He said this last night. It was a shock. I knew we were having problems, he's been distant.<P>What do I do?<P>We've been married several years. I tend to be depressed, and I have a stressful job. He says I resent him because he has not had as hard a time in our marriage as I have.<P>I would do anything for him. I get "I don't know" when I ask if he's willing to try working things out. He says I've changed. Well, we all change.<p>[This message has been edited by anxious (edited May 08, 2001).]

Hi!<P>When I read your post, I knew I had to respond. I'm in the same boat and hope I can help, at least a little.<P>Let me tell you a bit about my situation, so you know where I'm coming from. My husband and I have been married 23 years and have two kids, one living at home yet (nine yrs. old). About 18 months ago, I noticed that my husband seemed more distant. He never touched me any more except for sex; when I asked him about it, which I did maybe four or five times over the course of a year, he said I was imagining things, that of course he still hugged me, etc. He just didn't believe me!<P>Last August he told me he didn't think he loved me anymore. I was devestated. It's pretty tough living with someone who doesn't really love you anymore, and I figured if he didn't know, then the love wasn't there. As the months went by, I becvame convinced of it. We have no sex life, sleep in separate beds (mostly because I have sleep disorders that keep him awake, never hug or kiss. We are cordial, even chummy at times, but that essential bond is gone. Does any of this sound familiar?<P>You still have lots of reason to hope that your marriage can be revived. Have you read the "Basic Concepts" section of this website? If you haven't, do so right away. Dr. Harley's concepts can show you (and your husband, if he cares to learn) what caused your husband's feelings of love to diminish and how to get your marriage back on track. My advice is to pay particular attention to "Love Busters" and the Emotional Needs Questionnaire. I wish I'd done this earlier, as it would have saved both my husband and me a lot of heartache.<P>Both my husband and I have hope that we can bail out our marriage, and my husband has finally agreed to counseling (on certain conditions). I am broaching Dr. Harley's methods very slowly, as my husband is "allergic" to this kind of thing. I wish I'd known about Dr. Harley's techniques sooner, <P>I wish you and your husband the very best. Please keep posting and let us know how you're doing.<P>belle

He has said he will try, but not that he will try to force anything. He still won't let me get close to him in an intimate way, not even a peck on the cheek, much less a hug. Counseling is out, he said. He wants space, but how can we work on things if he isn't around when I'm available?He says he sees me as a friend, and whatever happens he wants to continue being friends, that's even more hurtful, surprisingly. It tells me he won't try for us hard enough. Dr. Harvey didn't have anything to say on what happens when the husband is the one who gives up on love. I feel like i'm on borrowed time.

Your last post gave me much to mull over. <P>I don't know what's going on inside your husband's head, and he may not know. It sounds like he's pretty comfortable with where he is right now. That's where my husband is, too. Wanting a friendship instead of a marriage does not relieve your husband of his responsibilities to you, however. Friendship has its own responsibilities. Heck, if your H. accidentally ran over the neighbor's cat, he'd surely get out of the car and see if there was anything he could do for the poor creature, wouldn't he? He owes at least that much to you.<P>That means that he needs to help you through this, even IF he doesn't have any desire to stay in a romantic relationship with you. He may find that as the two of you sort this out, he really does want the marriage to work.<P>Dr. Harley does address the issue of situations in which the husband loses interest (Check out the Q&A section). You need to know what your husband's needs are (hence the Emotional Needs Questionaire), and what happened to make him lose interest in you (Love Busters). Your husband may not care to look into this; he might even prefer not to, but he owes it to you to do so, and if he wants to stay friends, he needs to put a little effort into the friendship.<P>Does this make sense? Could you approach him with these points? <P>Let me know. I'll be thinking of you and wondering how you're doing.

We were approaching this point about two years ago and snapped out of it and actually marriage is really fun and exciting right now. Although deep down I am still afraid of falling back into the old trap...the reason I am hangin out here at MB.<P>A few suggestions:<BR>1. Figure out the activities your H likes and try to participate in those.<BR>2. Revive things you enjoyed doing together in the past.<BR>3. Spend time talking to him about his work and your work. Try to understand each other's inner feelings.<BR>4. Surprise him with something unpredictable. Plan a surprise weekend away, a dinner at a romantic inn, candleligt and wine in your bedroom... whatever works for you. You will have to be somewhat adventurous and risk rejection but give it a try.<BR>5. Go see interesting or provocative movies and talk from there. Can you believe it we actually found ourselves communicating our deeper feelings after seeing films like Eyes Wide Shut and An American Beauty?<P>Good luck.... its hard to move away from inertia. Counseling and reading HNHN may be difficult for your H to get to right now. But you can at least try to shake up things.<P>Katie

Those are great ideas, Katie. They're sure worth a shot. Hopefully, ANxious's husband is interested enough in being friends to want to share a weekend away together. If he's not comfortable with that and refuses to go, the other suggestions may still work. Sometimes a change in location can facilitate conversation, and some people are more comfortable if they're doing something like taking a walk or putting together a jigsaw puzzle or while they're talking. <P>My husband and I have some good talks despite our somewhat estranged relationship, but he would never consent to going away together for a weekend, and it would probably take a lot of convincing to get him to go out just the two of us. If a marriage has hit a lull, this kind of approach would probably be terrific. In my situation, "lull" would definitely be an understatement.<P>Whatever gets you to the point in which the two of you can discuss emotional needs is okay in my book, whether it's via trying to woo him back or standing up for your own needs. But don't neglect to take care of yourself, Anxious. I've been learning to do that myself, and it's definitely helpful.<P>

Hi guys,<P>Wow...I usually don't even look on this forum but for some reason I did today, I usually lurk and post once in awhile on EN, GQ, and (unfortunately) the Infidelity forums. I posted quite abit beginning last July up until about February.<P>I have to say that my H. gave me the same "I love you, but am no longer in love with you" speech last July and people posted with the same kind of comments and advice as what is posted here. I immediately counseled with Dr. Harley and after my second session he told me he thought my H. was having an affair. I asked my H. and he denied it. I thought he was depressed and I tried everything to fix my marriage. Finally in January he confessed to his PA--I was completely shocked. Please keep in mind that this too, could be the case with your spouses, I hope not, but that speech is known to be a classic clue to us BS's. <P>If I could give you some advice I would say to keep your eyes and ears open and be suspicious. Believe that your spouse is capable of an affair-I never did and therefore did not find out about it until much later.<P>My H. is unsure of what he wants (still) and I have given him a deadline of this Sunday to decide. The sooner you find out about an affair, the better.<P>I think there is an older post in GQ or Infidelity or maybe even an article by Dr. Harley indicating several signs your spouse is having an affair--if I find it I'll post again here where it is.<P>Good Luck!

Thanks, Wifeofcop! I'm sure you're right. That suspicion has gone through my mind, and it's a healthy suspicion, I think. In my case, I'm about 95% sure my husband is not having an affair, not out of simple blind faith but because of experience. He had a one night stand many years ago and told me about it. The whole experience was a miserable one for him, though of course, I was in wrenching pain. Anyway, he's been honest about other painful-to-discuss things, and we've had some straight-up talks about this recently.<P>Even if a husband ISN'T having an affair at such a time. he's certainly more vulnerable at this time. I'm going to keep my eyes open. Thanks again for the heads-up!<P>Anxious, what happened to you? Are you still out there?

Still here. Counseling out. Not eating much. Blah, blah, blah.

I'm glad you're getting counseling. Do you have friends who can give you support?

Um, not getting counseling. Not having close friends outside the marriage is one of our problems, alas.<P>Not gettin' enough, from someone other than each other, you might say. <P>I should change my name to Just Depressed. It suits me. That's how I am to hear others describe me, anyway. Life kicks you in the nuts and you get over it. You don't get a vascectomy.

About 5 years ago I told my W the same thing. I was wrestling with a lot of emotion and couldn't figure out what I wanted to do. I didn't believe in divorce, but yet I didn't feel I could continue living a lie with my W. We entered counseling and I was a total jerk for about four weeks, I mean I went, but I didn't give an inch until finally my W drew a line, stood up to me and said that she was tired and demanded that I make a decision, either I was in or out, but she couldn't take it anymore. I decided I was in, and have worked for our marriage ever since. Be warned, this is a very DANGEROUS tactic and only one that should be used if you are truly prepared for the worst case scenario. But, I think there comes a time when this must be done when a spouse is "waivering" for an extended period of time. Sometimes men need to whacked up side the head with a 2x4 in order to get the message. Before, you try this though, seek counselling, look at yourself and try to find areas where maybe you can improve and show him that you care by setting an example. <P>Good luck, and keep posting.<p>[This message has been edited by Rocko (edited May 18, 2001).]

I am in the middle of what I hope to be the recovery from the same situation......<P>my wife has moved back in the house and we are still in counseling, but I think she still doesn't feel the "love" she thinks she should for me.....she is really mopey and non-committal, I have stopped saying I love you to her because it makes her feel guilty....I do nice things for her and she feels guilty, I clean the house and she feels guilty...etc etc etc....<P>She says that she thinks I should be with someone who feels the same way about me as I do about her, we have stopped talking about the "love" situation for now, but I am getting tired of being the giver all the time without any signs of change.....Patience is one of my biggest issues, in that I don't have any....<P>For those who have been through this, how long did it take? what am I in for really? did your spouse come around all of the sudden one day or was it a long process? what can I do???<P>I am feeling like I should draw a line, but I fear that will just give her the excuse she wants to leave again.....I am busy trying very hard to meet her emotional needs and be the giver, but it's really draining me....

It's good to hear from some men. I don't get much of an explanation from my husband. He just says a lot of things over the years have built up. In particular, the last few months, and my jealousy over his new friend who happens to be a 20-year-old girl, was the straw that broke the camel's back.

My wife works with almost all Men.....<P>when we were separated she dated one of them and wonders why I have a jealous streak.....nothing happened, but still the threat is very real to me and she thinks I over react to it....<P>

I personally think it is very selfish behavior to be upset that your spouse might be jealous, especially if an affair has happened.....<P>there was no affair that I know of in my situation except for an emotional affair. still I am confused as to why someone would be so offended by a spouse that is jealous of worried about other people in their significant others lives....if it gets out of hand I could see, but at minimum we should be able to talk to each other wouldn't you think??<P>I know I am preaching to the chior, but it just seems so obvious sometimes, yet it still plagues us.....

I'm new to this site and after reading some of the posts feel like I fit right in. I too got the " I love you but I'm not in love with you ." I have been married for 15 years and yes times were tough but NEVER did I think he would leave me.He has moved out but is over alot. (both of our choices) I really want this marriage to be saved, I can't imagine my life without him in it. What is my next step? I've read the basic concepts and printed out the questionaires. Do I just ask him to read them or do I go ahead and try to work on this myself? Any feedback will be appreciated... Help please <p>[This message has been edited by i'mhoping (edited May 21, 2001).]

Dear Anxious - <P>"I should change my name to Just Depressed. It suits me. That's how I am to hear others describe me, anyway. Life kicks you in the nuts and you get over it. You don't get a vascectomy."<P>Your quote made me smile - I'm feel much the same way. Fully cognizant of what free advice is usually worth (!), here's mine:<P>Start taking vitamin B-complex (50 mg., three times a day). I and many of my friends do so to allieviate stress, and it works wonders. Like Vit. C, it is water soluble, so you don't have to worry about taking too much - if you do, it would be "eliminated". <P>Also, start exercising three times a week - anything, just sweat for at least 45 min. - it has an incredible effect on mood. If you can afford it, try to get one massage per week - results in great relaxation, measurable reduction in cortisol (the stress hormone that builds up) and a mesurably higher immune system!<P>Then tell your H you're sore and would he be interested in swapping oil massages? ("I'm not trying to push the intimacy envelope, honey, I'm just sore - really!")<P>If you feel your stressful job is negatively impacting your marriage, why don't you change or scale down your job?<P>I was very concerned to read that neither you or your husband have close friends. Not to seem thick, but I actually don't understand how that is possible... Did you move far from where you grew up? Aren't active beyond work? Anyway, develop some friends. Join a club for a hobby that interests you, find a person or two that you enjoy, and ask them out to lunch - it's that simple! Having a real support group of your own friends who love you and are loyal to you is invaluable.<P>Also, a powerful "anti-depression" trick I've learned is to recall what activities gave you joy before you were 20 years old or so. Painting? Horseback riding? Running? Force yourself, if necessary, to engage in one or more of those activities again. If nothing else, the sheer change of pace clears your head and puts a smile on your face.<P>I would try to do whatever you can to get your H to fill out the EN Questionnaire. It sounds to me as if both of you have ignored each other's needs for a long time until intimacy has disapated and he's found someone else to fill at least one of those needs...<P>The two of you really can find intimacy and love feelings again - revisit what brought you together in the first place! Can you engage (Plan A) in any of the behaviors you know he loved long ago? Although I know it's easy to say, concentrate on the positives, maximize them.<P>I found it odd that you said your H wouldn't go out with you or go away for a weekend with you, and yet he doesn't have close friends with whom he socializes? Do you both just work and then stay home? If so, sounds like there might be a rut to climb out of! <P>Ask your H why he loved you initially. Write the answers down. Then ask which of those qualities or characteristics he feels you no longer have. Might be eye-opening? If he objects to this or the EN Questionnaire, just tell him that regardless of what ends up happening to the two of you, you want to give the best shot you can to your marriage and to pleasing him, because you respect him and the history you've shared...<P>When you say he's willing to try, but not too hard, and won't go to counseling - ARGH! Then ask him to respect YOU by filling out the EN form so you can try to (Plan A) please him more...<P>Try to become yourself the person you would want to be with. Pull up those bootstraps and get out in the world on weekends, yes, even alone, and find some joy for yourself.<P>I know I've mentioned many suggestions that may seem to focus on you, not your H. However, I've found that being happier myself does wonders for my relationship, makes me more attractive and fun to be around, and more strong and resiliant to relationship pressures. Don't look to your husband for your every need - it's impossible and puts way too much pressure on him.<P>Lastly "his new friend who happens to be a 20-year-old girl" ... Hello? Yup, sounds like trouble to me. Before the thing blows up, you could try inviting her over for dinner and becoming friends w. her yourself - keep your friends close, and your enemies closer! I know, I know, but the more you nag him about it the more time he's probably going to spend w. her... It is likely that the 20 yr. old knows the fire she's might be playing with at all...<P>Does your H even "get" that a close opposite-sex relationship outside of marriage is not acceptable? Or does he just not care?<P>Good luck to you! I'm rooting for you!<P>Gobyfish<p>[This message has been edited by gobyfish (edited May 24, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gobyfish:<BR><B><BR>Then tell your H you're sore and would he be interested in swapping oil massages? ("I'm not trying to push the intimacy envelope, honey, I'm just sore - really!")<P>****Oh, yeah, I can see that happening when he can't stand brushing against me much less full on touching me.****<P>If you feel your stressful job is negatively impacting your marriage, why don't you change or scale down your job?<P>****For so long my job has carried us, we wouldn't be where we are if I hadn't taken it. But it changed my personality (which he doesn't believe, says I must have always been that way). He doesn't like who I've become. He doesn't like our "dynamic" he says.****<P>I was very concerned to read that neither you or your husband have close friends. <P>****We live in an area where we are different from the people here. My best friend moved out of state and we've lost touch until recently. His best friend went away to school, is back, but still has nothing to do with him. He could have gone out and made friends, but he says I didn't approve, was controlling. I just don't think he put his foot down enough. <P>Now, he's holding onto this new girl friend so close that I'm secondary. He compares us, says she's more fun to be with (she's younger). He's younger than me too, but we always had the same ambitions, much of the same likes, etc. Nobody can say anything, anything, against her. His defense, protect mode has been switched on since the beginning.****<P>Also, a powerful "anti-depression" trick I've learned is to recall what activities gave you joy before you were 20 years old or so.<P>****I've been trying to do that, since he told me how he feels. It's hard. He says I've made him my whole world. Well, my job is very time consuming and when I'm not there, sue me, I love being with my husband. But because I love him, I'm willing to change and give him breathing room. He, on the other hand, has been getting interested in all the things that interest his new friend. I've been so jealous that I couldn't appreciate that his horizons are expanding.****<P>It sounds to me as if both of you have ignored each other's needs for a long time until intimacy has disapated and he's found someone else to fill at least one of those needs.<P>****Intimacy was still there until a couple of weeks before he told me. He says he still finds me attractive. But is just friends with me. Jealousy is a strong emotion. Every look or touch he gives her hurts me now.<P>Communication has been the big barrier for us. I do that more, he usually just says and said "whatever you want." But that's not the route to a good relationship.****<P>The two of you really can find intimacy and love feelings again - revisit what brought you together in the first place! <P>****He isn't willing to spend quality time with me or talk about what got us together. When one is willing and the other isn't, what do you do?****<P>I found it odd that you said your H wouldn't go out with you or go away for a weekend with you, and yet he doesn't have close friends with whom he socializes? <P>****He won't do those things now. Before, when we had more free time, we did go out to dinner, see movies, etc. But it was because we didn't have other friends. I guess he would have been doing a lot of those things with them (her) if that had been the case.**** <P>Ask your H why he loved you initially. Write the answers down. Then ask which of those qualities or characteristics he feels you no longer have. Might be eye-opening? If he objects to this or the EN Questionnaire, just tell him that regardless of what ends up happening to the two of you, you want to give the best shot you can to your marriage and to pleasing him, because you respect him and the history you've shared...<P>****I've gone over this with him. I will do anything. I want another chance. He's thinking about it. He says he respects me. But I don't feel as if he's treating me as good as he does his new friend just now.****<P>Try to become yourself the person you would want to be with. Pull up those bootstraps and get out in the world on weekends, yes, even alone, and find some joy for yourself.<P>****Yes, I see this, and so does he. I even went on a errand we both could have done (about a three-hour round trip) by myself the other day, just to show him that I don't always need him holding my hand.****<P>I know I've mentioned many suggestions that may seem to focus on you, not your H. However, I've found that being happier myself does wonders for my relationship, makes me more attractive and fun to be around, and more strong and resiliant to relationship pressures. Don't look to your husband for your every need - it's impossible and puts way too much pressure on him.<P>****I believe this now too. He agreed with you on that point. He's reads this board too. And I'm working on it. But as I told him, my heart is broken and I feel like double barrels were let off into my chest. So being happy and up right now is a struggle. But I'm doing it because I love him with everything I have.<P>He isn't very big on advice from anyone, including me. He's is own person in that way, no one can tell him what to do or tell him how he feels. It's one of the things I love about him, actually.****<P>Lastly "his new friend who happens to be a 20-year-old girl" ... Hello? Yup, sounds like trouble to me.<P>****He has told me nothing but friendship exists between them. She is involved with someone else, albeit a long distance relationship. <P>He has assured me he isn't in love with anyone else. And this is what gives me hope that we can work our problems out. His relationship with his friend is effortless, he says. Our marriage shouldn't be an effort or something we have to work at, he says. <P>I believe everyone changes, and your love for them may not be the same as it was when you said your vows, it's just different. Mine is stronger. His not loving me was a shock.<P>I'm walking around like an open wound. We agreed not to discuss this with anyone else yet. But people can tell that something is wrong with me. My weight loss etc. He just goes on as if nothing is wrong, until we go home at night and I get the strange looks: pity, curiosity, deadness, boredom. <P>Thanks for the advice, anyway.****</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><p>[This message has been edited by anxious (edited May 25, 2001).]

"He's not "in" love anymore."<P>I think it is a big misconception that feelings aren't supposed to ebb and flow, and unrealistic not to expect them to. If your H has really read through this site he understands the "intimacy, conflict, withdrawal" cycle, and understands that he's in the withdrawal cycle, and that nothing will change until he re-enters the conflict mode with a willingness to change that "dynamic" he complains about. <P>He also should understand that the “in love” feeling is experienced in the intimacy mode that he is seemingly is refusing to make the effort to re-enter.<P>*********************<BR>"(Massages) Oh, yeah, I can see that happening when he can't stand brushing against me much less full on touching me."<P>I feel I’m missing something here - there’s a big difference to me between a man who is distant and has withdrawn because he’s tired of trying, and one who is actually repelled by the touch of his wife. Does he feel rejected by you? What is it that he says caused his feelings to change?<P>**********************<BR>"If you feel your stressful job is negatively impacting your marriage, why don't you change or scale down your job?****For so long my job has carried us, we wouldn't be where we are if I hadn't taken it. But it changed my personality (which he doesn't believe, says I must have always been that way). He doesn't like who I've become. He doesn't like our "dynamic" he says."<P>What is the dynamic? Has your job shown you that you are strong, independent and capable, and that has made you more aggressive or demanding in your marriage? Are you too pushy at home now because you’re a boss at work? (I can relate to that as I am that way, esp. after years first in finance, then in law - men do need to be secure themselves to be comfortable with me!) <P>I’ve dealt with that in the past by not talking to my man while I’m at work, and then by taking an hour to switch roles / depressurize / relax back down into a “woman” as soon as I’m home, to ensure that I don’t engage the man in any discussion while I’m in my “manly” “boss” mode... <P>*************************<BR>"(But it changed my personality (which he doesn't believe, says I must have always been that way)."<P>Of course success in a job changes a person's characteristics - you may become more sure of yourself, more willing to ask for what you need, etc. But what the heck is the difference - why would it matter if you were “always” that way or not? <P>If you were interested in pleasing your H, and that’s still true as you change, it shouldn’t impact your H negatively, he should be proud of you, shouldn’t he? Is he saying you’ve become too masculine for him?<P>If you are bringing too many of the negative traits of work home, aren’t as soft or feminine as before, well, that’s up to you - you can leave that at your door when you come home - you’re in a different role there, you should be leaving your work role at work. We all act differently in our different roles and differently toward different people - there’s nothing wrong with that. You both will be “changing” the rest of your lives as your maturity and experiences impact you.<P>Do you have children? When you do, and you get more maternal and distracted and exhausted as a result, is your H again going to say - oh, gee you’ve changed I don’t like it bye? I don’t get it. <P>Did you move for your job and he resents it? Does he resent that your job “carries” you both? After the move you became more dependent on each other - that’s normal! Why doesn’t his best friend hang out with him anymore?<P>*************************<BR>“He could have gone out and made friends, but he says I didn't approve, was controlling. I just don't think he put his foot down enough.”<P>Are you saying that you WERE controlling and that that’s his fault for not standing up to you? This seems like a very telling statement. Is he shutting down because you’re too aggressive with him and he feels pushed up against the wall when you used to argue? What do you mean - HE says I didn’t approve. Did you approve or didn’t you? Were you “controlling” or not?<P>However, well, gee, if he was going out alone you had the right to know with whom and where to do what till when. What I don’t get is why you didn’t go WITH him. The idea is not that HE goes out and finds friends for HIMSELF - the idea is that you both engage in activities together that at least one of you enjoy, and through that, meet new couples to hang out with together. <P>I’ve gotten stuck myself in that rut of movie-dinner, movie-dinner - I think it’s just been laziness, a lack of imagination, that kept us from planning cool activities that would excite us. - Ooh - and that would take effort, wouldn’t it! <P>*************************<BR>"Now, he's holding onto this new girl friend so close that I'm secondary. He compares us, says she's more fun to be with (she's younger). He's younger than me too, but we always had the same ambitions, much of the same likes, etc. Nobody can say anything, anything, against her. His defense, protect mode has been switched on since the beginning."<P>Tell your H to stop directly comparing you to her - it’s incredibly rude. If he likes her so much tell him to move out and have her. He can talk like this but also says he “respects you”? Come on. Tell him to keep telling you the same things in a positive way - e.g., if he says you’re not as fun as she is, it makes you feel bad, and less desirous of wanting to please him because he hurt you. But he could just as easily say, honey, I miss the fun we used to have - how could we recapture it? Same thing in one way, enormous difference in another.<P>The only good thing here, Anxious, is that you can use what he says in a general way - well, aren’t you as fun as you used to be? Is it because of your stressful job? Well, are you and your husband willing to forego the income for you to get a less stressful job so you have more energy to apply to being more fun? How’s that Policy of Joint Agreement going? Isn’t it just a tad unrealistic for H to expect you to be an upbeat playmate if you’re in a very stressful job with long hours? <P>*************************<BR>"It sounds to me as if both of you have ignored each other's needs for a long time until intimacy has dissipated and he's found someone else to fill at least one of those needs.*******Intimacy was still there until a couple of weeks before he told me."<P>What happened to blow the intimacy? Are you saying intimacy in its full sense or just sex? Did you stop the sex or did he? What was the breaking point - was there a big blow-up? Which needs of each of you were and weren’t being met at that point? What was the sticking point?<P>***************************<BR>"Communication has been the big barrier for us. I do that more, he usually just says and said "whatever you want.""<P>Women almost always talk more, if not usually too much! If he’s doing the “whatever” thing, it’s my bet that he feels the two of you aren’t “communicating”, but rather that you’re just attacking him till you’re satisfied, and he’s opting out of that version of communication because he feels he is not being heard himself. <BR>***************************<BR>"He isn't willing to spend quality time with me or talk about what got us together. When one is willing and the other isn't, what do you do?"<P>Why don’t you ask him how long he needs to “think”, and set a reasonable limit together - say two weeks. During that time, you do the Plan A thing (see this web site) - be completely loving toward him, fulfil his needs as you understand them, but don’t be walked on - meaning, still calmly state your opinions, as in “I’m really hurt that you’re going out with 20-year old tonight instead of spending time with me.” After two weeks, or whatever you decide, either you start working on the issues again or he moves out. Get serious, Anxious - life is short. <P>What do YOU see as the problems? What do YOU feel brought you together that was lost somewhere since? <P>***************************<BR>"Before, when we had more free time, we did go out to dinner, see movies, etc. But it was because we didn't have other friends. I guess he would have been doing a lot of those things with them (her) if that had been the case."<P>You’re saying that one or both of you wouldn’t have wanted to spend time with each other if there was an option even “before”? That’s just awful! Why did you guys lose your friendship? Did your job get in the way or what?<P>***************************<BR>"Ask your H why he loved you initially. Write the answers down. Then ask which of those qualities or characteristics he feels you no longer have.****I've gone over this with him. I will do anything. I want another chance. He's thinking about it. He says he respects me. But I don't feel as if he's treating me as good as he does his new friend just now.****"<P>Anxious, please be specific - when you went over this with him, what were his answers? What are the real reasons he’s withdrawn? Please ask your husband to post to this thread too to clarify what’s going on from his perspective.<P>When you say you want another chance, it sounds like you are agreeing that you have screwed up somehow. Is that true?<P>And no, he doesn’t respect you - at least not at the moment. If he respected you he would not allow you to remain in the state of pain you are in. You don’t see someone you value, whom you PRIZE in pain and let it continue - you couldn’t bear it. <P>Is he really punishing you with his 20-year old playmate and silent treatment in response for your real or perceived transgressions or failings and waiting till you back down, beg, and do what he wants? If so, that isn’t respect either. You’re both adults, you are supposed to resolve conflict through compromise, not bullying.<P>Once again, it’s perfectly normal to not feel in love with someone any more. But does he still love you? That would give him the desire to work to get back to the “in love” intimacy state.<P>If he’s not interested in reinvigorating your marriage, why is he still there? Why is he willing to be so disrespectful to your marriage, to you, and to himself? What’s his plan? How long is he willing to live in this limbo?<P>***************************<BR>"his new friend who happens to be a 20-year-old girl" ... Hello? Yup, sounds like trouble to me. ****He has told me nothing but friendship exists between them. She is involved with someone else, albeit a long distance relationship."<P>Whether it’s nothing but friendship doesn’t matter - it is extremely disrespectful to you for him to spend time alone with another woman whether he’s screwing her or whether he loves her or not. He is actively escalating your difficulties because his behavior has you feeling jealous, threatened, etc. (A woman partially scorned.) <P>He is in his taker mode because he feels he can’t get what he needs from you, yet at the same time he is guaranteeing that you are only going to feel less like trying yourself. If you were going out with different men and telling him how much you enjoyed it that would likely get under his skin too, wouldn’t it? Husband, you’re not playing fair. If he wants a divorce, then he should be telling you that, not just going about destroying you instead.<P>*************************<BR>"His relationship with his friend is effortless, he says. Our marriage shouldn't be an effort or something we have to work at, he says."