Flygirl, are all the kids his? Only YOU would know the truth.

Just knowing a little about you, Fly, I would say have you considered "cutting your husband loose" so he can find a woman who truly loves him?

If you don't wanna love him anymore, then cut him loose! Why torture him any longer...

baba2

He's got 4 kids, too......

I don't think he wants to be cut loose. For whatever you think of Flygirl, she's got brains.


Everyone here bashes her all the time, but Everyone here has their own issues, or they WOULDN'T be here.

Right?

So, the nasty curt replies helps no one.

Now, for reality dose #2. A poll, please, for Flygirl. Mostly guys should answer, but I guess women can too.

The poll is this. How many guys would be interested in a woman, that has 4 small children?

So, the deal is this. A guy marries a woman with 4 small children. What % of his time is he the woman's husband, and what % of the time is he the acting father to her children?

Obviously, she wants a good acting father. Right?

So, the person who signs up for this, is mostly signing up to be a father, not a husband or even soul mate.

The deal is, some things that are done, forever affect the future. There are some turns in the road, that rule out some destinations.

So, I'll be the first to answer.

No thanks.

Maybe I'm a jerk or whatever. Fine. I am. But, what if I wanted MY OWN family. My OWN kids. On top of 4 others?

This isn't the Brady Bunch.

So, then, ask yourself, what kind of guy WOULD sign up for this, and, Flygirl, would you really want him?

Maybe, it makes sense, to try and make your marriage work. Your husband seems to want to.

MLM, I amn glad you posted. You are way more realistic than me. (I too easily react to pain when I see "pain" being inflicted. )

We all have the choice to change our selves and our marriages for the better if we want to. That is basically why we are here!

Sorry, Flygirl!

<small>[ May 21, 2004, 09:53 AM: Message edited by: baba2 ]</small>

Thanks for the defense, where it's given. I'm learning not to take things too personally when people who don't even know me or my situation criticize so it's okay, really. I've learned that when people speak out, criticize others it is their OWN shortcomings, sensitivities, inferiority or whatever coming out, not mine.

That said, I have thought a lot about the "insta-family" issue and whether anyone would ever even be interested in dating someone with 4 kids. From my mother's experience, my sense is no. But I have been told that as unlikely as it seems, things are a lot different these days since >50% of marriages end in divorce. A great many more people are newly single, with families trying to start again.

My goal in this is NOT to start again. My goal in this is to resolve my issues one way or another, get others' perspective for what I cannot see myself in the midst of all of this chaos and emotional strife and then move ahead with my life. I am very independent, and have absolutely NO doubt that as a single parent I could handle whatever life brings my way. What I am not is dependent - at least enough to allow any feelings of dependency to keep me grabbing on to my marriage with all my might, and that's what I struggle with every single day but it's who I am.

Nellie, I don't mean to deprive you of the right to see the betrayal you felt as the most painful thing ever for YOU. But everyone is different and so instead of telling others how to feel or judging their morality, recognize that it is your situation that puts you in that place, not anyone else's. Salmonella poisoning nearly killed my first son when he was 3. Therefore, I am MUCH more frantic about hand-washing and germs than I am cancer. I consider germ infection to be the absolute worst pain a child could face b/c of how I saw him suffer and nearly die. But I could be the only mother on the planet that feels that way. You may not make your kids wash their hands constantly and buy pasteurized eggs and I doubt that you do. But I would never tag you as a bad person, neglectful mother or a child abuser.

Yes, all my kids are mine, but I only know that b/c they came out of me... they all LOOK exactly like my H. And that was a low blow.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by JustPlainBob:
<strong> Flygirl,

What tree(s) should your H be "barking up"? I ask this, because I've been trying to do this, too, but I sense my wife is about where you are...but I don't know 'cos she won't really tell me, or can't really tell me.

What kinds of changes would you have to see in order to believe that real and permanent change had occurred?

