Hi everybody! This is my first post in this forum. I was a semi-reg in GQII about a year and a half ago when I was the BS with a WW. These days I am doing very well, and my D is going to be final any day. If you'd like a little more info, you can check out this link and scroll down to my post about midway down.

Since D-Day, I've taken all the time I've needed for myself to reflect on my life and where I want it to go from here. I've tried to understand what led to not only my previous marriage's demise but the marriage itself. I purposefully did not date anyone with the exception of one girl who I saw some last Christmas. I wanted to keep it very light -- she wanted much more, and it did not last very long.

About a month and a half ago (well over a year of separation and pending D), I started talking to someone new who I would see occasionally. She and I seemed to get along really well, and I started to want to get together as friends some time to hang out and get to know each other better. We finally were able to do this after Thanksgiving, and over the course of the last month, we've been out several times and have grown very fond of each other. It sound so cliché, but we just click on so many different things, it's amazing. She is a wonderful person and I really enjoy spending time with her.

The reason for this post is not me -- I'm ready to date again. My new friend has just in the past few months decided to become separated from her H and is herself moving towards a D. She had come to this decision on her own, before I entered the equation. She's told me that she had many months of introspection and put forth an honest effort to try to save her marriage, but the effort was not matched by her H. She's a very independent, very self-sufficient person, and once she began to realize how radically she had changed herself to try to make the marriage work, she made her decision and has not looked back. She and her child are planning to move out of the house soon.

I really care for this woman, and I believe she cares for me. I'm not the type to "casually date" (never have been) and while I'm not at all suggesting that we go ahead and plan a wedding (neither one of us need to jump into a relationship with the expectation of a new spouse to come from it), I am at this stage not going to date anyone whom I could not see as a potential long-term partner. In other words, I think this relationship has a lot of potential, and I sure don't want to screw it up unecessarily because of timing.

My friend has stated that while she is ready to start a new, independent life with her child, she does not want to be on her own forever, that she would eventually like to date and marry again. I have no idea whether or not she and I could end up married (ok, I have SOME idea based on things so far <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ), but I do know that I want to date her when she is ready.

Is she ready now? Can she be? I know so many people will probably say no way. What would be your advice for us -- to be just friends for now (i.e. stop kissing <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) and try to look forward to dating some in the future? Can we just take it slow and see what happens?

Again, I see so much potential here -- it would be such a shame to waste it...

Am I the one in the fog now? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Any thoughts greatly appreciated!

Zen -
First I have to say congratulations for holding out so long before jumping back into the dating scene. And then handling it so responsibly when you finally made the leap! I've gotta say, you did a heck of a lot better than me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Having said all that, you probably realize I didn't waste any time once my WH filed for Dv. So anything I say here should be taken with that in mind. I'm inclined to jump in and test the waters - emotions rule me, not my head. Like you, I saw a possible relationship that seemed interesting. I didn't want to pass it up and possibly miss out on something good. So I went for it as soon as WH filed for Dv.

I too thought I was over my WH. I thought I was ready for another R. I had 5 years of a terrible M, where I'd all but lost any love for my H, and then another 3 months fighting for my M after D-Day, during which I lost any love I had left.

Biggest mistake was starting off the R with sex and not having a friendship to build on. You sound like you've at least established a friendship - that's the positive.

Then I realized that I wasn't over WH. I was still so angry and sad and bitter. Everything my new BF did, I related back to my failed M. When I wasn't angry, I was too needy, all because I'd been so long without my WH's love.

In the end the R failed, and I'm back in another tailspin of depression and self-doubts. Obviously not so bad as with my WH - my BF and I had only been together a couple months. But still bad enough, especially when I thought I'd made so many positive changes in myself. Only to find those changes were superficial.

My point? That it probably is too soon to start anything serious. That you're much better off going slow and keeping the friendship going. You say your friend is independent and self-sufficient, that she's come to this decision by herself, that she's decided it is time to move on. So did I. And I believed it. But the truth is, I wasn't and ruined a potential relationship because I didn't move slowly enough.

Food for thought....

SH94-

Thanks for your kind words and advice! Reading your post has made me think about all kinds of things, but it mainly has crystallized a new question: Do BS's and WS's by definition require more time to themselves before they should date again, simply because of the severe "condition" of their unmet EN's which have caused this sort of penultimate, hurtful action?