<P>Oh, come on, that is total bull****! Where did your H get the idea that a good marriage should be effortless? What that is valuable in life comes without a lot of work? Do you succeed at work without effort? Do you raise kids well without effort? Do you wash your car well without effort? <P>If your H has read this board, then he has read that the effortless good marriage that he expects is found in the intimacy stage only - and that you are staying in the conflict stage, waiting for him to engage again so that you can regain the intimacy you lack, yet HE is the one keeping that from happening by resting in the withdrawal stage because he’s sick of trying and because it deceptively seems easier - for him - yet that’s not going to lead to long term peace either. He’s just wasting time.<P>*************************<BR>"His relationship with his friend is effortless, he says."<P>Of course, my relationships with my friends are usually effortless too. That’s because we aren’t life partners living together through all of the stresses and everyday conflicts that spouses need to deal with. Eventually, he’ll have a disagreement with his friends too - gee, will he dump them when it isn’t effortless anymore? I think he’s really just stating that he’s tired of conflict. <P>I don’t think that men are as willing as women many times to see that marriage is a job just like any other job. It take time and attention and effort for a job to be done well, for any garden to thrive. <P>As stated elsewhere on this website, the grass isn’t greener on the other side - the grass is simply greener where it’s watered. Right now, he’s using the energy that he should be putting into your marriage (his “water”) on other people - that’s not right, but pretty common. Most men I know just become workaholics to avoid the home “front”.<P>You both need to read “The Three States of Mind in Marriage - How One Spouse Can Lead the other Back to Intimacy” - please paste <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3620_state.html" TARGET=_blank>www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3620_state.html</A> <BR>into the address bar. You need to fill the needs of your H that you are not, and he needs to respond to your demonstrated caring by finding the courage to re-enter the Conflict stage. <P>It sounds like both of you also need to improve your communication skills. In my experience, men can’t take as much or as long of a heated argument as women can - the men don't see arguing as constructive, as leading to something good, they see it as a threat, and their stress response kicks in along with that old flight or fight response. The fight response exhausts guys, so they usually just leave (flight), at least emotionally, which is what your situation sounds like.<P>The woman, however, wants to keep “at it” (and "at" him) until the issue is resolved, and if the guy stays, he’s often exhausted into the “whatever you want” mode just to get us to shut up. Women also often use so many words that guys are simply overwhelmed in to the "whatever" mode too.<P>My point is, try fighting better! Agree to sit down and hold hands while you talk to avoid feeling hostile toward each other. Let him talk first, and uninterrupted, so you can try to discern specifically what he wants to change. Set a time limit on the talk, like a half hour per day. Keep your voices calm - no nagging, whining, begging or raised voices. What you are experiencing is normal, it is not a threat unless you both choose to see it that way.<P>***********************<BR>"I believe everyone changes, and your love for them may not be the same as it was when you said your vows, it's just different. Mine is stronger. His not loving me was a shock."<P>Of course everyone changes, and of course your love matures and changes and varies over time. How could it not? But you didn’t say that he didn’t love you. You said he wasn’t “in love” with you (in the intimacy stage). That’s normal in the withdrawal stage he’s in now. The issue is whether or not he is still committed to your marriage enough to be willing to re-enter the conflict stage to find a new balance in your marriage that suits you BOTH. <P>This re-balancing is supposed to occur in healthy marriages all the time, because the parties have learned to communicate well enough so that they don’t get so frustrated/exhausted by the conflict stage that they enter the withdrawal stage. <P>Your love isn’t necessarily stronger, it just feels like you have more than he because you’re still in the conflict stage - if your situation doesn’t improve and you move into the withdrawal stage, then you won’t feel in love w. your H either.<P>***********************<BR>"I'm walking around like an open wound. We agreed not to discuss this with anyone else yet. But people can tell that something is wrong with me. My weight loss etc. He just goes on as if nothing is wrong, until we go home at night and I get the strange looks: pity, curiosity, deadness, boredom."<P>You’re depressed, so the weight, etc. is all normal in this situation. The problem is it that this situation can’t be allowed to continue. Take that Vit. B Complex, and make sure you’re sleeping enough. Try taking the herb Valerian Root to help you stay calm.<P>Don't beg or whine or plead. If someone doesn't want you, nothing will change their mind, and begging only pushes them away faster. <P>Please return here with a post w. specifics - what does he want that he’s not getting? Will your H post here? Keep the faith - everything you want in your relationship IS possible!<P>gobyfish <p>[This message has been edited by gobyfish (edited May 26, 2001).]