Hi Mariesue! Thanks for sharing! K and Karenna, thank you again. My!!...all your messages are interesting. <BR>Yeah, that's it...there's a sort of pull on me to stay with him through this therapy. Maybe it is God. I do know if it weren't for me, he wouldn't be doing the therapy and would also quit if I were to leave him. I had to set a strong boundary with him yesterday, in fact, that if he quits now, I'm seeing a lawyer. He shut up. <P>I am still very desperately needing to go and this is a painful turn-around for me to make now to stay and hope yet again. It feels insane. But I must give it a chance.<P>Thanks again for the support!!

Had another counseling session & I'm struggling again to keep believing in their ability to detect what this man is doing!! I feel she corrects me on stuff when she should be blowing the whistle on what H is doing. Sometimes they think they know what is going on and I tell them that is not it, but "this" is it. I'm afraid they can't see it! So I tried harder to explain....and things got quiet...<BR>especially as I brought up H's spiritually abusive stuff.<P>You see, what worries me is her whole counseling mindset is that your parents/family life causes your reactions now. Well, that is true to a point, and may certainly be what she and her H are all about, but this is not the whole game with H and I!!! She's telling me in front of H that I need to deal with my family of origin issues (this plays into H's sickness wanting to blame me & my parents!!!)when I have long ago dealt with that,their belief system, the affects on me, etc and gone beyond that!!!!! I told her the problem for me is how H's ways have affected me year after year!!.... <P>Then to sit there and watch H bragging up himself again, story after story.... !!! It's about all I can take.<BR>It is too painful to hear his perceptions, justifications, etc.... How can I believe H will ever wake up to his ways??<BR>Do I dare let them counsel him alone?? I don't know if they can handle him. <P>They want us to do the mechanical talk of mirror back what you hear, etc. I tried to do that years ago. He only goes in circles and makes everything my fault. Will he do it now because they told him too? And so what? He will just change his story the next day anyway. <P>Well, I think I'll do the lifestyle assessment and let H do his, get an analysis of that, and then decide (God help me!) when enough of this is enough. <P> <P><BR>

I'm sorry if this is too blunt, Renae, but your husband sounds like a real, actual nut, not just a poor confused guy with issues. Has he ever been evaluated by a psychiatrist? He really sounds like he needs help / medication.<P>I'm especially tired of hearing of people using the Bible as a weapon to judge others and rationalize their own behavior. Where's the "do unto others" in all of this? <P>As for anybody fond of using all these direct Bible quotes as commands for how (usually other people!) are to run their life - do they understand that at least the New Test. was anthologized from oral history over 100 years after Christ lived, and that all texts of O.T. and N.T. were translated many, many, many times from other languages and edited over and over before the versions we are familiar with appeared? Geez, enough! Meaning, God also gave you the gift of free will along with responsiblity for your own life...<P>Further, some of your posts sound like the almighty is speaking directly to your husband!?! Hello, megalomania?<P>I am very, very surprised that you haven't filed for divorce seeking sole custody. What are you waiting for? Why have you stayed so long? I guess I assume that you've stayed because the relationship is working on SOME level for you...<P>With best wishes for your continued courage and strength -<BR>Gobyfish

You know, I think gobyfish might be onto a good idea with the evaluations. <P>What about the possibility of two thorough psychological evaluations? I would say they'd need to be done by a well-qualified Ph.D. level psychological examiner - no way, more than likely, you'd find one of these in a religious setting.<P>If nothing else, it would help you see yourself. It is possible that you could have them done, neither of you hear each other's results but have the results forwarded on to the counselors, then ask them if - based on what they see - there is any way, given the nature of both of you, you can hope for a restoration of your marriage.<P>That said, I do believe God can do miracles - but He can't do them with people's hearts unless allowed to do so.<P>

Renae:<P>I know I sound like a broken record, but you are not responsible for your husband, you are not his caretaker or saviour.<P>What disturbed me was a couple of posts ago, you said if you didn't continue the counseling, you were afraid he might not go......so what?<P>This is no longer your worry...you are still more concerned about him than you are to love yourself.<P>Renae....it's time to bail out and let go. You are only prolonging God being able to deal with your husband, which in my humble opinion, can't happen until you are totally removed from the picture.<P>[censored]