OK, that was too wordy -- let me try again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Since my new friend has not gone through infidelity, does this mean she will need less time? (By infidelity, I mean willful breaking of trust in a committed relationship -- theirs is a separated state and no longer committed.)

I'm really not trying to rush this relationship. I guess my fear is that having ANY sort of relationship at all now will negate us having one in the future. Maybe that's looking at it a bit too harshly.

I think/feel we just need to keep growing and strengthening our friendship. I don't think there's any way we could totally give up physical affection at this point, but we've got to have the self-control to not let things get out of hand either.

Do you think it's appropriate to bring up these ideas with her? To suggest that perhaps she should continue to reflect on her relationship with her H to make sure she's truly moved on? I just don't know how to do that without sounding like a complete [censored].

Hmmm. Now that I think about it, my WW had unresolved feelings for her XH while we were together, and she at one time had convinced me that she was completely over him. I do have to admit, however, that my new friend seems to be taking a very realistic, truthful approach to her relationship with her H, much more so than my WW did.

So much to think about. Thanks again SH94!

zen,
It's really good to see you again. I saw your update on GQ the other day. Someone asked about you a few weeks ago.... it may have been Topie. I can't remember.

I wanted to wait and see what others post to you, but I'll jump in here. Well, you want to be knocked upside your head? Why? Something tells you that your situation is potentially dangerous? Of course we don't know how things will go, but usually, the advice is to wait before jumping into anything serious. I would like to advise you to avoid the situation completely... but at the VERY least... to take things extremely slow.

One school of thought is this: Either you are married, or you're not. You are, and she is, so it's really best for everyone that you both wait until all situations are resolved. I went out with a man on 3 dates before he was honest and told me his D was still pending. I freaked, and told him I couldn't see him until everything was resolved, and still was not sure about that because he mis-led me. When he told me the D wasn't final, I remembered all the stories here on MB, where the WS typically tells the OP that "Our marriage is already over. We are just waiting for the D to be finalized." I pictured a BS - like me - sitting at home crying and wanting her marriage to work out.... even though he painted the picture to me that the D was a mutual decision.

Do you think it's possible that having YOU in her life has influenced her decision to give up on her marriage? What will happen one day... if things ever get rocky in YOUR relationship with her.... and another nice man comes in her life?

Well, I'm anxious to read what others post to you. Lots of people in the non-MB world will tell you it's OK. But MB'ers... especially those who have been betrayed, will probably advise you to steer clear.

I don't want to see you as a BS again... I don't want to see you play a part in her decision to end her marriage... and I don't want to see you caught in the middle of fence-sitting, if she goes that route... I've seen that with another friend who is an "OM"....

MB huggggssssssssss!!!!

zen,

I don't know your whole story but by virtue of you being a BS I know you've gone through alot.

Just some things to thing about.

Men usually want another relationship sooner than women - don't know why, but it's in all the books, I guess it's just how they're made - so it's natural for you to want to move on faster than she.

Also, I have to give some credibility to what Faith1 said about the possibility that you have influenced her decision to leave her H.

I only say this because when my WH left me he always told me that OW was NOT the reason for the end of our marraige and in fact they were just "friends" - just kissing - but on this site it's called an EA. You know of what I speak. How can your new friend have said that she honestly tried to fix her marriage when she sees another great guy waiting in the wings.

If you were married and having trouble - is how she acted with her H how you would want her to act with you? Do you really know what happened in their marriage and how hard they tried. The only way to reallly know that is to ask her H.

And I say this, because my WH tells EVERYONE how hard he tried in our marriage, when in fact, he NEVER even said anything to me that he was unhappy.

I really don't want to sound negative, but if you really want to do things right - it would be better to make sure you were both healed and starting out on the right foot or you may end up right back here.

I know it's not what you wanted to hear - but the fact that you even brought up the topic means that deep down, you have good iinstincts and like the WS's who yes, are in that infatuation fog, we are like that too, and most probably you would go through withdrawal too if you tried to break it off with your new friend.

But remember this. She is not the only one out there who can make you happy. That is what the WS's think. The happy feelings you get come from inside you. So just don't get desparate and do what YOU think is the right thing to do.

