I'm also a daughter of dysfunctional parents, etc. So I can relate to your POV.

Here are some things to keep in mind.

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• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">1. Your mother is the woman your father created her to be. I'm not saying she didn't have a choice. I'm not saying she isn't mentally ill. But I have read your father's posts, and he is NOT so caring and compassionate as you paint him to be.
  
  2. Your father is the man your mother created him to be. I'm not saying he didn't have a choice. I'm not saying he isn't mentally ill. But I have read your mother's posts, and while I know he is not entirely the way she paints him to be, I know that she is also not as dark and evil as you paint her to be.
  
  3. Placing yourself as defender of your father and prosecutor of your mother is not a healthy place for you to be in, SNL/F4M Daughter! Neither is a good role model for you, especially when it comes to relationships.
  
  4. Speaking as a daughter of a mentally ill mother - a woman who could not do enough, say enough or abuse enough to ever (in her mind) make up for the abuse her husband heaped upon her from the early days of their marriage, I think I know what I'm talking about when I recommend you reconsider your priorities. Your business ventures will not EVER stand the chance of succeeding while you hold down the 24/7 job of refereeing between your mother and father's conflicts.</font></li>

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There is nothing you can say to educate us about your mother or father. They've both spelled themselves out here, with more information than we ever needed to know. They are BOTH very mentally ill.

The thing you need to understand about mental illness is that there isn't a doggone thing you can do to MAKE either of them see what they are doing to themselves and to other people.

The other thing I want to point out is that it is unreasonable for a 25 year old woman to expect her parents' support while she starts her own business ventures. Sorry, but the very best business owners work 40+ hours a week to pay their bills and do their business ventures on the side, until they build up sufficient credibility with venture capitalists and banks to get funding on their own.

You are looking through some dysfunctional glasses yourself if you do not see that you are using the situation to your advantage at your mother's expense, and then expecting her to sing your praises.

At the same time, I understand what it's like to live with a hypercritical parent - my mother rarely said anything positive about my character publically - I was criticized, and constant source of complaint - I couldn't keep a clean house, I was slovenly lazy, etc. You get the picture - I think my mother was quite a bit like F4M.

But I learned as I grew up (post 30s), that my mother is exactly the woman my father created. That the way she related to him was exactly what he had earned. My mother deserved my compassion, and as a mature adult, that's what I offer her.

Your mother deserves no less from you, my dear.

K,
The fact is we board members only *know* the person that is represented here. Many, mant people represent themselves and events very differently on these boards than what is truth. No one knows really what is going on except the people involved. We don't live with them so therefore I wouldn't dare make any judgements.

Clearly, this daughter feels she has some valid points. And it appears that she does. But whatever, if she does or doesn't, it is not for us to determine.

JMHO

TFS,

I'm certain that this daughter has some valid points. I'm only saying that she has a life to live and needs to allow her parents to be who they are - she cannot change them and will ruin her life and get sucked into the dynamic between them if she remains as referee.

Kayla,

We truly can't know what's going on in that house as we are not there and only have what the people on this board say here.

From my own stand point it does seem that ADV has a lot of valid points and since she's the one who's lived this for all these years who are we to say different.

While I don't like SNL much as a person(I found him very pompus and arrogant) I also never believed he was abusive in the way F4M painted him. The inconsistancies in her story bear this out.

Granted it's a sad thing that her daughter feels that she needs to be the middleman here but if even some of that story she told is true it seems that she's forced into that role anyway. Be nice if that wasn't the case but it seems like this has been going on a long, long time. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I also think it's good that you're caring for both your parents, but agree with both posters here...

I think your mom believes this to be a safe place to post and it's her thoughts and we've been trying to be encouraging to her as well.

We "get" what you're saying and understand your pov. And yea, some things do seem to get lost in the translation with regards to your mom as she has her views and it would seem that some of the reality is a bit different.

I think it's best for this to be a safe place for her to get help and she's in a serious sitch right now.

It is my hope that you help her find an appropriate therapist right now as if she's on some meds they aren't working right and needs a change and also needs a different therapist b/c nothings changed for 3 years. The calling your dad is also unhealthy as well. She's unable to detach.

But your dad also contributed to the fall of the M and I hope you are aware of it.

I'd also encourage you to get some counseling as you're carrying some really weighty issues on your shoulders...the problems of your parents. And I almost think it's best to keep a healthy distance while at the same time encouraging them separately in the right direction towards healing and wellness.

NSSO,

I bring this up, not to take sides, or tell ADV that her perceptions are wrong but that her position between her parents is not healthy for her.

At age 25, I was in the same place, mediating between my parents, having nightmares of my mother and big brother stoning my father when they caught him with booze... So I speak from a place of KNOWING what ADV may be experiencing. And personally KNOWING that it's not going to help ADV in her own life to stay in that dysfunctional place.

At age 26, I got help and began the PAINFUL extracation process. I moved 126 miles away from my parents. I got into a group therapy program for Adult Children. I eventually got a good therapist (age 36) after 4 bad therapists. Now, at age 44, my mother is still a maniac when it comes her her rage at my father. My dad doesn't try to get me to take sides - appears to be patient with her, etc. - all the things ADV describes her father to be doing. But I look at those lost years - the 7 years BEFORE I got help, as well as the nearly 20 years after, recognizing I still have dysfunctional reflexes to some triggers... And know that ADV needs to seriously butt out of her parents' battles, because she's got a big enough one of her own becoming healthy having been a product of this kind of marriage.

And she can deny that she's not healthy now all she wants. but the fact that she's posted three elaborately detailed posts to "set us straight" about her mother, and jumped on her mother's thread.... isn't that a tad bit telling?????

ADV, if you want help to work on yourself, I don't know how much I can help. But I can share what my personal path was and if it helps you shortcut the process and reclaim your life faster, I'd be happy to share.

You don't have to stop loving your dad or your mom, if you live your life for you. That's the main thing you need to know.

Oops, didn&#8217;t see this thread before posting on the other one&#8230;

Yes, daughter must see &#8216;the other side&#8217; of EVERYTHING she sees now&#8230; and learn from her parents&#8217; mistakes&#8230;
Otherwise, she&#8217;ll be the same&#8230; just it&#8217;ll be talking from &#8216;different (point of) view&#8217;&#8230;

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by KaylaAndy:
<strong>Your mother is the woman your father created her to be.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Excellent point!!!

Just to add:
We never ever should allow to anyone to 'create' us but ourselves!
And this means taking full responsibility for our own choices, our own doings, our own &#8211; life!
Who haven&#8217;t learnt yet &#8211; it&#8217;s never too late to do so! ASAP!

Kayla, I know you're not and I didn't mean it that way. It's just to me, I'm readinng years of frustration in those posts. Years of having the truth twisted and living with someone who uses guilt as a weapon. Those things can make you rage once you're old enough to recognize them for what they are. I felt literaly sick when I read about F4M chasing her down to rail about the "whore" and to share the sexual details of her father's A. That is just plain sick and wrong, I would be outraged too.

It not so great that she's airing this out but I more than understand why. If this were my life I too might come here and want to set the record straight maybe in the hopes that my mother would read it and hear from others that this behavior is destructive.

I don't think her father is an innocent here. He seems very controlling and arrogant in his own way. But I don't think he's pushed the kids into this as much as F4M does. I think F4M feels the need to build allies and I do believe she would like her children to present a front against their father. Why else would she tell them about the A in such explicit detail if not to inflame them towards hating their dad?

Personally, I think F4M needs real psychiatric help not a counseler because there are some very deep seated problems being overlooked that really need attention. She is hurting but her methods of coping are only causing alienation when what she needs to do is build friendship and good will with those close to her in order to get over the divorce. She needs those things so very badly and she's willfully destroying them and not thinking of the consequences.

F4M is not a villan, I don't believe that for a second. I believe she's a very injured, confused and angry woman who someone(s) have damaged very deeply early in her life and left her without the ability to cope with life's problems effectively and to her best advantage. She needs these tools desperately.

SNL has his own issues and could use some good therapy but at the very least he seems the more stable(and man if that ain't a statement I don't know what is!)of the two.

Hi diff view!

It seems that KaylaAndy relates closely to your personal situation. I have read many of her posts over a pretty long period of time and think that she could be a very good source of understanding, support, and encouragement in YOUR PERSONAL recovery and healing. I encourage you to seek her out, maybe through private email instead of publicly on these boards if that's better for you.

Many people on these boards care about the wellbeing of all of you, both in your individual lives and in your lives with each other! I hope you will choose to seek out those who have experience that can help you move forward in healthier ways too.

Btw, I am one of the posters who has suggested that Faith4me set boundaries in her home that will create an environment in which recovery and healing is possible--for her and for all of you. From reading Parts 1-3 of your first post, I believe that you will be supportive and respect the boundaries that Faith4me struggles to set for herself and maintain. Please keep in mind that all you can do is respect the boundaries that make recovery and moving on POSSIBLE for Faith4me--the rest is up to her, including deciding which boundaries are necessary.

I wish all of you the very best in recovering, healing, and moving on in healthy ways.

I'd like to say something too--

I think you need to move out of your mom's home and find a place of your own--as do your siblings

you want to be away from it--Your adults---you can pack your things and move out--IT IS YOUR CHOICE TO STAY AND BE SUBJECTED TO IT!!

your father can then go visit you at YOUR house
and your mother will not be subjected to him--and if he chooses to continue to support you--then that is HIS choice--

It's her home you should as her daughter and an adult respect HER and HER WISHES!! Just as you want HER to RESPECT you and yours!

Yes, we encourage her to set boundaries on what is allowed and not allowed in HER home--It is after all just that HER home--and she should have some say in who is welcome and who is not--

If you want to live with your dad--fine pack your things and move in with him--and allow him to support you--

But it's apparent from the many posts from your mom--she is hurting very deeply--and by your continually forcing her to be exposed to the man that hurt her by encouraging him to come over to her house---your hurting her just as much--if not more--they divorced for a reason--so they don't have to be subjected to the hurt any longer--

Ok, first, sorry my posts are long. Just a huge variety of things to say and a lot of you to respond to. In my response here, as a general rule, I am quoting things I disagree with. It is safe to assume everything else anyone has said, I agree with. Let me start with belonging to nowhere's response to my part 3 of 3 thread:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> (Just a little sample – she doesn’t respect your privacy in your room… you don’t respect hers, here…
She finds excuses not to be healed, you find excuses not to be on your own without dad’s money… Btw, if mom had more money, would the situation be somehow better?… And, do you find excuses for your dad's affairs? - Please don't!)

Your mom needs help! You might need it too! Actually, if you both turn to each other and LISTEN with all of your hearts what’s said, adding mom-daughter LOVE and RESPECT – you could get out of this healed and stronger than ever!

