..........dont see the big picture......they want their freedom, but they have to realize things may not go as they plan. They may then want to come back home, but it could be too late. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

<small>[ September 05, 2003, 03:59 PM: Message edited by: StartinOver ]</small>

Oh so very true. They see short term satisfaction...A BREAK...not long term or what marriage might become if they tried harder. They give up easily as they feel it will be easier. Actually divorce is harder than staying together and working on something that you took vows in front of God. Remember: Quitters never win and Once a quitter always a quitter!!!

There are alot of variables here. What do you mean rush into divorce. Does ex having two very complicated affairs in less than one year even while in mc count as rushing into divorce?

Does being physically abused or even verbally abused for many years count as rushing into divorce?

Yes those of us who are now divorced did take vows and yes divorce is a very hard thing to do but soemtimes there is no alternative.

Jill

Maybe you meant WSs who rush into divorce? (confused)

I know that staying with my x-WW would have been HELL compared to hell of my divorce. Vows taken in front of God do not excuse me from not using my God-given gifts to remove me from a pointless and painful situation.

Once a quitter always a quitter... you should say that your wayward. If you have the strength to put up with some of this stuff - good for you. Is there anything useful we can contribute to your generalization?

Cheers and good luck.

Jill-
You are right. I am sorry for my short sighted answer. There are variables and you hit upon them. I guess I was responding from my situation. In my case...there was hope. Sorry to hear about your situation. Some people are just not meant to be married or deserve someone special. Thanks for setting me straight.

It`s so hard not to relate our replies to our own situations. Every situation is different of course. Each partner in each marriage has their own principles. Some tolerate a great deal before even thinking of the "D" word. Others run for the town hall the moment any trouble arises. I think the tendency for one to run immediately after a divorce has a lot to do with their own past life experiences; childhood traumas, the relationship role models they witnessed, etc.

Absolutely, some marriages should not be maintained, but many more could be saved with the principles discussed at this site. People have a hard time choosing something they know will be difficult; e.g. working on reconcilation. They rather then choose the unknown; a new independent single life. In the end, many discover that the difficult "known" choice would have been better.

Standing in Finland

"rushing for divorce". I guess that's what my ex would say I did. He probably would also say that there was still hope for us and I should have been more committed to our marriage. He was very committed to our marriage, after all he told me on several occasions that he would be "willing" to stay married to me until our daugter got out of highschool.
After years of degradation including being called a bad mother and a bad wife nearly everyday, referred to as a "casual sexual partner" despite 10 years of marriage and being told he "could divorce me any day" on a frequent basis I guess I rushed into divorce. I probably should have put up with the emotional abandonment and his extramarital affair, too since there was still hope he would change.

I too "rushed" it after 20 years of marriage. I hung in there, I stuck it out, I was faithful to my marriage and kept *hoping* that things would change. I finally had it and asked for the divorce. I started doing things on my own (while he stayed in the house and continued his abuse). Our home had holes punched in the doors (but he never *hit* me). I too on a daily basis heard how stupid I was, how useless I was as a wife, how wrong my opinons were (strange how his life was so wonderful because I did everything for him) Hearing, "No one will ever put up with you the way I put up with you," or "You'll never have anyone as good as me," or "You think there's something better out there??" or "I'm the best thing that happened to you."

So flash forward....he's dragged me to court 42 times... squandered all the matrimonial property so that I am the one in dire straights, moved in the woman to take over all the *stuff* that I did, and tells all his friends how wonderful he is.

Did I want my marriage to work out? Of course I did. It wasn't until after the divorce that I really found out how dysfunctional it was. He with a multitude of affairs. Me finding internet conversations with women that he had slept with (alas with *no protection because I'm safe* -- he had a vasectomy)..and me running to my doctor's hoping and praying that I didn't have AIDS. I too heard the, "I'll be WILLING to stay married to you until the kids grow up" (of course with the quiet little -- "and have all the women I want, spend money the way I want, have you wait on me hand and foot, do whatever I want when I want").

So his version -- I rushed the divorce
My version -- Is 20 years of hoping and praying things would improve *rushing*?

Sorry...but this thead is very disturbing. Makes me think about things I really don't want to think about -- but guess have to in order to find peace with it all. Thanks for letting me vent.

I agree that many rush to divorce.

I was the WS,but my now exH filed for divorce. I begged him to work on the marriage, but he wouldn't.

A week before it was final I begged again, and the answer was 'no'.

It's now 13 months later, and he's now 'considering' a relationship with me. Maybe divorcing me was something he needed to do, in light of the fact that I'd been unfaithful. He had no control in my cheating, but he could control things by divorcing me. I understand it, really.

My plan is to wait around for him as long as it takes. He hasn't dated anyone since we separated years ago. I ended the affair/mistake of my life fourteen months ago.

It's not good to rush into divorce, but I think for many it's the only way to feel control. Maybe that's okay?

Hopeful

Hopeful
I'm sorry to say this but what did you expect your ex to do? Try to tolerate an affair? I don't know why he wants to get back with you right now but being betrayed is a terrible experience and hard to get over or work out. Don't kid yourself, nothing will ever be the same after the affair, he will never truly be able to trust you and that will inhibit intimacy. You might think you made a mistake now but also think what has really chaged if anything about him. If you got back with him would he satisfy all of your needs so that you wouldn't need to have another affair?
A wise (and very religious) man once told me to fly away like an eagle for fresh food and ignore dead meat.

Ruby,
I guess I didn't make myself clear. I of course understand why my husband did what he did.

You said,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Don't kid yourself, nothing will ever be the same after the affair, he will never truly be able to trust you and that will inhibit intimacy. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think there are many here who would disagree with you. Many people here on the MB board have been betrayed, and gone through recovery. They've said their marriages are better than ever. It is a MARRIAGE BUILDING board. If everyone simply gave up after infidelity, there wouldn't be many marriages left nor would any of Dr. Harley's theories or beliefs hold true.

You also said, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
A wise (and very religious) man once told me to fly away like an eagle for fresh food and ignore dead meat.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There's a cliche or quotation in life to justify any situation or opinion. I don't think one can shrink down what to do about a thirty year relationship and 21 year marriage into one sentence. Nor do I think anyone's behavior or actions be condensed into one horrible mistake of their lives.

If you think that's a good way to live by feeling in such a manner, that's your choice. Just don't think we all hope to live that way. For me that would be a real downer, as everyone makes mistakes, and no one is perfect. I look at the big picture.

HP

Hopeful person
The one thing you didn't reply to in my post was the question I directed at you
"what has really chaged if anything about him. If you got back with him would he satisfy all of your needs so that you wouldn't need to have another affair?"

Ruby,

Your question hits on an important point...however, wouldn't there be a lot less divorce and adultery if people considered this question before getting married?

I also find this topic quite amusing, as if rushing to take back your own life is a bad thing. Almost as if it is ok to rush into a marriage and an affair because of "love", but rushing into a divorce makes you a quitter.

Many are duped before marriage, but many also know what they are marrying, and I think it is wrong to expect someone to change all behavior just because they got married.

Hoping
You point out important issues. Remember our mothers saying "Honey, think again before you say I do, he will never change" but I think it's not that simple. Relationships are dynamic and change over time. We, change over time. A man that meets our needs when we are 24 may not be able to fulfill that role 10 years later. Conversely we may not be able to meet his needs anymore either.
Most people delay divorce to their own detriment, especially when children are involved. Staying in an unfulfilling relationship eventually erodes into your self esteem. You get depressed and even lose your ability to adequately parent your children. Wanting to get out is not a sin nor is it quitting. Starting divorce proceedings is actually only the beginning of a terrifying and unknown path. It's lonely and very painful at times. It takes more courage sometimes to walk away than to stay. I struggled with the idea of divorce for 4 years before I filed. Nothing changed in those 4 years despite my trying so hard. My ex refused to go to marital counseling and remained emotionally unavailable. Our divorce became final in June and my ex asked me just yesterday if I was happier now and to be very honest I am! I have my life, my self esteem and my self respect back.

Wow... I bet Starting Over didn't anticipate the replies to that! To be honest, I don't think he (she?) was really talking to any of you specifically but more in general. GENERALLY speaking, divorce is VERY easy and many people divorce quickly and in situations where the marriage can be, could be worked out, but they simply don't want to or they want to find a "better" spouse.

It's been like that since Moses' day! It's nothing new! In Deuteronomy, Moses says the Lord permitted divorce because men's heart was "hard." They were divorcing women for all sorts of things... she burnt the toast, basically. I mean, it was simply because the wife didn't "measure up" to his desires/standards.

Anywyas, I read someone say how it is easier to divorce his wife of 20 years than to fire an employee of one week! That is sad. I agree that divorce is much to "easy" to get and much to acceptable in our society. I believe that many marriages could have been saved if someone would've encouraged reconciliation vs. divorce or "moving on" after divorce.

Our society makes a mockery of marriage.

Again, GENERALLY speaking. I am not talking ot anyone specificaly in here who filed for their divorce due to rampant affairs, abuse, etc.

Ruby, you said, "Most people delay divorce to their own detriment, especially when children are involved."

??? I don't agree. Divorce is very rarely ever beneficial for children. Children need both parents in the home. What is best is BOTH people working on the problems, making necessary changes, and fighting for the marriage and watching God heal and restore. Yes, there are those situations of rampant adultery and abuse, BUT most divorces are due to "irreconcilabe differences."

You also said, "Staying in an unfulfilling relationship eventually erodes into your self esteem."

Disagree. You know what has eroded my "self esteem" more than anything in this world?? My divorce? You know what has devestated me more than anything in this world? My divorce. Besides, what is my goal... my "self esteem" or obeying and serving God? I was a FOOL in my marriage because I thought alot of stupid things about "self esteem" and stuff like that, and it cost me dearly. Marriage is a COMMITMENT. It's not about self-esteem.

You said, "You get depressed and even lose your ability to adequately parent your children." Actually I got VERY depressed after the divorce.

You said, "Our divorce became final in June and my ex asked me just yesterday if I was happier now and to be very honest I am! I have my life, my self esteem and my self respect back."

My divorce was final in October, and I have never been more sad and grieved in my entire life. I am NOT happier and have lower "self respect" and "self esteem." Not to mention the sadness and loss of my family, friends, and all the pain of the entire thing.

Go figure!

You point out important issues. Remember our mothers saying "Honey, think again before you say I do, he will never change" but I think it's not that simple. Relationships are dynamic and change over time. We, change over time. A man that meets our needs when we are 24 may not be able to fulfill that role 10 years later. Conversely we may not be able to meet his needs anymore either.

So if we change, we aren't to change together and stay committed, but just throw up our hands and say ok, forget it, you have changed and I have changed, see you later? What about the vows made?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> GENERALLY speaking, divorce is VERY easy and many people divorce quickly and in situations where the marriage can be, could be worked out, but they simply don't want to or they want to find a "better" spouse.[/ </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Out of all the classes that I have attended...Rebuilding, DivorceCare to name only two -- all the participants, including myself, felt that divorce was extremely difficult and a long process. Maybe that's because it's Canada? I don't know, but in my particular case, it's been over 3 years and the matrimonial property STILL hasn't been settled yet. Equity from the matrimonial home is STILL held in trust with the courts.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My divorce was final in October, and I have never been more sad and grieved in my entire life. I am NOT happier and have lower "self respect" and "self esteem." Not to mention the sadness and loss of my family, friends, and all the pain of the entire thing.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess it all depends on perspective? The circumstances, the people, everything contributes to the end result. My children are happier, healthier. Their marks in school have soared. Their friends have multiplied. They have more in terms of basic needs (dad now want's to be the top dog, therefore will now buy them clothing that they need, or readily pay for the extra's required for school). He also is spending MORE time with them than he ever did when we were together. He just couldn't do that when we were married.

As for self-esteem and self-respect -- in my case he was abusive, so yes, self-esteem increased when I understood that I was responsible for how *I* feel and also where my path was leading. It took me time to un-learn all the bad and replace it with good -- and I'm still learning.

We all mourn our relationships. Don't get me wrong, my ex did some very bad things, and yes there are days when I want vengence...but it's not mine to own. Regardless of how *bad* things were, I still loved my husband and in many ways was in love with him even when we split -- I just couldn't live with him because he was destroying my soul. I could stand up to myself and set boundaries and he would be MORE abusive. I could tell him that what he said made me feel hurt, sad, and he would step up the abusiveness a notch. I ended up saying nothing. I lived like a mute in my own house. He was the king and we were to shut up and follow his every order and respond to every command. There are days where I still mourn -- but those days are further apart these days. I realized that what I was *mourning* and what I ended by divorce, was a fantasy. I was mourning what should have been and never was. It's an ending ... a sad ending, but I'm working towards healing. That's part of the process. Just talking from the perspective of *wanting* the divorce, I knew it was the best thing for me and the children. Three years later --- he is *still* abusive and he *still* has made NONE of those promised changes. I am working towards *peace* and by myself showing my children love, respect, trust, responsibility, and everything that a parent should be modelling to their children. I couldn't do that in a dysfunctional marriage when my partner would be yelling profanities at me holding his fist in the air threatening to hit me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What is best is BOTH people working on the problems, making necessary changes, and fighting for the marriage and watching God heal and restore. Yes, there are those situations of rampant adultery and abuse, BUT most divorces are due to "irreconcilabe differences."
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know, my ex would totally agree with you here. His divorce was because I didn't listen to him. He gave *everything* and *changed* everything to suit me. In reality he may have *changed* in his mind, but outwardly in the real world he did nothing. You are very right when you say BOTH people to work on the problems. In most cases though, only one is totally committed to working on the relationship. My ex didn't believe in God. His solution to mending our broken relationship was to use more threats, intimidation, isolate me so we could be *together*, humiliate me and claim it was in jest, and also would use scripture to say that the wife is to "submit" and to "obey". Sometimes it just doesn't work.

LoveMyEx, it is obvious you are in a lot of pain. Divorce is a road that is very difficult. I too felt very sad after our divorce. A year isn't a very long time to be *healed* or *recovered*. I'm still struggling and it's been 3 years since that day. DivorceCare brought me great comfort as did this board. What I get every day is more wisdom and courage to be the best person that I can be.

My opinion only ----> I think we all respond to the posts in here that speak the loudest to us. We argue, bicker, banter points back and forth because they hit us in a place that we don't like. Sitting back and really thinking about why Ruby1's post brought those feelings is the first step towards understanding your own feelings and actions in your marriage. As with me, examining how I'm responding to your post shows be more insight into myself -- and for that I thank you.

I wish you peace and happiness -- and encourage you to look further into the unhappiness you are feeling right now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LoveMyEx:
<strong>Wow... I bet Starting Over didn't anticipate the replies to that! To be honest, I don't think he (she?) was really talking to any of you specifically but more in general. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exactly!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

TOO many RUSH into divorce.
They seem to believe that their next spouse is thee best. What they fail to consider, is their own maturity, and the self changes as for personal needs being met, and fulfilled. The maturity level increased,,,,,

Public opinion expert Louis Harris offers an explanation. He says, "The fact is that in 1981 the number of divorces did hit a record total of 1,213,000. Marriages also reached a record of 2,422,000. Some quick-read experts then put the two sets of facts together and concluded that since there were half as many divorces as marriages, it could be concluded that half of the marriages were doomed to failure. But the facts show that only 10% of all ever-married men and a slightly higher 13% of all ever-married women are divorced" (p.86, Inside America, Louis Harris, 1987, Vintage Books, New York).

Mixed signals also come from the painful experiences of life. During many years as a pastor, I have been involved with scores of divorce situations. Sometimes, as in cases of extreme mental or physical abuse, I longed to see a woman become freed from the terror of an abusive husband. Yet, I was uncomfortable advising action that had no clear biblical grounds for divorce and remarriage.

In many cases, I wanted to help the abusive husband overcome his problem. Changed lives seemed more preferable than divorce action that would divide children, friends, and family assets.

Yet, sometimes I felt great relief when the divorce proceedings began. In one instance, a wife patiently endured a heavy drinking, sexually immoral husband for 4 years, during which she twice contracted a venereal disease. He had professed faith in Christ shortly before they were married, attended church with her for a short time, and then went back to his old ways.

The confusion over divorce, however, is not just rooted in statistics, or even experience. Mixed signals are also found in the Bible. On one hand, the Old Testament prophet Malachi declared, "The LORD God of Israel says that He hates divorce" (Mal. 2:16). Yet God Himself admits to divorcing Israel (Jer. 3:8). On one occasion, the prophet Ezra insisted that the men of Israel divorce the pagan wives they had married (Ezra 10:10-17). Later, Jesus said that sexual immorality is the only grounds for divorce (Mt. 19:9). Yet the apostle Paul taught that divorce is also permissible if a Christian is married to a non-Christian who no longer wants to be married (1 Cor. 7:15).

Does the Bible contradict itself about divorce? No. Even though many godly Bible students disagree on what the Bible teaches about divorce and remarriage, I believe the Scriptures offer guidelines for those contemplating divorce and remarriage. Even in cases of physical abuse, which has become such a troubling issue in our day, I am convinced that the Bible gives us answers.

article from http://www.growthtrac.com

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<small>[ September 08, 2003, 08:31 PM: Message edited by: Stephan ]</small>