K

PS - also remember that anything you do now are things your WW could use against you in the divorce proceedings and custody proceedings if you have kids - you wouldn't want to lose out and be accused of adultery because of any relationship and you wouldn't want that for your friend either - just don't forget about the legal aspect of this too.

<small>[ January 02, 2003, 10:39 AM: Message edited by: God is in Control ]</small>

Hey, Zen - I'm back again. And I have to agree with the previous 2 posts - your friend probably has decided to make the final leap based in part, if not wholly, on your presence in her life. It's been my experience that people don't leave their spouses unless there's some overwhelming reason to do so. Like fear for their lives. Or finding someone else. Otherwise they're usually content to let things continue even if the marriage isn't quite the perfection they once imagined it to be.

I'm speaking here from experience - several of them, as a matter of fact - both marriages and affairs. Having been a WS, I can tell you I never left a H until I knew I had something better to go to. I stayed in several bad marriages, thoroughly unhappy with my life, until I found someone else whom I knew would be there for me. And my WH was exactly the same - stayed with me for 5 years, depressed and unhappy, until he found an OW who wanted him after the divorce.

Now I'll take the devil's advocate position. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, with regards to your own situation. Because the truth is, sticking with a known quantity instead of braving the unknown is only human nature. Why should we leave a marriage simply because we're "unhappy"? Especially when the alternative -living alone, without spousal support - looks so much bleaker. I would guess that most people need that little nudge, the thought that there is someone out there who would make us happier, to finally force us to move on. Sure, it would be nice to believe we're strong enough to recognize when a marriage has failed and move on without any external stimulus. But most of us aren't built like that. IMHO.

So I guess what I'm saying with all that babbling (sorry, I do tend to ramble late at night) is that even if your friend has decided to leave because of you, that doesn't mean you should walk off. BUT - and this is a big "BUT" - do recognize that she may be using you as an excuse, and knowing that you should be wary.

Seems to me that the downside of jumping into a serious relationship right now outweighs the upside of staying friends. If this does have the potential of becoming a serious relationship then you run the risk of jeopardizing it by going too fast. And if she is simply reacting to her failed marriage by turning to you, and if you do get serious now, then you run the risk of being hurt all over again. However, building on this friendship, making it stronger, enjoying your time together, and all without romance muddying the waters, has very little negatives and a whole lot of positives. In fact, I can't think of anything bad about going slow except it's just gratification delayed.

What do you think?

Faith, K, SH94:

Thank you all very much -- your wise words are exactly what I needed to hear, even though I may not have wanted to hear some of them.

I'm not suggesting we get serious right now. I think that we both know that's not only a bad idea but impossible as well.

I guess what has concerned me the most is exactly where to go from here to ensure that we can have a chance at dating some time in the future. I was hoping that the general consensus would be that we have not screwed things up already -- and I don't think we have.

SH, I have to tell you that when I read this from your last post: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> However, building on this friendship, making it stronger, enjoying your time together, and all without romance muddying the waters, has very little negatives and a whole lot of positives. In fact, I can't think of anything bad about going slow except it's just gratification delayed.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I got really happy because that's exactly the idea I want to implement. As things are now, I feel that while the romancing is really enjoyable in the moment, it is overall contributing negatively to the relationship in terms of guilt and simply knowing internally that we just should not be there yet.

I just hope it's realistic to expect to maintain a close friendship that will eventually lead to more. I know we can have the self-control to keep things from getting too heavy. Breaking off all contact seems just too dramatic/extreme, and I don't think that's the potential withdrawal talking. I guess attempting the friendship and seeing if it eventually works out is the best way to test the worthiness of this relationship anyway.

I may try to talk to her this afternoon about things -- if so, I'll post later.

Thanks again! -z

Hi zen - ditto Faith1.

Glad to see you around.

Dave

zen,

From what I am reading in your post, this is nothing but trouble.

I think your friend falls into the classic pattern of WS's who find a new person first, then decide that their marriages are not good (and never were), and then decide that they've tried everything but their stubborn spouses just won't listen or cooperate.

From the other side of the fence (i.e. being on the receiving end of this), I'll tell ya that I never had a clue that anything was wrong with my marriage. So when my now-ex gave me the "speech", it was all news to me. Of course by then she already had an OM, with whom she shared how bad a marriage she had, how much she's tried to work on it (without cluing me in, of course), how wonderfully she and the OM clicked, etc etc.

Look at it from your friend's H's perspective - I'll bet you that he'll see you as an OM. Now, whether or not you agree with this assessment, I think that there is some truth to that point of view. After all, she did become involved with you while still living with her H, and, from what I'm hearing, before telling her H anything about their problems, and certainly before separating from him.

So, from many angles, this would make you the OM, no matter how strongly your friend protests that you are not a contributor. So, being a BS yourself, I wonder how you would feel being considered an OM all of a sudden? How would you feel about her child being told that step-daddy had an affair with mommy?

BTW, this concern is in addition to, not instead of, my overall opinion that someone in her situation is nowhere near ready for dating (and you probably aren't either), since she hasn't even began to grieve the end of her marriage. Do you really want to be tangled up in that?

Anyway, I hope this helped. FWIW, I too dated while separated, and it was a big mistake...

AGG

<small>[ January 03, 2003, 01:43 PM: Message edited by: AGoodGuy ]</small>

zen,

I just wanted to write because I think I just lived through exactly what you are facing. I met a wonderful guy. Someone who I could see myself with in a few years but just being divorced I wasn't even thinking re-marriage. I just enjoyed his company and the more I got to know him, the more I liked him.

One problem. He wasn't ready. His divorce was supposed to be final (his W had been gone about a year) in Dec but the trial got postponed. Everything in our relationship/friendship was going great until this setback. I think he realized he couldn't go on with his future until he got his past behind him. I felt ready to date again but he was afraid. It was unusual how much we had in common and how well be got along. I don't think either or us planned to meet someone so quickly that we were attracted to on a emotional and physical level.

I tried my best to take it slow. TO let him know that I didn't want any more than what he was willing to offer but the whole idea of having someone care for him and take part of his life again on any level was just too much. HE was not ready.

We agreed to stay apart for a while with little e-mail contact and no-phone contact. He says he will call me once his divorce is final and that it had nothing to do with me.

You know what. I beleive him. I really do. I know where he is because I just left that place.

I fully understand your wanting to try this new relationship because face it, it feels sooooo good. I felt the same way. Nothing vendured, nothing gained, I would tell my friends if they said I was falling too fast.

That may be true. I don't regret meeting him but I do regret the timing. I am currently waiting. It may sound silly but I really liked this guy enough to wait to see what happens. If he hasn't called me in a few months, I'll call him and see where things stand.

I do know that it hurts like heck. I never wanted to get hurt and he didn't want to hurt me. It just happened because the timing was terrible.

I wish I could just be his friend because I know we would be great friends but since we have gone past that level, it is impossible for me to go back to "just friends" until I get this emotional attachment out of the way.

I don't guess this makes any sense. I'd just be careful to protect your heart and know that she will not be ready to move on until her past is behind her. There is nothing you can do to speed the healing process. You may be a distraction or help allieviate the immeidate pain, but she will still need to grieve for her lost marriage even if she is doing the right thing.

Good luck. I wish I was of more help but my heart was a victim of bad timing too.

Lynn

The reason for this post is not me -- I'm ready to date again. My new friend has just in the past few months decided to become separated from her H and is herself moving towards divorce
This is called an affair. You are now the OM.
As you have been here long enough (and hopefully learned something <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) affairs do not necessarily involve sex nor even heavy dating.

After she is divorced and you are divorced, then start seeing her again if you are both interested. Until then, I HIGHLY recommend you do not have any communication with her. If she gets divorced, let her do it without any emotional involvement from you.

Can I try a different angle?

zen, you are a great guy, and you have learned so much the last 2 years.... and when the time is right.... for YOU... AND for that someone special... you deserve something great to happen.... with someone special who you can have ALL to yourself (someone who's not separated)... someone who has grieved and is healed from her last serious relationship... someone who is a whole person like you are becoming... someone who can focus on you and your relationship, without ties, guilt, regret, and separation and divorce details...

you don't have to settle for someone who is still tied to someone else.... BUT even if she IS right for you, then you can build something together AFTER she closes this chapter of her life...

Well! Thanks for all the replies. Oh, and hi Dave, you kooky crazy guy you... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Geez, why don't you guys tell me how you really feel? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

OK first, a little clarification on a few issues as I think I did not explain them clearly enough, plus I've learned a few new things over the weekend:

My friend has had problems with her marriage from the very beginning. She's voiced them and there have been attempts at solutions. She finally decided a few months ago to take the step of getting divorced. This all happened before she and I ever spoke more than 10 words to each other. I only bring this up because I felt that some of you got the impression that she was either wavering or fencesitting until I came along, setting things in motion. We talked about this very issue today, and I can honestly tell you that this is not the case. (More on that later.) People, i know the fog when I see it. She is not saying these things under its spell. You just have to trust me on this!

Anyway, we had a great talk over the weekend, and I am simultaneously sad and elated that things went the way they did. Basically, we both acknowledged that we have grown to feel very deeply about one another very quickly... but that what is best for now is to not have the sort of relationship that this thing is headed towards. I told her that if putting the brakes on now is what is required in order for there to be a chance at having a relationship in the future when she's ready, I would kindly show her the door. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> The best part is the complete harmony that we have in taking this step and the reasons behind it... This girl continues to amaze me every time that I talk to her.

So I'm really happy because we both see this relationship as something really special, potentially, and I'm also happy because we are seemingly being wise enough to face the reality of the situation and attempt to do the right thing for now with eyes towards the future.

I'm sad because of the thoughts of the pain and ordeal that lies before her. Every part of my being wants to reach out and help her, to do everything and anything for her to help her get through that, but I know that is just not my place. What's more, doing so could be very detrimental. These are things she must face by herself to get to that good place.

I'm also sad because I know that this simply means less time together, and here we come to my current problem I'm puzzling over. We were not able to really finish our conversation and have not really talked about where we go from here.

This is a tough question! Breaking all contact whatsoever is in my view the wrong answer -- just as extreme as moving forward would be. I hate the idea of coming up with "rules" but perhaps as silly as that seems, it might work best. A friend of mine came up with a good one: he said, "Why not just say that you can't be alone together in a room?" He also said that this rule would be in conjunction with the overall idea of not seeing each other as much, just when we did, limiting it to public things (lunch, maybe a movie) and of course with no handholding, etc. Phone calls would be ok, just as long as not overdone. E-mail/IM is just fine. Handwritten letters = perfectly legal. Hmmm. OK, now it is starting to sound hokey as I type it, but haven't people made situations work like this in the past? Lynn, is there a reason why you guys decided to limit your communication so much?

I honestly believe that we can discipline ourselves to behave as friends, and to continue to become closer as friends without the romance, except maybe for some harmless, well-timed innuendo here and there just for fun. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> The question is: What will work best to accomplish the long-term goal of two healed people who are ready to try having a relationship together?

Again, HUGE thanks for all of you who have have taken the time to respond with your opinions. You have honestly helped me tremendously with your thoughts.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by zen:
<strong>The question is: What will work best to accomplish the long-term goal of two healed people who are ready to try having a relationship together?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think that neither of you, and especially not your not-yet-separated friend, qualify for being "healed people who are ready to try having a relationship together".

I appreciate your efforts to make it work, but limiting your relationship to an EA, while making innuendo about an upcoming consumation of this relationship, hardly qualifies for being "just friends". My ex and her OM decided to "cool it" to an EA after I busted their PA and while my ex was still living in our house.... So, they were "only" e-mailing each other, paging each other, etc... Of course if I tell you WHAT they paged to each other, I'll get banned from this board <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> . You have already crossed the line, and IMO there is no going back.

Anyway, I simply believe that how a relationhsip starts can sometimes doom it; in your case, I think that you are pretty close to that. The ONLY possibility is to go to absolute no contact, until she is completely divorced AND healed. Hey, if the relationship IS so special, she'll still be there for you a year from now, won't she? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

All IMO, of course, and I do appreciate your angst about this and your efforts to do the right thing. It speaks highly of you!

AGG

<small>[ January 07, 2003, 09:55 AM: Message edited by: AGoodGuy ]</small>

zen,

First of all, I'm so happy you and she have had the dreaded "conversation". It was really bad for me but I know, like you said, that unless I let him deal with his issues on his own, I would just be getting in the way.

Personally, I think that he just needed time to deal with things. He is depressed and takes medication for that. I don't want to go into a lot of detail but apparently his STBX wife made big issues over sexual performance, etc. I think he is just not ready to start that part of his life again yet. I know that may sound wierd because it may not be typical that a guy would turn away SF for any reason. However, this guy is special. He has it in his head that he is not good company. He doesn't want to hurt me, I understand that but he isn't ready to get serious in another relationship.

We didn't say we would never talk again, but I did agree to back off and wait to contact him until after February when his divorce is supposed to be final. He really needs the time and I undertstand that. He says he will update me on when the court date is and we contiue to pray for each other daily. As much as I wanted to DO something, I had to just stop myself. I did send an e-mail saying Happy New Year but was careful to word it not to expect a response.

I would love to see him, support him during this tough time, hold him, etc but I can't. He has to want that too and right now, he just can't go there. I have no choice but to respect that. I truly only want to be with someone who wants to be with me.

I think no contact was easier for him to deal with because quite frankly we weren't doing a good jobs of keeping our hands to ourselves. We had not gotten to "making love" stage but we were quite a bit past just friends.

Because I wanted to be with him so badly, I told him during that last conversation that I was sorry that I couldn't be just his friend. He understood that I wanted more than that. I truly regret that now as he is a person that would make the absolute best friend in the world. We have so much in common and we feel the same way about so many issues. It was just too hard for me before to think about not kissing him or holding hands, etc. I didn't think I was strong enough not to be dropping hints all the time.

It's been 3 weeks now since I talked to him last and I want so badly to let him know that I can just be his friend. It would be hard as I'm a bit of a "touchy-feely" person but as long as we set the boundaries ( I hate the word rules), I think I could do it. I would at least like to try. Honestly, I really don't want to give up on this potential relationship right now.

It may also help you to know that we live 70 miles apart so we don't have to worry about seeing each in the grocery store, bank, etc.

I truly wish you luck but please heed the advice of the others too. You've received a lot of good advice.

I'd really like to know how your next conversation goes and if you are able to maintain a "just friends" relationship until her divorce is final.

My X who thought he found what he wanted. Having her made it easier for him to leave his family but he's been remarried 2 months now and from what he says, he is not happy. I don't mean to compare you or your friend to my X, I just hate to see you get hurt during all this. I know how alwful it hurts.

Good luck and God Bless,

Lynn

Zen -- I am going to say something extremely blunt, but I mean it in the kindest way possible. We are all called to live by the golden rule: do unto others as you would have them do unto you. The other here is not your friend, it is her husband. If you were on this board giving advice to an OM who was dating a married woman would you actually recommend any of the actions you are suggesting here? Would you, yourself, have been consoled to know that the OM in your marriage had agreed to "take it slow" with your wife while she continued to live with you? What about after she had moved out to be with him but you were not yet divorced? NO!!! I would bet the ranch that like all of us BS's your dearest wish was that the OM would do the right thing and get out of your lives so that you and your wife could try to salvage your marriage.

I know this sounds very harsh, but it is all a matter of perspective, isn't it? Two weeks or two days from now your "friend's" husband could be on these boards pouring his heart out, racked with the most unbearable pain there is. Do you really want to be party to that?

Clearly you are a decent and honorable man, or you wouldn't be so torn by this situation. I think you know the right answer: do the decent and honorable thing and end this relationship. Why try to build your happiness on someone else's misery? Love someone who is free to love you back.

Again, please take my words in the spirit in which they are intended, a spirit of kindness and empathy. Be the kind of man you can be proud of, all the rest, including a woman to love you, is sure to follow in its own time.

zen,

I am going through a tough time myself right now. My wife has left me over 4 months ago. I tried every thing possible to reconcile with her but all attempts had failed -- up until now.

She even filed for Divorce, I still have faith in God and hope for restoration. The point is, I would not want my wife to have someone else in her life while we are going through this. Nor that I want to do the same. God and his scriptures are very clear in regards to the issue of divorce and separation. Although my wife is not abiding by them for now, there is always hope for reconciliation, because nothing is impossible with God. So that door should always be open. Having someone in my life or my wife's life will interfer with the process. So I agree with every one that you should take your time and not interfer with any hope that might be out there for your friend.

We as humans tend to jumb into relationships to plug the void that was left behind for separation. The longer the marriage, the deeper the void, and the quicker we rush. We tend to self medicate, and relationships are one way of self medication. Often time we are drawn to these relationships with hopes and expectations based on our previous ones. And thus, the results could be devistating.

So friend, take your time. Someone out there is being prepared for you by God, just wait for the time when it happenes.

Best of luck, and God bless.

AA

My friend has had problems with her marriage from the very beginning. She's voiced them and there have been attempts at solutions. She finally decided a few months ago to take the step of getting divorced. This all happened before she and I ever spoke more than 10 words to each other.
Most ws say the same thing. And they usually believe most of it.

However, the depth of these problems usually increases extremely dramatically AFTER there is someone else in the picture, meaning they NEVER considered divorce until after someone else was in the picture and then they say they considered divorce LONG ago!

My point is when there is someone else involved, the thinking gets confused re: the FOG!!! Previous stuff which were minor annoyances become MAJOR issues.

If what she says is real (it may be) then you owe it to her, her husband & YOU to let it get settled with you NOT confusing any issues nor giving her any justifications.

I honestly believe that we can discipline ourselves to behave as friends, and to continue to become closer as friends without the romance, except maybe for some harmless, well-timed innuendo here and there just for fun.
Most ws say the same thing when they think they can be "just friends" after a PA.

The question is: What will work best to accomplish the long-term goal of two healed people who are ready to try having a relationship together?
The question is, "where are the two healed people?" She is still married. Let her get divorced and heal before you establish a relationship.

We were not able to really finish our conversation and have not really talked about where we go from here.
This is a tough question! Breaking all contact whatsoever is in my view the wrong answer -- just as extreme as moving forward would be. I hate the idea of coming up with "rules" but perhaps as silly as that seems, it might work best.
Of course it seems like the wrong answer to you! You are too involved! You are trying to justify it by saying she is getting divorced anyway.

The best and easiest rule for all is
Tell her you cannot see her anymore and IF she gets divorced, then give you a call but not until!

If you don't do this, then you will grow on each other more. What happens if/when she decides she is NOT going to go through with the divorce? How would you feel then? And her?

Do not see her until a divorce is final. That does not mean filed, in the works or whatever..

This deserves it's own post.

So I'm really happy because we both see this relationship as something really special, potentially,
Which is why so many spouses will give up EVERYTHING in their current lives for it.
They literally give up jobs, families, friends, everything they own.

In these forums, I have seen wives whose husbands have left them and given them EVERYTHING in a divorce. This includes businesses the husbands have had for years before the wife. They spend tens of thousands of dollars on the ow and do not give a dime in child support.

This includes wives who have left and have had little/no contact with anyone in their family including their own children, their parents, brothers sisters, etc.

STOP and let her get the divorce COMPLETED.

zen,

I think you've been hearing the straight word already from a lot of good folks.

You are only hearing one side of the story - and it seems that you are not thinking about her H at all. You seem concerned about this situation only because you want to maximize the chances of getting what you want - to marry this woman. But where is your concern for that poor man who is suffering somewhere today - who feels unspeakable pain (if he even knows what's going on)? Please think about him - and think about what kind of woman would do this to her H.

Of course, we are all tempted... and if I were in your shoes I might "feel" something like you do, but I've got to say that the woman is married - and you are too! This is an affair. Sorry to put it so plainly. I think that is why so many people fall into the trap. I feels good. It can't be that awful thing they've heard about. It can't be "dirty". It can't be wrong. It can't be bad. It feels good. It has to be good. But this is all a dream... which will turn into a nightmare (and probably already is a nightmare for her H).

When the lady's H tells you "It's ok. We're finished anyway." - then that is another question. Have you talked to him? No. You have no idea what is really happening in that marriage or what happened in the past. You have only the reports from one side of the issue.

Man, I understand that it's tempting. But, it is what it is.

-AD

<small>[ May 16, 2003, 01:55 PM: Message edited by: AD ]</small>