Don’t judge! Don’t forget years of her care for you!… It's your time now to give some of it back!!! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I knew the privacy issue about these boards would come up sooner or later. Here goes...marriage builders is a www site. That means world wide web; that means anyone, anywhere with access to the internet can view the information on this site. For all you guys know, the FBI, IRS, etc. are monitoring these boards to track you. You know, the hypothesis are endless. Furthermore, before registering, I checked all restrictions about posting and posting in this board as I did not want to break any rules, the title says:

Divorcing/Divorced
A place for support and sharing ideas.

Nowhere does it say anything about being private, no non-divorcees, no children of divorces, nothing. I couldn't find anything that limited me from being here. If I am wrong point it out and I will leave immediately peacefully. And, actually, I don't intend to be here for much longer anyways. I have gotten most of my points across. Also, not to mention, my mother has referred over the years to this board, to actual posts extensively. Apparently she is not too concerned with privacy.

I do not find excuses to not be on my own as I was on my own, doing quite well. I know I can get a job and move out and live a life like everyone else. However, that is not what I want. I want to be in the major leagues for business...more about this further down.

I am here and if my mom wants to talk rationally, I will listen. I do support her, I support her ideas, her artwork (she asks me many times for suggestions, since I did learn a few things in art school). I support her choice to move to a different house as she wants. The problem is she doesn't focus on these things; she focuses on all the negatives. At this point I am exasperated, I am not judging. I have tried every tatic over the last 10 years. She has lost the second child, my sister. My sister hardly interacts with the family or her. When I move, I am going to have to cease all contact, unless she changes her tune before I leave. I have to have a long break from my mother and her issues. You have to remember, it takes two to have a relationship, I can't carry this on my own, my mom has to take responsibility for her life and her anger.

Money is not the problem here. It is has nothing to do with relationships. Relationships built on money are either business relationships or really messed up relationships. Not once in any of my posts did I defend my dad's affair. An affair is an affair. He should have waited until a divorce was finalized before going out on his own.

Now onto the responses in this post.

Quoting KaylaAndy:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Your mother is the woman your father created her to be. I'm not saying she didn't have a choice. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You have just contradicted yourself. You say she has a choice, yet my father made her who she was. Sorry, it doesn't fly. Example (and I am not pointing fingers at my mom, it is just the simplest example): Does Satan control us and make us do wrongful things? Can we just blame Satan for all the hurt we have caused others and all our sins? Do you say that you are who you are because Satan made you that way?? NO...God has said numerous times in the Bible, we have freedom to choose in our lives. Everyone has free choice to be who they want to be. Your choices are your responsibility and you will suffer the consequences if they are wrong. Unfortunately, my mother has chosen to be who she is. Because of choice, I hope she chooses to better herself.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Your father is the man your mother created him to be. I'm not saying he didn't have a choice. I'm not saying he isn't mentally ill. But I have read your mother's posts, and while I know he is not entirely the way she paints him to be, I know that she is also not as dark and evil as you paint her to be. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Once again, my father is who he chose to be. And, not once did I say my mother was evil. She is a wonderful person, but cloaked in anger. A little hard to see that wonderful person, when all you get is anger. She does these mean things and says these mean things cause she is so angry at the world and at herself. I know these things are almost a way of crying out. However, it is still anger, and she is still hurting all the people who love her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Placing yourself as defender of your father and prosecutor of your mother is not a healthy place for you </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am not doing either. What I was doing, was showing you all the truth and letting you decide what you want to believe. I am hoping that after seeing the truth, you will be able to better guide my mother. I want my mother to heal. She relies on what is said here quite a bit, especially the posts that reinforce her being a victim. To me, this is a last ditch resort before I leave this summer and take a LONG break from my family.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The other thing I want to point out is that it is unreasonable for a 25 year old woman to expect her parents' support while she starts her own business ventures. Sorry, but the very best business owners work 40+ hours a week to pay their bills and do their business ventures on the side, until they build up sufficient credibility with venture capitalists and banks to get funding on their own. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Did I say I expect to be financially supported by my parents?? Please stick with the facts, if you want to quote me. No, I did not. I said quoting here:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This is the time in my life to live meager, work hard on my businesses and be supported by my family so I can succeed. I am not talking about just financial support either; I am talking about emotional support. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Noticed, I clarified, not just financial support. My dad volunteers to fund my businesses for now, just like any other investor out there. He sees the long term benefits from this. As long as he chooses to do this, that is cool. I do not expect it. What I do expect from both my father AND my mother and my siblings is the emotional support. Is that unreasonable? Families should stick together. And, I expect my siblings and parents to expect support from me. So, please reassess your thinking here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You are looking through some dysfunctional glasses yourself if you do not see that you are using the situation to your advantage at your mother's expense, and then expecting her to sing your praises. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am not sure taking advantage of what situation you are talking about. If my mom has to move into a house where only two people can fit, my mom and my brother, I fully do not expect her to make room for me. And yes, I expect her to stop trashing me and I do expect her to emotionally support my endeavors. She has nothing to lose and mountainloads to gain. I mean, what the heck??? She is my mom after all, aren't your parents the two people in the entire world who should actually give a care about you and not trash you when you are pursuing a reasonable goal? What is the problem??

On to Peachy:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> We "get" what you're saying and understand your pov. And yea, some things do seem to get lost in the translation with regards to your mom as she has her views and it would seem that some of the reality is a bit different.

I think it's best for this to be a safe place for her to get help and she's in a serious sitch right now. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I had reiterated myself, just because it seems some people had not read the posts and were continuing to post to her. That was all I was doing with the post I made under my mom's thread. I am glad she has a safe place to talk, and it seems many of you started figuring her out in the long run. My hope, by writing those posts, was solely to get you all on the same page. You have to understand she hangs onto any little word that reinforces her being a victim. If all of you that post to her say the same things, not against her (I repeat not against her) but to help her, there is a sliver of hope that she can be saved. But, if even one of you says just one thing that reinforces her "woe is me", this is a lost cause, because she will focus on just that ONE statement. You have to understand this...it is something I went through personally. I had the same attitude throughout high school, no doubt picked it up from my mom, so I know how it feels; she just has it infinitely worse. I would feel better when someone would say that it wasn't my fault and that the world is against me. That I am a victim. It has taken many years and I have gotten past that...though it occasionally lurks in the background. What helped though, was, I know you may hate this, but my dad repeated over and over and over that my life was my responsibility and what I make of it, is what I get. Overtime, it sunk in. I DO NOT want any of you to quote my posts when talking to my mother and I do not want anyone to attack her. This IS NOT my wish. She can read my posts on her own and hopefully they will make an impression on her. I just want you to take the information I presented to you, so that you know what to make of her words and how you can better respond. Maybe, just maybe, if ALL of you repeat the gist that she needs to move on with her life, to trust in her kids, to explore her many talents, to look forward instead of backwards, to not worry about what my dad does and does not do, to go out and meet people and it is ok to date, she will see the light. At least this is my hope.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But your dad also contributed to the fall of the M and I hope you are aware of it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree. What this was, was a classic case of a marriage that never should have happened. Not because one person was bad and one was good. Both are good people, however never in a million years will they ever understand each other and certainly not to the extent that a marriage requires. I agree and disagree with things my mom believes in this life. I agree and disagree with things my dad believes in this life. All anyone can hope is that this proved a huge learning lesson to all six people involved so we can all make better choices and understand ourselves better in the future.

I agree with anyone who says I and in this they can include my siblings are carrying some emotional burdens, chips on our shoulder, trauma, etc.. Us four kids joke quite a bit about how our family is so dysfunctional. We all recognize to varying degrees what is going on in our heads.

Back to KaylaAndy:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> At age 26, I got help and began the PAINFUL extracation process. I moved 126 miles away from my parents. I got into a group therapy program for Adult Children. I eventually got a good therapist (age 36) after 4 bad therapists. Now, at age 44, my mother is still a maniac when it comes her her rage at my father. My dad doesn't try to get me to take sides - appears to be patient with her, etc. - all the things ADV describes her father to be doing. But I look at those lost years - the 7 years BEFORE I got help, as well as the nearly 20 years after, recognizing I still have dysfunctional reflexes to some triggers... And know that ADV needs to seriously butt out of her parents' battles, because she's got a big enough one of her own becoming healthy having been a product of this kind of marriage.

And she can deny that she's not healthy now all she wants. but the fact that she's posted three elaborately detailed posts to "set us straight" about her mother, and jumped on her mother's thread.... isn't that a tad bit telling????? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Funny thing was, when I moved over 200 miles away for about 8 months or so, I still did not escape this. My mom literally called me numerous times complaining about my dad, more stuff that is none of my business and threatening she was going to call the police on my dad if he didn't do such and such thing. A little hard to extract myself, when I am not left alone, wouldn't you say?? It is not a matter of butting out of anyone's battles, it is a matter of leaving me alone about their business. My dad is fairly good about this as he knows it is not my cross to bear. Though, sometimes he does bring me in, and then apologizes for doing so. But, my mother will not leave me out of this, because she still hopes to turn me against my father. The same thing happens to my siblings.

And Kayla, the reason I am giving all of you this information is not to attack my mother, but to better help her. The quicker you realize that, the better you will be able to help her. She believes in you guys and your posts. Most of you are saying the right things, but some haven't understood yet and I hope that they will.

Not-so-silent has nailed it on the head, please read those posts.

Quoting LovingBoundaries:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Btw, I am one of the posters who has suggested that Faith4me set boundaries in her home that will create an environment in which recovery and healing is possible--for her and for all of you. From reading Parts 1-3 of your first post, I believe that you will be supportive and respect the boundaries that Faith4me struggles to set for herself and maintain. Please keep in mind that all you can do is respect the boundaries that make recovery and moving on POSSIBLE for Faith4me--the rest is up to her, including deciding which boundaries are necessary. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, this one I agree with (I am straying from my general rule from the top:) ) as my original post did pretty much clarify that I will respect the boundaries she sets (referencing the conversation about my dad having to call and ask permission before coming over). If she sets boundaries for my dad I will respect them, as I told her repeatedly over the weekend. I may not necessarily agree with the boundaries; however that fight is between her and my dad.

Quoting ThornedRose:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think you need to move out of your mom's home and find a place of your own--as do your siblings </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">First of all, I believe families should stick together, that is how the human race has been running for thousands and thousands of years. It is only in the last 30 years or so that we have come across the phenomenon of everyone for themselves. Which is why we have this huge need for nursing homes, the family is broken and will not take in the elders. Families split apart and lose contact with each other and it is sad. I suppose my high school brother is supposed to move out as well...come on...give me a break! And you know what, this isn't just my mom's home. Granted her name is on the papers now, but it was all of ours, we built this house from the ground up. I helped pour cement, build walls, stuff insulation, hang drywall, lay floors, install numerous items, the list goes on. My sweat and blood are in this house as well. This house should be sold, as it holds way too many memories for all SIX of us. That would probably be a good step in the healing process for my mom not to mention getting out from under a big financial burden.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> you want to be away from it--Your adults---you can pack your things and move out--IT IS YOUR CHOICE TO STAY AND BE SUBJECTED TO IT!! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is true, but don't you think it is a really sad reason to leave the home because the mother is emotionally attacking the members?? How about, instead of everyone running away from the problem, the problem is worked on? Sounds like a much more "adult" way of doing things, don't you think??

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But it's apparent from the many posts from your mom--she is hurting very deeply--and by your continually forcing her to be exposed to the man that hurt her by encouraging him to come over to her house---your hurting her just as much--if not more--they divorced for a reason--so they don't have to be subjected to the hurt any longer— </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Umm...excuse me, how am I forcing her to be exposed to him. She may make it sound like he comes over everyday, whenever he pleases. First of all, he comes by, once, maybe twice a week, many time less...and it isn’t to see us. I do go over to his house to see him. He for the most part comes by because MY MOM WANTS something from him or because he is conducting some kind of business related thing. And may I remind you, there are three other siblings living here and one of them is still in high school. The youngest can't exactly "move out" and my mom wanted custody of him. Secondly, she calls my dad on her own accord multiple times a week. And, it is not always about topics they have to discuss, she calls about things that she doesn't need to talk to him about.

She is causing her own hurt by doing numerous things. Read all the other posts and you will understand.

My original three posts were just meant to be an intervention. I am not going to stay here and monitor my mom. All I want to see is her to get better and move on with her life. I would like to see her find someone special that she can be happy with. I will hang around and see if any more questions pop up, otherwise, I have had my say. I have presented you and my mom with a lot of information. All of you will do with it as you please; I just hope you will have taken my words to heart and make this for the best.

I have a question.

Do you want our help?

I have opened up a bit of my own history to cue you in that you're not the only one to walk this path between battling parents.

I've walked it in the unhealthy way, to the detriment of my own marriage and my own personal success.

And I've learned how to walk the path with peace and serenity.

Breaking free requires letting go of ALL the bad - and losing contact with some of the good for a while.

Are you here to just set us all straight about your mother? Or do you really want your mother's healing?

(((((A_D_V))))))

For a young woman you have an exceptionally well grounded POV! I was impressed over and over while reading your post at how pragmatic and realistic you are in your approach to this tough situation. Hang in there sweetie. You're doing fine. If you can, talk to a therapist okay? Only because a therapist will help you cememt things even more in your mind and help you deal successfully with your Mom.

Hugs and Blessings.

TFS

Yes Kayla, I need your help, but really not by talking to me. I for the most part know what my issues are and I have been working on them over the years and am continuing to work on them. I do want to disappear from the forums shortly, so my mom can have them to herself. I never intended to be here for more than a few days. I don’t want her fearing her posts are getting mixed up with mine or that I will be posting against her. I want her to continue freely expressing herself.

I need you talking to my mother only about the positives in her life. If you guys can get through to her, even in the slightest way, I am here at home and will do more than my part. Believe me, I can sense when things are turning around and our interactions become much better. For example, sometimes when she comes home from art class she is excited about her work; I listen to her, look at the pieces. I usually tell her she should try to sell them, people would like them. Sometimes we figure out how to improve the piece. This usually makes for a decent day, but then inevitably within days something sends her spiraling down and I close back up. I am done being proactive and leaving myself open to be hurt, she will not listen to her family; but please take heart that I am here for when she does get even the slightest bit better.

ADV,

I'm truly sorry - your mother doesn't want "help". She wants sympathy and understanding beyond what is healthy for her. She has my compassion but I can't help her heal. You haven't really revealed anything new, as you may have read where I confronted her about her expressions of "love" when everything she wrote was "hate" filled. She ignored me entirely.

I wish you the best. I really hope you can break free and understand you don't have to fix your mom's problem to show that you love her, no matter what she says about you, your dad, your siblings...

Because what she says really isn't about all those things is it? She only thinks it's about everyone else. But really, it's about her! <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

a_diff_view,


--First of all, I believe families should stick together, that is how the human race has been running for thousands and thousands of years. It is only in the last 30 years or so that we have come across the phenomenon of everyone for themselves.

TR--And I'm sorry but I completely disagree with this--it has not only been in the past 30 years that families have not stuck together--because it's not about everyone for themselves--I personally have had MANY ancestors over the past 200 years who moved away from their families--
an start out on their own--and they made friends with others and those friends became their families--

When my dad joined the service at 18 he moved away from his family--and his buddies he served with became his support system--and their wives became my mom's support system--

When I left home at 17--my friends became my emotional support system--I didn't expect my parents to be there for me everytime I called and thought I needed their emotional support--I had to learn to trust God to provide that emotional support through others--


--Families split apart and lose contact with each other and it is sad. I suppose my high school brother is supposed to move out as well...come on...give me a break!

TR--If your brother is still in high school he has the right to be there--and should expect the emotional and financial support from your mom--

And you know what, this isn't just my mom's home. Granted her name is on the papers now, but it was all of ours, we built this house from the ground up. I helped pour cement, build walls, stuff insulation, hang drywall, lay floors, install numerous items, the list goes on. My sweat and blood are in this house as well. This house should be sold, as it holds way too many memories for all SIX of us. That would probably be a good step in the healing process for my mom not to mention getting out from under a big financial burden.--

TR--And yes, if your mom's name is on the house it is her house--it may feel like your home--but that is because you've never left--I know when I left my childhood home--when I went back it was never "home" to me again--

---This is true, but don't you think it is a really sad reason to leave the home because the mother is emotionally attacking the members?? How about, instead of everyone running away from the problem, the problem is worked on? Sounds like a much more "adult" way of doing things, don't you think??

TR--Actually NO, I don't--I think you would be better able to work things out as adults if you weren't around it every day--it would give everyone a break from the situation--and give you opportunity to look at things from different perspectives--right now, your still functioning in child mode--and if you were away from your mom she wouldn't be able to verbally attack you--and if she called you and started up you could ask her to call you back when she has something else to discuss and hang up the phone--and she couldn't chase you around the house to try and force you to listen---

YOU would be able to set healthier boundaries between you and your mom--which would actually encourage HER growth and moving forward--

--Umm...excuse me, how am I forcing her to be exposed to him. She may make it sound like he comes over everyday, whenever he pleases. First of all, he comes by, once, maybe twice a week, many time less...and it isn’t to see us. I do go over to his house to see him.

TR--And he shouldn't come over at all to see you--your brother is apparently in high school and can call to ask your dad to meet him somewhere else--
and if he wants business phone lines and wants you kids working for him taking his call's he could rent an office space or set up and office in his house--and you could go over there everyday to work--


-- He for the most part comes by because MY MOM WANTS something from him or because he is conducting some kind of business related thing.

TR--And again--He shouldn't be doing his business in HER HOME!! unless she is in 100% agreement--and she's not--


--And may I remind you, there are three other siblings living here and one of them is still in high school. The youngest can't exactly "move out" and my mom wanted custody of him.

TR--And your point?? the only one who really has any *legal* right to live there is your high school age brother--the rest of you are adults and can move out--

Maybe you should be thanking your mom for ALLOWING
you to continue to live under her roof--so that your not having to rent your own place--contrary to popular belief--She doesn't have to give you a roof over your head past the age of 18--

--Secondly, she calls my dad on her own accord multiple times a week. And, it is not always about topics they have to discuss, she calls about things that she doesn't need to talk to him about.

TR--And I understand this--and I get onto HER about that too!!


--All I want to see is her to get better and move on with her life. I would like to see her find someone special that she can be happy with.

TR--So move out of her home--allow her to suffer whatever consequences happen--to her--so that she can move forward with her life--and begin to heal and focus on her own life--but as long as you adult kids are living there--she really can't--because she won't be able to figure out how to survive on her own--she will be forced to look at what she needs to do--to move forward--and right now--she isn't--because she's being bombarded with the past---

TR--And I'm sorry but I completely disagree with this--it has not only been in the past 30 years that families have not stuck together--because it's not about everyone for themselves--I personally have had MANY ancestors over the past 200 years who moved away from their families--
an start out on their own--and they made friends with others and those friends became their families--

sufdb...tr, you have missed the point, kinship bonds, family groups, and tribal boundaries are what define being human....that hasn't changed. What has changed is the speed of travel, wider economic opportunity, increased choices for females, and much more extensive communication options. Obviously "moving" away is part of our psychology, but it is not the predominant factor. Staying or leaveing involves a complex set of considerations, external and internal, before a choice is reached....HOWEVER, all other things being equal, people prefer to stick together along kinship lines, you don't see that in your everyday travels?

tr...When my dad joined the service at 18 he moved away from his family--and his buddies he served with became his support system--and their wives became my mom's support system--

sufdb...So? Yeah, sure, whatever you do, humans are going to from bonds, but that wasn't what this was about....this is about adv choosing to remain within her family at this time as she pursues her goals...why are you implying that is a bad? Unhealthy? choice? Certainly she could choose to "leave" but that is the whole point, we have choices, and remaining within your kinship unit is not a dysfunctional choice per se....anymore than leaveing is a functional choice per se (the prodigal son comes to mind)....lots of people leave their family support system, and fare very very badly.. lots don't leave, and do poorly as well.

tr...When I left home at 17--my friends became my emotional support system--I didn't expect my parents to be there for me everytime I called and thought I needed their emotional support--I had to learn to trust God to provide that emotional support through others--

sufdb...I didn't see that being said at all. And friends often make terrible support systems, just like parents do sometimes...but it is more likely parents, siblings, extended family have your best interests at heart than random friendships (which is what most so-called freindships are)...friends encourage all sorts of unhealthy choices and behaviors too ya know. Ultimately one must trust themself and God, but I can't understand why you are advocateing against parents playing a significant mentoring/supportive role in an adult childs life...that makes no sense at all.

tr--If your brother is still in high school he has the right to be there--and should expect the emotional and financial support from your mom--

sufdb...Why? Human beings have left home over the years at all sorts of ages, why do draw the line at high school, but a day after graduation one must be on their own (to make a point)...what is the difference? Or is it 1 month, 6 months, a year...2 years, 10 years....what is the magical formula?

TR--And yes, if your mom's name is on the house it is her house--it may feel like your home--but that is because you've never left--I know when I left my childhood home--when I went back it was never "home" to me again--

sufdb...Well, I dunno how one goes about defining house and home, guess in part it is the eye of the beholder, and probably quite situational as well....but the point she was making is that ethically, or morally, or simply just fairplay...making this just about money is wrong...other considerations do apply regardless of who happens to have gotten their name on a title. Personally I have always detested the notion that just cause someone has the money they automatically get to make the rules...how about you tr?

tr---TR--Actually NO, I don't--I think you would be better able to work things out as adults if you weren't around it every day--it would give everyone a break from the situation--and give you opportunity to look at things from different perspectives--

sufdb...Yes and no. Distance does reduce tension simple for logicistical reasons if nothing else...but depending on why the distance has to be can have long reaching consequences. If someone drives someone else away, that may close all the doors permanently, or at least seriously impair future efforts to reconcille cause it is an unfair resolution.....if people seperate it should me a mutual decision that meets both their needs, and that does not sound like what she is describing does it.

tr...right now, your still functioning in child mode--and if you were away from your mom she wouldn't be able to verbally attack you--and if she called you and started up you could ask her to call you back when she has something else to discuss and hang up the phone--and she couldn't chase you around the house to try and force you to listen---

sufdb....Child mode? You mean trying to find a healthy resolution to dysfunctional behavioir? Seems to me running away would be more childlike...hanging in there is tough, and adult. Tr, you may be trying to help, but sounds more like you are projecting your own stuff on to someone elses life.

tr...YOU would be able to set healthier boundaries between you and your mom--which would actually encourage HER growth and moving forward--

sufdb...It is no ones responsibility but each of us, to grow, behave properly, and be responsible... Her mother needs to behave herself in the presence of family members, not behave herself cause they are gone, and can hang up or avoid her....that doesn't fix the underlying problem, it just ignores it...and she needs to quit being a victim and trying to manipulate everything and everyone to support that mindset. That is best accomplished by "doing it" not running everyone off so she can live in denial...there is no accountability then.

TR--And he shouldn't come over at all to see you--your brother is apparently in high school and can call to ask your dad to meet him somewhere else--
and if he wants business phone lines and wants you kids working for him taking his call's he could rent an office space or set up and office in his house--and you could go over there everyday to work--

sufdb...This is part of the problem in general for divorce... if the spouse who ends up with the domicile of the mutual children uses that position to try and control how the children and non-custodial spouse interact. If they try to exert unreasonable control it ends up being a great source of conflict, and relects poorly on them as a self-serving behavior. If you keep the kids, then you must accept the home is not totally yours, the other family members have rights too, they are not your property. Reasonable people should be able to handle the necessary compromises without being dictatorial. It seems pretty strange that adult children can have anyone they want over...except the other parent, what are they...chopped liver? Lepers? Clearly this is situational, depends on behaving properly, the size of the home, time of day, whether it conflicts with something in particular....

TR--And your point?? the only one who really has any *legal* right to live there is your high school age brother--the rest of you are adults and can move out--

sufdb...This post suggests family isn't of much importance to you tr, I am surprised. Why does everyone keep trying to kick her kids out of the house anyways? They are all well-behaved, productive, nice people, this is their home....so now they get booted out? Maybe people should spend more time on f4m, and holding her accountable instead of feeding/validateing her inappropritate anger/behavior.

tr...Maybe you should be thanking your mom for ALLOWING you to continue to live under her roof--so that your not having to rent your own place--contrary to popular belief--She doesn't have to give you a roof over your head past the age of 18--

sufdb...I didn't see her say she was owed anything, I see her asking why her mom won't behave in a manner conducive to good relationships, and I saw her mention a number of very specific concerns....I also saw nothing in her posts indicateing she was not greatful for her mom, and a place to live...but ya know tr, there is more to life and relationships than just giving someone a roof.

TR--So move out of her home--allow her to suffer whatever consequences happen--to her--so that she can move forward with her life--and begin to heal and focus on her own life--but as long as you adult kids are living there--she really can't--because she won't be able to figure out how to survive on her own--she will be forced to look at what she needs to do--to move forward--and right now--she isn't--because she's being bombarded with the past---

sufdb...I imagine they will all move on, there is little reason not too, but unless one is independently wealthy, just pciking up and going is not always a viable option. In the meantime f4m has a terrific opportunity to restore repair her relationships with her kids, one would hope she doesn't throw that away. As for being bombarded with the past, what does that mean...she has it no harder than anyone else, and a whole bunch easier than most. She needs to count her blessings (of which she has many) a little more, own her own substantial role in where she is, and quit trying to convince everyone she comes across she is just some poor mistreated woman....her life is exactly what she made it near as I can see, and it will be as good or bad as she continues to make it....it's my guess anger, hostility, victimhood, and denial won't serve her well.

thornedrose

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> When my dad joined the service at 18 he moved away from his family--and his buddies he served with became his support system--and their wives became my mom's support system— </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The military can hardly be compared with moving out on one’s own and I certainly was not including the military in my statement about young people moving out. One thing, during your father’s time and my father’s time that was the fate of many young men even against their will. The military fully supports and pays these young men, and many times fully finances their entire college education. They are forced to live a structured life under someone else’s rules and to become responsible, in short they continue to receive guidance and grow up under adult guidance. And, it turns out to be the greatest thing some of these men need. Because, they are not in any way prepared to take on life by themselves. Your father was able to build up a support system with his friends, but not on his own; only with the military fully supporting him. Ok, so the military is not a valid argument.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> When I left home at 17--my friends became my emotional support system--I didn't expect my parents to be there for me everytime I called and thought I needed their emotional support--I had to learn to trust God to provide that emotional support through others— </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This was your choice or maybe not your choice. However, just because you did it doesn’t mean it is the right thing to do, or the right thing for everyone to do! And please don’t tell me your friends helped you to grow up and teach you to make good decisions. One, other young adults are usually the worst teaching examples. Secondly, you are on these boards, obviously something went awry. I don’t know whether or not you were the betrayed or the wayward, but I do know you CHOSE to marry the person you did as did anyone else who is married on these boards.

Furthermore, you referred back 200 years. The life expectancy 200 years ago was many times just 20 to 30 years. In 1900 life expectancy in the United States was only 47 years. I would have either been dead or an old hag at best 200 years ago. Young adults stayed in the home, joined the military or were married off. And, no these people did not just take off by themselves. There were a few pioneering spirits. But, for the most part, they were married into new families, or their old families went with them. Do you truly think the west was settled by young people walking out there by themselves?? Nope, history would definitely tell us different. It was not uncommon to see three generations living under the same roof! Now a days there are some people who leave, but because they choose to, not because they have to. I am of the thinking that families should stick together; and that as history has proven, is not an alien view. This can be argued till the cows come home, but I will not agree with you on this one as it seems you have a strong grudge against family life.

Ok, once and for all, I will clearly explain to you the deal with the house. None, of you were here to read the divorce decree or hear the verbal agreements my parents made. The deal was; the kids go with the house. This was a given; and agreed full heartedly by both parents. All four kids would stay in the house until the child moved out permanently, the house was sold, or the child became a disruption. No child here is a disruption. We are all pursuing responsible paths, no one is on drugs and no one is violent. This actually is just a temporary solution anyways, as neither parent was going to keep the house for long. So no, we weren’t expecting to live here for eternity. My mother had two choices when the divorce was occurring. She could have gotten her own place which would have been much smaller and manageable with hardly any headache. Her taxes would have been smaller and she could live by herself and work on starting her life WITHOUT any distraction. In that case my father would be in the house, and have all the headache of this house, be under the financial strain and fully be taking care of us kids if needed. This is actually what he wanted, because he had a feeling this house would be too much for her and the kids would be too much for her to live with under the circumstances. However, my mom wanted the house, solely because she wanted to live with the kids. She put her foot down hard on this one. THIS WAS HER CHOICE, she CHOSE (LET ME REPEAT, SHE CHOSE) to live with the kids. And, the only times she ever complains about us living here is when she fights with our dad, or we refuse to be her allies against our dad. Otherwise, she is very happy to have us here. I mean, heck, I am a live in gourmet cook and every time I make a meal she says how happy she is that I live here! So no, I do not have to ask my mom’s permission to be here as she chose this path. I was guaranteed a spot in this house by BOTH parents (that means MOM and DAD). I did not expect the spot, but I was guaranteed it. My mother can deny this all she wants if she does so, but all four of us know what she agreed to. CASE CLOSED on the house. I have presented you with the FACTS here and you can not argue with the facts.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> TR--So move out of her home--allow her to suffer whatever consequences happen--to her--so that she can move forward with her life--and begin to heal and focus on her own life--but as long as you adult kids are living there--she really can't--because she won't be able to figure out how to survive on her own--she will be forced to look at what she needs to do--to move forward--and right now--she isn't--because she's being bombarded with the past--- </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, we have gotten past the point of it being her home solely. I have explained why I have the right to be here. Allowing her to suffer the consequences is the ending outcome, if she doesn’t change. I realize this and will make this choice this summer as I can’t try to fix her for the rest of my life. I did want to give a good stab at it though and not just run away from my problems. Us adult kids are causing nothing. She is causing it herself and has caused it to herself long before I became an adult. Once you understand that she is full of anger and has been full of anger for a long time, long before the divorce, you will be able to better help her. She is hurting herself, hurting her loved ones and hurting her friends being the way she is. And she chooses to be this way and is not healing because she chooses too. Not because anything or anyone is stopping her. Telling her, her adult kids are the problem does not help her in any way at all.

I have said numerous times, this was my last ditch effort. So please don’t reprimand me for either not trying or telling me to just drop my mom. I have tried many things and I thought this couldn’t hurt and it may, just may help if all the people who talk to her fully understand what she needs to hear to heal. She does not need to hear about how bad her ex was or how she suffered or how bad this and that was. She focuses on that. READ ME LOUD AND CLEAR. Anytime, you say something along those lines, she won’t hear another word you say because she got her confirmation of being a victim. It is time for her to move on from all this and you all seem to agree with that. All I have done is give you a few more tools and understanding to help her with. And, I don’t see many people agreeing with you saying that us kids are the ones stopping her from healing. If anything, we are the support system she needs, we know the truth and can be firm with her unlike her friends who only know her side of the story. They will never be firm with her, because they only have her words to go on. Finally, that is a sad sad day on earth when the children are reminders of the past, instead of bringing hope of the future.

diff view,

You said:
"If anything, we are the support system she needs, we know the truth and can be firm with her unlike her friends who only know her side of the story. They will never be firm with her, because they only have her words to go on."

If you look up previous posts, you will find that is not true. Additionally, one can be firm and compassionate at the same time. If you looked up previous posts, you would see that it WAS her FRIENDS, the people who REALLY DID CARE about her, who were firm with her--and still are.

The people who really care about her will be here when she comes back from her break. I'm glad you will be there, respecting the boundaries that she intended to set before she went on break from MB. If she does indeed set the boundaries that will relieve her from constant triggers, I believe she will finally have a situation where, for the first time, she can recover and heal. I hope and pray for all of you that she sets those boundaries and enforces them if it becomes necessary to do so.

I wish all of you the best. Take care.