"In my simple little mind, I believe he has ulterior motives for wanting to stay together that have nothing to do with me: convenience, pride, appearance, assistance, status, kids, you name it".

And you know he doesn't love you... at least not the way you need...

Flygirl, he won't change... maybe he wants but he'll always miss that part of him that you need...

Reading about your H, I recognized my X... so similar in some things... emotionally cold, sneaky, no capability of sharing (plans, inner yourself, life together)... and I can fully understand your frustrations, and your pain... (maybe you just deny your love, but it hurts you seeing not responded to, feeling it never will...), and your anger too...

I hope you'll find the way to open him up and make closer to you... but, he's 47 and I don't believe people can esencially change at that age... not their nature anyway... never their inner selves...
So, you should try to accept him the way he is...
or go for your happiness somewhere else...

PS: You don't have to say to your kids a word (against him) - they will feel it! in every your glance, in every pulse of your voice... and it'll affect/damage their vision of a marriage, love, respect...

Hi Flygirl,

So you're a hockey player? My son is a first year Pee Wee Defenseman. A total nerd (where does he get that?) off the ice, a little man on it. Gives out hits, and will take them too. Just the sport he needed.

Anyway, back to the topic. Mostly, a few questions, and just wanted to make something clearer.

About other "guys", to let him know he is in a "contest". I do not mean that the interaction is with the other guys. What my wife did, was talk to ME (and probably her girlfriends) about them. It was like she went through a list of all the guys that we knew, and sort of projected what life would be like with them. It was thumbs down over and over.

She did not, as far as I know, actually engage these guys in conversation or take it to any other level. She was just taking stock.

It would be a good way to let him know that he is not up to par (hahahaha). And, it does seem he is competitive. I wonder why not, with you?

Anyway, there ARE some good things about him. Succesful, a good father, and he keeps golf equipment companies in business!

But, something seems amiss. He is an executive who is slovenly?

Hmmmmmm......

Now, for you to know. My wife had to work on me a bit when we got married. I am a clean freak, but, am messy around the house and in how I dress. Clean, yes. Orderly, no.

My wife went through my closet, and literally threw out everything she didn't like!

Yep.

THAT caused a fight, cuz I had some really cool glow-in the dark shorts........

Hahahaha

Anyway, she sort of drew a line in the sand. I really didn't care much (I was more clueless, than interested in making any statement of any kind).

Now, I am HAPPY that she goes to the bother of buying my clothes and stuff. Cuz, I STILL could care less!

He is interesting, in that he bothers to look good for others, just not you....

Hmmmmmm...

You have laid out how it is that you view him rather extensively.

How do you think he views you?

Now, human nature might get in the way of answering this.

So, perhaps the best way would be to list 5 attributes of yours he likes, and 5 he doesn't.

That you actually dropped the A-bomb, and he remains unmoved, is very interesting. Is he jealous of the OM? How does he talk about him? Is your husband openly competitive, or does he work on the sly?

Also, you suggested maybe what you had was an exit affair. I am curious. Why does someone have an exit affair with someone they really can't exit with? He was married too, I believe...

Anyway, hope things are looking up for you.

Take Care,

Yes, I know about the kids thing. They pick it all up. I have to turn my frowns upside down for them. The overriding thing that makes it so hard is that whenever I seem "carefree" or happy, my H acts like nothing is wrong and it bugs the crap out of me. That's my problem, not his or theirs so I am going to try to put it away when they're around. But they won't see hugs and kisses from me to him for sure.

I said the same thing to him 18 months ago... I don't think that people fundamentally change who they are inside. And I don't want to change him if he is happy with himself. I think he would be just fine being this way for the rest of his life if he could get away with it (in fact, he's trying). I'm scared to waste any more time and continue to hurt.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MLM2:
<strong> Hi Flygirl,

So you're a hockey player? My son is a first year Pee Wee Defenseman. I have two sons that play... thus inspiring me to take it up, and now I coach too. I have a Mite Winger and a Minimite goalie. Yes, a goalie. I hope he changes.

About other "guys", to let him know he is in a "contest". I do not mean that the interaction is with the other guys. What my wife did, was talk to ME (and probably her girlfriends) about them. It was like she went through a list of all the guys that we knew, and sort of projected what life would be like with them. It was thumbs down over and over.I get that

It would be a good way to let him know that he is not up to par (hahahaha). And, it does seem he is competitive. I wonder why not, with you? I think he knows I am monogamous minded. Don't laugh, yes I did have an A. But after I checked out emotionally from the M. He says he has not but once in his LIFE experienced jealousy, and that was recently with a friend of mine. He said it was a miserable feeling and he didn't want to feel it again. I told him jealousy didn't have to be negative. He was jealous of this guy's ability to talk to me, reach me, make me feel like a woman and good about myself. I told him it wasn't anything he was beyond doing, he just for whatever reason won't make himself vulnerable.

Anyway, there ARE some good things about him. Succesful, a good father, and he keeps golf equipment companies in business!Yes, there are some good things, especially the father part.

But, something seems amiss. He is an executive who is slovenly?disgustingly and it gets worse as time passes.

My wife went through my closet, and literally threw out everything she didn't like!I did too. He didn't care. He let me do it all for him, like taking care of a little child. He would put on the most juvenile or too-small stuff and wear them out to social events. I would all the time ask him to change his clothes and he always did. I bought much of the stuff in his closet (or blessed it) and he still picks the ugly stuff.

Yep.

THAT caused a fight, cuz I had some really cool glow-in the dark shorts........haahahahahaha

He is interesting, in that he bothers to look good for others, just not you....I guess this is what hurts the most. He doesn't really ever care about looking good to anyone. This is why his cologne the other night was so shocking! Even when he tries to dress himself up, it's marginal.

How do you think he views you?He did the EN questionnaire and gave it to me. He gave me the highest for personal appearance and called me a "knockout". I think that's crazy, I don't see myself that way. I do take care of myself, work out, dress nicely, do all the normal stuff that women do to keep up their appearance. Nothing more. I am blessed to have a thin build with no visible signs of past pregnancy. Interestingly enough, he rated personal appearance pretty high in importance! But he admits he doesn't do it. Won't say why.

That you actually dropped the A-bomb, and he remains unmoved, is very interesting. Is he jealous of the OM? How does he talk about him? Is your husband openly competitive, or does he work on the sly?Says he is not the least bit jealous of the OM. Jealous of friends I talk to only. He never mentions the A or OM at all. I told him I would answer any q's he had about it, anytime he asked. My H is not competetive anymore. He says he used to be, but now he is easygoing about everything. Passive about everything. Nothing phases him.

Also, you suggested maybe what you had was an exit affair. I am curious. Why does someone have an exit affair with someone they really can't exit with? He was married too, I believe...
My def of an exit affair is one which people use as ammunition to end their M. Not one which seeks out alternative mates. I have no idea why I did it subconsciously, I just know I was emotionally driven, sexually starved, hopeless for a rewarding M and extremely lonely. All the other "under the surface" stuff, frankly, to me is hogwash.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Good morning Flygirl,

A goalie! So is my son's best friend. His mom can't even watch the games! No fingernails left either....

Enough hockey talk, except, what happened to TB last night?

Well, about your note.

OK, what you have is somewhat of a child for a husband.

Guess what, so does my wife.

I think that we play many roles in a complex relationship such as a marriage. There is parent-child in some ways, confidants, se_x buddies, and we are also competitive in our marriages, work towards different goals, all that.

So, while my wife has, at times, a child for a mate, sometimes, her mate has a child as his wife.

Her and I are OPPOSITES, BIG TIME. I am of Northern European decent - a white mutt. She is 100% Southern European - a boiling cauldron. I am supposed to be the calm on in the relationship (don't always pull that off....).

Don't get me wrong; I like women with Zing. Passive - yuck for me. Wouldn't keep me interested for long at all.

