Hi,

Never a dull moment. Hubby moved out a month and a half ago. At that time, our goal was to give us both some breathing room as we work on bringing our marriage back together. Since then, however, it's been all about HIM. His needs, his wants, his boundaries, etc. He has yet to take my feelings or needs into consideration. Well, I grew tired of that. I'm feeling very used and underappreciated. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Per our marital coach, we were to read all we could on POJA and start to incorporate it. To make a long story short, DH made another decision today that he did a couple of weeks ago. This decision (regarding his job) caused major problems with us, as it took away a significant amount of our alone time....... the time we were supposed to be working on our marriage. Our counselor advised us to spend AT LEAST 15 hours of uninterrupted time together this week. Well.... we've spent ZERO time alone together!!!!

Anyway, today's announcement of HIS decision hit me like a ton of bricks. I'm tired of being used. I'm tired of being his "as needed" wife. I'm there when he wants me..... but he thinks nothing of engaging in things that do nothing more than escalate his independent behavior. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

After today's announcement (via email... he KNEW I would not be happy with it), I called and left him a voicemail message saying that I've had all I can take. I need to think about ME for a change.... as he certainly isn't. I also told him that I can no longer work on this marriage by myself. I told him that I do not want to hear from him until he is serious about working on this relationship. As I expected, he called me about 12-15 times today. I did not answer. Had no interest in his excuses. He did leave a few messages. Believe it or not..... he's trying to force the blame here on ME. He thinks I have no right to be mad, that he sacrificed the majority of our alone time together. I don't even know what to say to that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Can anybody help me? I'm on the verge of losing anything I once felt for this man. His selfish, independent behavior are killing us. I know he will call again tomorrow, trying to act like nothing ever happened. I can't continue to NOT answer my phone forever. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

What should I do? Thanks for your help.

Sarah

Sarah,

You need to take a step forward and stick to your original plan which was to take a breather from your husband.

You are justified in your anger and confusion (talk about circular logic with the job thing..) so now is not the time to make life-altering decisions.

Take a few days, weeks, whatever, to calm down until you feel ready to approach him.

Take good care,
Francis

Thanks for your reply OnOurOwn,

My husband just doesn't get it. Not even a clue..... he is actually saying that he's sorry he told me about his work situation as early as he did. He thinks he should have waited until Saturday night. Ugh...... he doesn't get that it's not WHEN he's telling me anything, it's WHAT he's telling me.

It's been two days. I don't feel any different. I'm at the end of my rope. I'm so tired of dealing with all this. I'm really ready to throw in the towel. Especially since it is so obvious that hubby does not have the slightest clue what's bothering me. It certainly is NOT from lack of me telling him. It's that he does not HEAR me. I have no control over that. And quite frankly, I'm tired of trying.

I really wanted this marriage to work. Right now, I'm feeling like it's doomed. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> It's gonna take a miracle to turn things around.

Sarah

Sarah,
Don't Underustimate miracles, they can hit you when you least expect them.

You do realy need to bring this up with MC and since I assume you POJA'ed about MC, you should put 100% into it and not change your path without consulting MC.

If MC advises plan B then do it. Sounds like you have a good one and they know the best way to get through these tough situations but you must also let them know your thoughts and intentions.

WIWH

Sarah, I think you’re right. I think Plan B may be a very good idea. Just read through those LBs you delivered up to him over the phone! Rather disrespectful even if they are true.

Why can’t you just not answer your phone? I forget if you have children. If you do, you can get an intermediary.

So what do you need to have happen before you’re willing to work on the marriage some more? Be specific.

You need to go to Plan B immediately - or risk losing your love for your H. Plan B is designed to protect you in any circumstances and with any outcome. It will preserve whatever love you still have for your H - for awhile at least.

Do not answer the phone. I wasn't clear as to whether or not the email you sent your husband was a Plan B letter...if it was, proceed as planned. If it wasn't, craft a Plan B letter, have someone proof it (or check it against the sample Plan B letter in SAA). If he comes to the door, do not answer it. If he approaches you in public, calmly walk away from him. Do not engage!

Your Plan B letter should include a way for him to contact you when and if he feels he can commit to doing those things which you require - such as the 15 hours a week of alone time. Until he meets every single one of your guidelines in your Plan B letter to your satisfaction - Do not engage.

Even if he is sick, or "wants to talk", or whatever lame excuse to get you to break your Plan B and pay attention to him - do not engage. Have an intermediary handle any emergency (or child related) issues. It is best if you do not use a family member - they always take sides, and you don't need the added drama.

Plan B is really hard in the beginning. It will feel like youre fighting a huge battle all by yourself. You will feel lonely. Don't give in to it. Come here and post. Take a hot shower and cry your eyes out. Pray. Ask for strength and wisdom. Whatever you do...don't engage.

LULU is right.

Thank you for your responses! I really do appreciate all of them.

Hmmmmmmmm.... I didn't mean to LB in the voicemail message I left for hubby telling him I was done. I really didn't. Is it possible to express those feelings without LB'ing? That's what I meant to do. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

No, I didn't draft a letter. The voicemail pretty much covered it. The only problem is that he is completely ignoring what I said. He keeps calling me continuously, leaving messages "Please call me. I love you." It's like he didn't even listen to my message!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Last night I went to my IC. Ofcourse I shared the situation with him. He had some very good advice for me. Things that I should tell hubby, such as I will not speak to him until he can give me his word that he will not be defensive, or make excuses or be closed minded. And I have to have him agree to let me talk without interrupting me. If he does any of those things... I am to say "that sounds like an excuse to me, or that sounds defensive to me. Obviously this is not a good time to talk. Please call me back when you are able to give me things I asked for from you before I continue this conversation". THEN I NEED TO HANG UP!!! The advice I was given was great. I'm just not "that fast" when presented with the situation real time. THAT will be my hardest part. Following through........ but I will do it. I have to.

Any other ideas or input on what I should or shouldn't do?

Thanks so much,
Sarah

When you decide you should talk to your H, remember to breathe deeply and smoothly. This isn't a game show - having a quick draw response isn't going to win you any points. If you keep your breathing deep and even paced, it will lower your voice (none of that hysterical high pitched squeeky voice stuff - makes you sound un-serious)and give you time to really listen to your inner voice. How does what he said make you feel? What is the most honest, but kind response?

If you get overwhelmed, end the conversation. If he asks you a question that you don't know the answer to...its okay to have the conversation another day. Ask for time to think about it and get back to him when you know the answer. No where is it written that you have to know all the answers in rapid fire succession when dealing with a difficult situation.

The good news is that he is responding and that he still says he loves you. The bad news is that he isn't really listening to you and responding to your needs in an appropriate manner.

I disagree with your IC that you should tell him the things with which you are unhappy with and what will make you engage him. Has telling him what is bothering you worked in the past? Has telling him how he can fix it worked in the past? It obviously hasn't. Follow through with a plan B letter. He can read the letter over and over again until he gets it. Do not engage him. Tell him what you require in the letter and do not give in to his wheedling, his phone calls, his begging. If you give in prematurely even once, he will realize, consciously or not, that you are weak and that you aren't serious about taking care of yourself and your needs. You may never get a second chance to make Plan B work for you.

Use this time away from him to think about what you really need. There is a tendency to analyze your relationship with your spouse in terms of extremes. You will start to think of every comment or action as a mean spirited attempt at manipulation or selfish behavior. Try to get past that as quickly as you can and focus on you. Don't focus on him, or what he is doing, or what he is planning or thinking or saying. What do you think? What do you need? What would make you happy?

Do't pick up the phone and don't answer the door. Write the Plan B letter. There is lots of help for writing a good PB letter in the Plan A/Plan B forum. Get a copy of Surviving an Affair and use that as your model. Do it today.

LULU--

Thank you for the excellent advice. I want very much to follow it. However, you're gonna think I'm a real idiot.... I really do know this site and it's principles like the back of my hand, but I cannot find help in creating a Plan B letter that does not encompass infidelity. We had NO infidelity. It was a summation of a whole bunch of other things that got us to this point.

PLEASE point me in the direction of creating a Plan B letter NOT for infidelity. The point of a Plan B in the case of infidelity is not to see the WS until they have stopped all contact with the other person. If only I knew what my "point" should be, I could go for it. Actually, I do very well writing letters. I find it easier to express myself in writing than verbally. I just need a shove in the right direction as to how to begin.

Again, the point of my wanting no contact is that hubby SAYS he wants our marriage to work. Yet his actions speak the opposite. It's killing me to be strung along like this. I have done very tangible things since our separation to work on our marriage. (began IC for my anger issues, pursued our MC and got her on board, sent hubby the MB website, when I saw he "had not time" to view it, I even printed out the concepts, questionnaires, etc. so he could read them at his leisure ) I can't take his lack of "trying" anymore. Yet everytime I try to discuss it with him, I'm hit with excuses, close-mindedness, and defensiveness. Our talks get us nowhere. I can talk until I'm blue in the face, and he doesn't hear me. And he continues with his independent behavior, knowing full well how much that hurts me -- especially now, when we are trying to reconnect.

Thanks for listening......

Sarah

OK Friends,

I'm getting antsy here. And it happens to be my only alone time this week (no kids). I drafted a Plan B letter.

Comments? Suggestions? Did I leave anything important out?

Thanks for any feedback.


My Dear (hubby),

It is with great sadness that I write you this letter. However, I feel that we are at a crossroads and I have no choice but to say these words.

I am truly sorry that I created an environment at home, which was less than pleasing to you. I never wanted things to get this way. And I am certainly more than willing to take my fair share of the blame. Unfortunately, I cannot undo all the wrongs. All I can do, is to do better in the future. That is my plan. When I met you, I fell so hard in love with you. Ahhhh... I can still remember how I used to actually tingle when you were even near me. Never, ever in my wildest dreams did I expect our love to turn into this.

Finding the positives, I am truly grateful that your moving out made me take a long hard look at ME. I sought my individual counseling. I cannot begin to tell you how much that has already helped me. I am open, I really am. I'm being very honest with myself about a lot of things. Believe me, not all of them are very pretty. I told you many times that I never wanted to be an angry person. You never seemed to believe me. But I did mean it. I just didn't realize that all I needed was to learn a way to express it other than yelling. It's like a weight has been lifted off of me. I'm so proud of myself for handling disagreements in a totally different fashion that I used to. My only regret is that I didn't do this years ago. It would have saved me and my loved ones a lot of unnecessary pain. And for that I apologize to you. I am truly sorry for the pain I have caused you.

(Hubby) I do still love you. However, before we can talk, meet or anything else, I need some things from you. If you feel you can give me those things, great. If you don't feel you can give me those things, please stop contacting me. I will not even speak to you until you can give me what I need. As far as I'm concerned, this marriage is doomed until we take steps in the right direction TOGETHER. In order for us to begin taking those steps, we need to talk to each other and tell each other how we REALLY feel. However, we cannot even begin talking until you can promise me that you will not be defensive, close-minded, interrupt me, or offer excuses for your behavior. In return, ofcourse, I will do the same thing for you.

I think the first thing we need to agree upon is that this separation is not working. It's only driving us further and further apart. We can't move forward in fixing things until you commit to this marriage. That means first and foremost, following (MC's) instructions and guidance. I've done all my homework and then some. Have you? I would be interested in your feelings about POJA -- and how we can incorporate that into our blended family. We are also supposed to discuss the other MB concepts to see how we can incorporate them into our lives. I would look forward to doing that with you. (MC) has also suggested that we spend at LEAST 15 hours a week together alone. We both know that has not even come close to happening. My IC said something insightful to me.... I'll pass it on. He said "we give our time to the things we love". Very simple words... yet very profound if you really think about them.

I need to emphasize to you that I am serious about you not contacting me in any way until you are ready to make a committment to actively work on our marriage. The way things have been unfolding since you left, has done nothing more for me than deplete almost all of the little bit that is left in my love bank for you. I hope you can understand that I am doing this in an attempt to hang on to what is left in that love bank.

I need for you to respect my wishes on this. I hope that you will take a long hard look at yourself, within your heart. I hope that it tells you that the love you have for me is worth the effort it's going to take to get us back together.

With love,

OK, some help but you are going to have to learn, and think about how to improve this letter <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Learning points about clarity for accurate comprehension: never use the words : it, thing, or the phrase, i feel that ______

ok, so lets go:

My Dear (hubby),

I am writing to you with great sadness. I feel ____ (one word of which you feel).

I am truly sorry that the home environment is less than pleasing to you. I ___________ to improve in the future. Never, ever in my wildest dreams did I expect my (not our, you can only speak for yourself) love to turn into this (this what??). this is open for interpretation as its a demonstrative adjective, looking for something to describe.

I am truly grateful that the separation has made me take a long hard look at ME. I sought individual counseling. This counseling has been very productive towards improving myself. I am open and I'm being very honest with myself about a lot of things.(what things? behaviors? attitudes? clothes?) I have told you many times that I never wanted to be an angry person. AND I do mean it. I just didn't realize that all I needed was to learn a way to express it(? i assume anger? make sure you say what the it is referring to for no misunderstandings) other than yelling. I'm so proud of myself for handling disagreements in a totally different fashion than I used to. My only regret is that I didn't do this (what?) years ago. It (what it?) would have saved me and my loved ones a lot of unnecessary pain. And for that I apologize to you. I am truly sorry for the pain I have caused you.

(Hubby) I am trying to maintain my love you. However, I cannot maintain my love without serious discussions that display respect and courtesy of another's opinion, and respect for our differences. I cannot maintain my love without openness and honesty about my feelings and your thoughts or feelings. I feel disrespected when interupted and I can not and will not continue discussions when I am not allowed to finish my thoughs or feelings. I will give you a sign that i am finished so that you may then respond. But until then, there will be no discussions until these groundrules are agreed upon.

In order for me to begin to discuss our marraige together, i require from you a commitment to the
Marriage Counselor's instructions and guidance. Without that committment and subsequent action supporting that commitment, I will not enter into discussions unless we are in a MC session. I will not discuss our current situation over the phone with you. Please take your time and think about your commitment to the marriage and the effort that the MC requires in order for us to work towards a better marriage.

with love

sarah


ugh. . . the remainder is wordy and unclear, so lets rework it, see above.

However, before we can talk, meet or anything else, I need some things (shirts? pants, clothes, stereo? money) WHAT THINGS???) from you. If you feel you can give me those things, great. If you don't feel you can give me those things, please stop contacting me. I will not even speak to you until you can give me what I need. As far as I'm concerned, this marriage is doomed until we take steps in the right direction TOGETHER. In order for us to begin taking those steps, we need to talk to each other and tell each other how we REALLY feel. However, we cannot even begin talking until you can promise me that you will not be defensive, close-minded, interrupt me, or offer excuses for your behavior. In return, ofcourse, I will do the same thing for you.

ugh, more controlling type. . . not good. . .
I think the first thing we need to agree upon is that this separation is not working. It's only driving us further and further apart. We can't move forward in fixing things until you commit to this marriage. That means first and foremost, following (MC's) instructions and guidance. I've done all my homework and then some. Have you? I would be interested in your feelings about POJA -- and how we can incorporate that into our blended family. We are also supposed to discuss the other MB concepts to see how we can incorporate them into our lives. I would look forward to doing that with you. (MC) has also suggested that we spend at LEAST 15 hours a week together alone. We both know that has not even come close to happening. My IC said something insightful to me.... I'll pass it on. He said "we give our time to the things we love". Very simple words... yet very profound if you really think about them.

I need to emphasize to you that I am serious about you not contacting me in any way until you are ready to make a committment to actively work on our marriage. The way things have been unfolding since you left, has done nothing more for me than deplete almost all of the little bit that is left in my love bank for you. I hope you can understand that I am doing this in an attempt to hang on to what is left in that love bank.

I need for you to respect my wishes on this. I hope that you will take a long hard look at yourself, within your heart. I hope that it tells you that the love you have for me is worth the effort it's going to take to get us back together.

With love,

WIFTT --

THANK YOU for giving me so much of your time. I really, really appreciate your input and ideas.

I will take everything you said into serious consideration.

One more piece of direction..... having been down the road with my hubby so many times, I can pretty much foresee his response. He WILL agree to everything I've asked of him so that I will talk to him again. The problem is that his words say one thing, his actions quite another. What do you suggest I do when we talk and he immediately regresses to interruptions, close-mindedness, excuses, etc? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I do not want to LB. However, I want to stop him immediately. HOW do I get him back on the right track?? Any advice? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

You are wonderful and forever in my debt for your help!

Sarah

bump

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do not want to LB. However, I want to stop him immediately. HOW do I get him back on the right track?? Any advice? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">yes, you are off base, way off base. . .

owrry about yourself, and your actions and reactions. . . forget what he will do or won't do. . . observe him, but do not expect from him. .

state your case and your boundaries. . if there is no boundary respecting, . . then you end/walk/leave the situation. . .

you are focused on changing him. . . that will not work. . . that does not get you any respect. . . walking away when he doesn't respect you, will get alot more respect. . .

so visualize being wherever, write down his rejoinders that will irritate and disrecpect you. . and memorize them . .. what you need to practice is detachment, and pattern recognition. . . everyone displays patterns. . . you have to learn what they are and then to reaction the way you want to in reaction to the expected patterns. . .

now, what arehis patterns in dealing with you?

write them down here.

wiftty

Hi Wiffty --

His patterns for dealing with me are to make excuses for his behavior, get defensive with me and to counteract anything I say with a "well YOU did this.........."

Ok -- I'm listening.......... NOW what???

Sarah

Sarah,

I realy have nothing to offer but my concern. Any advice I would have would just be quoting WIFTTY.

Worry about you and take care of you and always know that there are lots of us here listening

WIWH

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by WishI WereHome:
<strong> Sarah,

I realy have nothing to offer but my concern. Any advice I would have would just be quoting WIFTTY.

Worry about you and take care of you and always know that there are lots of us here listening

WIWH </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WishIWereHome -- Thank you for your post. You're a sweetheart. ((((((((((WishIWereHome))))))))))

Sarah

but he can't say anything if you just leave, right? if you are blaming him, or treating him like a child, telling him to do this or that, or act this way or that way, . . . then you are in a pissing contest. ..

as i said. . .

step 1) please don't xyz . . . if you continue, i will leave.

step 2) if xyz happens again, leave. . . don't say anything, just leave. . .

step 3) next occurance, start at step 1 again. . .

the pattern i ask about is the pattern of behavior that you initially respond to. . .

step A1, learn to listen and ask questions of your H and don't tell him anything unless he asks you a question. . . just ask questions. . .

geez, its not that hard. . . UNLESS you are trying to make him behave in a certain way. . . then you are pushing on a string.. . just ask questions. . . .

wiftty