Take care...I sense trememdous pain here, and hope that the Holy Spirit will get you through it. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have been very specific with him about which EN's are most important to me, things he could do to really encourage me to have some hope, faith that this wouldn't be the same old relationship it has been. He has done some things - things in his "comfort zone", so to speak - that are not EN's of mine. I applaud him for those things, tell him they are great, that they are new, that they are appreciated. But that they are not the things that AS A COUPLE draw me closer to him. I have asked him what I could do to start meeting his EN's better. He says "affection - hugs and kisses a lot, and sex". It's a mexican standoff b/c as a woman I have difficulty giving empty affection and it won't be anything else until I see some movement from him. And I sure won't give him any SF to feel like a repository like I felt during the course of our entire relationship. For me to provide SF will require at least some signs that he wants/needs me for more than what I have been (ie... mother, nurse, cook, maid, electrician, entertainment coor., etc.). For a long time I did (mostly) initiate and give kisses, hugs, etc... But there was nothing back so it became very mechanical, false, yucky. I just can't do stuff like that if it doesn't come from the heart. I just can't.

So now as I'm reading things, you haven't really decided on divorce. It's an option, that's all. So, more a jump ball at this point.

And, you're hopeful that you can find someone else if need be. Certainly, I didn't mean to make it sound like the impossible dream, just that it makes things harder. Some will opt out for that (I know guys, that even 1 kid derails things). I play odds for a living (not a professional gambler), and just wanted you to know that that other path is not EASY.

OK, the Mexican stand-off. Well, a little bit of my history here. Marriage totally su_cked. ALL HER Fault (ok, maybe I was a little guilty). Anyway, I worked on and worked on things, with almost no success for a long time.

I seemingly then did what you are now doing; I dropped lots of atomic bombs all over the place. Totally turned the relationship upside down. Now, for a short digression, religion plays no role, in my mind, in my marriage. Don't care about that stuff. I do have kids, though, and, for you to know, I place high importance in my role as a father, and thier upbringing is the most important thing I have on my plate. So, I almost always vote in favor of the kids.

Anyway, that being the case, I had had it. I DEMANDED that I be TREATED as though she loved me, or I was OUTATHERE. I had already shopped for apartments nearby, the works.

I am EXTREMELY good at arguing my points. Again, what I do for a living (no, not a lawyer). So, a problem I had, is that she wouldn't even argue with me (says I turn things around). But, I'm not interested in "winning", I want things "right". So I do not goof. Still, she would not engage me.

What I did, was simply laid out 3 demands that she must do if she wanted me to stay. She had NO choice. I required them. Now, MOST women would do these things IF she loved her husband anyway. I reasoned, that if she didn't want to do them, then she didn't love me, and I would bolt. I think 1 kid would have come with me, the other would stay with her. THAT would have been good, such that we BOTH would have wanted to stay near each other if we divorced. So, that emboldened my a bit.

Anyway, at first, she did these things SO BEGRUDGINGLY.

But, when she did them, it made me happy, cuz I knew then that she at least wanted me around. That turned things "up". I was nicer, and recipricated (note; this took a little time). And, a virtuous cycle ensued. Now, I do not have an A relationship. B, or maybe even B-. But, not a D or F either.

There are things I like about her, and we function VERY well as parents.

I don't know if any such thing could help you. THe se_x is harder to address, if he's simply awfully timid.

Still, I think you should have some optimism. You've changed, and required new things of him, and, maybe not to your liking, but he HAS changed. Right?

I think you are doing some things very well, Flygirl. Maybe, you are just a little impatient?

Take Care

I believe in some degree in changes, but not the ones related to ESENTIAL part of a human being!
It's take it or leave it.
With kids, it should be exercised EVERY possible way to COMPROMISE/reconcile differences.
And I don’t see you do that…..
If it isn't possible, get D, you have to know by now if you have a chance to have marriage you need!
But be aware that if you didn't have enough patience to sort things out with father of your kids, there are minimal chances you'd do with someone who is not.
'Being soul-mates' is fog... and a (good) marriage is - a (hard) work.

I don't believe that number of children is reciprocal to our chances to be with someone else (wouldn’t that be a test how much someone really cares/loves…?), but strongly believe that what we learnt from our past (failures) - IS!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by baba2:
<strong> Flygirl, are all the kids his? Only YOU would know the truth. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Flygirl 13:
<strong> Yes, all my kids are mine, but I only know that b/c they came out of me... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

This reminded me of an old joke (sorry!):
Two actresses were talking about their a few marriages (each) and reasons they were divorcing, when one of them said:
Ah, my husband cheated on me so many times that I’m not sure anymore if I am the mom of my kids.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

There is nothing wrong with judging someone's morality. Humans do that all the time - otherwise civilization could not exist. What if your neighbor thought stealing was not immoral? Could I say that you were merely reacting based on the fact that you didn't like him absconding with your DVD player, and that you shouldn't judge his morality?

Whatever, Nellie. So I am a murderer in your eyes. That's fine.
Those kinds of posts are not helpful so I would appreciate your efforts going to where they might be. I'm looking for advice on what I am doing (or trying to do) now... not more shame or imposed guilt for what I have done and been forgiven for.

MLM2: Gosh, thanks for that story! It sounds so familiar. I have laid out my demands... specifically for him... laid out the things it will take to keep me in the relationship. I have asked for his back. I have attempted to provide many of those in the best way I can (except, of course, SF). He has done other things to try and prove "he has changed". Not any of the things I listed... not a single one. So I have anger & frustration, which I have now decided to bury (for the sake of the kids). I feel love diminishing, I feel respect gone. I feel no hope.

As I write today, he told me he has gone on an "errand". I know what it is. He has gone to go get the rest of his stuff from his temporary home and move it back (it has been there, untouched, for 5 weeks now). It's not the moving the crap back that feels so rotten. He wouldn't tell me where he was going or why. This is the same old H, lying, avoiding, CYA-ing in MC. He has sugar-coated his conflict avoidance and emotional retardation with increased kid assistance. ASSISTANCE HE SHOULD HAVE BEEN GIVING ALL ALONG AS HALF OF THEIR PARENTS.

Yes, I am still on the fence. Yes, I'm leaning to the "outta here" side. No, I haven't done anything yet for the sake of the kids and b/c of the FEAR that my decision may be irrational based on my depression/state of mind.

I guess I would be satisfied with a "C" relationship - especially for now. I'm glad you have gotten there and managed to preserve yours. If nothing else, for the sake of the kids.

<small>[ August 05, 2004, 07:27 PM: Message edited by: laura_lee ]</small>

flygirl,

I am sorry for the pain and confusion that you are suffering. May I please offer another perspective....one I have not yet seen discussed? I have little trouble understanding why your husband's efforts at this late date might be rejected by you (even though it seems somewhat callous), especially since you had an A which does tend to form comparisons. And especially from your descriptions of your past marriage it's not hard to understand why these things are not well recieved. I can see why you might pity him because your heart is now closed to him. At first however, I was very confused by what sounded like true disdain for him though, in the face of what seemed to be real effort. I had trouble understanding how you could hate him for trying.

Here's the thing....I'm not sure you do. It's probably not about hating him or hating what he is doing. Is it possible that what you really hate is the guilt his efforts impose on you...probably heaped on top of what you already felt about the A? You hate the way it impacts your ability to leave the marriage even though you feel as though you should? You hate the way it undermines your resolve to move on? For most women, it takes an awful lot of neglect or abuse to get them to the point where they emotionally check out of the marriage....and it certainly sounds like that is the case for you. Your MC sessions sound very discouraging, frustrating and sad. I wish you had had someone more proactive to draw your husband out more.

I see this far more in women...but some folks actually do seem to reach a "point of no return" where no amount of change or energy is going to turn them around once they have had enough after what they describe as sometimes decades of neglect. I wish you and your husband had found this place when your crisis was not so deep...but you didn't.

flygirl, I think you don't file for divorce because you are fearful. Fearful of all kinds things....failure, judgement, leaving, staying. Fear of just being so paralyzed you can't feel anything at all.

None of this means that I think your marriage is hopeless....but I do believe that you do...and I do respect your right to be happy. I am a firm believer that we should "bloom where we are planted" because more often than not...life is a challenge to overcome the limitations that are imposed on us by all kinds of things...many which we have no hope of changing. For instance, my sister is only 39 and has had MS since she was 30. She has been severely disabled for a very long time...mostly paralyzed, mostly blind. Yet she finds happiness and it is inspiring to me.

Dr. Frank Pittman says:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">“Marriage is not supposed to make you happy. It’s supposed to make you married, and once you are safely and totally married then you have a structure of security and support from which you are free to make yourself happy, rather than wasting your adulthood looking for structure”</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just some things to think about today chere. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

laura_lee,

The discussion of whether we can judge others has been held more than once on this board. If you do not judge, then there can be no standards, no right and wrong, no laws. I am sure that you judge others every day - each time you decide with whom you want to be friends, for whom you want to vote, not to mention when you attribute my firm opinions to some emotion which you believe to be negative.

flygirl,

Please show me where I said that you were a murderer in my eyes. I never made that statement.

Some good points there, well taken. You are right about taking a lot for a woman to "check out"! It has taken a lot, and I have dealt with a lot. True emotional neglect, and I am still getting it even though he says he "truly cares about me and truly loves me and truly wants to spend the rest of his life with me." In my simple little mind, I am looking towards his actions b/c his words are unitone, mechanical and unsupported. In my simple little mind, I believe he has ulterior motives for wanting to stay together that have nothing to do with me: convenience, pride, appearance, assistance, status, kids, you name it. But in over a year of tremendous grief for me and buckets and buckets of tears shed, nary has he shed a one (in my presence). Not once, not once has he said "I love you" with conviction or eye-to-eye honesty.

I am very forlorn tonight. My prediction was 100% correct. Today, he told me he had to go out for a couple hours to "get some errands run". When he got back, in the back of his truck were the remainder of his stuff from his temp home. He didn't take them out all afternoon. He waited, until I had to take my son out for a game and then brought everything inside before I got home. And never said a word about it.

What we talked about at MC this week was one thing in particular... he was challenged to communicate with me what to expect. That much of my fear was him living his life as he wanted regardless of how it impacted me or anyone else (some would say I did that with the A, yes, I did I absolutely did for a brief period of time). He was supposed to if not discuss with me, at least tell me what he intends to do regarding anything (ie... communicate). Again, after all of this, and one simple challenge, he does not. He continues to evade and avoid. THIS is precisely why I am so fatalistic about our M, and as much as I have told him this, it continues. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

I have asked him to increase the odds of SF for us... dress presentably, occasional haircuts, exercise a little. He talks in MC about how he was glad I gave him some ideas and has heard me and wants to pursue SF. But he hasn't done one single thing, not one. Then tonight he goes out for "beer with a (single) friend"? and puts on some decent clothes and cologne... COLOGNE. This is a guy who will mow the lawn in the pouring down rain and go to bed in the same clothes! He shows little if any self pride, and never has as long as I have known him (I have always dressed him, cut his hair, encouraged exercise, etc...). What is up? Is he gay??? (THAT would make things easy, wouldn't it? *kidding*) Last weekend, he said he was down for the night but after I went to sleep he went out, and was out at least as late as 1:30 am. Where did he go? Dunno. I asked, he said nothing. Guys? Any ideas??? The thought has crossed my mind about SF elsewhere, and as sad as it sounds, it really doesn't bother me b/c it seems very unlikely I will ever be physical with him again, whether we stay married or not. Emotional check-out.

Anyway, I hope I am making sense. I can't tell anymore when I am irrational and when I am not. It all runs together. All I know is that my H's presence makes me absolutely miserable. And it has to be making him the same, but who would know? He'll never tell.

Given the way he has acted, and come back home, effective immediately I am haltng our MC. Obviously it has served no purpose, and costs a ton. Clearly, I am more miserable for having tried to affect change and failed, and clearly he is unwilling (or unable) to face up to anything... including my A. There is no value add, we'll see where this thing goes on its own.

<small>[ May 22, 2004, 09:28 PM: Message edited by: Flygirl 13 ]</small>

Fly Girl,
Maybe you would be better posting in the recovery forum as most of the people here are already in the divorce process,close to it, or already divorced.

Some of your issues are probably better addressed by people who have and are recovering from an affair.

I see your affair really only ended recently, and you are probably still pretty much in the fog or in a serious withdrawl. 10 months really is quite long when you are in the emotional high of an affair and you probably havent given enough time to marriage counseling. Perhaps a different counselor might meet you and your husbands needs better. You sound like you are giving up to easily

P.S. Have you read the book Surviving an Affair by Steve Harley?? It might be good to read the book several times. I still read it 1 year post divorce

<small>[ May 24, 2004, 07:56 AM: Message edited by: sunrise1 ]</small>

Flygirl,

As I get to know more of your story, I am beginning to understand what you are up against.

A few random thoughts.

Is your husband successful in other areas of his life (work, friends, hobbies, whatever?).

Where does he take refuge, and from what?

About this “In my simple little mind, I believe he has ulterior motives for wanting to stay together that have nothing to do with me: convenience, pride, appearance, assistance, status, kids, you name it”.

Yes, this is quite possible. If I were to put myself in your husband’s shoes, well, there is only one kind of infidelity I would stay for HAPPILY, and that is what I would call a marriage affirming affair. Still, I would probably stay, ANYWAY. To fulfill my role as father. Then, after my kids left, so would I. That is my situation, and in my situation there is one big difference between me and your husband, in that I am the selfless one in my marriage. So, the neglect, went the other direction. So, in my wife’s case, not an excuse. In yours, perhaps a necessary refuge/growth experience.

About this “He waited, until I had to take my son out for a game and then brought everything inside”. Well, yuck! How are you supposed to deal with someone who acts like this? You get NO say? He just does his stuff, under the cover of dark? Pass on that!

About this “I have asked him to increase the odds of SF for us... dress presentably, occasional haircuts, exercise a little”. There was a time, when I was not so into it in my marriage. When my wife says “you wouldn’t even kiss me”. I said, it was because you didn’t brush your teeth! That’s true.

“Then tonight he goes out for "beer with a (single) friend"? and puts on some decent clothes and cologne”. How long has it been, Flygirl? Do you think he will go without forever? There are many ways in his mind he could justify it. You did it. Now, with him, you won’t. I think, if you are holding out, as time passes, you may just have to come to expect it. Sorry, but it’s a god given drive. Nothing we can do to stop it. Let’s see, there is about 2 minutes or so every now and then I do not have the urge – the 2 minutes afterward! Hahaha.

So, another point about this. My wife, sometimes, uses se_x in our relationship. I won’t unless……. I say, well, se_x is something you have control over. What you bring to the relationship, that I’m dependant on. So I say, well, maybe I shouldn’t pay your bills. After all, making the $, is something she is dependant on. I think, using the THING that the other is dependant on, in a relationship, is dirty pool. I just say that to make a point. If you expect him to stay faithful, despite not getting any, well, maybe for a period of time. But not forever.

About this “Clearly, I am more miserable for having tried to affect change and failed, and clearly he is unwilling (or unable) to face up to anything... including my A. There is no value add, we'll see where this thing goes on its own”. Drawing from my own experience, and comparing notes, it seems that unlike my wife, your husband has just waited you out. I think that with my wife, underlying the mess, she did in fact want a good marriage.

Also, in my case, I found her checking out other guys. She would tell me about this guy or that, and her conclusions about them. She did this for about 3 months. Mostly, other husbands. And she would get yucked out by the whole thing.

I think, that relative to her expectations for a “great” husband, I lack. But, RELATIVE, I look good. When she started checking out what else there was, she decided maybe I wasn’t so bad afterall.

That’s when I noticed more commitment to making me happy. She decided that I was her best option afterall, I think.

In your case, your husband is more selfish. At this point, I get those 3 things, more often that I need. Your husband just puts you on mute. Even after dropping all those bombs. And MC. I wish I had some answers (you got bigger bombs? Hahahaha).

He doesn’t really believe you’ll leave him, I think. Did you ever have a boyfriend, while he lived separately?

Do you have any male friends? Maybe, you could do what my wife did, in reverse. Start letting him know you are doing some comparison shopping, and liking what you’re seeing……

BTW, what did you see in him, before you were married, that you liked? Is any of that still there?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MLM2:
<strong> Flygirl,

As I get to know more of your story, I am beginning to understand what you are up against.

A few random thoughts.

Is your husband successful in other areas of his life (work, friends, hobbies, whatever?). Yes, very successful. He has always been great at athletics, was a tremendous student, achieved executive level at work. He's perceived and is a "nice guy" who is "book smart". In fact, it's difficult to find areas where he hasn't done well outside of the emotional/relationship arena. Probably one of the things that attracted me early on.

Where does he take refuge, and from what? On the golf course. He plays 4 times/week usually (they never see him at work in the Spring-Fall). I have in the past accused him of having golf as his lover. He has lied to me in favor of golf, spent money we don't have, buys new clubs every year b/c he's an addict. And he claims that he doesn't play much b/c he doesn't even play as much as Golf Digest recommends. I took up the game 10 years ago just so I could spend time with him b/c when he was home all he did was sit and read magazines... yes, about Golf!

About this “In my simple little mind, I believe he has ulterior motives for wanting to stay together that have nothing to do with me: convenience, pride, appearance, assistance, status, kids, you name it”.

Yes, this is quite possible. If I were to put myself in your husband’s shoes, well, there is only one kind of infidelity I would stay for HAPPILY, and that is what I would call a marriage affirming affair. Still, I would probably stay, ANYWAY. To fulfill my role as father. Then, after my kids left, so would I. That is my situation, and in my situation there is one big difference between me and your husband, in that I am the selfless one in my marriage. So, the neglect, went the other direction. So, in my wife’s case, not an excuse. In yours, perhaps a necessary refuge/growth experience. I believe my A was an exit A. I already wanted to leave the relationship, frustrated and hopeless that he would ever change. I had some very painful personal things happen to me that he totally ignored, leaving me very hurt and alone. He can't respond to that when I ask why.

About this “He waited, until I had to take my son out for a game and then brought everything inside”. Well, yuck! How are you supposed to deal with someone who acts like this? You get NO say? He just does his stuff, under the cover of dark? Pass on that! Let's be clear about this... I am not MAD that he moved back home. I am very unselfish about this. He has a right to be here, it is his home too. He was very generous to offer to leave (when I was going to wtih the kids) and kind about it. If he wants to come back for any reason other than our M, he can and I have told him so. I am HURT and RESENTFUL that this is yet another opportunity to say "hey, I have decided enough is enough and I am moving my stuff back in... just so you know." Tell me what he is doing, let me know what to expect. Is that asking too much??? Yet, it continues to be something he just can't do. Why? I think b/c he is conflict/confrontation avoidance... he just waits out the storm. Sad thing is, acting this way CREATES more conflict, not avoids it. I don't want the issue to be perceived as I don't think he should be here. Yes, I am uncomfortable in his presence and the quiet evenings were nice but I don't get to make that call while we are still married.

About this “I have asked him to increase the odds of SF for us... dress presentably, occasional haircuts, exercise a little”. There was a time, when I was not so into it in my marriage. When my wife says “you wouldn’t even kiss me”. I said, it was because you didn’t brush your teeth! That’s true.It's ridiculous. And I'm tired of asking him to do what's reasonable with SF as a carrot. People should cut and wash their hair b/c they want to, not b/c they get se x for it. PARTICULARLY around the children (for good habits) or around a spouse you want to eventually resume having se x with.

“Then tonight he goes out for "beer with a (single) friend"? and puts on some decent clothes and cologne”. How long has it been, Flygirl? Do you think he will go without forever? There are many ways in his mind he could justify it. You did it. Now, with him, you won’t. I think, if you are holding out, as time passes, you may just have to come to expect it. Sorry, but it’s a god given drive. Nothing we can do to stop it. Let’s see, there is about 2 minutes or so every now and then I do not have the urge – the 2 minutes afterward! Hahaha. I know this. And as bad as it sounds, I really don't care. I really don't blame him. I can only imagine how frustrated he has been over the 18 months and I know we are nowhere close to being there. I think this is a sign of how checked out I am, when I don't even shudder at the notion of my H leaving home to go do somebody else.

So, another point about this. My wife, sometimes, uses se_x in our relationship. I won’t unless……. I say, well, se_x is something you have control over. What you bring to the relationship, that I’m dependant on. So I say, well, maybe I shouldn’t pay your bills. After all, making the $, is something she is dependant on. I think, using the THING that the other is dependant on, in a relationship, is dirty pool. I just say that to make a point. If you expect him to stay faithful, despite not getting any, well, maybe for a period of time. But not forever.

About this “Clearly, I am more miserable for having tried to affect change and failed, and clearly he is unwilling (or unable) to face up to anything... including my A. There is no value add, we'll see where this thing goes on its own”. Drawing from my own experience, and comparing notes, it seems that unlike my wife, your husband has just waited you out. I think that with my wife, underlying the mess, she did in fact want a good marriage. I want a good M too.

Also, in my case, I found her checking out other guys. She would tell me about this guy or that, and her conclusions about them. She did this for about 3 months. Mostly, other husbands. And she would get yucked out by the whole thing.

I think, that relative to her expectations for a “great” husband, I lack. But, RELATIVE, I look good. When she started checking out what else there was, she decided maybe I wasn’t so bad afterall.

That’s when I noticed more commitment to making me happy. She decided that I was her best option afterall, I think.
This is what I am hoping will happen to me... that he will get his act together, and that I can incent him to do so so that we won't have to start over. I don't want to look back and regret anything, although I already do.

In your case, your husband is more selfish. At this point, I get those 3 things, more often that I need. Your husband just puts you on mute. Even after dropping all those bombs. And MC. I wish I had some answers (you got bigger bombs? Hahahaha).The biggest bomb of all... my A... fizzled out after two days. I have tried all the other wake-up calls, but he is in an emotional coma.

He doesn’t really believe you’ll leave him, I think. Did you ever have a boyfriend, while he lived separately?No, I was 100% monogamous up until last year, never even looked twice at anyone else. I should have ended it many many times when we dated, most self-assured women would have but I didn't think I deserved better.

Do you have any male friends? Maybe, you could do what my wife did, in reverse. Start letting him know you are doing some comparison shopping, and liking what you’re seeing…… Most of my closest friends are male. That's not so great, I'm not sure I get good advice from them. They aren't long on logic and they all think that I am some special person that deserves better (not that they don't like my H, they do but they hate to see me so unhappy). I would never flaunt or flirt with them in front of my H. He isn't jealous anyway, he says there is only one friend of mine he is jealous of, and that before that he never felt jealousy of any kind. He is jealous b/c that person talks to me and reaches me and he doesn't know how to even start b/c he can't feel anything or empathize.

BTW, what did you see in him, before you were married, that you liked? Is any of that still there?If it was, would I be here?!? He was someone I cared about, who would make my family proud, who had some of my father's qualities, who I admired. That's the main reason. Like I said, should have made better decisions earlier. But he is a terrific father!!!!!

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thx, you have some great insight. Your posts are very interesting, helpful for me and I enjoy your input.

<small>[ August 05, 2004, 07:28 PM: Message edited by: laura_lee ]</small>