Thanks Gregg,

I'm not saying I agree at all with what women choose to do. I'm very supportive of anyone who has the grace, the courage, and the perseverance to "turn it around"... and I see some great examples of that here. Really great men and women trying. And I think that that covers everyone here - even those struggling with having an A along with those struggling with those who are having an A. Those who are here, to me, are trying to varying degree to overcome hurt and pain and to recover themselves - their ability to feel loved, to give and receive love - and the ability to have healthy relationships.

So kudos to you all!

Indifference probably doesn't feel like hate - but, to be honest, to me it is. The most callous of hate - because it doesn't even express conflict. It just gives the "silent treatment" verbally or emotionally. It's like torture. It's so cruel.

Dr. Harley says that the state of withdrawal is a shutting down of a marrriage - a greater progression towards "divorce" than conflict.

So indifference is emotional withdrawal - worse than lashing out - more pronounced than verbal or other abuse - it's the worst.

That's why, to a woman (speaking for myself) - it's hate. It may not feel like hate to the one being indifferent - but let me tell you from the receiving end - it's mental emotional cruelty greater than other forms.

So even if that doesn't make sense on Mars, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> , it does seem to make sense on Venus.

Do I think men are trying to "hate"?

If I was going to guess, I would guess that they are stuffing their own hurt feelings, trying to be "strong"... trying not to "take it out" on their wives... trying to "stop" the emotional rollercoaster ride... by simply... withdrawing their feelings.

And that's when the rollercoast flies off the track and crashes to the bottom of a deep ditch in a flaming ball of fire and smoke... to a woman.

To a man, he probably was just trying to "help"???

Not sure.

I'm from Venus. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

And I know that the sexes aren't always intentionally trying to destroy one another's love for each other... sometimes the planets... just collide!!

And that's not to minimize or justify or make it "okay" for a wife to divorce or have an A on her husband. It's not okay. But I certainly know how nazi it feels to have a man become stoic and refuse to communicate and shut down.

I'd rather be punched.


God bless,

Laura

WMWB... hmmmm how many of these haven't we heard? none that I can tell ..

LL, You know I do agree with you on a few of your points. BUT, NOT ALL MEN DO THAT .. it was my STBXW that pulled away .. and made me feel unloved and unwanted. I might have missed the warning signs .. but I told my STBX EVERYDAY how much she was loved .. I also showed her in the things I did from day to day ..

I can tell you there are alot of men in these forums that yes .. addmittedly have
" neglected " our spouse at some point in time, not meaning to .. and most of us are here trying to make it better or to move on with our lives. Learning from our past mistakes ... JMHO

WMWB .. hey I just heard from one of my old neighbors that my STBXW is planning on moving in with the OM ... and that I can have the house .. HMMMMM that's just what I want to do .. move next door to them .. wouldn't that just be a big happy family <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> - again I ask what DOES go thru there heads? The WS I mean ...

My ex said..

1) "25 years. Im like the military 25 years and Im retired"


2) I abused him.......lets see......he

broke my finger..had to have wedding ring cut off in middle of night because of swelling

gave me black eye, and split lip (on fathers day..when I was pregnant with first child)

Gave me STD..2 months after we were married..his friend "dragged" him to a prostitute

twisted my wrist and had to have it xrayed..he threw me out of car in pouring rain 1/4 mile from hospital

ripped clock radio from wall in dark and smashed it down on my chest repeatedly while I was laying in bed

had 2 overdoses and I had to give him artificial respiration in front of my 2 screaming children, on Thanksgiving, with parade going by and hundreds of onlookers gawking at my private hell

rape

broken heirloom antiques..from my side of family

Dragged me out of bed at 2am and made me sit there and watch him sharpen his knives (he is a chef)and show me how sharp they were

threw an ax at me

threw a 6 foot fence post at me

chokings

punches

OW

Lies

interrogation by police for his hit and run

mental abuse

sexual abuse

mental abuse from his dysfunctional family

financial problems due to his multiple DUI's

Other woman

etc..............


3)He said I made him "feel bad" could it be..UMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM he feels bad because he is guilty of a lot of crapola??????


I dont think fog is the proper term here. I need a stronger term. mabe he was throwing up some "quickrete" in the middle of that fog

Reading your posts, I'm really grateful I don't have to live next door. My H and OW have moved about 50 miles away, which is a great relief.

