Hi all,

Been away a while, lurked a bit, feel the same as some other posters here, my outlook and mental state have changed so significantly so as not to be useful to new posters to this forum.
Hope you've all been well. I lurk sometimes and try to find updates on some of the guys whose stories I'm familiar with:
NinaToo, Formerly Confused, NotPeachyInGA, MAW64, Anna2000 and so on....

My exW is keeping in contact with me, and I don't know how to break free! She calls me almost every day, sometimes just to chat about this & that. Having been OK with the split for some time now, I find obviously, that the more time I spend around her, the more I'm sucked back into that space that I don't want to be; i.e, her "puppy-dog". Running around, doing errands & favours for her, while she just keeps me on a short leash.

To give an example, I've already taken her to work when she overslept 'cause her boyfriend had been over the night before! Staying out of work is an old habit of hers, as is oversleeping, and I worry that she'll lose her job. When I'm around her, she thinks nothing of changing (her clothes) in front of me, she will also come out of the shower and parade past me naked, I believe to control me. I have now thought about all this, and I need to make a clean break from her, for my own sanity. This has happened over the past few weeks, and before that I was FINE. I know what I have to do, it's just the doing that's so damned difficult!

I thought of a much-belated "no-contact" letter, which I have already written, but can't work up the courage to give it to her.
Any ideas or encouragement would be welcomed.

muzohead

It sounds that you have the resolve to "break free" from your W, and all you need to do is enact upon it. What's stopping you? What have you got to lose if you do or don't have NC with your xW?

Just like when deciding to move to plan B when in plan A, it's sometimes easier to set a date as the NC goal. Is that feasible for you to do? And just b/c you set a date, it's not etched in stone, just a guideline for you... for your sanity! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I find that EXREMELY DISRESPECTFUL of your W, to use you as she is... by getting you to run her errands, and then to flaunt her nakedness in front of you too!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

When I was living in the women's shelters in December 2002, one of the counsellors gave me a trick that she learned from a friend of hers. All it requires is a "post-it" note or a piece of paper and some tape. Write on the paper, "Just say no"... and then paste it by you wherever you go! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> In other words... practice telling your xW, "No". Babysteps work just as well in plan A and B as they do in plan D.

Good luck, and keep us posted on what you decide to do. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Karen

Muzohead - I was reading your post - saying oh my god how does he stay sane??? It must be so hard to talk to her everyday - and have her treat you like you are needed but then - really not need you at all.... And I can relate - I think for your sanity - you owe it to yourself to break free - I have the problem of my ex wanting to be best friends and you know what somedays I am ok with that - but most days I loose it - and I realize that - though I was married to him for a long and I will always love him - it hurts me to much right now to be his friend - I need to not want to see him - not want to hear his voice - I cannot imagine if he was taking off his clothes in front of me... My gosh - You definately need to do plan B - I mean I know from my experience alot of my problem is that I think that I feel sorry for him and I am still trying to help him - but you know what - they don't deserve our help.... You need to move on with your life don't let her control your life - I actually just read a great book by Melody Beattie called - Codependent No more - You should check it out... The hardest thing to do is to break free - but I don't think that you or me or any of us will be happy until we do... Good Luck...

Muzo...Sorry for your confusion. She is playing head games. Not all cake eaters are men ok? I suggest Plan B. Maw is right. And Mimi...Think still B is for you for your recovery. Ihear it in your words too. B makes one stronger and easier in recovery from separation/divorce. Worked for me. I am doing better, except for the money thing, darth shacking up with ow thing, and the mom in hospital stroke thing.

Mozohead,

Oh BOY do I sympathize!! Like you, I was in frequent contact with my stbxH when we separated. It was tearing me apart and I knew it.

If I remember correctly, you and your exW have been apart for a while now (in other words, it's not just new) and yet the two of you are still entangled. You wrote:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>My exW is keeping in contact with me, and I don't know how to break free! She calls me almost every day, sometimes just to chat about this & that. Having been OK with the split for some time now, I find obviously, that the more time I spend around her, the more I'm sucked back into that space that I don't want to be; i.e, her "puppy-dog". Running around, doing errands & favours for her, while she just keeps me on a short leash. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Tell me if I've missed something here. You two are officially living separately and are divorced. Your exW calls you daily to chat or to ask you to do her favors--in other words, she's using you to get her way. You do not want to be her "puppy dog" but you are letting yourself be used. You want to stop it. And you are asking "How do I do that? How do I stop?" Right???? Did I miss anything??

