It's not your life and as miserable as someone is/seems to be in their marriage, LET THEM MAKE THE DECISION!

AAARRRRGGGGHHHHH!
This really burns my cookies when people do this.

It's okay to tell them to think about divorce.
But telling them their ws is a _ _ _ _ (fill in the blanks), they deserve better and they should divorce them NOW is the same as telling them THEY ARE IDIOTS for continuing on.

Give them support. Listen to what they have to say. Validate their feelings. Make suggestions.

<small>[ July 29, 2003, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

Bumping --- because this is a good thought!!! Thanks Chris!!!

Jan

precisely!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Remember that a lot of us hear that from our family and friends. This is the one place we get support for trying to stay married.

Since this is the DIVORCED/DIVORCING forum aren't most people beyond saving their marriage? If they are posting here then hasn't the decision to divorce already been made either by them or their stbx? Don't get your point but then

I agree totally Chris... LunaDove you are also right. My friends and family have done nothing but tell me to let him go and get on with life. But I think we would all agree that until you've walked in another's shoes, we can't know what we would really do.

I agree. Divorce is too easy. And I am appalled that many people just dump their spouses, cause they have changed their feelings before God.

What the vows should say, is not till death do us apart. But until I tire of the spouse, or until I find the grass greener elsewhere.

This is a divorce forum, but look at the Bible and look at what two people did in front of the altar with Gods eyes giving the affirmation of the unite of the two bodies before him. Divorce is so easy now adays. If most people put more effort into their marriage, instead of knocking their marriage. Divorce would not be so frequent. But as many wayward spouses look at their marriage as a piece of paper, and toss the paper away, and burn it. Means nothing to them, and they go find the grass that they think is greener.

Yes, wayward spouses did DUMP their spouse. Sad, but true, dumping their spouse is like dumping their old refrigerator, getting rid of the old tractor. Putting down the old dog. Society has made things so easy to get rid of, and this is not Gods plan.

Since this is the DIVORCED/DIVORCING forum aren't most people beyond saving their marriage? If they are posting here then hasn't the decision to divorce already been made either by them or their stbx? Don't get your point but then
My point is that unless you are going to support someone(mentally, emtionally, financially, babysitting, any/all other ways) in a divorce, then please don't tell anyone, "Your ws is a horrible person. Such a _ _ _ _! You should NOT put up with what they are doing and you need to divorce them immediately."

This DOES happen quite a bit in these forums.

Even if they have made the decision to divorce, give them support but don't egg them on. "Yeah, divorce the bi _ _ _!"

Harley does not (to the best of my knowledge) tell anyone they need to divorce. He does tell them when he thinks the marriage will not work out and that divorce is something they should consider.

<small>[ July 30, 2003, 09:32 AM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

I feel that Chris's ideas applies to ALL of the MB forum.

I feel that another poster saying "leave the *&@%$&%$$" is a LB, no matter the situation. It does help in building the idividual. When ever it has been suggested to me to "leave the ^$*(%$#@", I feel like a looser for trying to hang on. When I was dicorcing my x-H, It only prolonged the confussion and pain I was feeling about the x-marriage.

It is never appropriate.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I feel that another poster saying "leave the *&@%$&%$$" is a LB, no matter the situation. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ahem, physical abuse?? constant emotional abuse? just because you haven't experienced it doesn't mean that other won't have the experience. . .

no matter the situation????????

i find the freedom on opinion muzzlers here rather a generalization of "Lets all get along, regardless of an opinion."

if you don't like a post, stop reading, or say your point of view, but your point of view need not be everybody else's point of view...

and unless one follows every suggestion on the board, they make the decision whether we suggest something or not. . . what ever happened to an individual being responsible for their own decisions? or is this just a repeat the EN's survey, read and apply the LBs book forum? and you all follow blindly with or without success?

wiftty

Yes wifty and we should take ALL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> comments with a grain of salt . It actually does become a problem when folks all just jump on the bandwagon and agree with you. You need to take it from the source and think for yourself. Weighing out others ideas good/bad, and use your own way ultimately while dealing with a conflict.

I feel that another poster saying "leave the *&@%$&%$$" is a LB, no matter the situation.
True, but most people here are not concerned about LB someone else in these forums.

We should have respect for others here.

When ever it has been suggested to me to "leave the ^$*(%$#@", I feel like a looser for trying to hang on. ...

It is never appropriate.
ExACTLY!

I call it as I see it. If I feel from reading a post that the marriage is still salvagable then I will say it. If I read a post where a spouse has left his significant other while they were pregnant, or had multiple affairs for piddly reasons, ya darn right I would suggest moving on.

Suggestions are good. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Good advice ...

And as far as the cookies thingy goes:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Chris wrote:
This really burns my cookies when people do this.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I so dislike burnt cookies too, cept when they are just a little over-done on the ends, then that's nummers! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Jo

Chris, those are VERY good words!

There is a definite danger in telling someone what to do with their marriage and in saying bad things about the spouse. Nothing is impossible with God, not even reconciliation (despite adultery). I have read wonderful and increadible testimonies of restored marriages even after adultery!! IF someone tells someone else neg. stuff about the spouse or tells them "move on" blah, blah, well, that might not be what God wants them to do. When you advise someone, you really don't know what God's will for them might be.

I have a friend who separated from her husband for 3 1/2 mos. (long time ago) because her husband was alcoholic. Many people said, "divorce him", "leave the loser," "he'll never change." Even a pastor gave her stats. on how few times alcoholics change. People would say, "You know, it is very rare that alcoholics change, blah, blah." Well, this woman took advice from only one place: God's Word. She did not want to divorce her husband because she wanted to keep her vows, but she did separate because his alchoholism was harming the family. Well, wouldn't you know it, 3 1/2 mos. later, he's back and hasn't had a drink in 10+ years. Thank God she did not listen to naysayers!!!

Also, a woman named Erin Thiele had a husband who cheated on her. Everyone told her to leave him, blah, blah. He divorced her. She held on. People thought she was nuts, in denial, etc. She didn't care. She took advice from one place: Scripture. 2 years later and her husband repented and they remarried, had three more beautiful children, and now they have a marriage reconciliation ministry and have been married several years. Thank God she didn't listen to the negatives.

We MUST be careful in the things we say. It does NO good to badmouth someone's spouse EVEN IF that spouse has done horrible things. I can tell you a more better way. Instead of badmouthing him/her, PRAY for him/her.

None of us is above sin! NONE of us, even the adulterer or abuser. Pray for those spouses because Satan has deceived them and they are "lost" and in need of the healing power of God's love and the truth. Pray for the adulterer, pray for the hurting spouse, pray for the marriage. God can heal and God can do miracles and I wish more people would believe and pray vs. condemning and thinking someone will never change.

A testionial word from a man named Bob Steinkamp who cheated on his wife and divorced her (they now have an awesome marriage reconciliation ministry. www.rejoiceministries.org)

"Twelve years ago our home was destroyed by the bomb of divorce. Bob walked away, declaring his love for someone else. Charlyne faced a decision. She could have our severely damaged home leveled, and then attempt to rebuild with another man, or she could search those ruins until her Bob was found, emotionally hurt, but alive. A wife set out, with the Lord's help and guidance, to search the ruins of her home. She wore a hard hat, because the hurting words of well-intentioned friends constantly fell, telling her to forget Bob and reminding her how futile her search had become.

There came a day two years later when her words echoed out from far within our destroyed home. Bob had been found and was alive! The skeptics turned into believers the day we were remarried. Yes, it took a while, but our home was rebuilt. Our new marriage is now constructed to be bomb-proof, with our Lord Jesus Christ as the foundation. How sad it would be to level a bombed-out building with survivors still alive inside. How sad it is to level a damaged marriage when there is still life.

Dear friend, in a hurting marriage, our prayers are with you during the days of rescue and recovery for your family. Don't give up!

"When the nations around you that remain will know that I the Lord have rebuilt what was destroyed and have replanted what was desolate. I the Lord have spoken, and I will do it.! Ezekiel 36:36

Chris-
You are SO right! No one should ever tell someone else to divorce...it IS their option, and they do not need the "dump the $%#^" advice here that the rest of the world is usually only too happy to provide.

Wiffty-
Yes, there are times when someone seems to be being abused. In cases like that, I usually try to point out abuse and counsel them to get help and/or to physically separate if safety is an issue. It is still not for me to make someone feel like a stupid idiot for being married to their spouse.

The funny thing is that I know of 2 sucess stories where I really thought things were hopeless, and if I'd been forced to answer "do you think I should divorce" I would have said yes. Crystal balls are not foolproof.

Kathi

<small>[ August 03, 2003, 05:16 AM: Message edited by: kam6318 ]</small>

I agree (and is basic therapy 101) you cannot (and should not) tell anyone certain basic life choices...

1. Who to marry (or date, or divorce)

2. What kind of job/career/education to pursue.

3. What beliefs re our existence to hold.

4. ........ well you get the jist.

These are fundamental choices that define (and celebrate) who we are. No one can make them for us, lest we simply become a caricature of ourselves (an image of whoever we let define us by their agenda). However, one can most certainly comment (and absolutely should), on peoples circumstances.

1. The marriage you are in, is unhealthy for you because _________ ONE of your choices is distancing yourself from this unhealthy relationship, here is how you do that, and the consequences (and benefits). [you could also do the same with each option, such as suggesting MB, etc.].

2. The job you are in may not be your best choice because __________ (maybe the management is poor, and the company has less opportunity for ones growth because of that, etc.).

3. Your belief system should make sense in certain logical ways (else we define people as mentally ill), I have these concerns ________ about what you profess to believe. What is your response.

In other words it is ok, and desireable, for people to comment on each others well-being, and make suggestions about your well-being. But even a doctor will not operate without YOUR decision. I think most of us realize this, and the fact that no one can actually tell someone to "divorce" someone, so the premise of this thread is moot....you cannot tell someone to divorce/dump cause one has no authority or capacity to make that telling happen...it is only advice. But I do agree that it is not a helpful communication, it is much better to explain someones options to them, discuss with them, and emphasize they must make decisons. Likewise it is very unhelpful (in exactly the same way), to tell people they should stay married, that they cannot divorce, and that somehow it will all work out if they just keep trying/praying/waiting...this is EXACTLY the same as telling someone to divorce, work on yourself, and life will be better....the point is no one can know these things for someone else. Those who tell someone to keep trying forever, usually hide behind God in justifying their attempt to impose a choice....I don't think that is a proper application of Christianity.

...quote I have a friend who separated from her husband for 3 1/2 mos. (long time ago) because her husband was alcoholic. Many people said, "divorce him", "leave the loser," "he'll never change." Even a pastor gave her stats. on how few times alcoholics change. People would say, "You know, it is very rare that alcoholics change, blah, blah." Well, this woman took advice from only one place: God's Word. She did not want to divorce her husband because she wanted to keep her vows, but she did separate because his alchoholism was harming the family. Well, wouldn't you know it, 3 1/2 mos. later, he's back and hasn't had a drink in 10+ years. Thank God she did not listen to naysayers!!!

Also, a woman named Erin Thiele had a husband who cheated on her. Everyone told her to leave him, blah, blah. He divorced her. She held on. People thought she was nuts, in denial, etc. She didn't care. She took advice from one place: Scripture. 2 years later and her husband repented and they remarried, had three more beautiful children, and now they have a marriage reconciliation ministry and have been married several years. Thank God she didn't listen to the negatives.

Sufdb...This is wonderful for those individuals, but means nothing more than it worked out for them. Not to mention their are many other aspects to those stories that are unknown, maybe it would have been better not to remarry (for a whole host of reasons). Maybe one of the partners is carrying the marriage and denying their own growth in some other path. Relationships are very complex entities, with lifetime consequences arising from the exact nature of each circumstance. We are (to some degree) different with each potential partner, so it is impossible to say a given recovery is the best choice (after a marriage fails).

Some folks are just bulldogs, they will not let go of anything (thinking of the bob example)....what she got back may be good, may not, it may just be she has obsession issues and was able to bend bob to her will (which is not to his benefit, just hers), who knows. As for the alcoholic issue, that makes sense, people can (occassionally) rise above this behaviour, and seperation (if one wants to continue with this individual) is the proper first step, and it worked...usually it does not.

If divorce was never a legitimate choice, then then the inescapable conclusion implied is it makes absolutely no difference who we marry, just that we are married. I don't know anyone who actually is comfortable with that notion....That also means the marriage is more important than the welfare of the individuals in it....I don't know anyone who actually believes that either.

...quote...We MUST be careful in the things we say. It does NO good to badmouth someone's spouse EVEN IF that spouse has done horrible things. I can tell you a more better way. Instead of badmouthing him/her, PRAY for him/her.

sufdb...I agree we should be careful. But ignoring (and not pointing out) the bad behaviour of someones spouse does not seem to me a good idea. In fact it is a VERY BAD idea, as it helps keep people stuck in denial. Every year in this country THOUSANDS of women are murdered, and/or brutally beaten by their husbands (not to mention millions of other abusive/neglectful marriages). Hopefully none of them were put at risk by well-meaning (but ignorant) individuals who didn't tell them to get out of harms way (seperation/divorce) as quickly as possible, but instead said all things in God are possible, let's just keep praying about this.

That is the problem with "leaveing our lives to God"...that is NOT what God says or wants us to do. He gave us brains, and freewill, and expects us to use them in ordering our lives. Not use Him as an excuse to remain in unhealthy circumstances (whatever they may be). Praying is fine, no harm, but using that as a crutch not to take action is not fine.

...quote...God can heal and God can do miracles and I wish more people would believe and pray vs. condemning and thinking someone will never change.

Sufdb...Yes he can, and those miracles can take many forms...I would imagine those folks posting on resilients thread about the joy of their second marriages probably feel like a miracle occured. So do those who escape abusive/neglectful marriages and finally (after a time) come to their senses, think a miracle occured. The fact is many many people are not safe marital partners, and the world is full of sad, bitter, empty 50 year marriages because in fact people often do not change. Not including that fact in ones assessment of their own circumstances makes it much harder to make healthy decisions.

<small>[ August 03, 2003, 10:31 AM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>

Sufdb, I don't agree with alot of things you said, but don't feel like adressing it all now.

However, I will say one thing. Nancy Reagan is married to a man who can barely function due to Alzehemers disease. Michael J. Fox's wife is married to him knowing he is going to die and deteriorate mentally. Chrisopher Reeve's wife is married to him despite his disability. Joni Erickson Tada, paralyzed from neck down, has a husband who takes care of her. He married her after she was a quadrapeligic.

Marriage is not about "what can you do for me." It is not about happiness either. It is about commitment and love. Love seeks to give. Love does not seek its own. Love endures. It is patient. It is longsuffering (willing to be mistreated). Love ALWAYS hopes, ALWAYS believes. That's Scripture! 1 Cor. 13.

It is not right of you to question the marriages that have been restored, or what I mean is, to say the things about them that you did, esp. to say maybe it'd been better that they didn't remarry.

You know, the one couple, Erin and Dan sent me a Christmas card. In it, there are seven beaufiul children, all look happy and healthy. In the back, stand four kids... all older (h.s. and college age), three boys and a girl. Then there is Dan and Erin. And in the front, are these three adorable younger kids (elem and j.h. age). I cried when I saw it because of the realization that had they not remarried, those three children in front would not be in existence. Those four kids in back would possibly have stepchildren. One of the parents might be dead from suicide (we all know divorce causes great depression, sorrow, regret, etc... and many suicides and domestic murders are done during ugly divorces).

When they first got pregnant, it was immediately after they reconciled. Their family said, "don't... he might leave again... you are not ready... you should not have another kid... etc." They did not listen (praise God!). They had three more kids and they have stayed married and they have an awesome ministry.

May I never have the responsibility for hindering the reconciliation of any marriage and may I never bear the guilt of encouraging divorce or separation. ONLY God knows what is best for anyone! ONLY GOD! In His Word, He says "do not divorce". So obviously, I can say that divorce is not God's will, but you and no one else can ever say that someone won't change or that divorce is better, etc... because you have no idea what God could have done had they stayed married and you have no idea what God can do to two people who trust Him adn keep their vows.

You said, "Those who tell someone to keep trying forever, usually hide behind God in justifying their attempt to impose a choice....I don't think that is a proper application of Christianity."

Why?? Can a person be single and a Christian? Does God guarantee us a happy or pain-free life? Basically, if a person "keeps trying forever", that means, in other words, they don't remarry. Can't God take care of them if they stay single?

Maybe you can give some Bible verses to support what you have said, because I don't find it to be Biblical.