This also pertains to separation of duties. Mine involve keeping the house up to date, being a father (very active - both of us), and paying for everything. I am a sole bread-winner, and my wife "likes nice things". Seems my kids do too....

She has her roles. We run a more traditional type household.....

Well, I am moreso like your husband, in that t-shirts, jeans, and sandals can be worn just about everywhere! (as long as you don't mind the stares!). Hahahaha

Now, in my mind, slovenly is disgusting, too. Clean is required. But dressing up is not a priority. Maybe, like me, he defines himself differently.

Also, about his passivity. I'm not sure your ages. I am in my mid-40's. I am also very successful in my career, which is also a uniquely stressful one.

Now, also, my kids are a bit older. What I've found, about that, is that most of the hard work is done while they are in elementary school. By middle-school, they've mostly become who they are going to be. My older one runs herself mostly (and, mostly, pretty well).

So then, as it is, I could also be said to be a bit passive at this particular point in time. That is because, two of my biggest agendas in life, my career and my kids, are fully established and going well.

The major efforts underlying each are over. In both cases, I put in huge efforts (Herculean on my job; my wife carried a majority of the child-rearing efforts), but they are past.

Truth is, I'm a bit tired....

Truth is, I don't have as much to work towards. I can tell you, that is NOT a comforting thought, as it is a rite of passage thought (into old age....).

YUCK!

I know I am too young for that, and that I have gotten to this point a bit earlier than most is all, but still.....

So, there is angst too, but mostly internally generated Hogwash as you say.

Maybe, he is like me a bit. Maybe, he has become settled, and is a bit passive because there is not much need to be aggressive.

Now, I think I have covered the similarities.

Time, for some dissimilarities (sp?).

From your last comments, it seems that the reasons you had your affair all remain present, and maybe are even more pointed because, post-affair, your husband still does not get it. The wake-up call didn't work.

Emotionally starved. I am beginning to think, maybe, you must have always been so. Why is it now, that this need has surfaced so strongly?

Se_xually starved. Well, here, I would not have acted in any similar way as your husband. I am not timid at all, and would not settle for a se_xless relationship in a million years. Why would I?

He has. He would rather, it seems, than try harder at making you happy. He says it's one of his biggest needs, but can do without, without (hmmmmm…. is that good English?) much angst......

So, his passivity extends well beyond mine. Does "passive" describe the nature of your husband, across all endeavors? Are you the energy source of your marriage?

Anyway, this is rambling. Just a couple of last thoughts.

First, you said the basic nature of a person doesn't change. Agreed. We is what we is, mostly. That is why, I wondered, what you liked about him at first....

Second, something you said to me on another thread hit home, and I will admit to liking to understand the psychobabble stuff. You said, and hopefully I'll paraphrase you correctly, that we pick our mates mostly based on matching "negative" traits, much less so than on "positive" ones.

I thought about this, and came to agree with it. It actually makes sense, in a Darwinian way. I tell my kids, that if you turn a weakness into a strength, that is a major lift in your abilities. Well, maybe we find mates who best address our weaknesses based on the same principle.

When I asked you why you married him, you listed all his "good" traits.

I think you can find a list of good traits about most anyone, though. Right?

Are you cognizant of the negative traits that brought you two together?

Why is that magnetic pull, gone?

And, you coach? Cool......

You are 100% absolutely correct about negative traits being the primary "heat seeking" traits in a dating relationship. You tend to choose a mate who is equivalent to your personal functioning, although the traits may not be exactly the same. I have learned this well. But then, as you grow into the relationship, this makes it easy to "fuse" and when one person doesn't want to function that way anymore, all H-E-L-L breaks loose. This is what has happened to us. I, for whatever reason, outgrew the insecurities, tolerability of the things that kept me in the relationship status quo. I pushed him for change and over the recent years; he didn't know how to respond and instead of risking anything, he didn't respond at all. So I sank into depression, took it personally, started to emotionally check out. Started to realize all the things I feared about his emotional coma (that I thought our love would change) were wedged between us. I own the fact that my lack of self-esteem, and insecurity early on kept me in the relationship despite large warning signs that this would eventually happen. But I have always been someone who wants someone close, to share feelings with, who can understand and bring me off my "independent don't need anyone" pedestal.

As for me personally, am a mix of extremes, not much grey area at all. That's often what makes things so hard in trying to help me or deal with me when I am upset.

I am very masculine in many ways... as you may have guessed, I love sports - it is my #1 hobby. I am very ambitious, didn't take me long to climb the corporate ladder, but I have many men at work who are intimidated by me for my knowledge and confidence. I don't allow myself to be intimidated when at work, it is the one place I have no self-esteem issues or lack of confidence. At the same time, I have very close relationships with many at the office (men AND women), it is where most of my closest friends over the years have been forged. I am very athletic (enough said). I am a lead-foot driver. I hate window-shopping. I hate pink. I won't let my daughter have a tea set (but I do buy her babydolls! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

I am very feminine in many ways too. I am a devoted and loving Mom who absolutely adores her children. I am very into my fitness and my figure. I love dressing as a professional woman, wearing a string bikini, lingerie, etc... (you get the idea). I only recently have been able to accept and actually be comfortable with compliments about my body from others. Before, I was very self-conscious. Now I am very flattered (although I still don't always know how to accept it). I want my daughter to be as prissy as she wants, I LOVE to see her be a girl and do some of the things I never did as a tomboy.

I say all this to say that for these reasons I am not like hardly any other women I know. I am certainly a-typical in that regard. As a result, I have many men tell me that makes me very very unique and special (particularly b/c of the sports part). My H has told me if he lost me he would never find someone else the same. His male friends have said the same to him in my presence. It's very flattering. Yet, he has never expressed anything on an everyday basis to let me know he feels that way. I have felt very ordinary, very convenient in our M. That more than anything else made me vulnerable and led to my A I am certain.

For many of those reasons, I tend to seek out and listen more attentively to advice or opinions from men. It is a man I am trying to understand, relate to, and it is a very very a-typical man. I don't have the "customary" feelings about my A, and my H hasn't had the "customary" reaction to it. My H knows that I have always been a very loyal person, a very honest person, a very EMOTIONAL AND REACTIVE person and that I have always tried to live my life the right way. It's not the same as many here.

My H is 49, 12 years older than me. Emotionally, he is my 5th child. Functionally, he is in many ways a teenager (does what he wants to do when he wants to do it regardless of the circumstances or ramifications).

It's not stuff I didn't know when we dated. It's not stuff I didn't know when we married. It's stuff now that I don't want a life of. I could do more to insist, I could do more to urge, I could to more to prevent, I could do more to love. Today, I believe that most of our R is where it is b/c of me. When he does things the old way, I react with hibernation. When he tries to move closer in HIS WAY (which doesn't have anything to do with my EN's), I don't respond or encourage anymore. I am not typing on recovery b/c at this point my heart is telling me I don't want to fight this fight anymore. My head is telling me I have to. They are at war, and my sanity gets caught in the middle. I am not afraid of DV, I am afraid of its consequences. Not for me, but for my kids, for my family, I am deathly afraid of what other people think, of letting them down. Eventually, except for my kids, NOONE else matters but us. Maybe I'll get that through my thick skull and actually be able to shift out of neutral.

PS I do coach, and it is SOOOOOOOO cool. I coach wherever my kids are. To teach kids at that age... they are so ready to listen and learn and so wide-eyed. And to be able to teach and train them into what they want to be able to do is the most rewarding thing I have ever done outside of raising my kids. It is phenomenal, and I don't get paid a dime to do it. I would recommend it for any parent who wants to stay involved with their kids, and loves being around other young people. It's indescribably rewarding.

<small>[ May 26, 2004, 11:17 AM: Message edited by: Flygirl 13 ]</small>

Good morning Flygirl,

Impossibly busy today, but your note was very interesting and I wanted to respond at least a little...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Flygirl 13:
He didn't know how to respond and instead of risking anything, he didn't respond at all.

Also, some people just do not like very close personal relationships. When I met my wife, I had exited a "soul-mate" type of relationship. It took a lot out of me. I really wasn't ready to go there again, and, in my wife, I found someone who was not built that way. Maybe, you found someone who is just not built that way either....

But I have always been someone who wants someone close, to share feelings with, who can understand and bring me off my "independent don't need anyone" pedestal.

From reading about you, you would be quite a challenge for most guys...

As for me personally, am a mix of extremes, not much grey area at all.

Well, I'm not so sure. The gray is what makes everything in life so interesting. You are on the fence, too. I really do not know you all that well, but it seems as though there is little about you that is staid....

That's often what makes things so hard in trying to help me or deal with me when I am upset.

You seem more settled, recently. Do you know why?

I am very masculine in many ways... as you may have guessed, I love sports - it is my #1 hobby. I am very ambitious, didn't take me long to climb the corporate ladder, but I have many men at work who are intimidated by me for my knowledge and confidence. I don't allow myself to be intimidated when at work, it is the one place I have no self-esteem issues or lack of confidence. At the same time, I have very close relationships with many at the office (men AND women), it is where most of my closest friends over the years have been forged. I am very athletic (enough said).

And, you have low self-esteem? This is odd, but I've seen it over and over. High achievers with low self esteem. Maybe they go together a bit. But, it seems, you are finally giving yourself credit. In fact, despite the quandary you find yourself in, I sense in you a clarity of thought that is unusual.

I am a lead-foot driver.
Not surprised....

I hate window-shopping.
Me too!

I hate pink.
But, I bet you drive a minivan....

I won't let my daughter have a tea set (but I do buy her babydolls!
Whoooooa! This is just too much. No tea set? Now, I have to dock you a large number of good mother points.....

I am very feminine in many ways too. I am a devoted and loving Mom who absolutely adores her children.
That comes through loud an clear. I get, that you are very responsible, maybe overly so.

I am too. I have found that this is not such a good trait. Others, begin taking it all for granted...

I am very into my fitness and my figure. I love dressing as a professional woman, wearing a string bikini, lingerie, etc... (you get the idea).
Stop that now.....

I only recently have been able to accept and actually be comfortable with compliments about my body from others. Before, I was very self-conscious. Now I am very flattered (although I still don't always know how to accept it).

Flygirl, you seem to be in a period of strong growth. It seems to me, that you are already quite far along in your thoughts.

It is simply the case that you have put yourself in a difficult situation. But then, that's why you're here!

I want my daughter to be as prissy as she wants, I LOVE to see her be a girl and do some of the things I never did as a tomboy.
I think it's important to give kids the room they need to become the person they want to be...

I say all this to say that for these reasons I am not like hardly any other women I know. I am certainly a-typical in that regard. As a result, I have many men tell me that makes me very very unique and special (particularly b/c of the sports part). My H has told me if he lost me he would never find someone else the same. His male friends have said the same to him in my presence. It's very flattering.
So, you have succeeded in life in many ways..... And, now, are addressing what's left. An important relationship.

Yet, he has never expressed anything on an everyday basis to let me know he feels that way. I have felt very ordinary, very convenient in our M. That more than anything else made me vulnerable and led to my A I am certain.

How long have you felt lonely in your marriage?


For many of those reasons, I tend to seek out and listen more attentively to advice or opinions from men. It is a man I am trying to understand, relate to, and it is a very very a-typical man.
Yes, but you are not typical either.

I don't have the "customary" feelings about my A, and my H hasn't had the "customary" reaction to it. My H knows that I have always been a very loyal person, a very honest person, a very EMOTIONAL AND REACTIVE person and that I have always tried to live my life the right way. It's not the same as many here.
I get that too. So does he. He knows your true nature, and how far outside it you ventured. I'm surprised, that in seeing that, he has not gotten just how far out of your head you were. It seems, you are supposed to be the nurturer in your marriage, and you have no license to being the one nurtured.


My H is 49, 12 years older than me. Emotionally, he is my 5th child. Functionally, he is in many ways a teenager (does what he wants to do when he wants to do it regardless of the circumstances or ramifications).
All guys remain teenagers for life! It's what we do.....

It's not stuff I didn't know when we dated. It's not stuff I didn't know when we married. It's stuff now that I don't want a life of.
I really believe, that it is SO hard to stay married for life. Unless one is staid, or has a rather modest agenda in life, there is a great deal of change. That means, that what you want changes lots over time. I think, we are only monogomous (sp?), because of the long length of time it takes children to mature.

I could do more to insist, I could do more to urge, I could to more to prevent, I could do more to love.
Seems, you do too much already....

Today, I believe that most of our R is where it is b/c of me. When he does things the old way, I react with hibernation. When he tries to move closer in HIS WAY (which doesn't have anything to do with my EN's), I don't respond or encourage anymore. I am not typing on recovery b/c at this point my heart is telling me I don't want to fight this fight anymore. My head is telling me I have to. They are at war, and my sanity gets caught in the middle.
Can you tell him this?

I am not afraid of DV, I am afraid of its consequences. Not for me, but for my kids, for my family, I am deathly afraid of what other people think, of letting them down.
Well, I sense you are getting over this hang-up...

Eventually, except for my kids, NOONE else matters but us.
Yep...

Maybe I'll get that through my thick skull and actually be able to shift out of neutral.
Seems you are not in neutral at all.... I think, there just is not a lot of people capable of helping you, where you are at today. Most on this site can't. Are you in therapy personally?


PS I do coach, and it is SOOOOOOOO cool.

I help whenever needed. And, it is fun. To talk with the kids, during the game. It is easy to forget, sometimes, when looking at these kids on the ice, with all that equipment on, that they are little kids. It is hilarious some of the questions I get....

Anyway, have a nice weekend Flygirl. Try to keep your stick down.....

Bye Bye
[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

I do NOT drive a minivan!!!!!!!!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> I abhor minivans. I am CONVINCED that minivans sap the brains out of otherwise intelligent people and turn them into mindless, wreckless, incapable drivers. It's not the owner's fault, it is the car that does it to them. Minivans should be illegal.

I drive a gas-sucking, emission spewing, parking spot hogging SUV. But it's the only alternative to the minivan so it's good! Oh, yeah... this is another way I am masculine... I am VERY into cars, sportscars in particular and would much rather be driving a Z4 stick, powder blue hardtop. But that's not where I am in life right now. Oh well.

Thx for the input. It continues to help me sort through things. I am hard to handle (at times) b/c I am so different than most (which is why some of the female advice I get doesn't compute) but I certainly think the cost/benefit ratio is tipped heavily in my favor. This thinking is different for me from the past. I didn't used to think I was worth a crap and needed to take whatever I could get and make it work. You get what you ask for in life.

<small>[ August 05, 2004, 07:29 PM: Message edited by: laura_lee ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by laura_lee:
<strong> Hi Flygirl,

Men are so different than women. They just are. We need to accept differences that come from being male vs. female.

Is it possible, and can it be, that your husband is soooooooooooo frustrating... because you are wanting things no male can really give you..... like being more emotional etc... like a woman, in general, is?

I once heard a marriage counselor give it to an H straight. He kept wanting his W to be this way and that way... and she wasn't... and he was soooooooo frustrated. The counselor looked at him and said, "I have the perfect solution. Marry a man. Cause you keep wanting your W to think, feel, and behave like a man... and she's a woman... and she's never going to." The H thought about it, the counsellor said, and re-evaluated his expectations... and was never again so frustrated. He learned to accept differences... and enjoy them.... lol.

Men are going to put up a wall if they don't feel loved, respected, and admired by a woman. And getting frustrated with them won't make them give out what they reflexively give out when they feel loved, respected and admired.

Flygirl, bless you, but you can cut off your H until kingdom come... and you'll never get from him the love he would be more prone to freely give... IF YOU'D JUST GIVE HIM SOME!!!! lol (isn't that what he's thinking.)

Laura </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thx, Laura for the advice, I really appreciate it This is where I am with it...

I see your point about seeking out female qualities... as many masculine qualities as I may have, a woman just isn't in my biological makeup. There are certain things about a man that just can't be substituted!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I think ALL women gravitate towards wanting the emotional intimacy that women innately have, hetero or not. It's what makes woman friendships so close, so special.

I accept common male differences, and can easily live with them. I am prone to many of them too, and so they really don't bother me that much. We go way beyond that, way beyond. I wish we were as simple as playing nursemaid when he's sick.

So, as for me giving love freely without trying to force, or wait for change and my EN's to be met...

When I was on the recovery board, this is really the essence of what folks were telling me to do. Unfortunately, I was in an A fog at the time (or was I???) and the thought of trying to "move closer" to my H brought out all kinds of anger, resentment, bitterness mostly driven by my depression.

Now I am on meds that are helping curb the depression more than the previous ones. And now I am on the divorce board.

Why?

Because after all of this, we are basically right back to where we have always been. We have both done some changing, neither one of us has been able to (or ultimately wanted to enough) change the parts of us that create such distress in our relationship. We are both guilty of mediocre efforts - him b/c he is comfortable in his passivity, me b/c I've been drained of the respect and love I had for him and don't really want the M anymore.

I understand completely what you are saying about men, and I agree with you wholeheartedly. I think as atypical as my H is, he is very common in that way. He gripes about feeling "unwanted, unneeded, unloved" when he chooses to complain, and then he waits for me to do something about it. Most of the time he takes the atypical approach of head in the sand and putting on a smiley face. He's such a child (he even likes to pretend he's an airplane when he walks, in adult company, no sound effects, just arms spread out, tilting from side to side, it's strange). But it's not all bad, sometimes I wish I could do more of that, but it's really hard to have an adult relationship with someone who really has no adult, mature emotional thinking.

When it comes to my H, I am emotionally bankrupt. It's the sidestepping situations that keep him protected, but also have kept me out. And now, I don't really want in.

Yet, a small teeny tiny part of me isn't pulling the trigger just yet, hopeful that God or some angel will come down, beat me over the head and give me the patience, hope, desire, courage to stay together and raise happy, solid kids. They are really the only thing we have in common at all anymore, but they are everything to me.

<small>[ August 05, 2004, 07:30 PM: Message edited by: laura_lee ]</small>

Out of commission for awhile.....

As always, I find your posts interesting.

I am wondering, if you are a late bloomer?

I am....

And, getting married, is a decision we make, much younger. MOST of my decisions, when I was younger, were not so great. So, why should I think, that my choice of marriage partner would be?

IF you add the fact that you are a late bloomer (or, late to have self-confidence or...), then, the decision made then may be totally innappropriate for now.

You may have been addressing psychological needs that you have addressed in the meantime more effectively. Se_xually, you may not have developed as you are now. So, LESS, or Different, was ok THEN.

Now, I get, that you are an aggressive woman with places to go and things to do.

You only get to live once (that you know for sure - don't know what your religious beliefs are.....), and you want more.

I am sensing this is the case, cuz it is somewhat my deal too....

Seems you are somewhat into self-actualization. That is a broad term but I am guessing you'll get what I mean.

So, in looking at myself, there were certain needs my wife met pretty well when we met:
1) she is good looking, in a unique way. Lots of se_xual desire, both ways.
2) we have a certain chemistry, that has not faltered over time. This goes beyond se_x.
3) My family line had gone to sh_it, and I wanted to re-establish it. So, I needed a high-effort mom, and a woman who would not allow lots of other family input.
4) I wanted someone I could deal with, about issues.
5) I think I ALSO wanted some things which were dysfunctional (but, at the time, things I needed TO function). I had ended a soul-mate relationship for some complicated reasons. That relationship lasted for about 3 years, and was very involved. Ending it was VERY hard on me. So, I could only handle someone, who didn't really extract those emotions in me. They were too raw, and I just couldn't go there. So, in a way, I was looking for someone who was somewhat superficial.

Now, the reason I'm telling you this, is that what worked really well at one time, doesn't work so well now.

Now, I'm bored with this (but, thankfully, she doesn't do the airplane thing! hahahaha).

Still, I have to ask myself, is it still ok?

Maybe not what I would choose today. Well, certainly not.

But, if I were to choose today, would it be ok?

I mean, I have met many women in the meantime, that I think would be a better match.

But, there are the disruption costs. The costs to my kids. The costs to her (after all, I didn't really even know exactly what I was doing then, I think moreso reacting to base impulses, than thinking "oh, now I want one that doesn't go deep".

It's not her fault, right? (of course, she brought her own baggage....)

She is dependant on me, now, for most things.

Then, there is the thought, and I am really curious as to your thoughts about this, as to the sustainability of a soul-mate type relationship.

Now, I was in one, for 3 years. But, it was not a complete relationship (I'll just let you wonder about that....). It didn't have all the demands, of my situaition, or the even greater demands of yours.....

Anyway, gotta go.

Bye Bye

Oh, before I forget. THis was interesting. Would you mind expanding on this a bit more...

"We have both done some changing, neither one of us has been able to (or ultimately wanted to enough) change the parts of us that create such distress in our relationship. We are both guilty of mediocre efforts"

Bye, again..

Okay, am I a "late bloomer"?
Independently and responsibly - NO. I was a mother before I was a teenager (not in the literal sense, but in the way I caregave for my siblings, and took my father's role on when he split).
Emotionally - NOT SURE. I have been an emotional train wreck since my parents went through their very dysfunctional and very nasty divorce. It haunts me still. My Mom had an A, then a nervous breakdown. My father was a voyeur in a sense, hopping from woman to woman while separated from my Mom. I took it all very personally, and very hard. It's what scares the bejesus out of me now when I think of divorcing my H. But this is a completely different set of circumstances. I don't think I ever developed self-esteem until just recently.
Sexually - ABSOLUTELY YES. My H was my first sexual experience. It wasn't romantic, it wasn't good, it wasn't tender, it wasn't exciting, it wasn't pleasurable. It sucked. I didn't before him b/c I was looking for the "right guy" who would make it safe, and something special. My H just basically took me to end a first date. I was significantly younger, new at it and afraid to tell him no for fear he wouldn't go out w/ me again. Since up until my A I have been completely monogamous, I had never ever ever experienced anything but servicing my mate. My H couldn't take it any deeper than that, although I tried and failed.


As for what I said about not changing and him not changing... I'm not sure why we are still where we are and always have been. For me, it's that I don't believe that people can FUNDAMENTALLY change who they are, and since I don't believe that, I don't believe he will ever be able to provide me with the things I need to be emotionally happy. And since I don't believe that, I am unincented to really change myself. After all, for once in my life I actually like who I am... despite realizing I am flawed enough to do something so bad as have an A. It's like... I've lived my whooooooooole life trying to be "perfect"... consumed with "living the right way". And now I know that isn't really living. You can do things well, not perfect, and you can try to live right by yourself, and still allow yourself to be human.

I think up until my A, I have done right by my M. I have tolerated most everything, I have been patient, I have been communicative, I have been honest, I have been adjustable, I have been accomodating, I have been willing to take on 80% or more of the daily routine without complaint. What I didn't do right was to be stronger about expressing how unhappy I was. What I didn't do right was to continue miserable se_x until I had checked out. What I didn't do right was to allow my H to walk all over me repeatedly when he was being selfish about what he wanted to do when he wanted to do it. I grew up not wanting to be my parents. I wanted to be the best mother, sweetest wife, someone my H would be proud of being married to. I, as usual, was more concerned with everyone else but myself. And in my A, the tide turned and I was concerned ONLY with myself. Now I need to find a way to be concerned with myself (#1) and my kids (#2). When and if my H ever found a way to be concerned about anyone else in his life BESIDES himself, then maybe he'll make MY list. As of now, he is OFF.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have been an emotional train wreck since my parents went through their very dysfunctional and very nasty divorce. It haunts me still. My Mom had an A, then a nervous breakdown. My father was a voyeur in a sense, hopping from woman to woman while separated from my Mom. I took it all very personally, and very hard. It's what scares the bejesus out of me now when I think of divorcing my H. But this is a completely different set of circumstances. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">i seriously doubt its a completely different set of circumstances. what you look like to me is that you are repeating familial relationship patterns that you learned from your Family of Origin, but that you are intelligent enough to realize that this pattern repetition is contrary to your stated personal goals. . . hence the internal conflict without resolution. . . this clash of values is very confusing because you didn't have eny control over what you learned as familial home life. . . its called implicit learning. . .

you were thrust into a homelife that is now haunting you as a child of irresponsible parents. i suspect that your H is very similar to your father in many ways, not all, but many, especially with the maturity level, and the FWH x2. . . that which feels most comfortable to you, without understanding its ramifications, without understanding why. . .

yet you have a pretty high opinion of yourself in alot of aspects, none of which relate to your marriage, (sports, career, etc) (so do i: national college championship, top 20 in the country at one point, two successful careers for myself, all the way to the top of both. . i still play whenever i can, coach and referee, so what??)

these accomplishments have nothing to do with marriage, as i once thought myself. . . you are now entering your own personal growth period of finally growing up, and in doing so, you are trying to decide how to resolve following in your family's footsteps, and NOT following in your family's footsteps because you didn't like their footsteps as they stepped all over you. . . that's why stepping on your children is something you want to avoid, and i commend you for that insight. . .

this dillemma is your struggle. . . internal stuckness, and in reality, you need personal counseling, real, solid personal counseling, to slay your own personal demons, because you have more than you realize, although you talk a good line. . .

yeah, i read all these posts, and some more, and really, you are not any more atypical that the rest of us. . . it is nice to think of oneself as different, atypical, etc, but i have met other women with just those characteristics that you have described. . . same screwed up family life, same sports (national level competition and career oriented successes). . . all due in part to the family life that they grew up in. . .

some of these women that i know, tried lesbianism, as they were so turned off by men. . . that didn't work either for most of them, as they ran into the same basic human relationship problems, that are NOT gender specific. . . hiding behind gender explanations is a sign of a simple mind, one that assigns reasons based upon visual differences, because that is the easiest to deal with. . .

and you can reply with all the standard exceptions and you don't know me defenses that you want, i couldn't care less how your life turns out, its not mine nor do i know where yours even resides. . . if i did, i still wouldn't care.. .

but i will tell you, i have been here alot longer than you have, and learned alot more than just reading here, and i see in you, a very cerebral person, but yet a very emotionally damaged person from your parents. . . and that damage has not been dealt with, and is haunting you right now. . .

you need to come to terms with yourself and your values, you might think you understand them, but you don't understand from where they really come. Why? because you formed these values at an age when you didn't have the emotional capacity to put them into perspective. . . but you carry them around with you now, and they are causing you to be stuck. . .

find a really good, individual counselor, and make your goal to understand yourself, from where you came, and how to forgive your parents. . you will be surprised what you find out. . . that you only think you know right now. . .

good luck. .

wiftty

Goodmorning Flygirl,

About the "late bloomer". I have more to say on this later. But, my more general point, was derived from the view that there are different types of affairs. Or, more generally, relationship problems.

On the one hand, there are the "acting-out" affairs. The poster below yours (just above mine) thinks that that's what you had. Could be the case.

Then, there are the "blossoming affairs". Where, you married someone who met your needs very well at one time, but you changed, and he didn't, and now there is no fit.

I think that as relationships mature, a couple of things happen. First, spouses tend to adopt the interests of the other. I see that you have tried to do that. Second, if there are kids, they are natural glue. Third, they develop a large network of acquaintences, so that altogether, they have their ENs met.

But what if ONE EN was that close relationship tie? Then none of the above really works. Also, if you are into self-actualization, you probably won't settle for a C relationship.

Anyway, what I was getting at, before, about the negative traits compelling coupleship, the late blooming stuff, and even when I asked what you found in him you liked at the beginning of your relationship, was to see where in this admittedly simplistic range of situations you were.

Before, when you said that negative traits are the lightning rods, I agreed. Then, as I've read more from you, I began thinking that perhaps this is what's going on (I recognize this, as I am working through things of a somewhat similar nature).

Sorry, for how frazzled this note is....

Anyway, you mentioned that you were very protective of your se_xuality. Then, slept with your future husband on the first date. That's interesting, right?

Perhaps, some of your "negative traits" (and by these, now, I'm referring to what are really basic drives - ones that are part of your hard-wiring) were brought out by the RIGHT circumstance.

Like, when you subconcsiously (sp?) recognize a certain situation. Other parts of you were triggered; people don't really know what love even is, and I think many people confuse an acting out situation with love.

Because, the drive IS SO INTENSE. The pull of an acting out experience is otherworldy.

I still don't know you well enough to say even what I think the % chance of your situation is this or that. Maybe you are acting out, maybe not...

I'm just offering these thoughts to you. Maybe they hit home in some way, maybe not.

About being a late-bloomer, maybe you are, in the sense, that finally you are no longer under the spell of the acting out drives.

Or, if you are, you are now at least somewhat aware of them.

I think you may not be, because if you were, you would still feel a pull towards your husband. However, it is not such an easy call.

Because, maybe your husband just doesn't hit the nerve real well anymore. Maybe, OM did better?

Just some thoughts for you.....

I think it would be interesting for you to identify the base impulses, in you, that are triggered by guys you are attracted to.

Why do you like guys with this trait, but not that?

Ever wonder about that?

No one ever does. Yet, we live our lives chasing these "negative trait matches".

Then, if the positive ones are "ok" - it's a deal!
Hahahah

Anyway, to your note:

Independently and responsibly - NO. I was a mother before I was a teenager (not in the literal sense, but in the way I caregave for my siblings, and took my father's role on when he split). Emotionally - NOT SURE.

So, you had a hard childhood. Me too.

I have been an emotional train wreck since my parents went through their very dysfunctional and very nasty divorce. It haunts me still.

How does it haunt you now? For me, I have basically excused my parents from my life...

I don't think I ever developed self-esteem until just recently.

What happened for you to finally give yourself credit? Do you know?

Sexually - ABSOLUTELY YES.

Better late than never! Hahahaha

Well, maybe you need to be the teacher here. I will say that until recently I found this very odd - that the woman would want more (frequency/variety) than the man.

But, I've come to believe that it is usually the man that limits things (particularly variety - maybe the woman limits frequency).

In my case, I pretty much have pushed BOTH, till the woman says I've hit the limits of their comfort zone. Now, I've also always wondered what underlies their comfort zone. In my case, no one has ever got me to mine.

Do you think you are up against his comfort zone? Do you know his kinks? Does he know yours? Or, are you blushing now.....

As for what I said about not changing and him not changing... I'm not sure why we are still where we are and always have been. For me, it's that I don't believe that people can FUNDAMENTALLY change who they are, and since I don't believe that, I don't believe he will ever be able to provide me with the things I need to be emotionally happy.

When you write like this, I'm thinking again that you are a self-actualizer and just won't settle for a hum-drum marriage.

But, things are multi-variate, right? That's what makes things confusing. The issue isn't 100% this or 100% that, it is a combination.

And since I don't believe that, I am unincented to really change myself.

Seems, you were the malleable one in the marriage. Now, you don't want to be anymore. I think that's healthy. Changing, to fitting whatever role he wants of you, is not a good way to live your life. You weren't happy that way, right?

After all, for once in my life I actually like who I am... despite realizing I am flawed enough to do something so bad as have an A.
Well, I think you should like who you are. You think for yourself. Very few in life do. And, about your flaw, there are far worse.

It's like... I've lived my whooooooooole life trying to be "perfect"... consumed with "living the right way". And now I know that isn't really living. You can do things well, not perfect, and you can try to live right by yourself, and still allow yourself to be human.

Well, Flygirl, are you just a role-player, or a person?

I think up until my A, I have done right by my M. I have tolerated most everything
Maybe you shouldn't have...

I have been patient, I have been communicative, I have been honest, I have been adjustable, I have been accomodating, I have been willing to take on 80% or more of the daily routine without complaint.

That's why he's so happy with the way things were. You WERE the relationship. You are a giver, he a taker.

I think that that goes beyond whether you are selfish or not. I think it is one of those negative traits, that you matched up with him.

Have you ever been involved with another "giver". Think about that. How, would a relationship with another giver, look?

What I didn't do right was to be stronger about expressing how unhappy I was. What I didn't do right was to continue miserable se_x until I had checked out. What I didn't do right was to allow my H to walk all over me repeatedly when he was being selfish about what he wanted to do when he wanted to do it.

Here, you are growing as a woman. He should appreciate that...

I grew up not wanting to be my parents. I wanted to be the best mother, sweetest wife, someone my H would be proud of being married to. I, as usual, was more concerned with everyone else but myself.

Seems, a role you had to perform as a child, too.

And in my A, the tide turned and I was concerned ONLY with myself. Now I need to find a way to be concerned with myself (#1) and my kids (#2). When and if my H ever found a way to be concerned about anyone else in his life BESIDES himself, then maybe he'll make MY list. As of now, he is OFF.

Well, it may be the case, that going back to your marriage, AS IT WAS, would be the least healthy choice you could make. At least for yourself.

The trouble is, he is so dam_n stubborn, in his way. If he is willling to just co-exist, then, what you are doing, really cannot force change in him.

Anyway, hope this was not too much psychobabble for you.....

And, I think, you should recognize that you are already very far along in this process. You have a self-awareness few have. This, I think, is the best tool for getting wherever you need to go, in life.

If you are acting out, though, you need to consider therapy, I think. I went through therapy, and it was one of the best things I've done.

Take care,

<small>[ June 01, 2004, 08:36 AM: Message edited by: MLM2 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by WhenIfindthetime:
i seriously doubt its a completely different set of circumstances. what you look like to me is that you are repeating familial relationship patterns that you learned from your Family of Origin, but that you are intelligent enough to realize that this pattern repetition is contrary to your stated personal goals. . .

this dillemma is your struggle. . . internal stuckness, and in reality, you need personal counseling, real, solid personal counseling, to slay your own personal demons, because you have more than you realize, although you talk a good line. . .

yeah, i read all these posts, and some more, and really, you are not any more atypical that the rest of us. . . it is nice to think of oneself as different, atypical, etc, but i have met other women with just those characteristics that you have described. . . same screwed up family life, same sports (national level competition and career oriented successes). . . all due in part to the family life that they grew up in. . .

I SAID ATYPICAL IN THE SENSE THAT I DON'T KNOW ANY OTHER WOMEN QUITE LIKE ME. WHEN I WAS A CHILD I FELT LIKE AN OUTCAST B/C I DIDN'T DO THE USUAL "GIRLY" THINGS. I HATED MYSELF FOR IT IN COLLEGE, EVEN THOUGH THE MEN TRIED TO CONVINCE ME BEING UNORDINARY WAS ATTRACTIVE (TURN ON) FOR THEM. I HATED IT. I WANTED TO NOT STAND OUT IN A CROWD. TODAY, NOW, I AM FINALLY LEARNING TO LOVE MYSELF FOR WHO I AM AND NOT FEEL THE NEED TO MASK MY "DIFFERENCE". AND IT IS STILL A VERY ATTRACTIVE TRAIT FOR MEN (OR SO I HAVE BEEN TOLD). MY H SAYS THAT HE WANTS THIS TO WORK B/C HE WILL "NEVER FIND ANOTHER WOMAN LIKE ME". NOT NECESSARILY SO, MAYBE HE CAN'T HANDLE A WOMAN LIKE ME. FOR SURE, HE DOESN'T KNOW HOW TO SHOW LOVE TO WOMEN IN GENERAL - ALL OF HIS RELATIONSHIPS HAVE FAILED FOR THE SAME REASON.
ANYWAY, BACK TO ME... IT IS REWARDING FOR ME TO HAVE AT LEAST A LITTLE TEENY TINY BIT OF SELF-ESTEEM AND NOT TRY TO BE SOMEONE I AM NOT.

some of these women that i know, tried lesbianism, as they were so turned off by men. . .
I CAN ABSOLUTELY SEE WHY THIS HAPPENS, IT JUST ISN'T SOMETHING I FEEL THE URGE/DESIRE TO DO. I THINK THIS IS A BIOLOGICAL FACTOR THAT DOESN'T APPLY TO ME.

and you can reply with all the standard exceptions and you don't know me defenses that you want, i couldn't care less how your life turns out, its not mine nor do i know where yours even resides. . . if i did, i still wouldn't care.. . WHY WOULD I? I THINK THIS IS A TERRIFIC POST!!

i see in you, a very cerebral person, but yet a very emotionally damaged person from your parents. . . and that damage has not been dealt with, and is haunting you right now. . .

AT SOME POINT YOU NEED TO LET YOUR PAST GO AND BE AN ADULT. WHY CAN'T I DO THAT?!?!?!?!

you need to come to terms with yourself and your values, you might think you understand them, but you don't understand from where they really come. Why? because you formed these values at an age when you didn't have the emotional capacity to put them into perspective. . . but you carry them around with you now, and they are causing you to be stuck. . .

I FEEL LIKE I AM WIGGLING OUT, BUT ALSO CHICKENING OUT WHEN THE RUBBER HITS THE ROAD. I HAVE KNOWN FOR A LONG TIME THAT IF I EVER SPREAD MY WINGS, MY H'S EMOTIONAL RETARDATION WOULD BE THE BACK-BREAKER. SO HE'S IN COUNSELING TO TRY AND GET OVER IT, BUT IT ISN'T REALLY GOING ANYWHERE AND I AM NOTHING BUT FATALISTIC NOW.

find a really good, individual counselor,
I HAVE ONE... SHE IS SO-SO, OR I CAN'T REALLY TELL

and make your goal to understand yourself, from where you came
I'M TRYING!!!!!!!

how to forgive your parents. . I HAVE FORGIVEN THEM. I PUT ALL THE BLAME OF THE HURT ON MYSELF. I LOVE THEM DEARLY AND HAVE A GREAT RELATIONSHIP WITH THEM NOW. IT'S ME I CAN'T FORGIVE FOR NOT BEING ABLE TO HANDLE THE GRIEF

THANKS AGAIN FOR YOUR INSIGHT. IT'S VERY HELPFUL!

wiftty [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MLM2:
<strong>
Anyway, you mentioned that you were very protective of your se_xuality. Then, slept with your future husband on the first date. That's interesting, right?

YES. IT WAS B/C OF THE AGE DIFF, I WAS HUMBLED INTO IT, EVEN THOUGH HE DIDN'T HAVE TO PRESS IT VERY HARD. I DIDN'T WANT TO SAY NO AND LOOK LIKE A CHILD, AFRAID. I HAVE ALWAYS HAD A HARD TIME ADMITTING THAT I DON'T KNOW SOMETHING OR HOW TO DO SOMETHING. IT'S THE PERFECTIONIST IN ME. SO I COULDN'T ADMIT IT AND HE WAS PLAYING THE SAFE GAME OF SAYING NOTHING.

Perhaps, some of your "negative traits" (and by these, now, I'm referring to what are really basic drives - ones that are part of your hard-wiring) were brought out by the RIGHT circumstance. EXPLAIN...

I still don't know you well enough to say even what I think the % chance of your situation is this or that. Maybe you are acting out, maybe not... I'M NOT SURE I GET ANY OF THIS, PLEASE EXPLAIN!

About being a late-bloomer, maybe you are, in the sense, that finally you are no longer under the spell of the acting out drives.

Or, if you are, you are now at least somewhat aware of them.

I think you may not be, because if you were, you would still feel a pull towards your husband. However, it is not such an easy call.

Because, maybe your husband just doesn't hit the nerve real well anymore. Maybe, OM did better?
OM WAS ONE OF THE MOST DYSFUNCTIONAL MEN I EVER MET... EXCEPT PHYSICALLY WHERE HE WAS DYNAMITE. HE WAS VERY NEEDY (NEEDED ME) LIKE MY H DOES. FELT GOOD FROM OM, FEELS CHILDISH FROM H. I KNOW, I KNOW THAT'S NORMAL!!! I COULDN'T MAKE A LIFE WITH THAT LEVEL OF DYSFUNCTION. I WISH I HAD SENT H TO IC EARLIER AND MAYBE, JUST MAYBE THINGS WOULD BE DIFFERENT. NOW, BLOODY WATER EVERYWHERE.

Just some thoughts for you.....

I think it would be interesting for you to identify the base impulses, in you, that are triggered by guys you are attracted to.
OM GOT ME BY GIVING ME A SINGLE ROSE. THAT'S IT. IT WAS INNOCENT TO ME, AND TO HIM AT THE TIME (IT WAS JUST SITTING THERE AND HE HANDED IT TO ME). THERE WAS NO PRIOR FLIRTATION JUST CASUAL CONVERSATION. BUT IT WAS THE FIRST FLOWER I HAD EVER BEEN GIVEN BY A MAN AND IT MADE ME FEEL SO.... LIKE A WOMAN.
OBVIOUSLY DYSFUNCTION ON SOME LEVEL ATTRACTS ME. I AM THE "FIX IT" TYPE, I HAVE AN ANSWER FOR EVERYTHING. I LIKE TO MAKE PEOPLE FEEL GOOD, WHICH MAKES ME FEEL GOOD.
I AM ATTRACTED TO MEN WHO CARE ABOUT THEMSELVES (NOT ARROGANCE) AND TAKE CARE OF THEMSELVES. THEY DON'T NECESSARILY HAVE TO BE BRAD PITT, BUT THE ATTRACTION COMES FROM A GUY WHO OBVIOUSLY CARES ABOUT THE WAY HE LOOKS FOR HIMSELF, NOT JUST FOR OTHERS.
AND FINALLY, MEN WHO HAVE RECREATIONAL THINGS IN COMMON WITH ME. I LIKE TO SOCIALIZE, I AM A TALKER IN SOCIAL SITUATIONS. I LIKE TO PLAY. I LIKE TO HAVE FUN. I DON'T SOCIALIZE WELL THESE DAYS, B/C I AM HUMILIATED OVER MY M AND I DON'T WANT OTHERS TO KNOW IT IS FAILING. AGAIN, MY PREOCCUPATION WITH WHAT OTHERS THINK, STUPID BUT I CAN'T HELP IT.

Why do you like guys with this trait, but not that?

Ever wonder about that?

No one ever does. Yet, we live our lives chasing these "negative trait matches".

Then, if the positive ones are "ok" - it's a deal!
Hahahah

Anyway, to your note:

Independently and responsibly - NO. I was a mother before I was a teenager (not in the literal sense, but in the way I caregave for my siblings, and took my father's role on when he split). Emotionally - NOT SURE.

So, you had a hard childhood. Me too.

I have been an emotional train wreck since my parents went through their very dysfunctional and very nasty divorce. It haunts me still.

How does it haunt you now? For me, I have basically excused my parents from my life...
IT HAUNTS ME INSIDE, I HAVE FORGIVEN THEM. THE PROSPECT OF A FAILING MARRIAGE, THE SHAME, THE SHAME, THE SHAME. THE DISAPPOINTMENT, WHICH IS HUUUUUUUUUUGE FOR ME B/C I NEVER WANT TO DISAPPOINT OTHERS.

What happened for you to finally give yourself credit? Do you know? PROBABLY THE A, REALLY. IT WAS THE FIRST TIME I HAVE EVER IN MY LIFE FELT DESIRABLE, ATTRACTIVE, SPECIAL, IMPORTANT, CARED ABOUT, A PRIORITY. IT BROKE THROUGH MY "WOE IS ME" BARRIER.

Well, maybe you need to be the teacher here. I will say that until recently I found this very odd - that the woman would want more (frequency/variety) than the man.

But, I've come to believe that it is usually the man that limits things (particularly variety - maybe the woman limits frequency).

In my case, I pretty much have pushed BOTH, till the woman says I've hit the limits of their comfort zone. Now, I've also always wondered what underlies their comfort zone. In my case, no one has ever got me to mine.

Do you think you are up against his comfort zone? Do you know his kinks? Does he know yours? Or, are you blushing now.....

MY H AND I HAVE NEVER BEEN EXPERIMENTAL OR HAD VARIETY. I TRIED EARLY ON TO BREAK HIM OUT OF HIS SHELL, AND ALL WE EVER DID WAS HAVE ORDINARY, VERY BORING, VERY NOT-ABOUT-ME SEX. I AM EXTREMELY OUTGOING WHEN COMFORTABLE. THERE ARE VERY FEW THINGS I WON'T DO, IF ANY. BUT - AND THIS IS A BIG BUT - I HAVE TO BE COMFORTABLE TO BE CONFIDENT. I HAVE TO KNOW I WON'T BE REJECTED. I HAVE TO HAVE A PRETTY GOOD IDEA MY PARTNER WANTS THE SAME THINGS. I HAD NONE OF THIS WITH MY H. HE WAS A BRICK WALL.


As for what I said about not changing and him not changing... I'm not sure why we are still where we are and always have been. For me, it's that I don't believe that people can FUNDAMENTALLY change who they are, and since I don't believe that, I don't believe he will ever be able to provide me with the things I need to be emotionally happy.

When you write like this, I'm thinking again that you are a self-actualizer and just won't settle for a hum-drum marriage. DON'T WANT TO, WHO SHOULD??

But, things are multi-variate, right? That's what makes things confusing. The issue isn't 100% this or 100% that, it is a combination. YOU KNOW IT.

And since I don't believe that, I am unincented to really change myself.

Seems, you were the malleable one in the marriage. Now, you don't want to be anymore. I think that's healthy. Changing, to fitting whatever role he wants of you, is not a good way to live your life. You weren't happy that way, right? NO, NOT AT ALL

After all, for once in my life I actually like who I am... despite realizing I am flawed enough to do something so bad as have an A.
Well, I think you should like who you are. You think for yourself. Very few in life do. And, about your flaw, there are far worse.

SOME WOULDN'T AGREE. I TEND TO SCORN MYSELF HARDER THAN ANYONE ELSE COULD. OH, THE SHAME, OH THE DISAPPOINMENT OF IMPERFECTION.

It's like... I've lived my whooooooooole life trying to be "perfect"... consumed with "living the right way". And now I know that isn't really living. You can do things well, not perfect, and you can try to live right by yourself, and still allow yourself to be human.

Well, Flygirl, are you just a role-player, or a person?
I'M NOT SURE. I'VE NEVER CONSIDERED MYSELF IMPORTANT ENOUGH TO ASK FOR ANYTHING REALLY.

I think up until my A, I have done right by my M. I have tolerated most everything
Maybe you shouldn't have...

I have been patient, I have been communicative, I have been honest, I have been adjustable, I have been accomodating, I have been willing to take on 80% or more of the daily routine without complaint.

That's why he's so happy with the way things were. You WERE the relationship. You are a giver, he a taker.

I think that that goes beyond whether you are selfish or not. I think it is one of those negative traits, that you matched up with him.

Have you ever been involved with another "giver". Think about that. How, would a relationship with another giver, look?
I DON'T KNOW!!!!!!!! I'VE NEVER BEEN INVOLVED WITH ONE. ONE OF MY VERY BEST AND CLOSEST FRIENDS (A MALE) IS A GIVER AND OH HOW I WISH I HAD SOMEONE LIKE THAT TO TRY. HE'S AN INCREDIBLE HUMAN BEING AND MAKES ME FEEL SO LOVED, SO IMPORTANT, SO ACCEPTED FOR WHO I AM. I LOVE HIM TO DEATH. BUT AS A FRIEND, THAT'S AS FAR AS IT WILL EVER GO. I THINK YOU NEED FRIENDS LIKE THAT. I WOULD LOVE TO BE IN A RELATIONSHIP WITH SOMEONE LIKE THAT!

What I didn't do right was to be stronger about expressing how unhappy I was. What I didn't do right was to continue miserable se_x until I had checked out. What I didn't do right was to allow my H to walk all over me repeatedly when he was being selfish about what he wanted to do when he wanted to do it.

Here, you are growing as a woman. He should appreciate that...

HE DOES. HE JUST WANTS ME TO JUMP BACK IN FEET FIRST AND DO THINGS HIS WAY, ON HIS OWN TIME. HE WANTS ME TO CONFORM WITH A PROMISE THAT HE ONE DAY WILL. I THINK HE REALLY DOES LOVE ME DEEPLY, BUT GUESS WHAT? HE HAS NEVER, EVEN TO THIS DAY, BEEN ABLE TO TELL ME SO. I DON'T BELIEVE HE EVER WILL. AND HE LEAVES ME WHEN I NEED HIM THE MOST B/C HE CAN'T HANDLE IT.

I grew up not wanting to be my parents. I wanted to be the best mother, sweetest wife, someone my H would be proud of being married to. I, as usual, was more concerned with everyone else but myself.

Seems, a role you had to perform as a child, too.

And in my A, the tide turned and I was concerned ONLY with myself. Now I need to find a way to be concerned with myself (#1) and my kids (#2). When and if my H ever found a way to be concerned about anyone else in his life BESIDES himself, then maybe he'll make MY list. As of now, he is OFF.

Well, it may be the case, that going back to your marriage, AS IT WAS, would be the least healthy choice you could make. At least for yourself.

HE IS HOME, AND WE ARE THERE RIGHT NOW.

THANKS, YOU ARE ALL SO CARING, AND THOUGHTFUL AND IT MEANS SO MUCH

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<small>[ August 05, 2004, 07:31 PM: Message edited by: laura_lee ]</small>

Thanks, it was so-so. I worked roughly 30 hours (got a lot going on at the office), my 3 yr old son had surgery (not serious) and my loving adoring H gave me my birthday card... two weeks late. And it referenced a BJ, and along with that was a Vickie Secret gift cert. Nice try but the card on the right day would have improved his odds. Don't get me wrong - VS money is the best kind, and I will spend it but not for him! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Otherwise, it was nice b/c it was void of any kid activities, and I went to a cookout/party Saturday night (without H, I wanted to enjoy myself). It was the first party I have been to in probably 2 years (I haven't felt very social lately) and I had an absolute blast!!!!!!!!!!! I knew only a few people there, but made some new friends. And I didn't have to 'pretend' to be anyone I'm not - including a "happy wife". I think I need to do more of that socializing.

I hope yours was good, thanks for the well-wishes.

Realizing that these notes are getting a bit lonnnnngggggg.....

I think I'll try to make them more bite-size...

That's not a promise (hahahaha).

Anyway, I'm presuming that my ramblings are of some benefit to you.

This WILL be short.

But, I have noticed that you seem to swing, between being the active and passive in your roles.

Seems, you were forced into a strong role as a child. Very pro-active. While this was not so great then, it seems to have helped you build your strengths....

Then, you felt you could NOT be this way, to snare a husband. Went totally passive.

This then reversed, to where you were fully in charge again.

How did the transition occur?

Was he happy to cede control?

You say you have all the responsibility, but none of the control, right?

So, maybe in some ways, he is still controlling the relationship.

Then, with your OM, you are back into your caregiving side.

This may be acting out.

Do you know what that means? (I do not mean to be patronizing, so don't take this the wrong way). Succinctly, acting out is the replication of past behaviors, over and over, as a means to attempt to address some conflict. Usually, these are childhood conflicts, ones which are unresolved. So, we act them out, as adults, to resolve them.

Anyway, it could be viewed, your OM, as an acting out episode, from your past. The other poster, sort of mentioned this, when she noted that it probably felt very intimimate and familiar, the CIRCUMSTANCE, even if you didn't know why. Perhaps, because you lived it in another way. There is a psychological pull to this.

People act out constantly. I spent time examining this in myself in therapy.

Just something to think about. Again, everything is multi-variate, but to the extent that you continue to find yourself chasing your tail, with he same kind of guys, then something else is driving you this way.

That is also why I asked if you could conceive of yourself with another giver. You said YES, but I would bet that would really yuck you out.

I'm not sure about this. This is the whole psycho-se_xual stuff....

Sorry to get so deep into the psychobabble with you, but I'm not sure how else to look at this. We are our psychology.....

Anyway, I find it vey interesting just how we choose our mates. Why some, but not others? What, exactly, makes you really want to f__k one guy, but could not stand the thought of it with another?

This is a very complicated and important dynamic in life, but one in which no one spends 1 minute of time (other than psychbabblers such as myself) thinking about.

For you, it seems there is se_xual tension present when you caregive. In both of your se_xual relationships, you were in that role. Something about that, does it for you.

You think that being with another giver would be real nice, but note that you know someone like that but that he is just a friend. I'm wondering, if you think it could become more (is he single?). Would it yuck you out?

The reason I'm bringing this up, is that you are two for two in the kind of guys you go for. You mentioned that something about dysfunction gets you....

I would think, that if you divorce, the last kind of guy you would want to end up with is another one of these. Right?

So, maybe something to think about. Why, do dysfunctional guys, turn you on?

And THATS long enough!

Hope this helps.

Also, lastly, just to point out the obvious, but it DOES seem that you have a lot of good things going on in your life. Probably, more than most. So, keep your chin up!

Take Care,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I PUT ALL THE BLAME OF THE HURT ON MYSELF. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">blame, what blame?

why blame? life is not about finding fault, not about assessing responsibility for everything, you can't, because of randomness.

Fooled by Randomness by Nassem Taleb. You should read the tome, the book also discusses how career's blow up that were previously well thought out, studied, and historically backtested, ie, full of experience. . .

start looking for random events, then start expecting random events. . . and you will start to see many, many, much, much more, unless you think you can control your environment. . .

secondly, read "If you meet the Buddha on the Road, Kill Him!" its a master's level book on human psychology, discussed through great works of literature. . . such as Romeo and Juliet, Siddhartha, and a few ancient stories, that i can't remember. . .

then read, "The road less travelled" because it ties this all together in a lifestyle that you might choose to live.

now, those are reading designed to make you understand from where you came. . . actually, to figure it all out takes quite a bit of time, to go through the memories, and understand the motivations, the why's of your parents. . . to realize that they lived in a different era,. . . and since society's values change, alot of today's marriages don't come with the expectation of today's equality. . .

there is a lot to stand back and learn. . . which is what life is all about, progression, even if your H doesn't, you can still progress, without divorce, but you have to learn to lead quietly, and lovingly. . . and to be firm and consistent. . . without expectations that everything will be under control. . .

but in the absence of implicit learning, or learning from your family of origin, youhave to learn explicitly, or through teachings and writings, not experiences. . . and then through trial and era to put the knowledge to your test. . .

you can do it, but it really takes time, and start reading these books, and then start thinking, and all of a sudden, your life will start to make sense, because you have the capacity and the maturity to make sense out of it. . then you can make good decisions. . .

BTW, with the comment about uniqueness, if you have a small circle, you will be unique. As your circle of friends grow, you can learn from all of them. . . and then you will learn that humans struggle with lots of issues. . . but the best part is to ask questions, and get other's to talk, without talking yourself, and then learn where they fit in on your readings.. .

good luck,
you are really in a great position to grow by leaps and bounds, you ust have to make it a reading priority, and stufying, like you do on your job, . .

wiftty