But I still feel the same self doubts. I heard the same type of accusations from my S(omeday)TBXH. Logically, I know it's his guilt feelings about his own behavior, but I still feel this irrational need at times for him to acknowledge that it wasn't all my fault and that I'm not the horrible person he said I was.

I've spent literally years here trying to sort out my part in all this from his. I've bent over backwards to be reasonable. I've supported H and the OW for 3 years (while neither of them has worked) and I'm doing both my H's former job and my own as well as paying their rent directly to their landlord. I'm not writing this to sound like a martyr but to show how far I've let his insults push me. I've given him way too much power in my life, but I'm getting better.

Today, I'm much less influenced by what he says about me. He's been dragging the divorce out for years now, but last week set a court date to demand a large sum of $$ from me, prior to the final divorce, so that he can purchase a house. Once again, he's portrayed me as the bad guy and himself as the victim. But, this time, it barely phased me.

In the past I would've bent over backwards to prove him wrong, but today I'm no longer falling for his manipulation. My position is, settle and you can have all the money that you're due, in the meantime, I'll keep sending you your biweekly checks and paying your rent(all of this is now being deducted from his share of the final settlement), but that's it.

Selfishness and self-centeredness are human traits that belong to all of us, both male and female. The same is true of the desire for love, trust, and companionship. While I know there are differences between the sexes, both have affairs, both behave selfishly, both try to justify their own behavior by blaming their victims, and both hurt when they've been betrayed.

It's a great relief to know that others feel the same way we do and that others have gone through the same experiences that we have and not only survived, but thrived. Look at your WS's. Would you trade places with them? Despite all the pain my H put me through and how much I've lost, I don't envy him in the least.

"Experience is not what happens to a man. It is what a man does with what happens to him." -- Aldous Huxley

LL;

Emotionqal withdrawl is not indifference-it is emotional withdrawl..while what you say about Harley is close..it is incomplete-It is out of context. Harley does not condone affairs...nor does he condone indifference. But they are both the by-product of a lack of real communication of needs and their execution.

And indifference after an affair ignores the WS culpability. And believe me..I did voice my feelings and Plan A'd my tookus off..and asked a lot of questions..it is when I was met with nothing,,,that I became indifferent. And it took a long time to get to that point. If my ex coould not understand mu indiffere

Indifference is not the worst mental enotional cruelty...but an affair is and will remain the worst form.

It is the betrayal of trust..indifference is not.It falls into the category of The Laws of Unintended Consequences. Fallout.

I am sure indifference feels like hate to you. it would to me too.

But,the act of infidelity is THE worst form of emotional cruelty and as such indifference would have no meaning within the context of this thread or this forum.

So I respectfully disagree with you.

And I really question whether you would rather be punched. I for one could not do that. That is cheap and demeaning. It is an emotional reaction that is unthinkable.

I concur with GM. Indifference dosen't hold a candle to the hurt caused by infidelity.

Gregg,

I'd much rather be punched! Cause I'd slip the punch and counter with a right cross... ba da boom ba da bing!! lol

Gregg, I certainly didn't intend to be at all offensive in speaking specifically into your situation - cause I don't know your situation. I was just speaking in general terms - and it's not always applicable, to be sure. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I broke my XH's jaw once. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> He was a fighter. He was quite professional. He was quite good. He was much bigger than me.

He wanted to go out drinking one night. I just wanted to sleep and get up for work the next day. So I told him, go ahead if you want - but just don't wake me up when you come home because I have to work in the morning.

Well, he woke me up. He refused to let me sleep. He wanted to wake me up to tell me about all the boys he beat up that night drinkin' and a fightin'. (I really didn't want to hear that - didn't think it was very nice.) So he drags me out of bed and I patiently listen.

THEN, he wants to see how well I could fight. (We never got in a physical fight before then.)

I politely declined.

He asked me to punch him.

I politely declined.

He asked me to punch him.

I politely declined.

He asked me to punch him... and grabbed the shoulder of my nightgown and ripped it... to motivate me.

I paused. I had a silent moment of prayer. I said, "Lord, he has verbally asked me 3 times to punch him... may I?" Amazingly enough, I felt in my heart that the answer was, yes... ie "Make my day." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Right cross. Broke his jaw.

Swift to the groin. Never had children after that, boys! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

He keels forward cause, well, I knocked some sense where there hadn't been any... and I took the back of his head, grabbed a handful of hair, and introduced his nose to my knee as I swing it up to meet his nose... with all prejudice. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Well, I left him in a huddle on the floor... thanked the Good Lord for that "Samson" anointing... and went on to bed.

The XH? Well, he eventually picked himself up from the pile I left him in on the living room floor - and went outside and slept in the car that night.

Never challenged me to a fight again, brothers!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I STAND BY MY INITIAL STATEMENT... lol.

I'd rather be punched (or have some guy try it)... cause I got a Samson anointing at the ready... and the Lord on my side... and I'll be fine. The silent treatment, to me personally, was worse.

And as for the indignity of the emotional reaction... I was very calm actually.

The Lord teacheth my fingers to fight.

And, little sister, who put up with your WH's physical abuse... please, in the future, call a cop... and PRESS those charges! You do not put up with that. My XH would have ever done one thing your XH did to you, his butt would be sitting in jail.

I wouldn't have punched my XH and kicked his behind - but he was a really, really, really good professional level fighter... and he asked me 3x to punch him... and I asked the Lord... and the Lord said yes.

I love God. He had me kick my XH's behind... and, no, I'm not open to other interpretations. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

God bless,

Laura

LL-

Wow…let me tread lightly here and choose my words wisely, I don’t need you getting all Samson-ized on my behalf (besides, I like my jaw in tact and while I don’t intend on having more kids… I do put a priority on keeping everything in proper working order… <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ). I can see the point of what you are saying… but I think one has to make a few leaps to get there. Neglect is an act, indifference is an emotion… definitionaly they are not the same. I can see where you would perhaps label neglect as an intentional act of hate, but indifference is an emotional response, that for me anyway, came about as a coping mechanism stemmed from dealing with copious amounts of conflict with my W… both before and during her A. It was not an act of hate… not on my part. The neglect my W claims I was guilty of also was not born of hate. What she claimed was neglect was at best her dislike of where her wants and needs fell on MY priority list.

***DISCLAIMER***
I don’t for one second claim to be a purely innocent party here, please please please don’t think I am trying to make myself out that way…we all know better (including myself). It takes two to make the marriage work and I am just as guilty of getting us to the point that made her a possible and I will, to this day take at least 50% of the responsibility for that… perhaps more. And I am not saying she was unjustified in feeling how she felt…not at all, but I don’t think she handled it all that well. End of disclaimer.

I feel as though I bent over backwards for her and yet she was never happy, knowing what I know now I can see that I was applying my efforts in the wrong places… but hindsight as they say is 20/20. It seemed to me that no matter what I did, no matter what I tried to give her in terms of lifestyle or relationship… it was never enough. It seems to me that she has always been far more indifferent than I have ever been. I tried to set up counseling 2 years ago and she wouldn’t do it… “What is the point, are we going to have to see a therapist for the rest of our married lives?” is the response I was met with. How do you answer that? I know that she felt like I didn’t care and I know that she felt like she wasn’t important to me and I know that she felt neglected. However, I don’t see what I could have done any differently. No matter how I tried to address the issues… nothing was good enough, I got no feedback from her, and things only got worse.

Here is where I have a problem with your initial statement LL, and this is more based on (and perhaps better directed to) my experience with my W over the last year and a half… You say that when a woman feels neglect she tells her man and he does nothing, or marginalizes her complaint or tries to convince her that she is wrong and she ought to feel “X” instead of what she feels… From the male perspective of being on the receiving end of those complaints, this is like reading hyrogliphics. Being a clear thinking, right barined manly individual… my initial response is to solve her problem. Knowing what I know now of course…. This is a BIG MISTAKE! When I hear “I feel like I’m not important to you.” My response is “Oh honey, of course you are. I love you, why would you think such a thing?” Then she goes into this litany of things that make her feel neglected… putting me on the defensive and leaving me wonder what the hell she expects from me.

I don’t mean to be complaining about my case specifically, but I think the example gets to the heart of the male perspective on the issue. How am I supposed to make her feel how she wants to feel if A) I don’t know technically what it is that makes her feel that way B) I don’t know what I can and should do to make it better C) I honestly do not have a clue as to what she is expecting of me. Surely the feeling of neglect is the worst feeling a woman can get in a relationship, but to attach malice to it is making a bit of a leap I think.

Ok… clearly I’m just rambling here… but I guess I just wonder what can a guy do to turn the ship around. It seems to me that my W became indifferent far before I did… hence she had the A. I don’t think most husbands neglect their W’s out of cruelty… I think it is out of ignorance of what to do differently. And I know that dealing with my W… especially when she is indifferent… one is hard pressed to ever get any solutions. I guess what I’m saying here is it sure would have been nice if she would have just helped me to help her. I don’t know, what do you guys think? Am I alone here?

no, you're not alone. I agree 100%

Laura Lee <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> you made my day...I am sitting here laughing at the computor by myself...maybe we should all ask God if this is the tactic to take to whip our WS's in shape..God knows I have felt like taking a swing at him at times... ..maybe some brain rearrangement might take him out of the fog <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Hey there D2IA... good to hear from you. I couldn't remember what you changed your name to... from Solon that is. I just read your post on that other thread, glad to hear things are going well for you and your kids. I sure as hell wish Minnesota was an "at fault" state!!! I think "no fault" is going to be the demise of marriage. It makes no sense to me why two people can get married (a legal contract mind you) and one of the parties can break all the terms of said contract, walk out on the entire deal, and pay ZERO CONSEQUENCES. And to make things worse, they get half of everything. What a crock. Why would anyone enter into this kind of contract...??????? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Things are going moderately well here. We are about to start a nice, thourogh custody evaluation that ought to last about 3 months. After that I anticipate an additional hearing or two then it should be over. I can't wait. I would give anyting for her to come home to us but it seems a foregone conclusion that she is gone. As such, I just want the fight over... both for me and the kids. Life goes on.

Anyway, good to hear from you. I'll have to let L&C know your lurking about. Weren't the three of us gonna get together at one time? What ever happened to that?

Take care and Good Luck!

<small>[ May 20, 2004, 12:01 PM: Message edited by: Want My Wife Back??? ]</small>

I am the WS. I can tell you I gave a million and one reasons why. The only thing I can do is think about where I was at when it all started.
I was tired of playing dress up for him. Tired of figuring out how I was going to feed the kids.
I was resentfull that he was staying late at work and not helping with anything. The only time I felt he wanted to be there was just to get some. I started hating him and wanting to feel loved again. What I did was wrong. I have been through hell for the decisions I have made and put my kids and him through the same.
I can only say that I love my H and am truly sorry for all that I have done. I wish him the best in life and I hope for the best for all of us involved.

Well, I wish you the best in your custody battle. It just amazes me how often these things happen...despite the fact that it is happening to me! You are right, no fault is damaging marriages, but the government is working on changing that...so I hear.

I have been so busy preparing for school and just working things out I have not had time to plan on us meeting. I'm still up for it though. The kids and I are going to Walt Disney World later in the summer, so other than that, I'm free.

Every time I see your story I am amazed. The guy next door. I don't see how you did it. Kudos to you.

Did what? Not kill him? The jury is still out on that... He and I have some unfinished business to attend to at a later date. I have my kids to worry about for now... but some day the score will be settled.

Ditto on the unfinished business WMWB???. I am looking forward to meeting OM. I plan on messing with him till it is absolutely not fun anymore. Paybacks are a b!tch.

Same here guys! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> although you already knew that WMWB

D2IA nice to see you ... when are you planning the Florida trip? Not a bad idea .. I could use a tan LOL what do u think WMWB?

Well... he is taking his kids, not sure he'd want a bunch of "women haters" following them around Disney.....


(...just kidding about the woman haters part ladies... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> )

You all are making me laugh with the unfinished business talk <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> It still crosses my mind today.

But can you imagine? I mean, it takes a..."special" person to have the nerve to be with someone elses wife, not to mention the wife having children. I cannot imagine myself doing it. I can maybe see falling in love with a woman and then finding out later that she is married and has kids. But as soon as I hear that the husband still loves his wife, wants to be a family, and I see the children, I'm outta there. Gone! I just cannot see myself being involved with a married woman with children. With ALL the beautiful single women in the world. What kind of loser would do that?

But get this. About a month ago, I get a letter in the mail, a letter without a return address. I open it and it's from him. This is what it says.

Solon,

You are not my enemy.
I do not hate you.
I have forgiven you.
I have always done what I was asked of me. Now it is finished.

signed (his name)

Now how crazy is that?!?! I get this letter on a Monday. On Saturday, my mom was in town visiting. We, me and my mom and the kids bump into my wife and this loser on the streets. Wow! So yeah, I don't know what that letter was about. But the part that got me was "I have forgiven you". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> For what!?!? You have forgiven me for sleeping with my wife? You have forgiven me for talking my wife into leaving me? you sick...see, I am about to start getting hot again <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />
Yeah, I think about unfinished business all too often.

Dude.... that p*ss's ME off!!!! "I forgive you"...????? