I've been away from here for a while but have a burning question as the end of my M has drawn near. A little background, I was a conflict avoiding, porn user who did love his wife, and my wife had ENs beyond my abilities, was unconcerned abut my SF, and had an A. Even with some Plan A and B, things couldn't be resolved. I have been shown through her words and deeds that there is no future for me in her life, and now I find myself headed toward Dv.

My question is, if God hates divorce, as it says in the Bible, can I be forgiven for giving up on our M? It is a covenant promise that I made and am worried about the eternal destiny of my soul. Is there still hope of going to heaven?

Opinions and commentaries are welcome.

God will forgive all our sins
that's why we keep making them

God will forgive all our sins
that's why we keep making them
Wrong.
We sin because we are human, not because God forgives us.

RTRC,
I think the first thing to be concerned with is forgiving yourself for giving up. I know that for me it is hard to be sure that giving up is the right thing to do.

Riding,
Many Christians struggle with this question. I have read a book entitled "Down But Not Out" authored by Al Maxey, a minister of the gospel, a brother in Christ and a personal friend. I found it very enlightening in light of the legalism surrounding divorce. You can find it at the following URL:
http://www.zianet.com/maxey/DBNOList.htm

Blessings and Prayers for you,

Riding - I am so sorry for your hurt and confusion. Please be comforted that our salvation rests not on our works or being a "good" person. Our salvation rests solely upon our relationship with Jesus Christ, the Author and Finisher of our faith. If you have confessed Jesus as Lord and invited Him into your heart as your personal Lord and Savior, you are saved (Romans 10:9-10, John 3:16).

As far as salvation and eternal security is concerned, God IS NOT impressed with our good works, our salvation is wrought from faith in Jesus' ultimate sacrifice for us.

The Lord DOES look at our works as a by-product of our salvation and He DOES expect us to conduct ourselves, as Christians, in a manner worthy of our calling, as representatives of the Gospel. This is not for the purpose of eternal security but for our growth and edification as believers. When we stumble, as we inevitably will, Jesus offers FREE forgiveness and restoration.

Bottom line is - your eternal security is not precluded upon the condition of your marriage. I encourage you to seek Jesus with all your heart and do all within your power to save your marriage, change yourself, and go on with your life. If your marriage cannot be salvaged, DON'T live under guilt and condemnation, as that is from the accuser of the brethren, satan.

John 16:33.

I think it depends on your God. My God would forgive me. And my God hates many other things more than divorce. Including adultery, murder, abusing his creations. In fact, perhaps, we should look deeper at the scriptures. I think it would be more accurate to say that God hates the root causes of divorce. God is not pleased if you remain married to someone who abuses you. God is not pleased if you remain married and continue to have affairs.

On the other hand, I’m an off-beat Christian who’s all good, all knowing, all powerful would not sink to such a human emotion as hate. I would even question whether God has feelings in the sense we mortals use the word day in and day out.

I truly believe that God knows us better than we know ourselves.

<small>[ April 25, 2004, 08:38 PM: Message edited by: My Shadow ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Chris -CA123:
Wrong.
We sin because we are human, not because God forgives us. [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This was supposed to be a sarcasm... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />


... 'Covenant promise' was made not just to keep M ('dead letters on a paper') but behave accordingly, porn use (not)included (unless agreed upon with the spouse , among other things... don't see concern about this part (?)...

I thank Heaven and the spirit of Martin Luther for the gospel of Grace. And thank you HPK for reminding us of Grace.

I am not certain I understand who had the affair. I believe that as Jesus stated, marriage is forever. However, I also believe that divorce is NOT held as a vow when either infidelity and/or abandonment has occurred.

'...Except for marrital unfaithfulness' or some derivation thereof is most certainly attributed to Jesus' direct statement. And if you are going to believe in the New Testament, you should, at least in my opinion, believe in what he says concerning this statement.

When queried by the disciples, with the thought 'Then it is better not to get married at all'. Jesus taught that 'some are made for marriage, some celebacy, some choose celebacy' in essence in his discussion of being a eunich.

I DO believe however, that should we divorce for anything other than these two reasons, we are then to stay single. It is clearly stated multiple times in the New Testament, that these two reasons are 'OK', NOT required, but 'not looked down upon'. But it also clearly states that to divorce and remarry is sinful, at least concerning marriage after a divorce that does NOT stem from abandonment or infidelity. And my personal opinion is, and this probably differs from many here, but that although we can be forgiven for our sins, that does not include asking for forgiveness and then choosing to sin again. I mean this to say, we can't say "sorry" then pretend like we never did it. I know we repeatedly do the same sin over and over again. I know that I am guilty, more so than most I am sure.

This has been on my mind for quite some time. If a person has an affair and then repents and truly lives a Christian life, Can he/she remarry? My take on it would be NO. Forgiveness, I think, makes us right for our past choices and behaviors. But we are still bound by the laws and desires of God. Jesus said that to do otherwise would be to commit adultery. Thus while the person might be forgiven for the 'divorce' he is still bound by his choice to 'have married'. Perhaps, the real path to God, and part of repentance, is to devote yourself to God and live a celebate life. It is NOT for us to say that I should be 'allowed' to marry because I have seen the error of my ways. I don't know, and I know that alot of people think that there should be NO 'punishment' after true repentance. But my question is this, If a man rapes and murders your child and then during the course of the trial, finds repentance, remorse, and salvation... should he be freed based upon his current state of belief? I know that God is so far past our mere blip of understanding, however, I am not sure that while the adulterer/ress might truly be saved, I am not within the belief that he/she can choose whatever they want again as if they had no past. The rules change after you marry, at least it sounds like it within the scriptures.

In my opinion, different rules apply. Perhaps I am wrong, and I would never condemn someone for their choices. But should someone ask for my counsel, this would be my thoughts and reasoning. Initially, we are all equal in all ways. We make choices that differ us throughout our lives. We have a past that while perhaps it is not held against us, holds us to a different standard or future course of action than the person beside us. Those with children have resonsibilities to those children, as do those with parents. To disregard that responsibility is a sin, made more so by the person of the family than the person also living in the same city. The road that a person's choices set him/herself upon is not a straight and wide one. It is narrow, and although we can fall off repeatedly, we are responsible for those actions, even with forgiveness.

I am not at all sure that I really stated what I mean in this diatribe. I would be happy to elaborate on my thoughts in a more clear fashion should someone help me to see where they differ or where I am specifically unclear.

<small>[ February 10, 2004, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: Formerly Confused ]</small>

Thank you all for you comments. There are pieces of truth in all of them. For clarification, I was the porn user and she was the WS. And, "to look lustfully on a woman is to commit adultery in your heart." I've heard this one a lot since the revelation of her A. Because to WW, it represents justifiable symmetry for her actions.

Undrtkr...thank you for the reference, I'm reading away. It seems well thought out and Biblically based.

Self-forgiveness and accepting God's grace have always been a problem for me. But I have come to new submission of my life to God's will. He has freed me powerfully from much of my lust and continues to teach me and nourish me daily. Making me into the man he wants me to be.

It seems crazy that God would use a failed marriage and an A to bring about these changes to my life and drawing me into a closer relationship with Him. And it seems trite to say God works in mysterious ways, but he is powerful and wonderful.

There are sadder things than a failed marriage. To not know God is one.

In other words, if I had lived all my life in a "white picket fence" marriage with a compatible spouse, but never knew or sought to know God, I would be worse off than I am now. Of that I am certain.

I do think you're on the right track, seeking to please God in what you do with your life from here on, and that's all I will say!

Riding,
God gives powerful "wake-up" calls to those who are willing to hear Him. And, whose to say that this is necessarily the end? Keep trusting Him and stay in the Word, brother. My prayers are with you.

Undrtkr

Self forgiveness and accepting God's forgiveness of our sins is so important. I've read and heard several times about how sometimes we can tell ourselves "I can forgive that person, but I can't forgive myself".

This would mean our standards of forgivenes are higher than God's. He has come to forgive us of ALL of our sins, past present and future.

I do believe Divorce is the one thing in the Bible God actually says he "hates". That is a tough pill to swallow. But, there are reasons he allows us to D as long as it is for one of the reasons he mentions.


That's a good thought "There are sadder things than a failed marriage. To not know God is one."

God will do what ever it takes to get us back to him. I know for me it took the loss of my M to get me back to where I was supposed to be.

I think the first thing to be concerned with is forgiving yourself for giving up.
Then that would mean you are wrong for giving up.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think the first thing to be concerned with is forgiving yourself for giving up.
Then that would mean you are wrong for giving up.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I wouldn't say you are wrong to give up but it is a difficult thing to know that you are right to give up. Just because you have a doubt of being right doesn't mean your wrong.(accept in front of a jury)

Ed!!!
It's great to see you are still lurking around here. It sounds like you are doing ok and I saw you have a refinancing thread I'll read in a minute. Keep your head up man, we're gonna be ok.

Chris
You have a good point. Last week, I woke up in the middle of the night and my first thought was how my M to wife was constructed (I was the teacher, she the student, not literally just in interactive practice) and how I didn't want anything like that again. I want an equal partner. She probably does too.

God continues to fill me with hope and continues to shape the way I want a M to be. And I just don't see that happening with W. Mostly I have regret and remorse about my actions and how things turned out. I don't "feel" like giving up is wrong, but God is the final authority on matters such as this... ya know.

I believe along with the Apostle Paul that I am the worst of all sinners. Every single day of my life in my prayer time, I ask the Lord for forgiveness for my failed marriage and ultimate divorce. At the same time, I can only believe what John says in his first letter, chapter 1 and verse 8 through chapter 2, verse 2, and I quote :
"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make Him out to be a liar and His word has no place in our lives. My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense - Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."

Every aspect of our society, every aspect of our world is in sin. It isn't just the things that make the headlines such as murders, suicides, drug addictions, homelessness, homo-sexual affairs, etc., etc. which are all a part of man's sinful nature. Every facet of life is polluted with sin. There is not one of us who should escape judgement. Divorce is just one part of man's fallen nature. If it weren't for the cross, we'd all be headed straight for hell.

I like to give a final word to the one called "formerly confused". There is no question in the Bible that marriage is ordained by God. However, I often wonder if each individual marriage throughout all the world and throughout all time is ordained by God. I've come to the conclusion, unlike some that I've heard, that only God Himself can answer that one - we can't. I can only deal with what I see before me - broken lives as a result of the sinful nature of man; ones who had no one to guide them; ones who were abused somewhere in their lives'; May the Lord have mercy on our messed us souls.

I believe along with the Apostle Paul that I am the worst of all sinners. Every single day of my life in my prayer time, I ask the Lord for forgiveness for my failed marriage and ultimate divorce. At the same time, I can only believe what John says in his first letter, chapter 1 and verse 8 through chapter 2, verse 2, and I quote :
"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make Him out to be a liar and His word has no place in our lives. My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense - Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."

Every aspect of our society, every aspect of our world is in sin. It isn't just the things that make the headlines such as murders, suicides, drug addictions, homelessness, homo-sexual affairs, etc., etc. which are all a part of man's sinful nature. Every facet of life is polluted with sin. There is not one of us who should escape judgement. Divorce is just one part of man's fallen nature. If it weren't for the cross, we'd all be headed straight for hell.

I like to give a final word to the one called "formerly confused". There is no question in the Bible that marriage is ordained by God. However, I often wonder if each individual marriage throughout all the world and throughout all time is ordained by God. I've come to the conclusion, unlike some that I've heard, that only God Himself can answer that one - we can't. I can only deal with what I see before me - broken lives as a result of the sinful nature of man; ones who had no one to guide them; ones who were abused somewhere in their lives'; May the Lord have mercy on our messed up souls.