h<p>[This message has been edited by howard (edited August 13, 2001).]

Especially to the last post.<P>I cannot understand this...I can hear the pain but I cannot relate to it.<BR>I thought it might have been a thread about sexual abuse, and so started reading. Not quite what I was expecting.<P>Frankly, I find the attitudes a tad...unrealistic ?<BR>People are sexual beings...your partners were sexual beings well before you came onto the scene. Exploring sexuality is normal and natural, it's how we learn about ourselves.<BR>To be jealous of those people in the past smacks of insecurity...about YOURSELF.<P>I don't know...if all I had to worry about was who my husband had sex with BEFORE we got married I would be one very lucky lady.<P>Please...love your partners. They have not betrayed you, they have not betrayed your marriage vows...be thankful for what you DO have, it's precious.<BR>

John, why are you punishing your wife? If you had wanted a virgin, you could have married one. You chose your wife knowing full well about her past. She trusted you enough to tell you about her past and you married her anyway. Now you are making her pay for something she cannot change. She hasn't hurt you, you are hurting yourself and your marriage? Why? She is not accountable to you for the things she has done, that is her responsibility. And vice-versa. When you decided to marry her it was because of the person she was at that time, and she sounds like a special woman. What you are doing is like wiping up spilled milk with a cloth and not washing it, or throwing it away, but carrying it around with you. And what happens to old milk?, it sours and smells bad! How do stop thinking those thoughts? Decide to! What is going to happen if you don't? You are wasting so much time feeling bad, that time could be better spent on working on your marriage to make it better every day. When you spend so much time looking in the rear-view mirror of life, you forget to realize if you don't look forward {where you want to go, not where you've been] you will crash.

To the last two posters...we have heard all this before. Do I have to quote myself? "You can't understand this unless you've been in our position". Although these posts weren't really directed at me, they are directed to anyone who's shared my position. I'm hopping mad about this now, having had a bad experience at another site. Maybe you two aren't as mean as I'm reading, but I'm going to put my answer to you and anybody like you right now, before this goes on for too long.<P>Yes, we're insecure a little. So are you, and so is anyone who gets defensive about NOT being a virgin. Everybody's insecure no matter which way you slice it. But when you're insecure about having slept around, people give you sympathy and say "Oh, don't listen to those mean people who want to push "their morals" on everyone. It's THEIR fault you feel guilty about what you've done. It's their UNREALISTIC expectations about sexuality that create the problem". <P>That is such a crock.<P>My expectations never had anything to do with marrying a virgin, and I know I had no idea it would ever hurt this much to have to deal with my husband's past. Do I *really* care about his past, enough to make me feel differently about him? No. I love him no matter what, and our relationship is about a lot more than sex, anyway. I get the feeling the guys here love their wives, too, this is just the ONLY place we can vent a little without being surrounded by a world of people who CONDEMN us for our high moral standards. Yes, we judge. You judged us, too. <P>It does no good to say "Get over it" or "Don't think about it".<P>I've discussed all this with my husband, how some people would tell me "just move on and forget it, the past is the past". HE himself says that anyone who told me that is a jerk and should get lost. HE says that if you care about someone, you care about how everything you've ever done affects them, and that if you have a problem with something, you should be able to discuss it. <P>Would you say that to someone who's best friend died? There is a grieving period, which can last forever if you don't deal with it. I'm sick of people saying we've no right to be hurt.<P>Most of all, I'm sick of having to justify my feelings to someone who has never been in my position and has NO empathy for it at all. <P>I just think of what my husband said about people who say stuff like you guys, and am thankful that I have HIM. I hope you never get involved with a guy/girl with less experience than you, I don't want to think about you telling them "get over it". What a terrifically uncaring thing to say.<P>And if I've made myself unpopular, I already did that by not putting out for every boyfriend I ever had. It was worth it then, and it's worth it now. I can't bear the thought of posters hurting anyone who's been in my postion.<P>PG

Amen, my sister! PG you are the sh*t. Thanks for sticking up for the "virgins." <P>I do not care who you are, if you were not a virgin prior to meeting your life partner, you simply cannot understand what we are going through. It pains you to simply think that your wife/husband had sexual intercourse with someone other than yourself, even if it was prior to your marriage. I am not saying that my wife was a bad person for having sex prior to me, I am just saying that the thought of it hurts. This place has been a great outlet for me and has help me way beyond my expectations. This site has helped me to give up on the thoughts of seeking a "revenge affair" (if anyone has read my previous posts on different threads, they know that my wife cheated on me while we were dating). We do need empathy and not the advice of simply "getting over it" or "the past is the past."<P>Thanks PG. I could not of said what you said any better.

PG, and others,<P>You vent on a public forum. Well, meaning people come on and offer you advice under the presumption that your marriage is in trouble for the way you feel about your H/W. You are then hopping mad because they took their time and effort to offer the best they had. Your interpretation is that you are of HIGH MORAL STANDING for you feelings. <P>However, the last time I looked on of the main themes of the New Testament was the act of forgiveness and charity. Something you seem to be short of.<P>If you don't want advice or suggestions, then don't post here. If you do then receive it with grace. You are not compelled to take the advice, but at least be cognizant that it was offered in kindness.<P>As for no body can understand, you are right noone thinks exactly like you do. However, many can understand, if that was not true then you would be compelled to commit every sin in the world and not learn from someone else. If it is just empathy you want, then I strongly suggest that you rely on your religious counsel for that.<P>While people here are very empathetic to many situations, they are mainly posting to you to help. Not just pat you on the back and say "there, there, it will be alright".<P>So Ladies and Gentlemen, what is it? Do you have a problem you would like advice on? Or would you just like to talk to one another and validate your feelings about your spouses?<P>Just let the people here know. You will be left alone.<P>God Bless,<P>JL<p>[This message has been edited by Just Learning (edited July 30, 2001).]

To Just Learning:<P>Let the mud slinging begin! Obviously, you have not read any of PB's posts except for her last one. If you had, you would have seen that her problem with her husband is well on its way to being mended.<P>The problem is that a select few site "members" read only the first few or last posts and then make their suggestions without being fully informed. I know you have been here a long time and probably felt compelled to help out your fellow member, but PB has only been here a short time and an attack like yours will surely chase her away or piss her off. She is entitled to her opinion that some people's advice is not exactly what the doctor ordered.<P>So it would probably be in everybody's best interest if we stopped slamming each other and move on to another thread if we don't like this one.

Thanks jsg. You have helped me more than you will ever know. Or maybe you do know, seeing as you understand. <P>Just Learning, I really wish I could believe it was out of concern for my marriage that people told me to get over it, or that my standards are unrealistic, or that my hurt is unreasonable. Rather, I believe it stems from their own insecurities about their past. <P>NO, I don't need any people telling me to "Get over it". I don't need people telling me my moral standards are "unrealistic". *I* had self control, *I* have been begged for sex many times, and it was had to say "no". I know just what living by those standards means. I know how hard it is, because I did it. <P>And about this whole "forgiveness" thing...Do I have to quote myself again?<P>""Do I *really* care about his past, enough to make me feel differently about him? No. I love him no matter what, and our relationship is about a lot more than sex, anyway""<P>YES, I really do love my husband. I don't think there's anything I have to forgive him for, he sinned against God and his own soul, not ME.<P>Do I just want to have a pity party? No, but a little comisseration is nice once in a while when you've never met anyone in your situation.<P>The kind of advice I would welcome is if people who have been on my husband's side of the fence answered questions like:<P>How do you feel about past sexual partners?<P>Do you think about them often?<P>What is it like to have sex with someone and then not have sex with them any more? What do you feel like when you see them again later?<P>How much do you compare past partners with your current one?<P>Do you feel like you left a part of yourself with everybody you had sex with?<P>Explain how sex can be just physical.<P>What did you feel like when you broke up with the first person you had sex with?<P>Etc.... I can think of a million questions. I can't answer these myself because I have no experience with that stuff. I can't begin to imagine. <P>Please, tell me your perspective, but don't tell me to "Get over it". <P>It is really an unhelpful and uncaring thing to say, and my now-saintly husband would not approve. <P>You do not realize how much extra pain you can cause someone, and that will NOT help their marrige.<P>PG<BR>

jsg, and PG,<P>I have read every word on this thread many times. Please read my last post again. I didn't say get over it. I didn't imply that your feelings weren't valid. <P>I did state that the people here post to try and help. If PG doesn't believe that is the case, perhaps she should find a place where people are more <I>attuned</I> to the type of help she seeks.<P>I am not blasting her for anything but being annoyed by people she should not be annoyed with and I will say the same to you. If you jsg don't feel people here are trying to help please feel free to look elsewhere, but it shows very little respect on either of your parts to misread posts and then get mad when people are trying to help.<P>They may not be able to help,or you may decide that their advice isn't worth following, or you won't follow it. All of those are your options. But this is a Marriagebuilders site, so the basic presumption is that you are having some troubles in your marriage and you want opinions and advice on how to rebuild your marriage.<P>If that isn't the case, tell everyone. As I said before we will leave you alone to have your conversation. <P>PG, I would answer your list of questions for you, but I doubt that I would be of "so sufficient standing" or give you the answers you want. <P>So I will do as you have implied you want. Leave you alone.<P>God Bless,<P>JL<P>PS: I would also remind you that this is John Raker's thread and many here have attempted to help him.<p>[This message has been edited by Just Learning (edited July 30, 2001).]

JL, you have also posted some advice from your perspective in the past. While my husband does not really feel the way you do about some things (He regrets his past, you don't), it is still fine for me to read your POV. The only time I get upset is when people start telling me:<P>1) I have no right to be hurt (there's that "invalidating feelings" again<BR>2) I should "Get over it". <P>YOU did not say either of those things. A couple others did. Worse, they openly admitted that they did not understand, then proceeded to say "get over it". My own husband does not understand. I don't understand him, either. He would never tell me to "get over it", because he is a loving person.<P>I really do appreciate when people from either side of the fence post their feelings/thoughts. I did not misread those two other posts in question, and those were the only ones that I think are not well-meaning. One is questionable, the other definately NOT well-meaning. I, for one, don't want to see the thread turn that way.<P>By the way, everybody,...if you say I shouldn't be annoyed by something, then you really are invalidating my feelings. I stand firmly by my right to be annoyed. Maybe YOU wouldn't be annoyed, but I am, and I am NOT easily annoyed. This forum has been very helpful and I have recieved a lot of good advice. Just not from a few choice individuals.<P>JL, you assume an awful lot about me. By your remarks where you say that I would not listen to or appreciate your perspective, it is painfully obvious to me that you have misread my posts. JSG and I have independently come up with the same interpretation of those other members' posts, while you have something different. <P>Nobody else here thinks that I am the kind of person who wants to turn down advice. I don't know what I ever did to you, but this is not about refusing advice. This is not about who is and who is not "worthy" to give advice. How you ever came up with that "sufficent standing" crap, I don't know, but it has NOTHING to do with me.<P>You also assume you know what kind of answers I want to hear. How in the world do YOU know what kind of answers I want to hear? That is a complete joke.<P>Then you assume I want to be left alone. No, I want REAL advice. Not pat answers that stem from somebody's insecurity with their own past.<P>I am normally a really polite person, even on discussion groups. I don't like rocking the boat. Some things are just worth it, especially if I feel anyone here is going to get hurt by comments. I was never one to leave a friend to stand alone.<P>PG

PG,<P>Desert Rose said: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I don't know...if all I had to worry about was who my husband had sex with BEFORE we got married I would be one very lucky lady.<P>Please...love your partners. They have not betrayed you, they have not betrayed your marriage vows...be thankful for what you DO have, it's precious.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> <BR>Stormy4 said: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> <BR>How do stop thinking those thoughts? Decide to! What is going to happen if you don't? You are wasting so much time feeling bad, that time could be better spent on working on your marriage to make it better every day. When you spend so much time looking in the rear-view mirror of life, you forget to realize if you don't look forward {where you want to go, not where you've been] you will crash.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This last message was sent to John, by the way.<P>PG, I don't know about you, but these two posts don't sound like they are coming from uncaring or clueless people. In fact, they don't say "get over it", they offer advice from their perspective.<P>As for me not understanding what you want, I completely agree, hence I cannot meet what appears to be your criterion. <P>PG, the purpose of my post to you was not to attack you, it was to point out what seemed obvious to me. The two posters that set you off didn't intend to do it. They were offering their advice from their perspective, that is all they or anyone can do.<P>It seems from your posts that people with their perspective or mine for that matter is not what you want. Now that I realize this, I won't offer you any as you wish.<P>I am not mad at you PG. I am not disappointed in you. As you point out I don't know you. I simply pointed out that the people that have posted to you did so with the best of intentions. DR, is a long time poster here, and has been through her share of problems in her marriage. She doesn't have to post to you to feel validated. Most don't. She did it because John Raker's question intriqued her and his and yes your view of things puzzled her. She stated as much, but she offered you her advice. Note, she hasn't come back. Actually, I am sure she has but I doubt that you will hear from her again.<P>To bad, she has a great sense of humor, and is very inquisitive about the human condition. Hence her insights are often very useful.<P>I know the answer to your problem. I posted it on jsg message to me. I also know you don't want to hear it. But with time you will realize that it is true.<P>I wish you and your H a very happy and long marriage.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

John please start another thread for yourself so this bickering can end.

Hello people, Let me start out by saying "LETS STOP THIS!". I personaly was not offened by any posts in this thread. Hell, somtimes I do need a good kick in the [censored] to realize just what I've got, and I got a few of them here!. Everybody has a different opinion, I came here to hear all opinions(Good or bad).It don't mean your right or wrong, it's just how you personaly feel about the matter. Thankyou everyone for all the help. Later.....PS. I would post more often, but Im working very crazy hours now.

well john r, do you think this subject can get people worked up or what?<BR>h

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Just Learning:<BR><B>If you don't want advice or suggestions, then don't post here. If you do then receive it with grace. You are not compelled to take the advice, but at least be cognizant that it was offered in kindness.</B><P>That is a very good observation, JL (as usual).<P>There is an interesting dynamic on this forum sometimes...people post their "issue", and it sounds a lot like a cry for help, so compassionate people try to offer advice or insight or sympathy. But, sometimes, the "issue" is a feeling that may be defensive in nature...a barrier to intimacy that the poster has put up and, perhaps, really isn't ready to have resolved. <P>Time heals all wounds that you let it heal.<P>I was devastated to learn, a number of years into our marriage, that my W had a (minor)level of intimacy with someone I detested (as a teen, way before we were married). I honestly didn't think I could get by it, and if other factors were present, I may have, consciously or unconsciously, nursed it into an excuse to separate. But those factors weren't there, so, over time, I let the negative feelings drift away.<P>So...what am I saying...maybe sometimes seemingly "irrational" hangups are actually psychological indicators of some other problem...insecurity, self-esteem, suspicions of infidelity, whatever.<P>Anyway, my thoughts, for what it they are worth.<P>

Hello John,<P>I'm not going to address the turn this thread has taken, but I would like to share some personal thoughts with you about your topic and the reason you started this post.<P>First of all, let me say that I have been married for 25 years. My husband and I both knew that each of us had been sexually active before we met, but we never discussed our sexual history in detail. I found out only a year ago that he had far less premarital experience than I did.<P>I found that out as we were trying to begin recovering from an affair that he had. Believe me when I tell you that his affair is BY FAR the worst thing that has ever happened in my life. The images, thoughts, and memories drove me into a deep depression that almost destroyed our chances for saviing our marriage. Counseling has helped me to overcome them.<P>I say these things to you not to insinuate that your pain is not just as great because you may hurt just as much as I do. But there will come a time when you will either forgive and heal or the pain will destroy you.<P>I am NOT insinuating that you have to "let it go". I am saying that you have to accept the unchangeable truth and decide how you want to deal with it. Do want to let your wife's past have this much control over your life? Do you want this to dominate your relationship with her knowing that it will eventually destroy your marriage (even if you never divorce, the quality of your marriage will be destroyed)?<P>If you want to have a happy fulfilling marriage, the hurt and resentment you feel must be managed, treated, and hopefully resolved. My personal suggestions are prayer and good counseling. That is what has worked for my husband and me.<P>On this next point please keep in mind that I am guessing that your fears are similar to mine. I often wondered if my husband thought of the other woman when we had sex, or if he fantasized about her, or if he enjoyed being with her more than me. Not to mention the obvious concerns that he was still in contact with her and if the affair was continuing.<P>When I finally shared my fears with him, he very gently reassured me that the affair happened at a very dark time in his life and that if it ever entered his thoughts it was in a most negative way. He further said that his main memory of the affair was the way it made him feel now (dirty and disgusting, he said) and the way that it hurt me and our marriage. Then he said that he didn't have clear memories of things that WE (he and I) did two weeks ago so how could he have clear memories of something that happened nearly a year ago (a year ago this week, actually).<P>And I realized that he was right. When I tried to recall memories of what it was like to be with another man, I absolutely couldn't remember and didn't want to. I am sure your wife feels the same.<P>The problem is that the fact your wife EVER shared herself sexually with another man violates your personal belief system. That's why it hurts so much, and that's why it will take time and a lot of work to get over it. But I promise you that it will NOT go away by itself. Please consider counseling.<P>Peppermint

Hi John,<P>I too would like to address your original posting:<P>My ex was a virgin when we married, and I was not -- in fact, far from it. It was the 70's and I was a disco queen, out having fun. My ex, well, gorgeous as he was, thought he was ugly, and hid in his house. We were set up by a blind date, and married six weeks later.<P>I was very honest with my thenH about my past, and he "said" he had no problem with it. But he did. Just as you do. <P>In the case of my ex, he wanted to know what it was like to be with someone else... and was jealous of me for knowing. My ex had at least five affairs, and yep, now he knows what it's like, but he lost his marriage in the process.<P>I won't tell you to get over it either, but I will say that you NEED to find a way to come to grips with it, or it will eat you alive. My ex harbored angry thoughts for years, and finally DID SOMETHING about it by having a series of affairs. <P>My story is long and sordid, and if you want to know more, you can look up posts by me... my name was new_beginning, and I came in Aug, 1999. I came because I had an affair. My thenH had had three affairs years before, and he had a couple after mine too. Such a mess...<P>My ex's bitterness finally surfaced, after "holding it in" for so long... I don't want that to happen to you.<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>And we know. We who have seen. ~Pellegrino

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jsg:<BR><B>To Just Learning:<P>Let the mud slinging begin! </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>hello I am Wellmaiden...your friendly Moderator...<P>No.....the mud slinging, rudeness, insulting tones and the holier-than-thou attitudes will stop now please...<P>Interfering or locking threads is not something I relish doing as I believe in and enjoy the free exchange of ideas <B>opinions</B> and advice.<P>Plan A is something we should be incorporating into our lives on a daily basis and using it with all people we meet....<P>I humbly suggest a little more plan-A-ing with each other..<P>agree to disagree......yes.<BR>respectfully disagree...yes.<P>what has been done on this thread.....no.<P>and personal attacks on members will NOT be tolerated...<P>Thank you for your time....please resume in a non-confrontational manner....<P>Wellmaiden<BR>MB Moderator - Other Topics<P>

John, I read your posts very carefully, and I could tell you love your wife very much and you are both hurting from this situation. Another thought I want to add concerning her past is if any man had been such a terrific lover and a great person, she would have married him! She didn't. He didn't have the qualities she was looking for in a husband. You did. She chose you! Perhaps when those thoughts come up you can tell yourself that.

I response to the origins of this thread:<BR>you fellas who are in pain over your wive's past, I am, or was you. I found it amazing how similar our stories are; I have been with my wife only, she was with other men before me and I knew it, I pretended not to care, but I really did.<BR>I let it eat me up and it caused me so much pain. The only pain that is worse is when she dumped my sorry butt, in part, because I threw her past in her face too much. I am now going to find out what it is like to have sex with other women, and I sorely wish that I were not! if your wives love you, you have the world!