So tell me .. how do you play THIS game?

When both spouses feel that the 'other' is making 'them' be the way they are: unloving, hurtful, neglectful, etc. What's the best strategy to solve this?

Dee

This is not a game.

Maybe you've read some of the posts of members who have not yet experienced a healing...
..through forgiveness of their own failings.

Do read... General Welcome for All New Builders(Newbies)...
...and learn about Plan A (not a game)....
...and Plan B (not a game)...

...but both... a way to find healing...
...even if the marriage is not 'saved' in the conventional sense.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Jim/NSR

<small>[ July 05, 2003, 09:05 PM: Message edited by: NSR ]</small>

Trust me ... I know it's not a game ... the title was just a play on words.

What I mean to ask ... is how the hell do you deal with the fact that you butt heads each time you talk about who is suppose to change first?

Now I KNOW .. because I'm here ... I should be the one ... well, I've done that for years! I have tried everything I could ... and then some.
There is neglect, subtle emotional abuse, and just plain dirtiness (not keeping clean, not taking out garbage for months, etc.).

I have read ALL ... even the book .... even LMBT, and Divorce Busters ... all of it ... so I do understand the concept ... but after doing my share for so long ... and H saying it's ME that is making HIM not do his part ... I'm at a loss.

Of course .. as other members in the 'emotional' threads know .... I'm in a sort of Plan B now, even though we're living together .. I'm just trying to get myself together enough to support myself before I leave. But still ... it's very hard to live in the same house .. and NOT get angry at each other ... or have problems.

Even though I'm the one using the plan, he's the one who's withdrawn and holding back .... and pretty much ignoring me. He's also grouchy and gruff .. in everything he says ... so it's pretty hard not to react!

There .... does that explain it better? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
Dee

what your saying is...

you both USE each other.

you do not love each other.

you need each other to survive is all.

what has love got to do with it?

Look at the marriage builders principles

all I have seen you do here since you came here is taken love, sex, etc and ask questions..I at first thought you were getting yourself off reading them because people would go into detail about things..

I have been here since 99 and never saw anyone come in here and just ask the type of questions you did, like you were some sort of survey for a magazine.

what good did all the information you got from others about "our sex life" help you?

I think you need to realize..we work on ourself, and leave them to work on themself..it doesn't matter who changes first..you do what you need to do for you..let him take care of him..and go to councelling..

you sound very childish, he did this, he did that,
he made me..he made you nothing..both need to grow up..I think age and time takes its toll on all marriages and we all need to change..everyone of us needs to change, work to make the other happy without expecting anything in return..after all what is love??

do you know what love is?
can you explain it?
how do you love yourself?
what do you do for yourself to prove your love for you?

Love Chapter in the bible corin 13 check it out..

I think you for instance have become judgemental to him, even if he did something worthy of your praise you would only notice things left undone..try to see the lil things for now...and try if you want to make it..then try hard to zip the lip..or get out..it is the only answer..to leave..don't wait till you can make it..prove to yourself you can do what it takes without him or his help..go to a shelter even..just get out instead of making each other miserable and saying things to hurt each other..

I have a feeling you both love each other..but think there is nothing left..rather then admit it to each other..WE BOTH HAVE FAILED lets start over now..or get out..because you cannot fix or change someone else..they got to do it and want to change..and be fixed..the only way to fix it is to give it to God..both of you..hand your marriage to God..and stop going after the worldly type of sex..and bring honor to each other and respect what is good..whatsoever is true, pure and a good report think on these things..

Love...thinks no evil..
Love is patient..
Love is..
Love is
Love is..

Love is doing..
what is love to you??

I am rambling..I know that you are both angry.
stop being angry for a while call a truce for 3 days and say nothing unkind to each other..when you speak let it be kind words that you speak to each other..treat each other as someone your trying to impress..be on your best manners..
Be ye kind to one another..grin...because God says so..thats why...

ok..if there was no adultry then get on with working it out..stop keeping score..

if there is no other person..then there is hope..
if there was no hope you would not of ended your post the way you did..

there is hope..if no hope then death..of whatever..it was..
Keep on Keeping on..

Sex is not everything..that will fail..
but love real love never fails..agape love.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

SadEyes,

I've just woke up and read your post ....

I need to think on this a bit, before answering, since I feel you went WAY overboard on criticism!

