I was posting on the emotional needs forum, but I don't think my negativity is helping anyone over there who is really trying to make the marriage work. I don't mean to be so negative, I am hopeful that my marriage can be saved. I do still love my H (separated in in MC) But this problem I have with our son is causing me to think twice about "what I really want"

On the emotional needs forum, I posted the following in response to a topic about H and children not picking up after themselves.

"I can relate to what you are saying. This is a very "sore subject" for me, too. The above advice is wonderful, but what I see in your post is that H is a big part of the problem. Sure, we can work on organization, enlist help of the kids and so on, but what about "cleaning up after H" I have/had a big problem with that, also. Why should I, an adult, have to clean up after another adult? And IMO, it's hard to teach kids this responsibility when their dad can't/won't do it. I even had the problem of trying to teach my son, who was about 8 or 9 at the time, to pick after himself and I asked H to remind him on evenings I wasn't home. My H would say to my son "Son, pick up your sh*t so I don't have to get *****ed at" This, naturally, encouraged disrespect of my son towards me. (which seems to continue on) My H would not pick up his dirty dishes, newspapers, trash, mail, etc. consistently. He might do it for a few days, then he'd quit again. He really fought the "rinsing of dishes" and he NEVER wiped off the countertop after fixing lunch. Why can't a grown man do these things? I don't even think this is an "emotional need" for me. It was just asking for common decency and to set an example for the children. I wouldn't want my children going to a friends house and leaving their messes all around."

And then I posted the following in regard to my situation with my son:

"Thanks for your reply to me, zuzus. I am sorry to come on to your post and start in on my own problems. I am thinking that I am probably in the wrong place to be so "down" on my marriage. My attitude isn't really good for building.

No, I don't want to spank, but I have slapped him. I think it made him angrier, not more respectful. I don't know how to undo the damage. I didn't even realize the amount of the damage until now. Yes, he just started counseling. C said he has depression and is highly stressed. Recommends medication. I don't want him on medication. I want to find other ways of treating.

Currently, my H and I are in counseling, too. My H says he wonders why son is like that with just me. Some things clicked in my head when H and I were talking last week. H makes comments to me like "all boys act like that, especially when dad is not in the house", "all boys are angry at their mother when she leaves the dad", "mothers always have a hard time controlling their sons", "all mothers get their way in a divorce"
IMO, (and I may be overreacting) my son is brainwashed. My H's negative, pessimistic attitude is wearing off on our son. My son has a very bad attitude about women in general. My H reinforces his bad feelings. Already in 5th grade, his heart has been broken by a couple girls, and my H tells son thats the way women are. Funny thing is, my son prefers being with his dad. and he does NOT want us to get back together. I am trying to work with my H, hoping things will get better, but in reality, I think I am fighting a losing battle. H is loving to me face to face, but behind my back, I believe he still spreads the poison. He may actually think he is just protecting our son. ???

I should probably keep my negativity off of this forum. Maybe I should go over to "divorced, divorcing"

Thanks for your input. I really appreciate it."

I really need some advice on what to do. It is breaking my heart. I feel like my son is in pain and I am alienated. I do think it is PAS, it's just so suttle that it's hard to see. Any advice/feedback is greatly appreciated.

((((((((Janemh))))))

Your post left me a bit confused as to what the situation and the history of events are. However, I do believe that a lot of the behavior is natural and then of course there is the behavior that is rooted through your husbands words and actions.

First off, I would say that if the Counselor recommends meds, I would definitely look into that. Second, as I went through my divorce I saw a similar thing with my 3 daughters. At first, they took on a “Men are TOYS” attitude that coincided with the life style that their mother was living. But through my consistency and modeling of behavior those attitudes went by the way side. Sure it took some time and a lot of sleepless nights were spent in deep thought but they did see through their mom’s facade.

About the other parent “trash talking” behind your back. My X is usually pretty good about doing it loud enough for everyone to hear and it gets old. Children are smart and they will see the truth. I don’t let that bother me anymore because I know that my X is full of BS and every time she opens her mouth to talk trash my daughters are becoming more aware of how full of BS she is. The old phrase about giving a person enough rope to hang themselves applies.

Now my girls are more comfortable and happy being a family at Dad’s house rather than playing family at mom’s.

Best of luck to you.

Hugs Thoughts & Prayers

Lost Husband-thanks for your response. I realize my post may have been a bit confusing. and it does sound like you experience sort of the same thing.

My H and I are currently separated (since 6/02) The problem I am having right now is difficulty with my son, 10's behavior. And quite frankly, I think his behavior and attitudes are almost identical to his dad's. H and I have a lot of problems with co-parenting. Between he and I, there was a lot of emotional abuse, drug abuse, rages and negativity on his part. Emotional withdrawl and ultimately emotional neglect on my part.

We have a daughter, 15 and a son, 10 together. I know that throughout the years, he has treated the kids like confidants and told them his "side" every time we had a fight. He refused to believe that this caused emotional stress on the children. Earlier this year, he did the silent treatment with our daughter when he was upset with her and it lasted about 5 months. Devastated her! We separated.

After a lot of introspection, I realized where I was to blame. Acknowledged this to him. Apologized. I still had hope that we could salvage this with the help of counseling which we are now attending. Even if we do not make it, I have hopes that counseling will help him see the damage he does/has done to the kids.

Right now, as I said above, my son and I are not doing well together. He can be very loving at times, but when he gets stressed or angry, he reacts just like his dad always has. with angry outbursts, cursing, and by saying mean things. He also is not doing well in school and is isolating himself from friends. I am sooo concerned. H tells son this is all normal. He is NOT depressed, does NOT need help (in spite of what counselor says) H tells me (and I believe he tells son) that boys always have problems with their mom in a divorce/separation situation. Like I said, my H reinforces sons bad feelings about things, telling him it's normal. I believe the feelings my son has may be normal, but the way he handles things is not acceptable. At my home or regarding school.

2 months ago, I thought I still loved my husband and that it might work. I am thinking more and more that we just cannot live in the same house with all this. I know my son could be acting out towards me for something I have done (although I don't know for sure what it is, he won't tell me anything) I just don't know what to do. I keep wishing my husband would change. He has in some ways. He has better control of his temper, but in others, he hasn't, nor does he want to. What can I do?

BTW-our daughter has been diagnosed bipolar and our son has been diagnosed with depression and anxiety. Now, I am no doctor, but I think that years and years of all this drama may be a contributing factor??? There is also a strong genetic history on H's side of the family.

A & D has left many problems for our 13 1/2 yr old son. Dr. says he has aggression against police(X) & nurses (OW). What we do in life does effect our kids. I dont believe kids adjust to D, it will effect them later in life. son out look on females were that you cant trust them. nurses sleep with policemen who are M.never trust a policeman, everytime we see one he makes remarks about them. The same about nurses, they all sleep around and dont want their kids. lies X told our son about me backfired on him. The truth comes out sooner or later. X couldnt keep track of all the lies he told, it became easy to see through him. son couldnt take the mental abuse from dad & his family anymore, we moved.son does not want to see his dad anymore or his family. Maybe in time he will forgive them. son is attending a christian school it has helped him. You need to think about your child, do you want him growing up begin just like dad. I loved my X but it was taking a toll on both me & my son. My son meant more to me than H, I let H go to MOW. I didnt want that kind of life for my child. We are happy now, not much money but we have each other. We say we love you to each other. Son kisses me on the cheek & tells me he loves me. Before D, our son said he was too old to kiss him or hug. my child wants a stable happy home. X couldnt give that. Hearing from friends & OW X about X new lifestyle I know I made the right choice.

m-17 yrs, 9mts, 12 days
x-43 Me-48
c-13, 29, 8gd
d-5-02

OW-32
c-3 small
d-7-02
M-10 yrs

myfamily-that is wonderful! I am so happy for you that things are turning out well. I sometimes think that the best thing for my son would be to not be around dad. But that won't happen. My H would never let it. In a way, they have a good time together. they're into motorcycle racing together. They watch it a lot on TV too. H buys son almost anything he wants. Doesn't make him do much around the house/farm. Lets him use "language" Doesn't check to make sure he did homework. No bedtime. Still lets son sleep with him. All kinds of "great" things. My son likes being there. H is sort of racist, and to son, that's more fun than what the Bible teaches. they enjoy complaining and being negative together. and they bash women together, too. H thinks he is protecting son from getting hurt. teaching him not to get to close to anyone. To me, that will prevent him from ever feeling true love, too. Perhaps my H's barriers kept me at arm's length??

Anyway, I am going on and on. I guess I could be overreacting, but I can't seem to feel any other way about this. To me, it seems harmful to a child. To me, it seems like common sense. Am I wrong?

So how is your 15yo doing in school and how is her relationship now with her father? And how is her relationship with you?

When we split my then 9yo went through a tough time with acceptance and reached out for help in many the same fashions that you speak of. I got my girls into counseling and worked close with the counselor to try and create the best environment possible. Their counselor gave me some great advice that I used one time.

This happened about 5 months after separation when the girls were helping me move from our family home into a smaller place. Anyway I had asked my 9yo to help with something and her mouth started spouting. Just like you, I saw my X’s words coming out. As calm as can be I stopped, looked her in the eyes and said “9yo I know this is hard on you, I’m sorry, and I love you”. Immediately we both broke into tears and had a truly great moment together. I think this worked because this took all the pressure off of her and validated her feelings. Validating their feelings at this age is extremely important. Your sons whole world has been destroyed and all he is guilty of is wanting to love his mother and father. Add to that the fact that atleast one side is brain washing him and he see’s his childhood flying out the window. I mean it’s got to be hell on earth for him.

Another thing that I felt necessary to do for my girls was to show them that women and men could be friends without being lovers. Again, they saw one thing at mom’s and I gave them an alternative at my house. It’s a difficult balancing act. I also got really involved with my church so that they could see other female adult role models and see how they treat people.

Not that I’m dating, but I’ve also found it to be necessary to shield my children from any emotional relationships I have. I guess I’m just saying that it is tough and you really have to read your children and read them often to try and get a grasp on what is going through their minds. Experiment with some different things, and when something works go with it until it doesn’t work and then try something different.

lost husband-you know, you sound like an awesome dad! A guy who will do what is best for his children no matter what.

My daughter barely speaks to my H. She has no bad feelings, but does not really care to see him. She has not spent one night with him since I moved. She occassionally talks to him on the phone. She feels like he was not there for her when she needed him most and she doesn't feel he is someone she can count on. She and I get along quite well most of the time. She is very loving towards me. She used to be with dad, too, right up until the incident this year and then he seemed to hate her. (in her words) She is a sophmore in high school but has not attended this year. Her doctor put her on meds again in September and his recommendation was that she not go to school until she was stable. (very serious depression episode) she now attends an alternative high school very part time. Her condition is improving.

"I’ve also found it to be necessary to shield my children from any emotional relationships I have" I believe that is a very good idea. My H doesn't. Very shortly after our separation, he developed an emotional relationship with someone. My son was right in the middle of it in spite of my asking that he not be. She was nice. My son formed a friendship with her. (she was closer to son's age than H's. H is 36, she is 21) Anyway, she promised to burn a CD for my son. He was excited about this. But when we started counseling, he ended it with her. Son hasn't talked to her either. And he was let down. No CD. H thinks he is helping son by exposing him to EVERYTHING. Remember, he told son "his side" ever since he was a very little boy. My son has "adult worries" No wonder he spends very little time with his friends. His childhood has been robbed.

Do you think I am overreacting? I sometimes feel like all the time and energy I put into counseling w/H and reading on MB, etc. should be put towards my children. Forget my "marriage" right now. I am overwhelmed. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

&#8220;&#8221;&#8221;lost husband-you know, you sound like an awesome dad! A guy who will do what is best for his children no matter what. &#8220;&#8221;&#8221;&#8221;&#8221;

Thank you. You know it really is amazing how your views change post divorce when your children are the one and only thing in your life besides yourself and your relationship with the Lord.

&#8221;&#8221;&#8221;My daughter barely speaks to my H. She feels like he was not there for her when she needed him most and she doesn't feel he is someone she can count on.&#8221;&#8221;&#8221;

That&#8217;s sad. Growing up with that void in her life could lead to some issues down the road. It sounds like she is under a Dr&#8217;s care and in counseling, which is a good thing.

&#8221;&#8221;&#8221;My son has "adult worries" No wonder he spends very little time with his friends. His childhood has been robbed.&#8221;&#8221;&#8221;

It&#8217;s taken me almost a year and a half to convince my 13yo that it&#8217;s ok to be a kid. She wants desperately to just be a 13yo kid but was forced to deal with grown up issues at a young age. She took the brunt of the divorce from her mom and when the kids were at mom&#8217;s the 13 yo was placed in the mothering role. So to balance the scale I had to ensure that she had ample opportunity to be a kid at my house. Some people thought that I was being to easy on her and stuff like that. But as I look at her now and watch her interact with kids her age again and watch her play and do stupid stuff, I know that I did the right thing.

&#8221;&#8221;&#8221;&#8221;Do you think I am overreacting? I sometimes feel like all the time and energy I put into counseling w/H and reading on MB, etc. should be put towards my children. Forget my "marriage" right now. I am overwhelmed.&#8221;&#8221;&#8221;&#8221;

You are the only one that can answer this. I mean in an ideal society children would come with two loving parents that stay married. But we don&#8217;t live in that utopia, so we have to make do with what we have. I say you work on yourself. Work on the traits that you have that are unattractive to you. Become happy and content with yourself. Thrust yourself into your children&#8217;s lives and be the best mom that you can be. Continue to get educated on their conditions and put measures in place to foster the best possible lifestyle for them. If your marriage is going to work, these things are going to have to be done first anyway. The biggest obstacle that I see right now is &#8220;Patience&#8221;.

With all that being said, I think I've hogged your thread enough and I'll let some more of the experts jump in.

Hugs, Thoughts, & Prayers