I met with the therapist... I have regained faith in her and a clearer understanding of the process and techniques. She really does have a good, deep, complete grasp on all levels (spiritual, psychological, emotional, etc.)of this mess, but especially the ROOT--shamed-based. <P>We will meet once more as a "couples" counseling next week, I will complete the assessment test, then they are going to try to get H alone for assessment and counsel. <P>After all I told her, she defines him as nasty, very shame-based, codependent, controlling, abusive, majorly fearing rejection, having unresolved grief,etc..... I told her I have been near insanity with him and wondered if he was totally psychotic or what!! Apparently she knows where the line is on that. We talked of where the line is of helping right versus enabling his bad behavior, etc. But her advise is not to separate right now, that me being part of this is his only hope of real life. But I should definitely leave the house if he becomes physically abusive (go to the other house). <P>She sees potential of this really turning around, if they and I do as planned and he cooperates. She hopes H will come to Pastor T's church too. She says H can be a different man in 4 months and we going a new direction over the next year..... <P>I have stopped fixing him. He's in God's hands and in the hands of the best therapists. <P>I will continue toward the focus on my own healing, regain creativity, etc. and give the kids the mom they so need, etc. She thinks their stomach problems (which started from flu viruses in the last two years) are continuing to be terribly symptomatic due to the "sickness" in our marriage/family. God help us!!<P>I really enjoyed a tape by Keith Miller--<BR>a recovering controller!! It fits H and my situation so well! <P>Thanks for your continued prayers. This is HARD!!!!!! <BR> <P><p>[This message has been edited by Renae (edited May 25, 2001).]

Renae - <BR>What are the symptoms of the stress-related stomach problems your kids have? I was wondering because I suffered for years with stomach and digestive problems stemming from family stress. There may be some non-prescription easy answers to alleviate same.<P>I'm glad to hear you're going to concentrate on you and your kids while waiting to see if your H is willing to change. You sound like a very generous person.<P>gobyfish

What did you do for your symptoms? Were every other physical causes ruled out by doctors?<P>Our 2 kids have nausea constantly that gets very bad at different times of the day, like they never recovered from the flu. Since it started after a flu shot and the flu, I think it is all from that and do not agree with the counselor that family stress is much involved. <P>One daughter went from that week of flu to a year of nausea with alternating days of diarrhea & constipation, we ran all kinds of tests on her, finally she started gagging & pain near her rib & it got so bad she ended up in the hospital for exploratory surgery-- found her appendix in an upright position rubbing on the colon & ribcage! Surgeon said it is common for appendix trouble following a severe flu. Once it was removed, all symptoms quit except for this nausea!...<BR>It was getting better by the end of last summer, but in the fall she caught another flu, and it set her back in recovery. Specialists call it N.U.D. (non-ulcerative dyspepsia) and have no cure. (It's been 2 yrs of this)<P>The other child has had a year of only nausea but it shows no sign of getting better. <P>I keep praying, trying to believe for their healing! I do not want them to have to live their whole life like this.<BR>I'm currently trying special enzyme pill for the first daughter, because I saw a tv ad saying that if you have stomach trouble accompanied by cold, clammy hands & feet, that is a digestive matter and these enzymes will help. Sometimes these pills do relieve her occasional hands & feet problem but don't seem to relieve the nausea. <BR>

My chiropractor would think there is a chance that their could be a spinal related cause.<P>I, personally, can tell you that my body has a definite physical reaction to stress. And it can be pretty painful. But as soon as I deal with the cause of the stress, the pain goes away. It feels like a knife turning inside that triangle fight below my sternum and between the halves of my ribcage.<P>It well could be stress.<P>Do you honestly feel like you can last 4 months? That is after school starts. Might it be easier on the children for you to move before school starts?

Yes, it's very possible that stress adds to it..... I'm currently checking with a chiropractor to see what he can do.<P>Oh, I know...4 months?????!!!.... And I just got through another episode minutes ago having H fly off with anger at me AGAIN, blaming, shaming, accusing, misjudging me.... !!!! He also complained he can't (or doesn't want to) afford the counselor. I told him the church offered to help, but he said no to that. I told him firmly, of things he can do with finances but "I can't wait any longer for resolve to things!!!....You're not going to shove stuff under the rugs anymore!!!...or would you rather I leave and take the kids?...You'd better keep on with this counselor and that's it...right NOW!!!" GRRRR Did I make myself clear????!!!!<P>This counselor told me the same line as the last counselor that I need to be strong. Well, how can I get any stronger? A person can only take so much and I'm beyond that. AFter what I went through with him this morning, maybe she still doesn't realize how terribly harrassing he is? I tried to get a cassette taping this morning, but H caught it... I wish so badly she could have heard this!!!!!!!!.....<P><BR> <p>[This message has been edited by Renae (edited May 25, 2001).]

I've just read the past threads on this particular forum and I'm dumbfounded, to say the least. I'm not a "good" Christian and have little knowledge of the Bible, be it the New Testament or the Old Testament, but I DO know that your H is a hypocrite. I do not know what Christian demonination that your hubby prefers to practice, but he appears to have been brainwashed. In fact, his religious thoughts and ideas seem cult-like. Perhaps a mind defragmentation is necessary.<P>Best of luck to you Renae......you need it, honey!<P>------------------<BR><B>Time heals all wounds as long as you DON'T pick at them!</B><p>[This message has been edited by GeezLouise (edited May 27, 2001).]

Thank you, GeezLouise. Yes!..."cult-like" and a mind-defragmentation would be great!! I don't know how these therapists think they can get through to him! Maybe they know how to deprogram somebody??!!! Well, I certainly know I can't fix him-- I've given that up. <P>I really FEAR doing the couple counseling this week. She calls it "stirring the pot", but it frustrates me beyond toleration! I think she said it will be the last time, & then they take him alone. Pray I can be stronger this ONE MORE TIME and keep my balance!<P>From the moment I awakened today, it felt like a slap in the face..."NO!!! NOT ONE MORE DAY OF THIS!!!...not one more week!!!!!..... But right now I remember that in the last 3 yrs I have grown "wings" and anytime now, all I have to do is flex them and fly!!!!!!!! No more oppression on my spirit!!...F R E E !!!!!! <P> <P> <P>

What are the words to that song?....<P>"I believe I can fly. I believe I can touch the sky.<BR>Think about it every night and day. Spread my wings and fly away..... See me walking through that open door...."<P>

Yes. You can. What doesn't kill you will only make you better or stronger.<P><BR>The catch is that you and your soul can be killed off little bits at a time. Renae, your job is to recapture the fragments of your soul that you have already left behind. Journaling helps with that. You are responsible for your own soul. Leave his to him and his god. Whatever that may be.

You're so right, Karenna!! <P>I'm really struggling here! (But we missed a week of counseling due to illness) We're going back tonight!...<BR>Please pray!! Thanks a million for the support!!!!!

HI Renae,<P>I could not resist commenting here. After quickly reading through all these posts I had so many reactions. I'll get to the point ok?<P>1. You shouldn't have to pray that your counselor hear your tape recorded conversations between you and your husband so there is "proof" of what is occurring dynamically in your relationship. Your posts say it all - You are being driven crazy by this man, and your children are suffering, believe me. How do I know these things? Well, a. I worked at a domestic violence shelter for 2 years and counseled women and children in your situation, b. Counselors who truely understand the dynamics of domestic abuse also know that couples counseling is dangerous because of the unequal power balance and possible retaliation of the abuser towards the abused for things disclosed in the sessions. Couples counseling is not a recommended form of treatment under any circumstances when there is abuse in a relationship. There are anger management programs for abusers but the abuser has to WANT treatment. c. I have been married for 20 years to an abusive man who hit me once in our marriage when I was pregnant. Throughout our whole marriage, my h has been an abuser.The last two years of our marriage have been hell on earth due to verbal and emotional abuse. <P>In March, my daughter, age 13, was taken to mental health because she cut her arms in 49 different places. She sees a therapist weekly and is on antidepressants. The rage that she vented about her father was unbelievable. She had been complaining about stomach aches and withdrawning prior to this incident in March. She hates her father. She refuses to speak to him since two christmas' ago when he raged at her for half an hour over a soda he thought was his even though she paid for it. When she was in deep depression and at risk for suicide, I pleaded with him to be kind and to refrain from arguing with me around her. I feared for her life. One time when she was unable to get out of her bed due to depression, he came in her room and started humming the theme to the exorcist. It made me sick to my stomach. Another time he told her if only she would be more disciplined and work (at age 13!) this would not have happened to her.<P>My son, age 19, also went off the deep end two weeks prior to my daughter. He left without telling us, went to a rave party, took an overdose of LSD and ended up in the hospital for 3 days. He almost died from heart failure. What is interesting here is that both my kids had been pleading with me to divorce their dad. <P>Maybe because their older and see clearly. Anyway, the ironic thing about this is that they both fell apart when my husband and I decided to work hard on our marriage (yet again,) and we were both doing well together.<P>In april, my daughter and I left for three days due to threats of harm against me and my property.<P>I am filing divorce papers next week for sure. It took major affects on my children for me to act. I couldn't seem to do it for myself. I was completely hooked into the "hope" cycle and believed it was my responsibility to "Fix" the marriage. I now know it takes two. My h bailed out of therapy after two sessions with two different therapist saying they were against him. Unlike your counselor, mine could see, just from what he said, that he was an abuser and they held him accountable. He hated that!! <P>Then, at the great weekly pressure of his mom who is a fundamentalist christian, my h started going to church. He got baptized then promptly stopped going. Said he was convicted about his porn use and no longer wanted to go. <P>You see how abusers can not be responsible for their own actions? How can we have mutual agreements with them? How can the marriage improve with no accountability or desire to change. My h told our last therapist he is "practically perfect" Those were his words!!!<P>Guess I just had to speak up. I'm dealing with the same thing. The pain of letting go of a dead relationship was so difficult but I have managed to get to the other side. You can too. <P>I really fear for you and your children, Renae. I really do. Please take good care of yourself!!!<P>

Renae:<P>After reading hopefulheart's response, how can you continue to 'dance with the enemy'?<P>I know it is none of my business, but I just don't understand why you continue to enable your husband's behavior.<P>When we were praying this morning, I came to your name and when I began to pray for you, I became frustrated and simply told the Lord, I don't know how to pray anymore concerning you.<P>I implore you to seriously, seriously consider what hopefulheart has written...<P>[censored]

Thank you Hopefulheart and [censored]!! <P>The therapists had to cancel our appointment last week, plus H is complaining about the cost,and I am feeling desperately impatient with all of it, like I'm at "emotional emergency" status!!!! I e-mailed the therapists a couple days ago, telling them that they must bite down soon with their "medicine" for H because I can't hang on much longer. <P>They told me truthfully that there is noone else in H's life who can bring him to this opportunity for help which he so desperately needs. H would not get help for himself. If I leave now, he will go on in his sick state & unaccountable to anyone. So, I hang on a bit longer. But I told the therapists I can't stay past the end of June or mid-July, for my own sanity,as well as I need to give the kids time to get used to separation & we get organized before school starts. This is where I'm at now. <P>Thanks for your prayer support, though I know that is frustrating! <P><p>[This message has been edited by Renae (edited June 10, 2001).]

Dear Renae,<P>As you know, I support you and am praying for you every day. I applaud your staying in this in order to help your H. Just be careful. You and your children come first, then your H.<P>Prayerfully,<BR>Gogie

THANK YOU, Gogie, for understanding and your prayers at this critical time for me!! <P>This is my last sacrificially loving gift to H, leading him to therapists who understand his shamebased issues and know how to deal with it. If H refuses to accept the gift, at least I have offered it, and can stand before my God someday and say I have done this...all I could possibly do!