You have NO idea what my life is .... only what you hear on here. The questions I asked were legitimate and I DID need opinions to sort things out in my own mind. How dare you say you even considered that I used them to 'get off'! That made me sick to my stomach reading that!

I'll post later ..
Dee

SadEyes,

Let me address your post now:

NO ... we do NOT use each other .. not even sure what you mean by that ... could you explain?

I love my H very much ....

I don't feel H needs 'me' to survive .... and I could 'survive' without him, but I do love him.

As I mentioned before, the questions I asked were for my own information to help me with stuff going around in my head ... H can be somewhat abusive (been told by MC also), and wanted to see what the so called 'norm' was ... even though I know there's no norm .... but sometimes when you're in a subtly abusive situation, you can't tell what's up or what's down ... I just wanted to make sure.

You say you've been here awhile and never saw anybody come in and ask the type of questions I asked ... well, for one thing .. what does that have to do with 'anything'? Maybe folks were 'wanting' to ask ... but didn't ... and you saw all the responses and how it did help others see things more clearly... surely there was a need for the questions ... or folks would have ignored the post. By the way, I have a very analytical mind, and I'm a writer .. and an artist, I ask what I need to know ... and if it sounded like a survey for a magazine .. well, that's cool .. guess I asked some good stuff then!

I am working on myself every day ... he is doing nothing ... sorry, but I agree some of what the principles are, but dissagree with others, such as it takes 'TWO' to work on a marriage .... and you can work on you forever .. doesn't always mean it will save the relationship.

Not sure how I sound anymore childish than anybody else here who says the very same things every once in a while .. gosh .. many posts are filled with this type of stuff .... I thought this was a place to vent, to lean, to learn, if everytime I need to get something out, I'm criticized, I'll learn not to trust it here, and it will no longer be a safe and helpful place.

Love is a 'choice'... and for many years I've chosen to love my H ... even though he's not returned that love in the way I need to stay happy ... that's MY choice!

For now .. need to break ... getting tired, but I'll finish the rest of your comments later.

Dee

Bump!

what I said was.. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Look at the marriage builders principles
all I have seen you do here since you came here is taken love, sex, etc and ask questions..I at first thought you were getting yourself off reading them because people would go into detail about things..</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Dee I said..AT FIRST Look I thought you were getting yourself off..but you seem to take offense if I THINK..I can think what I want..
to..

and I think that perhaps if you want a clean home..take the garbage out yourself..instead of spending so much complaining about it..

I learnedt to clean and do things I did not want to do..but if I wanted a clean enviroment then I cleaned it..maybe he does not care how things look and you can just frustrate yourself..forever..

I lived in an abusive relationship ...I did not say you did not..I was addressing the fact you are staying there with him..(using him) to live with till you can afford to get out on your own..

he uses you to get his needs met,whatever you do to meet those needs..in marriage some times people end up in a relationship that works for them, not the norm..

what is ok for some in bed..might be not for you.
I do know there are things some people on here do..like threesomes and swinging I would not consider doing...my husband wanted me to swing..I left the place we were and walked the freeway home for half an hour before he missed me..

there are times we have to make up our own minds, and yes asking questions is good..

I am an artist and a writter..but that has no bearing on things unless I am going to write a story about sex..or marriage..

I think it is because when I first saw you..it is not meaning to make you feel bad..but what I saw in my mind was one angry person..setting up a table with a clipboard asking questions..lots of them..and you know that was true..that is how I saw it..and the questions you asked were very personal..

I have noticed though lax in the forums since 99 and for the life of me..I cannot figure out how sometimes they get so far off the track..

this afterall is STEVE HARLEYS MARRIAGE BUILDERS..and we are using his principles..not whatever floats our boat..these are tried and true.

but it is no guarantee people will be sucessful at saving a marriage no matter how hard we work at it..
But we do try.

If you have given up and think it is a game..I assure you it is not.
and why do you want to be here and also put yourself in a board with people meat board..forget what they call those dating thing..you are married you are not free to date..or have an affair.

we are here to try to stop these things..not promote them..people are hurting and taking these seriously, not to learn new sex things...to try on others..so as far as I saw it whether it makes you sick or not..it sickened me..to see some of the questions you asked..

but your right maybe people need to know..so we will call you Dr.DEE..after all Dr. Ruth started someplace <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I was not criticizing you..it may be constructive not destructive..you have destroyed yourself..with the questions you ask..not me.
I would be embaressed to ask some of what you did..

if your husband saw some of them he would be mortified..I bet he would be shocked..I bet you would not even show them to him.

