't mean to vent here, just wanted you to know that blame thing doesn't seem to go away with time....

Gosh, what a mess. Dont let this man bully you into feeling sorry for him. He is no longer the man you fell in love with & married. You could have turned yourself inside out for him & it wouldnt have mattered. He's gonna do what he wants to do.

Alot of what you mentioned in this thread sounds like my H, but mine was more subtle in the sympathy ploys, and never asked me for money cause he makes twice what I do. But after moving out he would do the sad puppy dog routine like he didnt have any dishes, clock radio etc & it killed me inside. I would cry when he would leave. But he told alot of lies & treated me awful, shunning me & basically abandoning me. Last year was pure hell. This yr we barely spoke though living under same roof til this October.

Keep yourself legally separate from your H. Dont sign any lease or promise him a penny. Seems like you are in a modified plan B? Stay that way. My H also twisted the last 10 yrs of our marriage into something horrible, something it wasnt & twists EVERYTHING so awfully to somehow make it MY fault!! ANd they have said these things so much I think they start believing their own lies. Your husband got himself into this mess, now let him dig himself out. He is the only one who can change and its for sure he doesnt want to. He just wants the money. I have told myself if H really wanted our marriage, he would do WHATEVER IT TOOK to make it work. He didnt. Just lied & lied. And clearly yours is lying too. You saw him at place with OW. Dont ever let him doubt yourself & what you have seen & know.

My H came back after being gone 6 weeks & filing this time last year! I was so relieved & happy . .. for about 3 days! Then I found him in parked at OW's place and her at his apartment hiding behind bedroom door when he went there "to pack" & I paid a surprise visit when he had forgotten I knew where he lived!!
We own a house together & I began to suspect he only came back to fix it up more & convince me to sell it or drive me crazy so that I would be the one to file against HIM and move out. I did neither. I stuck out the misery. I decided nope, if this is what he wants, then for once in his life he can take responsability for his own actions & not be able to blame me. My suspicions were confirmed when this Sept/OCt after I went back to work from surgery, he kept telling me "I want my share" (house equity). I do think now though, he will sign it over to me, as original papers a year ago said too.

So dont allow yourself to hope beyond hope that its for the right reasons he wants back. Its not. He has said he cant promise you he wont see OW. I got told that!! I asked H to promise no contact though he denied anything with her he told me I coulnd not dictate anything to him & he would see her whenever & whereever he wanted, yet he "had nothing to do with that woman". AARGH!

Take each day at a time. Try not to dwell on the fact that your son doesn't see his father. Its only biological these days! I told my friend that men are like garbage disposals, they're generally in one place without moving & you put food in them a few times a day!! Sorry to all the males here, but I was referring to my husband and some of my friends husbands. (friends are stay at home moms who do all the cooking, cleaning etc & guys come home 6PM & turn into stationary objects where they put food!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Be glad you have your parents to count on for support these days. Mine are deceased & I am only child.

Are you Irish? I grew up in Tralee.
Hang in there!
CLG.

LH & ATW

I can't understand how he could GO so Low,he still has not come for a visit with his son.He stopped by after going to his lawyers,which is a mile away.Because he wanted to reschedule the assessment WED.He had just gotten his forms to fill out and was not ready.
I told him No!
He told me he found a room(studio appartment)downtown....then left.
Yes I'm in a modified plan B,I talked to my lawyer and she said I have nothing to worry about..BUT STILL I'm worrying about wed.Please keep us in your prayers...it won't be easy being in the same room as him and dealing with his woes is me personality!
Alot of wierd things have been going on last night at 4am we heard a knock at our back door.Some guy in his 20's was drunk or on something he kept knocking and we had to call the police..it wasn't Ken but could have been a friend of his.
We live in a safe part of town too,it was very weird!
Then Ken left a message on my cell,both OW are fighting over him and he wished that they would leave him alone.And he was just calling to talk..I didn't call him back!
He's not the least bit concerned to ask about our son.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
Come Wed I have to be Very Strong,and cannot bend an inch no matter what comes out of his mouth!!
I guess the blaming has to stem from guilt,if not guilt then they believe there own selfishness/and lies!
ATW
We have alittle Irish in us,I love Irish names!!
Thank you for sharing your story with me....I'm afraid the man I once knew is LONG GONE..Maybe I never really knew him!
Each year he gets worse and worse and more childish,and truly makes selfish choices.There is more in this World then Him <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

hi im new to this site.My story is the usual. love marriage for 8yrs. abondoned last 2yrs. found out he been cheating for last 3mths. have a daughter 8yrs old. tried to make things work. bk just doesnt feel remorseful and still wz mistress. i asked him to choose n he chose her. now i dont know how to start legal action n what i shd ask for my child. he hasn't help wz cash for last 2 yrs. what are my legal rights?/ please help and advise. im hurting and confused what to do.....

Maria K
((HUGS)) Welcome to marriage builders..read read read...there's alot of info here! I'm sorry you are going through this <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> .
I would talk to a lawyer,and see what laws your state has....you need to get child support! And is he helping with bills are you living together?
Don't be scared you have alot of rights,and everyone here is super nice.
Update when you can K!!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> HI guys! I'm feeling much better about WED,Please keep us still in prayers if ya could.Last night WS came for visitation with son,and he seems like he really wants to step up to the plate.BUT WE'LL SEE....
He even asked to, well begged on his hands and knees to go to counseling,even asking to remarry me if we have to end up getting divorced!
Personally I'm not buying it,he's trying to get me to be nice on wed and not bring anything up..he knows he's screwed <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
He said it was over with both OW...WE'LL SEE,he has his own little studio apartment so How would I know anyway!?
Will see what friend of the court does,I don't want to take Kieran away from his dad,BUT HIS dad has to prove he's responsible before he takes him anywhere!!
And hopefully friend of the court will agree!!
It was soooooooo amazing to see WS,SO upset begging to go into counsling..and he didn't bring up money this time <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> wow,but..we'll see what actions he's going to take,cause he knows i'm not bending come WED!!

oHH forgot to add I found out what he did Thanksgiving him and the OW went out to dinner.And spent the day together thats why he didn't see his son!!

He asked me what we were doing for Christmas and asked me to come to his aunts with Kieran christmas eve.....I wouldn't feel comfortable should i go!?

He also said it hurt ow for him to break up with them but he did so because he had to fallow his heart <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

What do I do take him up on the counsling of course I would have to pay for it?

I guess you could figure out a counseling thing, even if not to save the marriage, to help you get thru this. The test would be to see if your H would go to more than one session. My guess is that he would drop out very quickly, saying he was fine & didnt need it. Mine went to individual like 3 times & dropped out telling me his counselor said he didnt need any help!! They NEVER say that. He also refused antidepressants. The counselor sent him to a psychiatrist for consultation that first day!! so something must be up with him!!

I found out more details. His affair with OW is still going on strong, in fact they are spending tremendous amounts of time together at each others places & she involves her child too! She has joint custody with ex and he is pissed. She even threatened to spank the kid if he told dad anything about my H being there!!! ANd my H comes to me telling me he wants to to show him how to cook again cause he's forgotten how and drawing on my sympathy bigtime. And I feel bad for him and sorry for him every time! He has adamently denied anyuthing to do with OW & makes me doubt all I have seen & heard for myself!! Its going on strong with them. And yet he stops by on weekends for sympathy from me like its sad -but oh well it just didnt work out- attitude - like I am somehow to blame for this!! Fought with me & defended OW's name almost violently & yet he carries on with her! AARGH! And I still dont hate him.

But my doubt grows more & more that he would come home with a true & honest heart & a promise that he made a terrible mistake & there'll be no contact with her! I dont see that happening now. He probably thinks he can come back to the house & live as he did this last year, never coming home except to sleep & lie to me & treat me so badly. I dont think so . . .not this time!! But it is tremendously hard to remind myself what he has done in my mind. I cannot let him have it! until the divorce is final or he'll fight & be a monster with me again. When its all said & done & cant be changed - then I'm gonna let it rip. Unless he is remorseful & behaves as above, but I think that will happen when hell freezes over!!

Good Luck tommorrow. Stand Tall. Picture the dork naked and squirming. Better yet, picture him with OW and be mad enough inside to stay strong on the outside!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My guess is that he would drop out very quickly, saying he was fine & didnt need it. Mine went to individual like 3 times & dropped out telling me his counselor said he didnt need any help!! They NEVER say that. He also refused antidepressants. The counselor sent him to a psychiatrist for consultation that first day!! so something must be up with him!!

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think so too!! Today he acted more foggy,he told me sending a letter to both OW was mean and that he would deal with it,and I would never see or hear of them talking or seeing each other again.
I don't buy it!!!
He did ask if I would do something with him this weekend go out to one of his nightclubs he put a sound system in.
I don't feel READY to hang out with him yet,counsling must start first...But I still can't trust him.He asked if we could put the divorce on hold and remain seperated legally.

I think my STBXH will pull the samething I don't need any help...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I found out more details. His affair with OW is still going on strong, in fact they are spending tremendous amounts of time together at each others places & she involves her child too! She has joint custody with ex and he is pissed. She even threatened to spank the kid if he told dad anything about my H being there!!! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">THATS AWFUL WHAT A BAD MOM!! oHH MY GOSH,I would report her...ohh my goodness!
Is WS still saying he's not doing anything with her,when you have solid proof!?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> ANd my H comes to me telling me he wants to to show him how to cook again cause he's forgotten how and drawing on my sympathy bigtime. And I feel bad for him and sorry for him every time! He has adamently denied anyuthing to do with OW & makes me doubt all I have seen & heard for myself!! Its going on strong with them. And yet he stops by on weekends for sympathy from me like its sad -but oh well it just didnt work out- attitude - like I am somehow to blame for this!! Fought with me & defended OW's name almost violently & yet he carries on with her! AARGH! And I still dont hate him.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow that sound alot like my situation <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But it is tremendously hard to remind myself what he has done in my mind. I cannot let him have it! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thats a hard one forsure! Stand strong <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Well let me just tell ya Friend of the court is a joke,AT LEAST THE PERSON WHO WE HAD WAS.
We walked in the office he had Burger King on his desk papers all over the place.
He read both of our paperwork,and said we can come to an agreement here,or if we don't here you'll have someone who makes the final say and if you don't like that then you go to trial.
Aghhhh! I was very unhappy nothing like a guy with no morals and my ws next to me.
I said "Sir our son is an 18 month old baby who still wakes up at night"! Ken has no car insurance a studio apartment,uses drugs,has had affairs.
He just looked at me and said well your son is too young to notice the affairs.

Soooooooo this is the visitation,Ken drives our son to his place everyother sunday from 9am-6pm
And every monday 9am-5pm.
And they wanted me to agree to more time!!!!!!
I said no way lets see if Ken exercises this out first,he has to do drug tests too along with keeping OW away from son until he gets engaged or remarries.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Not at all WHAT I WAS HOPING FOR...But this is a Tempory order!

Betrayed,

Saw your picture by the way, you and your son make a beautiful family. I think you are about the same age as me. mid to late 20's? When I read your posts I felt like I was reading about some of my situation as well. I have a little boy as well. Just so many similarities, that I felt compelled to write.

Your soon to be x sounds so much like my H it is scary. The blaming, drug use, irresponsible behavior, and manipulation. All exactly how my H is as well.

He is trying to really manipulate you and make you feel guilty. Pulling out every piece of garbage he can. I really admire you for the steps you have taken. I hope I will be there some day.

Don't let him pull you down. Suck you back into that manipulation and the lies. He has made his bed and he needs to lie in it. My H also had parents that never made him take responsibilities for his actions so he grew up to be an irresponsible adult that goes around blaming all his problems on everyone else, especially me. You are doing the right thing in taking him to court and in making him suffer the financial difficulties. HE DID THIS TO HIMSELF! Don't feel guilty or sorry for him. Maybe this is the wake up call he needs!

As far as the court issue. This is my fear as well. The whole custody and visitation issue. I think though that he is all talk and no action. He probably won't even show up based on his past behavior.

As far as worrying about the affect on your son. I think that fortunately for that little cutie he has one sound and responsible parent there for him. You seem very able to step up and be both mom and dad to him. Someday you'll meet someone that will treat you right and be a role model to your son that you can be proud of. His father just can't seem to do that right now and who knows if he ever will.

Take care and have a nice holiday season.

betrayed, sorry to jump in so late. Even though my WH and I are twice as old as you and your H, my WH sounds like an older version of your H, notice from my signature line that the OW is close to your age - and my WH thinks she's mature...

I think someone, GIIC?, already suggested Al-Anon to you. I'd like to strongly second that recommendation. Al-Anon is a godsend for those dealing with living with drug and/or alcohol abuse.

Your H sounds like a typical drug/alcohol abuser Dr. Jekkyl and Mr. Hyde personality. He will do whatever he can to get what he needs and he'll try to make you feel responsible. Right now he probably isn't even capable of loving you because he obviously doesn't love himself. You know his other side and can't understand what's happened to him. There's really nothing to understand because it's all part of the disease of addiction.

Sounds like you're doing a really good job of maintaining your boundaries, but it's hard,especially when you have a child together. Continue to do what you have to to take care of yourself and your son.

Saw your picture by the way, you and your son make a beautiful family. I think you are about the same age as me. mid to late 20's? When I read your posts I felt like I was reading about some of my situation as well. I have a little boy as well. Just so many similarities, that I felt compelled to write.

Yes I'm 25...my little guy is now 19 months!
Time sure does fly by <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
I'm glad you wrote!!
I would love to here your story,are you in plan B or A or are you divorcing?

Your soon to be x sounds so much like my H it is scary. The blaming, drug use, irresponsible behavior, and manipulation. All exactly how my H is as well.

His parents have really helped with the blame game for him.In high school it was the teachers where picking on there son if he got a detention!
At work,he deserves a better pay-they have even gone so far as to call his employer to stick up for him!
WS has been on Pot since 15 off and on,before we married he had stopped for 2 yrs.Unless he hid it from me and then found it hidden in our place along with porn.Manipulation,he's learned how to Beleive in his own lies....it's hard to stand up for yourself when you have a master at Manipulation.
Any advice on come backs <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I try to speak the truth back to him when he opens his mouth and says something.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He is trying to really manipulate you and make you feel guilty. Pulling out every piece of garbage he can. I really admire you for the steps you have taken. I hope I will be there some day.

Aww thank you...you know when you can't take it anymore.I think the breaking point was him bringing OW#2 over to our place kissing her and saying I was his ex-wife,when I hadn't even filed yet.He was soooo deeply in the fog then,still is in the fog it's just patchy now!
I was to the point that I was sick not sleeping,I was so unhappy he shoved every infidelity in my face like hahaha look what I'm doing! I can still get women,look at me!!
Now child support and living on his own is hard,he liked having me to cook, clean ,watch his son, and bring home extra money so he could go blow it on the newest Mac Computer or studio recording gear.
I still think in side the man I once knew,is in there...somewhere,but his love has turned very Conditional! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
There's still this pull of emotions when I see him,he tries to hug and kiss me now.
But I feel like he's dirty after all the images of him and the OW.
It's very hard inside I want to(even though I know I shouldn't),but when he tries to kiss me I just turn my head I can't even look into his eyes!
Then I say to myself he's just a BIG FLIRT(WHICH HE IS)and I mean nothing to him!

Don't let him pull you down. Suck you back into that manipulation and the lies. He has made his bed and he needs to lie in it. My H also had parents that never made him take responsibilities for his actions so he grew up to be an irresponsible adult that goes around blaming all his problems on everyone else, especially me. You are doing the right thing in taking him to court and in making him suffer the financial difficulties. HE DID THIS TO HIMSELF! Don't feel guilty or sorry for him. Maybe this is the wake up call he needs!

I won't let him sucker any money or sex out of me.
He's a smooth talker,thats forsure <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
Ohhh AS we were walking downtown to the Friend of the Court Building.This guy asked WS for a light for his cigerette.And then said "Wow,your girlfriend is very pretty!"
I said thank you!
It was soooooooo FUNNY,I wanted to say well too bad he couldn't keep his [censored] in his pants.
I just bit my tough and WS didn't even say anything!
I hope he is getting a wake up call,sometimes I see him at his low points where it looks like it could be sinking in.Then he does something arrogant and his I think I'm cool side comes back.

I think though that he is all talk and no action. He probably won't even show up based on his past behavior.

I think so too,I write all the visits down..if he doesn't come to pick his son up, or is 3 hours late.We'll go back to friend of the court.

Someday you'll meet someone that will treat you right and be a role model to your son that you can be proud of. His father just can't seem to do that right now and who knows if he ever will

Ohh THAT would be wonderful,it almost seems to good to be true!

You too have a wonderful CHRISTMAS!!! AND NEW YEAR!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> posted November 18, 2002 06:27 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mary,

I am afraid that I think that he sees you as the only way that he can stay in town, and therefor is saying what he thinks will get him what he wants. Just like the others who hear "We need to separate in order to get back together." Or "Perhaps after the divorce we can start over." It is pure manipulation in my opinion and I hope that you don't fall for it. If it is important to him then he would find a way to get the money by working himself. It obviously isn't, but staying in his current lifestyle is important, so who better to get money from than someone that he thinks he can manipulate by saying 'possibilities'. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mary,

Remember on Nov 18, we wrote about what we expected him to say and do. Here, less than a month later, it is all coming true, exactly as we discussed. You will have to stay strong and have long term indisputable proof otherwise you WILL be hurt again, and much worse than before, because you will have set yourself up, knowing the likely outcome.

Don't change a thing. Stay with your plan. If he is really wanting this, 6 months or a year from now he will only be stronger and working harder for your family. If he doesn't, he will never be able to stick it out for that long, and you will know. You are far to young to saddle yourself with a liar and cheater. Even a year, although it seems so long now, is nothing compared to the pain of the next few years trying over and over again with someone who lacks dedication and concern.

Stay strong, please. Do not think that this is the end. If he is serious then keep him at arms length until he has proven it over and over again.

My opinion is that he is not. He might even believe it himself for a few moments when he is talking with you, but deep down, he is not going to change, at least not for a while. You need to keep your distance and either allow that to happen or allow yourself time to grow apart.

Take care. We are here.

Hi Betrayed

I am 28 with a 2 year old. Plan A/ Plan B? Well it doesn't seem to be a plan anything right now.

My H issues is that he never spends time with me or the little guy. He always has to work and then after work instead of coming home he hangs out at his friends houses and waltzes in when he feels like it.

Immature and selfish. It is kind of difficult to work on a marriage when your spouse is never home. I have been keeping tabs on him and tracking him trying to see if he is cheating, but it seems right now that he is just more interested in acting like the single guy able to hang out and play playstation or smoke pot.

Uggh!!! His other huge issue is compulsive lying and blaming like your STBX. He lies about everything under the sun and I have to admit I have zero trust in him. He also tends to be pretty verbal abusive at times when we are arguing. Says horrible things to me and then later denies he said it or acts like nothing happened at all.

Right now I'm just trying to focus on my son and myself. Divorce is most likely in my future, but I am not ready yet. I want to have all my finances organized and wait til my son is a little older. My H has threatened to try and take him away if I go for a divorce. So that threat has kept me at a stand still for now. My son means everything to me. Even the thought of having to hand him over for visitation upsets me. My H hangs out with some loser friends that I wouldn't want him exposed to.

I remember one time I had to go to work for a little while and he was babysitting our 1 year old at the time. When I got home he was obviously stoned and when I confronted him on it he flat out denied it. Said he just went by his friends for a few minutes and then they came home. I found out from the friend's girlfriend, that he came over with my son and dumped him on her, while he went somewhere to smoke pot with his friend. So after that I tried to always have a grandparent watch him if I needed to go somewhere.

So for now I am just trying to enjoy being a mom and let H destroyed what is left of our marriage. I have tried to talk some sense into him, everyone has, but he just wants to live his life and the hell with us. Oh, well. I should have known, everyone warned me about him. Love is blind, but marriage is a real wake up call. You really understand at that point what kind of qualities you should have been looking for in a boyfriend/spouse. Someday I will hopefully have another opportunity to make better choices or maybe my H will be struck by lighting and suddenly become a prince charming.

Thanks for asking to know my story. I'll be watching how your story develops. I mostly post over on Emotional Needs board. But I'll pop over hear to see how everyone's doing. Take care. Happy holidays.

(((( Mary )))))

Document, Document, DOCUMENT.....

As you said these are temporary orders but unless you show cause the time could be increased. On the same note if you show just cause to decrease times then you may have a valid arguement if you have documentation...

What time he shows up, Whose car he's using, What time he drops off, Whose car he's using, or if you do the transport, notice the state of his surroundings. Missed visitations. Condition of clothing baby when returned (like if he always comes back dirty and unchanged)

After being divorced almost 2 years, I still document EVERYTHING, including all telephone conversations.

With the grace of God, I will never have to open by books but if I do, I'm ready for court.

Best of luck to ya and have a great weekend..

Hugs, Thoughts, & Prayers

my WH sounds like an older version of your H, notice from my signature line that the OW is close to your age - and my WH thinks she's mature...

LetSTry....ohh my what is he thinking!?What's she thinking..I shake my head everytime i hear about someone dating/marrying someone that could be there child..LOL
Whats scary is My STBXH....Has such a split personality and manipulates soooo much,I truly think he will never change! And if I stayed he would walk away on me my next pregnancy,or when he see's fit.
He went from insucure....to women falling at his feet...he likes being free.

Your H sounds like a typical drug/alcohol abuser Dr. Jekkyl and Mr. Hyde personality. He will do whatever he can to get what he needs and he'll try to make you feel responsible. Right now he probably isn't even capable of loving you because he obviously doesn't love himself. You know his other side and can't understand what's happened to him. There's really nothing to understand because it's all part of the disease of addiction.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Thats it right there!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You will have to stay strong and have long term indisputable proof otherwise you WILL be hurt again, and much worse than before, because you will have set yourself up, knowing the likely outcome.

Don't change a thing. Stay with your plan. If he is really wanting this, 6 months or a year from now he will only be stronger and working harder for your family. If he doesn't, he will never be able to stick it out for that long, and you will know. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">FC
My X IS ALL TALK...and this week has been very hard on me in alot of ways.
1. I know he'll never change and I have to accept that.
2. I have to move on and not look back,very hard thing to do when you still love the old person.
3.Looking at my son...I feel so bad for him,I know I'm a great mom,but I feel awful that he has to go through this.

An update:

X and thats what i'm calling him now(or the Devil). Vowed and begged to go into counsling,and he was giving up both OW...AS i posted before,even as far as saying he wanted to put the Divorce on hold!
His cell is turned back on now and he is moved into his new crap hole.
He claimed he was not talking to them.
Lie One....checked voice mail OW#2 was on it.
VERY FLIRTY~
"Hey you freak,I miss you..I don't care if your feeling sick tonight and we can't go out.I'll come over and we can cuddle and hold each other.I've been looking forward to this I miss you!"

Now this OW#2 He said they have never done anything other then kiss.This is the one he brought over to our home!!
He also said he was done recording her,he said this a week ago.
Now he claims he just needs alittle more time,and that the Voice Mail from her was to piss me off!
He claims he told her I was checking his vm and she wanted to upset me!

All a bunch of crap HE'S A LIAR <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Tonight I went off on him over the phone.
He thinks we should go slow on the counsling,like wait a month <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />
Told me that I shouldn't ask him any questions about how he ended it with both OW <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> (WE KNOW HE NEVER ENDED IT!)
He was getting scared because I expected too much from him,and he warned me if I didn't go with the flow it would give him a reason to go back with the ow...that he claims he's not seeing that I knoe he is.Cause I caught him in lie after lie!!!!
He even used one of the girls dads trucks to move his stuff...he's not done with them!
He's a lost case what a waist of a person!!
He tryed to bring me into his ring of women,he's evil what he's put his family thru is Pure Hell <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />
He was worried also about hurting the Ow's feelings,when was he worried about mine when I was puking and crying myself to sleep...I believe this Demon my Ex Wants to pull me so down.
He would have thought nothing if I would have killed myself(which I would never do) It's like he ENJOYS THE RIDE OF HURTING PEOPLE!

I'm worn out i'm not apart of his ride no more.I just PRAY GOD SENDS THE MAN HE PICKED OUT FOR ME!
I want to live life a normal life with my best friend have babies travel....love and be loved,i'm just so sad so lonely it probly doesn't help I have no life on top of this.
Everyone I know is on there 2-4 child and is married.

<img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> What a week

Mary, unfortunately, you are right, he has not changed, this is just a scam because he is not getting his way. Hang tough.
Dave