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>To give an example, I've already taken her to work when she overslept 'cause her boyfriend had been over the night before! Staying out of work is an old habit of hers, as is oversleeping, and I worry that she'll lose her job. When I'm around her, she thinks nothing of changing (her clothes) in front of me, she will also come out of the shower and parade past me naked, I believe to control me. I have now thought about all this, and I need to make a clean break from her, for my own sanity. This has happened over the past few weeks, and before that I was FINE. I know what I have to do, it's just the doing that's so damned difficult! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Muzohead! Use me once, shame on you--but use me twice, shame on me. Come on, man. Be real with yourself. PART of this is that she is getting what she wants. She is a grown woman who went out too late with another man, but she's knows she can depend on you to "rescue" her and drive her to work and "save" her from losing her job. The other PART of this is that you are also getting what you want. You don't really WANT to completely never hear from her again. You want to be the rescuer and you want to save her.

Here's the problem with that set up. You have the weight of the world on your shoulders because you are responsible for HER behavior, and she has NO personal responsibility because if she stays out too late with another man and you tell her you won't drive her to work, she can always blame YOU for her problems.

Dude you are an intelligent, sensitive man. You know the answer to this.

When she calls you to chat, she lost that privilege when she left you for another man. Period. If she wants the pleasure of chatting with you, she needs to treat you MUCH better--and that's not being mean, that's just respecting yourself. When she asks you to run her an errand or do her a favor, she lost that privilege when she left you for another man. Period. Just say, "No." When she asks you to drive her to work, she lost that privilege when she left you for another man. Period. Just say "No." When she loses her job because she overslept because her boyfriend was over all night, then SHE has to figure out how to get a job and pay her bills--she lost the privilege of leaning on you when she left you for another man. Period. When you enter her house, tell her that it is no longer appropriate for her to change or be naked in front of you--set that boundary out loud--and then if she changes in front of you, RUN out of the house. Period.

Muzo, I'm not trying to be cranky here or preach at you. I just know that you are a smart man and I know that you know the answer to this! I know that you know she is using you, and nothing more. Stand up for yourself--don't let her use you. You are worthy of respect and decent treatment...not this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Any ideas or encouragement would be welcomed.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now, having said all of that, let me tell you that I did not even listen to my own advice until just recently. I was in contact with my stbxH on almost a daily basis (kids, business, etc.) and I FREQUENTLY tried to do something nice for him when in return he would be mean to me. I kept finding myself being used and then getting raged at for it!

That's when I realized I was not detached from him. I thought about him all the time and talked about him all the time too. When I saw that I was still entangled with him, that's when I knew what I had to do: change my own self. No matter what I do, I can not "make" him stop asking for me to do him favors and "be nice" (when I know the consequence will be more anger)...but I CAN stop ME from doing the favors and from "being nice." If he messes himself up, I can not rescue him. If he makes a bad decision, I can not "do him a favor" and cover his tracks. I need to LET HIM FACE WHAT HAPPENS WHEN HE ACTS LIKE THAT. What I CAN do is stop ME!!

So, I thought about it and I made a conscious effort and decision to stop myself. I think about him and talk about him so often during the day that I have to consciously stop myself and CHANGE what I'm thinking about. I am so used to being nice and saying yes, that I have to physically "buy some time" until I can be more logical and decide yes or no--and I also have to physically practice saying no. Furthermore, I usually have to say "no" several times before he hears it! Frankly, I had to admit to myself that I was addicted to him!! I even wrote on my mirror that "I am in recovery" to remind myself to go cold turkey and get through the withdrawal of detaching from him.

Muzo, it isn't easy. I'm not trying to be judgmental, because I have been where you are. The fact of the matter is that it is going to be HARD and it is going to HURT a little to go cold turkey and stop being in contact with her...to go cold turkey and stop rescuing her...to go cold turkey and let her go. But you know it and I know it...you have to do it.

Please stay in touch with us here while you go through this, okay? {{{{{HUGS}}}}} to you, and muzo--you can do it. Love yourself and DO IT!!