I just hope you do not use any of our stuff from here in your other forum where your looking for a date..you want said you posted there while you are pretty yet..

I think that you are looking in the wrong place, your going to get hurt big time..it is not a game..it can be very dangerous..and besides you are still married..so that means you will make your husband a bs
don't bother to respond to me..I am not interested..
I have always been true to my marriage vows..and he is dead and I will continue to be..celebate..
We did not have the greatest marriage but one thing I can say Is I was true to him and hid nothing from him..my life was open to him at all times..I did not do anything I was ashamed of..
guess I was what you considered a faithful spouse..and it was not easy..I even emptied garbage.
there is no reason to treat a spouse disrespectfuly
treat them as you want to be treated..
I will pray that you will find happiness with yourself first then maybe you can share yourself with another..perhaps your own spouse..
I am just so disheartened to see people creating problems for them self..by posting on a board for other men..to see..who they can get..you need professional help before you become a statistic..
I am not going to open this post again I have said what I wanted to..and I just don't want to debate..I know what you said..also how do you play the game you asked..then changed it..to a play on words..I feel so sorry for you..get real with yourself..your playing with fire..your gonna get burned... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

SadEyes,

OK .. decided I'm going to put things in the proper perspective for you!!! I don't HAVE to do this ... but I'm writing because it's 'myself' I AM standing for this time!!

Speaking of the 'garbage' .. I'm talking about the H leaving bags and bags of it on the front porch, that need to be taken to the dump ... and I can NOT lift it .. since I have a very bad disk!
If I could .. do you think I'd LEAVE it there??

I keep the house very clean ... as clean as I can with my limitations. You'd be surprised how active I AM with all the pain I have!!

I'm staying ... because it's where I WANT to be! As a matter of fact, I'm seeing a lawyer soon to determine if I can collect alimony to be able to stay in the house and have him leave.

Gosh! I think there are ALLOT of angry folks here, I'm NOT the only one!! It all comes with the stuff we're going through ... I think that's pretty clear!

Where the HELL did you get the idea I was gathering 'sex' information to try on 'others'???
Excuse me .. but I posted that I placed an ad in a dating service ... to see if my picture and information brought any responses ... I was curious if I was still attractive to guys .. seeing as I have very little attention and affection here! You know, you really need to look further into some of the 'stupid' things we do on the spur of the moment, that we DO regret afterward! I'm not an alien for pete sakes! I did it .. and now I've taken it off .. I never responded to any of the ads .. and besides, that's NOT even YOUR business .... but for your information, I'm NOT looking for another man, and I'm NOT cheating .. and have NO intention to!

And .. excuse me? I've 'destroyed' myself with my questions? LOL!! Now THAT one is funny!

If you think my H would be embarrased about some of the questions I've asked .. you DON'T KNOW my husband! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Gosh ... if you heard some of the degrading, down and dirty things HE'S said ... trust me, you'd never say that!!

By the way, you told me not to respond to your post, but you DID email me ... so THIS is my response to the email ... I won't be answering you privately. I do NOT want to carry this further ... you have your opinions, fine. I KNOW my life ... you do not. So let's just leave it at this ... and agree to disagree.

Dee

dd,

Have you read the book boundaries in marriage?

if not, I'd suggest you do..

Is there a garbage service in your area that you can call and have them pick up the garbage?? Or any teen kids around where you live that you could pay a couple dollars a week to and have them take it to the curb on garbage days???

this post, sounds like you are very resentful of your husband because he is not living up to your expectations..of what you think he should do..
so maybe you should stop expecting him to DO anything..and hire someone else to do them..

if he leaves his clothes lying around..and you want him to help with laundry..then pick up his dirty clothes and put them in his dresser or hang them up...if he says something about them being dirty..or why haven't you washed them..reply with-

"Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize they were dirty..
dirty clothes typically go in the clothes basket, not on the floor, so that I know they need to be washed"

Or, you could look at them as garbage..and throw them away..and when asked about his clothes..

you could reply with..

"Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't think you wanted them anymore..how was I to know as they were thrown around the floor like garbage??"

And If he is abusive...get yourself counseling, with someone who deals with abuse..

Dee
first I want to appologise for some of the things I said, some you really took wrong..the one about the questions and the other board..

actually I was concerned for your safety..and yes I did do some stupid things while I was under stress..but was just with money.

I think I see you having some of the problems I did in your marriage is all..
and your husband reminds me of mine..

I think we have alot more in common then you know.
perhaps that is why I am noticing things..

I also make dolls..mop dolls and other types when I get my scanner working I will show you..and if you need some patterns I have some books..I can send you if you have a P>O Box..I have been getting rid of things as I find people who can use them as I won't be needing the things soon..

I really am sorry if your feelings were hurt..
no one wants you to leave..especially me..

I think you keep the boards lively albeit..I don't like to see so much talk about sex..not because of you..but because aometimes it get too much attention with mixed company is all..and I know what can happen sometimes..in a mixed group..even in christian chat rooms people have strayed..but hopefully that won't happen here..(I am not saying you will..)

I do think your over sensitive but I was at one time..too I think alot of it is due to lack of attention from your husband..mine would say nice things about other women to me..
he would never compliment me on his own..
but he would tell me , how beautiful somene ELSE said I was..that bothered..him...someone else would say that to him, he would then get mad at me..argh...

the garbage..also I had a problem with..rofl..but I called to have it hauled away at $5.00 a bag..
whats hard is my brother in law had a truck he parked it here and took my van..I asked him can I put garbage in the truck..he said sure..and he would haul it..well when he got home he said he didn't say that..so I had to take it out..and he drove off with my van and brought it back the next day..they all were crazy makers..
he supposedly was collecting disability so it is why he would not do it..but yet he was taking care of my husband who left..me..having to lift him etc..it was just not wanting to do anything for me was all..it is weird..I know..

But if your disabled and worked at any time put in for disability..from ss..and if your husband worked you can collect under his..plus there is help for displaced homemakers..

what state are you in??

well I just wanted to ask you to forgive me for hurting your feelings..it's up to you if you do or not..take care and Praying things go well for you..

what other types of dolls do you make..?

I also do little angels..with crochet yarn..with wood heads and beads..and give her ribbon wings..with a halo of tiny stiff beads...

I am sorry...Keep on keeping on..

(you are pretty and please don't put yourself on those other boards..ok>? your better then that..) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> FRIENDS???
if you want you can e-mail me.. earthangel@telcomplus.net

Thank you SadEyes ... for your apology, it is accepted. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

You're right ... I am sensitive right now, probably more than you'll know.

I have Lupus, cfs, fms, deteriation of the disk, scoliosis, hypertension, mitral valve prolapse syndrome, menier's disease and now entering menopause! I'm beginning to have some sort of 'attacks' at night, and they're not sure what they are ... I'll be seeing a neurologist soon.

I believe the Lupus is getting worse ... and even though I'm only 51, sometimes I feel so much older.

I get very little comfort from my H ... and I feel he neglects me pretty much ... so I'm starving for some attention and affection!

I think what hurt me the most about your post, was you feeling that I was using the sex questions to use in other areas of my life, outside my marriage ...and that's the furthest thing from the truth! I'm a good woman, who is really trying to deal with all this crap, that's all.

I've just picked up that you lost your H, and I'm truly sorry .... and I believe I remember you mentioning that you're sick also? I certainly can understand sickness, as you can see.

All is forgiven, and forgotten .... sorry I came across so defensive ... but this is a really rough time in life for me.

Have a good night,
Dee

Dee
Thanks and big hugs for you!

Been there with the menoupause thing and it
was not fun I assure you. At the time the doctor
finally put me on hrt and it helped with the flashes.

I have also alot of ailments..and the hrt I was understood to help our hearts..well on my account it didn't help anything..

I was diagnosed with Cardiomyopthy and heart failure my heart is only working at 17 % and I am not a candidate for heart transplant and even if I were i would not do it..I am scared to go under at any cost...

I also have both kinds of arthritis need knee replacements in both knees..had the shots in my knees 3 times I tried them..no help..there is like a session of going back think it was 4 times once a week and you are suppose to rest..I was always told to rest but could not due to caring for Mr R. who was obnoxious and uncaring..demanding, selfish..you get the picture..but I DID STILL LOVE HIM...why? who knows towards the end I was beginning to wake up and realize how bad a marriage *I* had..he had no complaints..because he said he was happy..I guess I did too much..he told me I loved him too much..he also said he lived a lie..so I was trying to figure that one out..and never will..
I have to put him where he belongs..tucked in my heart and leave him there..

anyway I have so many ailments it sounds like I got almost everything..so I won't bore you..
I never know if I will wake up or if I do how I am going to feel..

You made me stop and look at myself the other day,
thanks I needed to see that maybe I need to reflect and check myself out to make sure I am not coming across as judgemental..

with the comment *YOU* took wrong..I didn't mean you were actually doing anything..only that with what you heard from the survey you did.would go off and maybe answer one of the adds and get yourself hurt.even if online with someone..but I can see you were sort of off tilt...for awhile

I remember when I started the menoupause thing.I felt like I was someone else sometimes could not explain the way I felt because I was not sure myself..but it got better..it that part did not last forever but it was scarey..

When you say your having attacks..are you talking about the panic attacks..??

or are you talking about like a shock and shaking?
I was having scarey shock type of thing a month ago and I was on a new med..ultrum..also called ultrex for pain causing me to feel like I stuck my finger in an outlet..pain and felt like someone was shaking me and it stopped..it only happened at night..and I stopped the med and it went away..

If you are experiencing the numbing and tingling in hands and fingers..it is part of menoupause..

hey I GOT the BIG Question..lol I was going to try to get a grant at one time for this..
Did you or do you worry you will be a BAG LADY??
that I think was my biggest fear..and where it came from I have no clue...but lots of other women when entering menoupause or during it have the same thing..lots ...

there is even a Bag Ladies Of World =BLOW

It is important right now..Dee that you focus on taking care of yourself..not others..not even hubby..he is a big boy he can take care of himself, after all if your not there he would have to do things for himself..

your going to run out of energy faster is all so you need to get excercise to have energy.
at least it worked for me..

I laugh cause I took care of me..and I am in such bad shape but for the bad shape I am in..I am in good shape for the bad shape I am in..lol

really I have arthritis but I am very flexible..
although in excruciating pain...I have always had this attitude to keep on keeping on..do what you can..with what you got..use it or loose it mentality..most of my inspiration comes from the word of God..and relying on HIM to carry me through all situations..

right now I am scared though of this heart thing..I have been retaining water..and that is not good..if it is around my heart and lungs..right now I think it is not on my heart and lungs but I am really bloated..and I dread going to the doctors cause he may want to put me in hospital and I won't allow that..they will probably want to drain me of excess fluids by IV..well they can do it as an outpatient because I refuse to go in a hospital..I want to die at home..and once they get me there I would never come out..of the place..shrug..I do not want heroic measures..

one thing with the menoupause,,the bleeding is so messed up sometimes you will bleed alot for along time.might need to eat raisins and maybe get a vitamin with iron..but sometimes I bleed for a whole month..then nothing for 2 months later..
it seems like I was buying kotex..and they say as long as you don't go through a box a day..your safe..shish..but sometimes you do gush..it is unsettling but if you don't want a hyserectomy then be adamant that you want to keep everything..

there was no reason for them to take any of my
plumbing..if my paps were normal then I kept and will keep everything..keeps you young other wise you go through the instant menoupause and need to take hormones to help or else you grow hair and have some terrible things happen as my girlfriend keeps telling me..she had one 4 years ago and gained tons of weight and has to shave her face..argh..I thought she was kidding..saw a pic of her and sideways you can see stubble on her upper lip..ooooohhhh nooo..

well I think enough about med problems here..
but I hope they get to the bottom of your shock thing and it isn't any thing serious..

hopefully it is as simple as a side effect of a med..get on an antidepressant..I have tried lots and the one that works great is Paxil the one that is dosage regulated...so it stays at the same level in your body...round one..12 1/2 mg..
helps with mood swings..and emotions..

well this is probably too much information..but you know when I went through menoupause no one
talked about it..so I have braved the new frontier.and gone before others here..so if I can
help ask me..I will tell you if it is something related..as alot of friends also went through it..

well Dee guess I need to go I slept late this afternoon and got up at midnight so I will be up all night in the coolness of the evening..ahhh..

Doctors tomorrow..today..geez I hate going..
but my daughter is coming with me and it is always fun when she comes..she will spend tonight here..and we will go out and eat..she lives on an island so she comes at least once a month..she was coming once a week spending the night then going back..it was good for her to get off island..to do some things she also needed to do..
I treasure her..

do you have children? I have 3 which 2 are grateful and other is selfish..obnoxious like his dad was..
Take care..and yes the serenity prayer is a good one to live by..I use it too..it is in my bathroom hanging since the day I moved in..and one near the puter and in my heart..grin
ohh this is sooooo long..
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />