My oldest boy (10) just told me tonight that his mother told him I did NOTHING to stop the divorce??? He trys to talk with her and she 'rubs my back but doesn't say anything'. "She thinks the divorce is a good thing." "She doesn't understand how it tears me up inside" "It is so hard to love someone that just doesn't care if they hurt you or not."


These are quotes that I heard tonight among other things, recurrent and new. I can deal with her lying to her friends, co-workers, etc. about the divorce, but I cannot abide her lying to my son. She wants to act like nothing occurred that was her doing, although he can clearly see that she is continuing to choose herself over everyone else. I have always tried to sidestep the heavy divorce talk with my boys, preferring to take pieces off the mountain as we talk about things together.

However, I am SO ANGRY that she has chosen to LIE to him about this divorce. She can be quiet, and I won't mess with her and her little world she has so intricately constructed. However, I am at a loss about what to do when she starts lying to my boys saying that 'I didn't do anything to stop the divorce'. I went to her at least half a dozen times confessing my desire to remain married during the first several months after she left us. The last, about 2 weeks after confronting her about affair number 4 (or more as I suspect). I asked her to go to counseling with me, alone, etc. I would pay. I asked her for a long separation. She chose to spend the separation time 'doing' anything that moved. After which, I decided that the base character of the woman that would choose to be this way IS NOT someone that I would ever choose to associate with... much less share my bed and home with.

It is true that after I found out about the rest of the men, I just quit trying I had plan A'd for 6 months. She came back then left again for some NEW/OLD (who cares, it doesn't matter,) lover. She just kept hurting me with accusations that she admitted were not true when confronted, lying, threatening custody then filing full, etc.

Well, I am not sure what to do. I know that I didn't handle it very well with my boy when he told me. I wasn't as calm as I should have been. I did not get overtly angry, however, the tone of my voice changed, and I didn't catch it quick enough. He said, I just don't know what to say.

I told him he should NOT be in the middle. I told him that I loved him very much, and that his mother loves him in her own way. He said "I know, it is just so hard to love someone who just doesn't care about how much they hurt you."

I was crushed. I just don't know what to do. I completely and utterly support him in EVERYTHING. He talks with me all the time about this stuff. Both boys see a counselor each week, but he is having such a hard time with everything. If he was with ME all the time, I think that we could get straightened out in time, but he is 'thrown back into the pit' in his words every week, as she disregards him and they end up watching one of their 4 TVs.

I don't know how to confront her with this. I know that he never could have come up with this on his own. He says that 'what she says and what she DOES are two different things'. "She is happy with the divorce", therefore just can't see what it is doing to him. She is the classic ignorer. If she doesn't like a problem, she just ignores it and hopes it goes away. ESPECIALLY if she is the cause of the problem.

<small>[ January 06, 2004, 05:26 AM: Message edited by: Formerly Confused ]</small>

I guess that is the risk when you accidently have children with liars and cheaters. You have to "share" the kids with the cheater and still be in contact with them even as the kids become more and more damaged and confused.

Can kids be told THE TRUTH about the mom having affairs and having sex with other men? And what other lies she tells? So that they can understand mom's character (or lack of)?

Or is this too much for kids to handle. I am sorry for your pain. And that you have to share your precious kids with a cheater/liar/selfish idiot like your EX. For the next 15-20 years.

Hi FC.,
Sorry you also have to suffer this kind of fallout, and even worse, watch almost helplessly, as it continues to impact your kids negatively.
My boys are also with the ex., and their behaviour seems mainly dictated to by a need to please both myself and their mother.
I also sometimes worry what she tells them about the divorce and what happened; she is still seeing the same guy, and at the time we were still married, she told the kids he was "mommy's friend from work". Well, it's now apparent to all and sundry, including the kids, that "mommy's friend from work" is actually her boyfriend.
How this makes the kids view their mother, I don't know.
I decided a while ago, I was not going to make the kids choose sides, or involve them too deeply in the issues around the divorce. I have faith that they'll survive, and that will see the truth, without ending up hating either one of us.

muzohead

Kids say many things and we just get a piece of it. My X was furious because DD6 told him "I don't listen to her".
I got the questions again last night. "Why can't you live together" Why can't we be a family.

I've read many books on divorce and keep refering back to a simple book called "How to speak to your children about divorce". It's a really short book and it helps to answer questions such as these.
I am also looking forward to our local Rainbows group starting up again in March. My children got alot out of these classes - and I volunteered to teach the older kids (if the pastor approves and I take the training. It can only help me as my girls get older).

Last night DD6 was crying saying she wants us to live in the same house so Daddy can tuck them in a night and I can come in and kiss her goodnight. I may have been wrong, but I said, that never happened when we lived together. Daddy rarely spent time with you girls. Now, daddy has made the house much nicer and spends more time with both of the girls. She seemed to understand.
It's important to tell them (constantly) that the divorce had to do with adult problems, and that you tried to work out the problems but couldn't, and they had nothing to do with the divorce.

I need to start reading again. So I'm prepared for future questions.

Just for the future: The pastor that runs the Rainbows program said that children are impacted by the divorce at all ages, so you will continue to get questions. Now you are getting 10 YO questions, next year 11 year old questions. So it's important that we all learn how to discuss these issues with the children. They are blessings from God, and we must do our best to raise emotionally healthy children. I am convinced that I can raise them healthier now, outside the M, than I could if I had stayed in the M. It was an important realization for me.

Good LUck.

I really try NOT to involve them in the divorce. When he asks questions that directly have to deal with the divorce, I don't know what to say. I have never lied to him about anything and I am not going to start now. I guess I kind of did when I said that "WE" had decided to get a divorce. SHE decided and I realized I could do nothing to stop it, so I tried to not place it on her.

Now he asks me why "I" didn't want to be married. You see the conundrum??? I either have to say that I wanted the divorce which I did not, or I have to say that I didn't want the divorce which leads to his next question. WHY DID YOU LEAVE? WHY DID YOU DIVORCE THEN? I have to tell him the truth, not hatefully, but there is no way to say, "Your mother wanted to be single" or "Your mother didn't want me to live in the house any longer" etc. I just don't know what to say.

Newly, I do appreciate the reminder about that book. I will reread it and see what I can gleen from it once again. I don't care about 'being right'. I just want my children to grow up as happy as they can be, without thinking that I am the cause of all this turmoil in their lives. I got the hint last evening that my oldest boy might be wanting to come live with me. He probably wouldn't at this time because he wants to protect both his mother and me. 'I don't want to make her cry.' But I think he is starting to realize that she cares more about herself than she does about him, therefore, he needs to take care of himself, since she isn't looking to do it.

I know all this sounds angry, and it is. But it is also true, and I don't know what to do about it. My boys mean everything to me. She meant everything to me at one time. I cannot protect her from herself. But I have to try to look to the future and mitigate the effects of all this on my children.

Whatever I must do, I will do. Whatever will benefit them the most, I will accomplish, give up, negate, or allow. I just don't know what that is...

<small>[ January 06, 2004, 09:20 AM: Message edited by: Formerly Confused ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> without thinking that I am the cause of all this turmoil in their lives. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your post still sounds blaming to me.
Since there was no known infidelity in my situation, I can't imagine how you must feel.
I know I must accept responsibility for my part in the M and the D. In my case, that means seeing what I wanted to see, and not really knowing the person I married (even after 3 years of dating), and enabling poor behavior.

Are your children in counseling? If not, get them someone to whom they can talk. Also, there are many books out there that children can read to help themselves understand divorce.

I may be wrong, but I point out divorced families when I see them on TV. Although my kids are young, we watch 7th Heaven together. And I point out the divorced families. And when the parents kiss, I let them know that that's how married people show they love each other. And two marriages have been in turmoil on this show lately, and they see how people talk and work things out. Even on the cartoons Arthur & Rugrats, there are divorced families, and parents dating.

I never imagined myself divorced, and certainly not happy about it, but I am content with my life.
My children are very important to me, and raising them (and myself) to be emotionally healthy and happy people is one of my top goals. We must model good, healthy behavior for our children. We are not saints, we are human and we will make mistakes. And it's OK for our children to see our mistakes.

My DSG (divorce support group) and other D'd friends really help me in formulating what I say to my children. Support networks, whether formal or informal, are necessary for most of us.

Talk to someone if you don't think you have the right words to talk to your children.

I'm sorry you are having to deal with this. I know what it is like to have to turn over my little ones to a person who isn't looking out for them first. It is hard for me to comprehend that as a parent, but it is the truth.

I chose not to involve my children in the divorce either, but realized early on that there is such a thing as right and wrong, and that my children would recognize that. My oldest daughter was 4 when he left for the final time. She had lived through the last 10 months of him leaving and coming back and promising he would never leave again, and she was extremely vocal and perceptive about the situation. I never said anything "bad" about him, but when she asked me questions, I gave her age appropriate responses. She would say "Why did Daddy leave?" and I would say "Daddy decided he didn't want to be married anymore." Although the OW was a very close friend of ours, I didn't bring her into my answers or elaborate on anything. My kids know that God doesn't like divorce, and that marriage vows are extremely important. I choose to stress that their Dad loves them and that it is great that they get to have a relationship with him. We went to family counseling early on, and that was my biggest question - how do I deal with their questions while telling the truth and answering from a Christian perspective, but without saying anything negative about their father. Our counselor was very helpful in helping me to break things down.

Good luck - I'm sure this is heartbreaking to hear. I hope your son is able to work through his pain on this.

FC, you own part of the problem because you did want to get divorced. You said you did not want to be married to a person with your exw behavior/morality. Someday you will have to tell your sons that truth. Saying you didn't want to be divorced IF your wife changed (which is what you mean), is not the same as saying you did not want to be divorced. I advocate radical honesty in all relationships, but I modify that to be age dependent....a 10yo cannot properly grasp that truth IMO, you are between a rock and a hard place for sure....

My suggestion is this. Since you cannot tell the unembellished truth to your son, perhaps you can use another technique which can be very powerful. Take the time to craft a story, an analogy, that clearly contains your truth, but in terms your son can identify with as a 10 yo... That is what kids stories are often about...morality, ethics, life lessons, psychology...etc. Maybe you can do it here on MB, lots of talented folks, and lots of experience with your circumstances....but whatever you do, I think it is important you deal with this....otherwise your son may craft his own explanation and it may not be accurate or healthy, and may be unduly influenced by your exw misrepresentations.

<small>[ January 06, 2004, 10:04 AM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>

Formerly Confused - I can understand your frustration at this situation - You do not want to lie at all - And I don't really know what to tell you other than it depends on the child and what you think they are capable of knowing ?? I mean you could say that you loved your wife very much but that she didn't want to be married anymore and you cannot make someone stay married if they don't want to be. See I struggle with this issue all of the time - my girls are 10 and 13 and unfortunately they pretty much know the story - though - their father chose to sit them down and tell them he had an affair - of course his version was a huge bunch of lies totally - And I just told to tell them - that yes their dad did a bad thing and hurt me very much - I didn't stop loving him - he just didn't want to be married anymore - but that it had nothing to do with them what so ever - And that their Dad loved them still - He on the other hand continually tells them - I divorced your mother not you kids. Though the kids live with me -- and I will tell you - before the truth or a version of it came out - they pretty much knew what was going on - because even though they are children they hear and see an awful lot and form their own opinions. Now we have been divorced now for a year and they are starting to form their own opinions about their Dad - they really haven't seen that much of him - they don't talk to him that much - and I struggle with whether that is good for them or not - but I have come to the conclusion that the only one really trying to make the three of them have a relationship was me. I pretty much think that their Dad is the biggest child of them all - acting like a spoiled baby because everything isn't wonderful - that all is not forgiven as much as he would like it to be. It is very hard being a parent - in all cases - more so difficult in a divorced situation especially where there was infidelity and deciet. It is not a pretty picture - but you have to worry about your relationship with the boys - and only yours - your wife has to form her own - You can guide them and let them know that you will be there for them always - and tell him what you think is appropriate for him to hear - not putting him in the middle - not that his mother only cares about herself - but that yes you loved her and that it just didn't work out but not because you didn't want to -- in a way that he can understand and accept - And therapy is always a good idea - maybe you can go to therapy with him - I am actually just going to be starting with a new therapist and we are going to go as a family - my girls and I - ...

What I meant by this statement is that she is telling them that "I didn't do anything to stop the divorce." and that "I wanted the divorce." She does this in order to alleviate the fact that she filed every single form, pushed every single act, started every single argument, etc. during our divorce. This might sound 'pie in the sky', but it is the truth.

That is not the issue however. I don't want the boys thinking that I am responsible for their family's tearing apart. How my son views me is so important, because I know that his growth will be based significantly upon how he agrees/disagrees, empathisizes, revolts, etc. with my thoughts, beliefs, and actions. I don't WANT him to agree with me on everything, Lord knows I am not always right, NOR do I have a corner on the 'BEST' ways of doing things. But I want him to view me in truth. If he sees me as a flake, then let it be because I AM a flake. If he sees me as being dishonest or untrustworthy, then PLEASE let it be because of who I am and what I have ACTUALLY done rather than something he perceives I have done that has resulted in so much of his pain. If he sees me as someone who has caused the dissolution of his family, then he will see EVERYTHING that I do as tainted. He won't be able to see the actions without seeing that this 'role-model' is the person who broke 'my family apart'.

Think about people you do not like or disagree with. Then think about how you might view even the good things that they do with some degree of suspicion. Separating that out is important to me. Perhaps I am merely being overly cautious, and there will be little need to think that way. However, even though I know that I could love my father had he left my mom, I also know that I probably would not be able to completely trust him, nor take his word as strongly as I am able.

Hmmmm, don't know... all this is so 'new' to me. Even though it has been 2 years since D day. Trying to figure out what is going on and what to say and not say. Yes, I blame my ex... She made her choices and they have affected us all. What I am trying to do is learn how to live with that fact, and raise my boys in that fact. Clearly everything didn't happen in a vacuum, and my part of our marital issues were there for all to see.

However, those issues are NOT the problems that my children are living with now. They are not confounded by me working too many jobs. They are not confounded by my 'control'. They are confounded by their mother and father living separately. Not being able to have parents who consistently put their good at the forefront. they are confounded by a mother who 'gives up' her time with them in order to go on trips, then says that 'I leave town when I am not with you, because not having you makes me so lonely.' They see this and ask me about how she can think this way... What do you say???

I just am trying to figure out how to best raise my boys. I believe I am right in this, but it makes no difference. If I were wrong, then I would still strive to raise my boys as well as I could. It makes not difference to blame or not, just how I am able to deal with my boys with their best interests in mind.

Heh heh heh...

Sufdb,

My boys get so sick of me telling them 'stories' while I try to explain things to them. But I appreciate your thoughts none-the-less.

Yes, you are correct. I never wanted the divorce, but I also no longer wanted to be married to the woman she has chosen to be. She chose not to change anything about herself, and then became angry that I didn't make her happy. I gave far more than was healthy for me to give, and I believe that is also a reason that it hurts so much. I never held anything in reserve. But that is not who I am, and I can look at my actions and say, without a doubt in my mind,that I couldn't have done anything more. I could have done some things differently, but I never got the chance to learn. And frankly, the person she became was not someone I was interested in loving. I would not have divorced her, I would have waited and hoped that she would change. I thought about pushing things through, but I never did anything, because I knew in my heart that I always hoped she would come out of the fog. It just never happened.

Formerly Confused - I can see that this is really pulling you apart - and basically - you are their parent - Tell them what you feel is best - they may not understand or even need to understand all of the details - but tell them the truth none the less. Tell them that you love them and that you wanted more than anything to keep your family together but that sometimes that is just not possible - Hey maybe tell them that you both did the best that you could - And that you always want them with you -- and that it is not easy for you being apart from them but sometimes it is beyond your control. As for your wife - she is saying things to make herself feel better - so she can live with what she did to the family - and she can look better in the boys eyes - someday they are going to know the truth --- It is funny but I swear these WS actually believe most of what comes out of their mouths. but the sad thing is that you cannot control what she does and how she chooses to spend her time with or without the boys - You have to make the most of your time with them. And I say IMO that really if it means so much that they know that you didn't tear apart the family than I would tell them that. It is hard - I think every parent tries their hardest to be a good parent - and what is good in some peoples eyes is not good in others - so really I don't think there is a total right way to do this. You know your son - and you know how this is affecting him - Do you think if you told him the truth about you not wanting to tear apart the family would it make him feel better???

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> would not have divorced her, I would have waited and hoped that she would change. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I felt the same, and now see I was in DENIAL. Denial about the state of the Marriage. I was miserable, and the kids saw that. Your children definitely saw and probably understand more than you wish.

You can model good behavior now for them. Staying in a bad marriage may have taught them disrespect for their spouse, an inappropriate view of M, how to mistreat your spouse, and many other things you would not want your children to see. I want my children to see a healthy parent, an hopefully a good, strong marriage in my future, and to see true love (not to hear the words but see no actions).

This is where counselors can help explain, and help parents find the right words.

FC,

Can you explain to them that even though you did not *want* the divorce, and that you hoped things could have turned out differently--you and their mother had some problems that unfortunately you didn't know how to work through--and because we as adults couldn't figure it out--you kids suffer-and for that I am truly sorry--

Or--something like this--

Maybe your mom and I just didn't try hard enough to work through our problems, I don't know--but I do know it's not what I wanted--and if it's not what she wanted, then I guess neither one of us was really listening to what the other one was saying--


if you can't give an answer because your not sure how to answer it--be honest about that too--say I honestly don't know how to answer that in a way that you would fully understand--

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I may be wrong, but I point out divorced families when I see them on TV. Although my kids are young, we watch 7th Heaven together. And I point out the divorced families. And when the parents kiss, I let them know that that's how married people show they love each other. And two marriages have been in turmoil on this show lately, and they see how people talk and work things out. Even on the cartoons Arthur & Rugrats, there are divorced families, and parents dating. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually Newly, this is EXACTLY what spurred last nights talk. While in the bookstore at our church, my son saw several books on Strengthening your family, divorce, etc. He didn't say anything at the time. His mother took him and his brother to a movie Sunday night, "Cheaper by the dozen" and in it somewhere the parents are arguing and the child asks if they are getting divorced. He started talking last night after he asked to talk, about these things and how when he sees ANYTHING in the world having to do with family or divorce, how sad it makes him.

He gets sad when he has friends over and they talk about 'mom and dad'. He gets sad when he goes to their house and sees parents together. He said he feels cheated that he doesn't have those things that he used to have.

He was so angry last night... he had been crying so I got him a damp washcloth. He was squeezing and twisting it so hard that the veins on his neck were popping out. I just covered his hands with mine, and put my forehead against his and spoke softly telling him that things would be better, and that this is just a big huge bump in his life's road. I explained how much I loved his mother. How much I LOVED being in love with her. How GOOD love is and how much I love LOVE. How excited I am that he will be able to find a sweet girl someday and fall deeply in love. I spoke about the need to choose wisely and to look at everything about the person. I told him that he would get to have someone that cared about him and that it would be an absolutely wonderful feeling. (I realized just how much I really did love my ex throughout our marriage. I guess I still care for her, but it is so different now. It is much more pity and remorse at what could have been given different choices.)

I didn't badmouth his mom. I really wanted to a couple times. Mostly when he spoke about my 'NOT TRYING'. But I kept it in me. I am glad that I am able to let it out here instead.

<small>[ January 06, 2004, 01:36 PM: Message edited by: Formerly Confused ]</small>

It's great that you can talk to him and acknowledge his feelings, and let him cry. We've all cried through our ordeals.
And he should feel cheated. I feel cheated too that the person I chose to love was unable to love (I do hope he can really learn how to love his children now).

His feelings are in line with his age & experience. We will all continue to get these questions, and we are responsible for helping our children cope with these and other issues in their life. In a perfect world, they'd all have two parents raising them in the same household. We don't know how the other parent handles things, we can only be the best parent's that we are capable of being. And sometimes it's very hard. And we won't know the right words. Thank God we have MB and other support systems to help us - and help us grow in the wonderful people we are meant to be.

Hey Old Friend.

Sorry she's up to tomfoolery again...

First of all, I'd ask the counselors their opinion and see how they would tactfully approach this issue. You've been so fair to her with all you've done and given with the settlement and all this just keeps on and keeps on. You've been more than fair to her. But there comes a time when you have to say "enough" already. I would get the counselor's thoughts on how to discuss the resolution to this issue with the kids, have the counselors also document this for any future legal proceeding (hopefully not) and then inform your x that you've had to get professional help for your kids b/c she's been filling their heads full of lies and garbage when thekids need to just heal now. Tell her that if you have to you will contact your legal counsel and that she could be brought up on (and I am not sure what charge) but some type of contempt I would imagine. She passively does this kind of stuff but usually backs off when you take the drivers' seat so that's what I'd do with regard to her. Let her know that she is entitled to have her opinions, but that kids should only be told either truth or nothing and just let them heal and be responsible and supportive parents to them.

Some WS will never get it. It's like their fog clouds their judgement so much that they actually want the truth to become something that never was. Example...Last week, my son came home and said OW's son bit him on the stomach. And that OW son also lied and did (ok mind of a five year old all right) something that was wrong with regard to my son. OW's son is four. Son asked me what to do? I said to talk to his dad about it and tell his dad what OW child did. I also emailed x to let him know I documented this happening and that OW should control her child and that he should be watching out for his own child as well. You can't let bad things get out of hand...Whether it's something damaging said to a child, a child dealing with another child forced on him by virtue of an affair or whatever. My son was even told a lie by his dad and OW (almost 8 mos preggo btw)..that OW child is going to be his brother. That is not true. He will have a half sister and maybe a step brother. That totally confused my son. He asked if his daddy was Bradley's daddy too. And then he asked why his daddy and Ms. Family Values aren't married and are they a family? He's very very confused. Next paycheck will probably be me taking him to the really good child psych I was referred to. I just answer gently, honest, and very short. Don't elaborate too much as he's already a bit confused.

I would say to let her, the x, know not meanly, but succinctly that this cannot go on any longer. Also just keep listening to the kids as they know in their hearts you are there for them 100%...It's really sad, but WS sometimes seem to only react if something is perceived as bad to THEM instead of them just putting their children first. But that's the nature of the WS...It's all about them.

Me? Healing nicely. Doing pretty darn great in fact..New job is more than good btw.

Nice to see you post Peachy but I have to comment on the following:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My son was even told a lie by his dad and OW (almost 8 mos preggo btw)..that OW child is going to be his brother. That is not true. He will have a half sister and maybe a step brother. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is just semantics. When you have another child, that child will be his brother/sister (without adjectives) so allow J the same courtesy. Your son will have two families, and needs to feel comfortable in both.
Glad to hear the job is going well.

Sorry...should have clarified that...the OW child she will be giving birth to will be half sister...She, OW already has child, illegit three year old son that my x was telling my child that "this is your brother.". That will never be my son's real brother. He will have a half sister and who knows ? Could be more. So it was my wording that was incorrect. Sorry.