Fly Girl

I can give you another male perspective and I hope you find that it shows they are not all the same.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He hasn't shared anything to this day about his inner feelings. He asks me to talk, and then says nothing, making me do all the talking about how I feel. Our counseling sessions are me bawling and my heart breaking and him saying nothing as always. He has sidestepped the A, if it bothers him still he shows no signs of it. He never really showed much pain over it in the first place. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">These are things that are very difficult for a lot of men to do. Perhaps it is something that was missing from your M that he was unable to meet.

Although he, i'm sure, does have inner feelings and has pain that he isn't showing, he needs to be a man about it and not a sissy.

It sounds to me like he is trying to show you how he feels in the best way he can and I think if you listen to everlong and be a little receptive of his efforts, he may begin to open up more and start to show his feelings and emotions.

For a long time, I couldn't express my feelings to my W unless we were laying in bed in the dark. It made it easier for me to be open when she couldn't see me.

The same goes for writing or e-mail. He is probably e-mailing you to try to open up a little and by doing it this way, he has the safety of not looking like a sissy to you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Monday morning e-mail me and ask me if there is something on my mind I would like him to help with </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I realize that it is not something that you want right now , but have you tried asking him this. Not through e-mail, but one of those days that he is tolerating you or just smiling at you when you look at him try, in a nice way, to ask if he has something on his mind.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> (I've found that males don't really give objective advice very well in most cases - they all think I should dump him and find someone who will treat me better, that he is a man born to be single) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sounds like you are talking to more of those men who are afraid to be a sissy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

WIWH

Flygirl,

I know exactly what you mean by fearing that he will have false hope if you respond to him. As I wrote before, a lot of the ground I covered is similar to yours so I understand your feelings.

FG 13:

I have lurked about your thread. I have looked at Chris and Javas replies. I do not believe that they were trying to be unkind. Just direct. Their thoughts are worth looking at...because they are trying to get you pointed down a particular path.

That path is to try and come out of the severe withdrawl yoou seem to be in...and it is completely understandable.

I think your view of his attempts to find a way back into your love looks shallow...and the lying as LBing does not help...but let me assure you as someone who divorced his WW (she is an active alcoholic), the other side of the equation...divorce.. is much more challenging.

I think you may need to continue counseling alone to re-position your attitude towards him. BUt, he must genuinely want to change his actions towards you.

Five weeks are nothing in the real scheme of things...and yes I understand you are resentful...and yes you are angry...why wasn't he this way before my affair.

You cannot change the past. Only time will heal your wounds of feeling unloved. Try to enjoy and be greatful for what little you believe you have at this time.

You can challenge your adversity and turn it into opportunity...but I do see hard work in your future...trials and tribulations...set-backs...and baby steps forward.

YOu said that their is no common ground. I say that the best in a relationship is re-learning the uncommon in each other and having them compliment one another and turn it into a positive to discover all that is locked within your heart and relationship that you never knew existed. Hard work is in your future...but it will pay off.

Re-read Harleys principles...you can be there again with him. You have more power to unlock the real marriage and relationship you want than you realize right now.

But you will.

Never say never...and never say always.


OYOu cannot change who you were, but you CAN change who you will become.


Best to you !

Flygirl, you wrote:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I've found that males don't really give objective advice very well in most cases - they all think I should dump him and find someone who will treat me better, that he is a man born to be single </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">the phrase 'born to be single' jumps out at me, since it is something that my counselor brought up recently: the notion that some people are too independent to be successful in marriage. I am starting to realize that this may be true of both my husband and me.

Neither of us is willing to give up doing and being certain things. He said years ago that he wasn't going to change (there has been a lot of discord, up to verbal and physical abuse, over the years).

So...I offer that because it might apply to your situation as well. Your husband is willing to make the overtures he wants to make, but not to work in MC. This has also been my husband's pattern.

I have lurked about your thread. I have looked at Chris and Javas replies. I do not believe that they were trying to be unkind. Just direct
That is exactly what I was doing.
If you thought I was trying to be unkind my apologies.

I was a bit sarcastic in the first few sentences but why cry if you win the $5 on a scratch ticket?

I have often thought about the independence issue myself. My H is independent to protect his feelings (or inability to share them). In his first M, he never asked his former W why she left, he said he just didn't want anyone to be with him who didn't want to. They never spoke or met again after the day she told him she was leaving after 8 years of dating and 3 years of M. I believe he never saw or talked to her b/c he was protecting himself. Living behind the brick wall, so to speak.

I now live behind a wall too. I have been shunned behind it by our relationship. I used to be an excellent communicator... very open, very honest, very loving in relationships. Now I am jaded, frightened, resentful, shy, shut off. I don't like the person I am in this M... I don't like how I have chosen to respond to many things. I have told my H that he could indeed bust through the wall, and the things he could be doing to get that done. He has done none of those things. He has done other things to display improvement, but stayed within his "safety zone", failed to prove to me he is serious about changing.

Now, mind you, I haven't been his biggest cheerleader of late. I have become discouraged, hopeless and just stopped trying to convince, urge, plead him to open up to me. NOW he says he wants to, and I just don't have the faith, or the feelings to do so. I fear that if he doesn't, I will yet again be let down. I fear that if he does, regardless it will be too late for me and I will have led him on. I don't want to hurt him anymore, I don't want to hurt. We are both behind our walls, afraid to coax each other out.

I am convinced... CONVINCED that he would be relieved, okay with us returning to our "coexistence" that we had before I stirred up the pot by insisting on separation. I am convinced that he thinks if we can at least get there, then we can make this work. I am terrified of going back to that place after all this hard work, all these tears, all this pain. But we are nearly there now, with him in the house, resuming life as it was. That is both of our faults... him for taking the easy route, and me for being afraid of demanding anything else and allowing it to happen.

As for sin, I have betrayed him, yes. But there are many ways to betray a spouse. Withholding love, truth, praise, emotions are another. I am not alone in my demise.

I think your feelings are in the title of your thread!

He is "Executing" plan A on you!

You feel that the execution is imminent! Soon! He will eventually Execute you with plan A!

But you have a say in this too. You can file for divorce. So that the execution never gets completed!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As for sin, I have betrayed him, yes. But there are many ways to betray a spouse. Withholding love, truth, praise, emotions are another. I am not alone in my demise.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You can not equate the betrayal of infidelity with ANYTHING else, much less such nebulous actions as "withholding of praise." Short of attempted murder, there is nothing a spouse can do that is worse than infidelity, and saying otherwise makes it obvious that you have NO CLUE of the pain you have caused.

Nellie,
I appreciate your opinion, but IMO that just isn't true. I would MUCH RATHER have dealt with an isolated episode of infidelity from my H (and in fact have) than to battle through 14 years of emotional withdrawal, loneliness, sexual frustration.
I felt validated in this when we went to Colorado to have therapy sessions with the Scharch's and she told us the same thing. I can see where you might say that, but having experienced both from him (he had two OP's while we were living together pre-M) I would take the A's as my betrayal of choice in a New York minute.

Affairs can be an emotional love attachment, or just an episode of sexual fulfillment - a selfish, hormone induced whim. Affairs don't even have to be physical, they can be verbal, or mental. There are many varying degrees of them meaning the betrayal may not necessarily rank unilaterally as the worst thing a spouse could do to the other. I'm not saying this to minimize my betrayal, mine was emotionally charged. I just don't agree with making blanket statements and attaching them to everyone. I don't think one can assume that something specific is the worst thing you can to do hurt your spouse. Everyone is different, with different ideas of right and wrong.

<small>[ May 18, 2004, 09:49 PM: Message edited by: Flygirl 13 ]</small>

The interesting thing here is none of us can decide what is the worst thing you can do to your spouse. Your spouse is the one who determines that you actions hurt, and how much they hurt.

So you can debate about whether abandonment or an affair is worse in your eyes.

However, what is important is how does you husband view it.

Like wise, flygirl is saying, and rightfully so that her feeling neglected and having the conversation EN unmet feels worse to her than did the two pre-marital affairs.

I'm not sure I'm making sense yet since my coffee has not kicked in yet this AM.

Tony

Yes, that is what I was saying.

I would guess this is true for my H as well now. I can tell his pain is much more significant over the lack of sex and affection he is getting. That is his #1 EN. He doesn't appear to be too preoccupied with my A now.

In fact, for those of you who don't know... my H actually thought that I was having an A earlier on, and that our daughter was a product of that. He wasn't ever going to say anything about it and just raise her as his own. It was before I would have ever thought I would have one, and I was mortified that a)he suspected me since there were no signs or no basis for it and b)was willing to bury it and move forward with someone who could actually do something like that. *note: my A occurred entirely after we were separated. I could never have done that while living together as a married couple; therefore, I wish we had never separated now. Now I don't want to be together! Ugh.* My H said he concluded that I must be with someone else since I wasn't having sex with him. He didn't at the time understand the diff in sexual needs between men and women.

So, having said all of that, I don't believe my A was nearly as hurtful to him as my withdrawal - both physically and conversationally. He never really wanted or needed emotional connection before IC. Still really doesn't. I have asked him point blank if my A devastated him. He told me "No, it never did devastate me really, I don't blame you for doing what you did and I have forgiven you for it." If he's smoothing it over, then he is still lying and withholding from me. If he is being honest, then the A clearly wasn't the most hurtful thing in the world to him.

You had been having all these problems and yet you went ahead and had 4 kids?

All I can say is WOW.

Hi Flygirl,

In reading your story, I was wondering, what needs your husband met when you were dating?

At some point, there was a basis of attraction. It is possible, that the basis of attraction, is no longer present. Maybe you have grown out of it. I'm not particularly sure what even forms the basis of attraction, and not sure that it can change much.

But, I am not even sure that people share even CLOSE definitions of love. So, we may all be matching this with that.

Anyway, at one point, he did do it for you. Didn't he?

Is that all gone?

I feel for your situation, with 4 small kids. I can understand the pressure you must feel, trying to do right by them, yourself, and even your husband.

I can also understand how you don't want to define him. Yuck. Then he is not your mate, but your creation.

I also do not think you give yourself enough credit for having developed your thoughts as you have. Obviously, you are trying hard to sort everything out. Seemingly, alone. You are not at square one. You have a lot to offer.

Then, about the jolt to your husband. Well, I do not have much hope for that. He IS acting on your OTHER jolt right now. He is not in his comfort zone, I beleive. You don't beleive it either.

Last point on this diatribe. Maybe, you got married when you weren't really ready. The needs he addressed then, were in reality transitory ones. You developed, became who you are. He remained the guy that addressed the needs you HAD.

If this is the case, then I really do not hold out lots of hope for you marriage, at least being what you want.

Seems, he hasn't changed all that much. So, why expect it now?

I don't EXPECT him to change. I want him to, yes. I also don't particularly believe that people fundamentally change b/c of someone else so he really would have to want to and that takes time. Lots and lots of time. There is evidence that he wants to, but in his own way which really doesn't address my ENs at all. It's easy for me to begin to meet his ENs. Two things I have to do and do them all the time. Have sex with him - good or bad he just wants to have sex period. I know this is a primal male need so I don't resent it. The second thing is give him daily doses of affection. Always kiss or hug goodbye (I must initiate it b/c he is afraid of doing that) no matter what or how empty or how yucky it feels to do so. That's it. That's all he wants. Sounds easy, right? Sounds like I am lucky to have an H with such simple, easy needs. And THOSE are the things that are just so empty for me, b/c he cannot (or will not) meet mine. It's all this other "fluffy" stuff he does, and it sounds GREAT, but when the day is done and years go by it's not just flowers that will fulfill me, or a kiss goodbye. It's much deeper than that, and he doesn't comprehend b/c of who he is, who he was raised to be. He looks at me like I am from another planet when I talk about intimacy. Our MC describes him as emotionally asleep, with no idea of how to wake up.

No, I don't want to force him into being someone he isn't, but I demand it out of our relationship either way. I feel immense pressure regarding the kids. I am a product of an ugly, nasty divorced family and look how screwed up I am! I just want the best for my kids, my happiness is secondary.

I talked in another thread about what it was that attracted me early on. It really had little to do with self-satisfaction. It was more about being with someone other people liked, approved of, fit into family life, etc... Ancillary things as a result of my low self-esteem. Not that I didn't love him, not that I wasn't attracted to him... but our relationship was never M-ready and I was never much more than 50% comfortable or certain that it would work out. Bad reasons to marry, I know. But when you're in your mid-20's and want to start a family and don't think you'll find many out there who will choose you...

We function well together in every way but for each other. Anyone who didn't know better would say we were the perfect couple. Crazy.

<small>[ August 05, 2004, 07:25 PM: Message edited by: laura_lee ]</small>

Cheating on you before you married was hardly a kind thing to do, and I would not have married someone whom I had known had done so, but by definition it is not a betrayal of the marriage vows.

You obviously do not believe that marriage is permanent - why then did you not simply divorce him, rather than betraying him? There is no excuse for betrayal, even if your husband had been physically assaulting you and selling drugs from your front porch.

There is nothing worse that my husband could have done to me. Had it not been for the impact of losing both parents on the children (a huge except, of course), I would have preferred that he had murdered me. I do not say this as someone who is in the throes of grief after a recent discovery - it has been five years. Most of us whose spouses have abandoned the family have experienced the emotional withdrawal, etc., that you mentioned as well - and to state that the pain as a result of those issues even comes close to the pain of betrayal reflects an almost unimaginable degree of insensitivity.

<small>[ August 05, 2004, 07:26 PM: Message edited by: laura_lee ]</small>

Flygirl,

What tree(s) should your H be "barking up"? I ask this, because I've been trying to do this, too, but I sense my wife is about where you are...but I don't know 'cos she won't really tell me, or can't really tell me.

What kinds of changes would you have to see in order to believe that real and permanent change had occurred?

Take care...I sense trememdous pain here, and hope that the Holy Spirit will get you through it.

Flygirl,

Do you need an "A" (btw, I mean this as a grade - as in A-F, not as in an "Affair") relationship to be happy?

I like that you are idealistic, but, maybe, a "soul-mate" relationship is more a goal than something that you actually ever have.

Do you really know couples that are soul-mates?

I do not believe that people exist that way. Maybe for moments in time, but not in a long, enduring relationship. I beleive that the only reason we are even monogomous is due to the long time it takes a child to mature.

When you had your soul-mate connections in the past, why did they end, if they were your soul-mates? Seems, that would be a hard bond to break.

Also, MUCH less is demanded while in an affair, than in a marriage WITH 4 SMALL CHILDREN. There is a refuge, coziness to it that makes it a bit surreal. Soul-matish by design.

I guess all I'm suggesting, is that you do a bit of homework, to discern the odds that you will really find "the one".

In fact, how many on here would say they've been involved with a soul-mate?

You say that your marriage does in fact work on many basis: good as parents and such. To me, that is a big deal. My wife and I, for all of our problems, work very well together as parents and our kids are turning out very well (they'll probably dis-own us! hahaha).

Now, as I'm dousing you with cold water, I'm hoping that you are taking this as concern, and not just barb throwing. You sound intelligent, and are pondering things I have. That's why I'm responding to you.

But, now, let's take this a step farther. You did go ahead and have 4 kids together. Really, how much time do you have to do the soul-mate thing?

I bet, you do not even have 2 hours a day for yourself (you work too, right?). I have at most 2 hours. So, I just get snippets of time.

Oh, yeah, he's bad at se_x too. Well, I think you must have had something to do with that too. Do you know his kinks? Does he know yours? If not, why not?

The upshot of this note is, that I think you will find it worthwhile to frame your issues, in a realistic framework. How many of the "things" in your life would you give an "A" rating to? If lots, then I would think you would be oh so happy.

Anyway, hopefully, of some help to you.

Good luck...

<small>[ May 20, 2004, 06:05 PM: Message edited by: MLM2 ]</small>

Her husband is the one who needs emotional support. I have seen few cases on this board (except for SNL) where the WS has exhibited such total lack of concern and cruelty toward the BS - indifference doesn't come close to describing the way SHE appears to react to the pain she has caused her husband. With just about every post, she describes some positive feature of her husband's action, and then turns around and criticizes him for it. For Pete's sake, she criticized him for wanting to raise a child he didn't think was his as his own! I'd hate to see what she would say about him if he rushed in and saved a dozen people from a burning building.