CJ

Guys,
Thanks for all the responses.
Some of my female friends have been saying the same thing to me since 2yrs BEFORE the divorce, and also up to now. One friend of mine in particular, is already exasperated & frustrated by my repeated patterns of behaviour regarding my EX. You know, what's interesting, is that my male friends are not not quite as vocal about getting me to break out of this mode: I think it has something to do with the instinct to protect (the ex)and ensure the welfare of the children, or just lack of insite into the female psyche. I don't know. All I know is, the women are totally almost disgusted with they way I continue to be used, they will tell me directly. I have in the past made excuses on my exW's behalf.
TOPIE25:
Thanks for the post-it tip. I need practical things like that that I can do daily.
MAW64:
Yeah, you're right about the co-pendency thing...I've thought about it a lot. Both myself and the EX were guilty during our marriage, and now I'm perpetuating it.
NPIGA:
Hey, thanks for adding your voice.I need a smart smack about the head, is what I need. Hope you cope OK with personal crisis in your life.
FaithfulWife:
Thanks so much for taking the time out and sharing your experience, and for all the useful practical advice.
"She lost the priveledge when she ........" .......YES, I said EXACTLY the same thing to myself many times over.
You seem to know precisely what it is that is the conflict within me. You have echoed & mirrored my thoughts exactly. This is some of the support & affirmation that I needed to strengthen my resolve.
You are SO right. I DO want to be the one to rescue her, it's uncanny how you could know that. Part of the reason that I continue, is that I AM addicted to her.
The "being nice" thing:.....yes, I was raised & taught to be "nice", and in fact, my exW actually TELLS me, when I say "NO", that I am being "nasty", and "vindictive", and in this way she has managed to control me up to now. My exW NEVER apologises, and sometimes, when I think she has sensed that I am close to pulling away, she has actually apologised, but I feel not at all sincerely, merely as a means of manipulating me. When I have had these thoughts in the past, I feel guilty for thinking so badly of her, and not forgiving her, ...since she has , after all, apologised(!)

What I need now, at this point, is someone who I can hold myself accountable to, like an alcoholic, to prevent me from "back-sliding". Problem is, my good female friends are already P-O'd with me for my past behaviour, and inability to do this before. They don't wanna know, if you know what I mean? They just assume I'll do the same idiotic thing again & again.

Wish me luck. Thanks again, all.
muzohead

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by muzohead:
<strong>Guys,
Thanks for all the responses. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Dude...I am a CHICK, not a guy. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> Heehee.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>You seem to know precisely what it is that is the conflict within me. You have echoed & mirrored my thoughts exactly. This is some of the support & affirmation that I needed to strengthen my resolve. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I only echoed & mirrored because I have the exact same conflict within myself. I recognized it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> You are SO right. I DO want to be the one to rescue her, it's uncanny how you could know that. Part of the reason that I continue, is that I AM addicted to her. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yep. I think that's partially a guy/girl thing and partially a codependent thing. Guys want to rescue the damsel in distress, and girls want the knight in shining armor. HOWEVER, I think eventually those roles turn counterproductive and unhealthy. You ARE addicted to her, and if you think of any other addiction that's easier to visualize (like drinking or drugs) you know as well as I do that the first things you need to do are admit you have a problem and then go cold turkey.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> The "being nice" thing:.....yes, I was raised & taught to be "nice", and in fact, my exW actually TELLS me, when I say "NO", that I am being "nasty", and "vindictive", and in this way she has managed to control me up to now. My exW NEVER apologises, and sometimes, when I think she has sensed that I am close to pulling away, she has actually apologised, but I feel not at all sincerely, merely as a means of manipulating me. When I have had these thoughts in the past, I feel guilty for thinking so badly of her, and not forgiving her, ...since she has , after all, apologised(!) </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ahh...but my friend there is a difference between saying empty words to get what you want, and true repentance and sorrowing a godly sorrow. If I were to inadvertantly do something to hurt you, and you told me about how much I hurt you, a REAL apology would include R.E.P.S.: (R)esponsibility (in other words, I don't blame you); (E)mpathy for your pain; (P)lan to change and never do it again becasue I don't want to hurt someone I care for; and (S)aftey/security--allowing the hurt person to do what they need to do to feel safe and heal. Have you EVER had a REPS apology?? If not, then it was just manipulation, pure and simple.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> What I need now, at this point, is someone who I can hold myself accountable to, like an alcoholic, to prevent me from "back-sliding". Problem is, my good female friends are already P-O'd with me for my past behaviour, and inability to do this before. They don't wanna know, if you know what I mean? They just assume I'll do the same idiotic thing again & again. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you'd like, contact me at my email address. Maybe you and I can establish some rules/boundaries and help each other to go cold turkey, to avoid the temptation to call, and to give each other the COURAGE to just say "no"!!

CJ

<small>[ March 10, 2003, 11:45 PM: Message edited by: FaithfulWife ]</small>

I thought of a much-belated "no-contact" letter
Drop off the kids and leave. Pick up the kids and leave. You don't need to go into the house.

If she calls and starts talking about things other than the kids, tell her you have things to do, goodbye.

Staying out of work is an old habit of hers, as is oversleeping, and I worry that she'll lose her job.
So?

Any ideas or encouragement would be welcomed.
About the only thing we can do is to say, "don't do it." If you don't get yourself into a situation where this can happen, then it can't happen. For instance, she cannot parade past you unless you are in the house waiting around, chatting and doing things.

If you'd like, contact me at my email address: xxx@somewhere.com. Maybe you and I can establish some rules/boundaries and help each other to go cold turkey, to avoid the temptation to call, and to give each other the COURAGE to just say "no"!!
You shouldn't be emailing a single guy about marriage problems while still married.

Muzo:

I am almost in favor now of a no contact letter written. You have to walk the walk and talk the talk to be taken seriously. And if she oversleeps and loses her job so be it. Remember: You are not her eyes and ears. You are not charged anymore with being the partner with stake in her well being. You only have regard for her as a co parent now. Yea it stinks. Darth even tried up until a couple of mo's ago to come over and attempt to stay the night. No more no sir. Been there and done that thing and not wanting any more.

Remember, she has to hit rock bottom before anything good can change. Maybe a little sleeping late with her squeeze now will help her sink faster and wake up. But you have to movew ahead with life whether she wakes UP OR NOT. That is it. That is your new charge. I had to do it. Alot here have had to do the same. You can do it. You are a good guy and that doesn't mean that not enabling her, YES I SAID ENABLING HER AWFUL AND DESTRUCTIVE CHOICES (JOB, ADULTERY, PARADING AROUND IN HER BIRTHDAY SUIT ETC) HAVE TO END NOW. Plus YOU NEED CLOSURE AND HAVE TO GET THAT BEFORE YOU CAN MOVE ON. How can you move on if she's still hanging onto your coattail? You're stuck in neutral. Am using car lingo here b/c you're a guy...hee hee..

But you need to get the stick outta neutral and into overdrive and red line it and take off. Move on and let her know. Dr. pHil says that we should always give notice of our new deals. That means a warning in the form of a no contact letter to Ms. Lingerie Model that you are no longer requesting a personal showcase. She has gotta see that you are your own person.

Keep your head held high. You are a great person!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Chris (CA123):
<strong> You shouldn't be emailing a single guy about marriage problems while still married.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ouch, Chris--I didn't realize He died and appointed you God! No matter what YOU believe about emailing a single guy while still married, I'm sorry to tell you that you can not Dictate to others your spiritual beliefs.

I get to speak straight to God myself, thank you. I get to believe what I believe, and you don't get to "should" on me.

Bye!

CJ

muzo,

Man, what head-games at that!

You need to find ways of not getting caught in her web, and boy does it sound like a spider spinning a web.

Hang tough! Also, I know you are concerned about who she is seeing but remember it will only hurt you when you find out things you weren't meant to know. It will not change anything. Telling the kids will not change anything either, it will just make them angry at her, angry at you and angry with him. Then she will be angry with you and there will be tension all around, but the kids or no one else will force her to stop seeing this person. It will just continue.

As far as the helping her get to work. Have you thought perhaps that is being a co-dependent? Let her make her mistakes. I was such a co-dependent during my ex's alcohol abuse, until I found Al-Anon.

The conversations she wants with you every day is meeting her EN, an EN she must not be getting from others. I'd cut her short each time and tell her you don't have time for chit-chat.

Take care and good luck with distancing yourself.

ANNA

Thanks again, guys, (I've always thought of "chicks" as being a bit derogatory) & gals for the concern & input
Faithfulwife:
Much of what I wrote is because I'm slowly starting to realise certain things & see things in their true light. Someone wrote a long article on abuse in 41's thread, and some of it struck home to me. For the longest time I've refused to believe that some of my exW's behaviour is abusive (like the manipulation by hollow apology thing), she always justifies it by saying that's "just how I am". The sad thing is, she does it with the kids AS well. It's like, "well, I said I was SORRY!!" in a semi-aggressive, non-repentant way, as if saying it should FORCE them to accept it, as if "sorry" as a word had some magical quality to it.
Thanks for the offer to email you- you'll be hearing from me.
I hope you're making progress on your side with the addictive behaviour thing as well.

CHRIS:
Thanks for the hard-core, no-nonsense approach. I need some of that. Like Faithfulwife says, the 2X4 about the head!
Yeah, of course you're right; the one behaviour leads to, or enables the other. But if I weren't an addict, I wouldn't need help, would I?
Please don't fight with CJ about the e-mail thing: I know both you guys are swell & caring people who each want to help in your own way. I appreciate both.

PEACHY:
You know, you never fail to crack me up with your sense of humour & wacky way of looking at things, no matter what the situation! It DOES relieve the tension somewhat. Thanks.
''Ms Lingerie model?"...heh heh
Yeah, the only reason I'm vacillating about the letter thing, is that I know it will produce a FLOOD of contact from her, attempting to get me to change my mind, or pursuade me that the close friendship between us is a good thing. I have before set boundaries with her, it's not as if I haven't tried. She merely goes all out to "win" me back. An extreme example was her luring me back into her bed when I was seeing someone (not sleeping with her). She literally BEGGED me, and made me promise not to tell anyone. Our secret. I know, she didn't have a GUN to my head, but she didn't need one, I guess. I eventually told my GF at the time, I realised the exW would be able to control me if I didn't. So that was the end of THAT.
Anyway, what I need most of all, is a means of dealing with the inevitable response to whatever my course of action. Since this is when I weaken. Thanks for the offer to e-mail.

Anna2000:
I know the rhetoric, it's a case of formulating and STICKING to a plan of action. Yeah, it's definitely a co-dependency thing as well.
As for telling the kids: No, I was merely venting: I would never do that to them. She offers me lunch when I visit the kids, or drop them off. She even wants to go out for drinks with me. She gets scraps of attention from her BF, since he has his own family, and her typical visit from him is a Monday or Tuesday, so she's lonely the rest of the time. Stupid woman. You're right, I am picking up the slack, and fulfilling her EN's when it's handy for her.

muzohead

muzo, I can only echo what others have already said. I also know what it's like to alienate my friends because of my obsession with STBXH. I, too, felt responsible for my H. I nursed him through alcoholism and drug abuse 13 years ago, through losing and finally regaining his professional license, and then when he lost his sobriety again, I did everything to help him hang onto his position in our business and to urge him to get back into recovery. I failed miserably as he seems bound and determined to self-destruct. I'm still supporting him though he hasn't worked for over two years and I haven't seen him in almost a year. I turned, eventually, to Al-Anon and counseling to help me deal with my codependency issues.

Since my H was intermittently stringing me along with promises to get sober, end A, and come home, and then lashing out at me with verbal abuse, threats and intimidation, I finally got a restraining order and went to complete no contact. I'm not in plan B. This is an "it's over" no contact for my own benefit, no letter this time, no apologies, or promises to try to make things better if he chooses to give up the A and come back.

In my case there are no kids, which makes that much easier. Since you have to see and talk to hyour exW to some extent because of the kids, you could try setting boundaries one at a time, e.g. no I can't drive you to work, I don't have time to chat, etc. Have you tried counseling? Also, there's a 12-step group called CoDA - codependents anonymous - that deals with codependency issues without the drugs and alcohol requirement.

muzohead, you've been given pretty good advice from everyone previous. I agree with a no contact situation... it does make it easier to step away and look at things with a safety space around you. As long as one stays entangled with the other person, it is hard to really get a good look at what is happening.

When I first wrote my no contact letter over 2 years ago, it about killed me, cause I meant it; but ex laughed it off and showed up the next morning with donuts for the girls and I. I was definitely co-dependent and a doormat to boot <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> When I finally got some legal enforcement behind me, he left us alone, but he pushes the limit every chance he gets.

Do what you have to do and live your life for YOU! Good thoughts headed your way for the times ahead <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Lori

Hey muzo,

No fighting here. I was simply pointing out some proper boundaries (as you noticed) and it got turned into??? I don't know what.

fw,
Sorry about the misunderstanding. Don't know where you got all the religious fervor from. I don't believe I even implied anything slightly religious in my post.

Ouch, Chris--I didn't realize He died and appointed you God!
By "He", I'm guessing your referring to God? He didn't appoint me anything and I'm not assuming any role.

No matter what YOU believe about emailing a single guy while still married, I'm sorry to tell you that you can not Dictate to others your spiritual beliefs.
? I'm not dictating nor even suggesting ANY spiritual beliefs. Don't know where you got that idea.

As far as emailing, that is common sense. You're married.

I get to speak straight to God myself, thank you. I get to believe what I believe, and you don't get to "should" on me.
I'm not really concerned with what your spiritual/religious leanings are. I have no idea where you got that idea.

Just trying to be helpful and point out ways to avoid having people get hurt by putting themselves in certain situations.

<small>[ March 10, 2003, 11:36 PM: Message edited by: Chris (CA123) ]</small>

Okay...major miscommunications here. I humbly apologize and back up, because now looking back on my post it sounds darn nasty! Who was that witchy woman??

Chris, for heaven's sake I know you and respect you--not that we are buddies or anything, but I've been around enough to see your posts, and I suspect you know a little about me too. I was trying to point out to you, in a tongue-in-cheek way, that you "shoulded" on me. But the tongue was lost in the cheek when it got put into a post.

Chris, I apologize to you because my reply really did sound nasty. I knew the state of mind I was in, but over the waves like this, you did not. I hope I did not hurt or offend you because of course you are right in pointing out that there needs to be propriety and strict boundaries. As I said before, I respect you and your opinions as being a higher standard for conduct.

I'll be blunt here. I have found a few programs, books, groups etc. to be very helpful to me in my path to BEGIN recovery, but to go over some of those things in public on a forum like this might be...well...too public. I'd say Step One, then find a sponsor (yes, a GUY), then a group. Know what I mean??

My goodness! Hasn't anyone ever told you "Who died and made you God?" I've heard that a thousand times, so maybe I got calloused to it. I thought that was a little too cranky sounding so I wrote "He" with the capital H and that He appointed you. See the awful thing is that if I read this the way that I think you read it, I can see where it sounds really mean, and I feel sad for that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Just trying to be helpful and point out ways to avoid having people get hurt by putting themselves in certain situations.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course you were! The whole point of this entire site, Marriage Builders, is to build and recover marriages...and if that is impossible, to behave properly and not put ourselves into harm's way! Geez, I know myself well enough to know where my "limits" are and how to protect myself from my own self WAY before those limits. This is just my humble opinion, but I want to avoid even the APPEARANCE of wrongdoing because that is the standard to which I hold myself.

* * * * *
muzo, likewise I apologize to you too for causing you anxiety that we might fight about the email thing. No fighting here either (backing away with hands in the air). I can't speak for Chris, but I'm not here to start something or to engage in something or do anything other than help ya out man. In the future, I think I'll try to add more "sticking out the tongue" emoticons or more heehee's or something. Dude, I try, because I have that sort of ribbing, dry sense of humor, but lots of times people don't get it or take it wrong--especially over the internet.

Oh, Lord! Some of these old, bad habits are so hard to break.

Could someone please help me get this foot out of my mouth?????? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

CJ

LetsTry:
Thanks for sharing your experience. It helps to draw the parallel to the more visible problems, like the one you have with the alcoholic ex., so as to see the reality of it. It creeps up slowly on you, and sucks you in gradually, until (heaven forbid) you accept it as being "normal". I'm glad you were finally able to break free. yes, I have thought about counselling, or at least, group therapy such as a divorce support group, or something. I'll let you know how that goes.
Bangarra:
Thanks for the thought on Good Times Ahead! I need to be reminded. I've come a long way, but a way still to go.
MAW64:
OMIGOSH! I re-read my post from the start, and realised I skipped your response. So sorry!
If there was ever one thing which my exW has used & used again, is that we were best friends before we became involved, and she still wants that now. Yes, it's true, we like each other a LOT. I haven't found anyone else I can be that close to yet, and I miss that. I know she misses that too. Both of us miss each other like hell, BUT she has made a choice, hasn't she? (at least I HAVE to keep saying that to myself)
Sanity? yeah, I'm glad I'm not alone in that struggle, was beginning to wonder....
She does the push-pull thing so well, just enough to keep me around, and see if she still has the magic over me. Well, frankly I'm tired of it, and need to get on with my life. ..or GET a life! as Dr Phil would say.

muzohead

CHRIS & FAITHFUL:

Hugs & peace to both of you.
I wrote a response to Chris, but after seeing CJ's, decided not to post it.
Difference of opinion is still allowed, isn't it?

muzohead

No worries! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I have made posts before with every intention of it being tongue-in-cheek only to find it was received foot-in-mouth.

The emoticons DO help (usually) when trying to do this. Humor is great and I USUALLY do get it. But as you see, sometimes things are misread.

Ain't life grand? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />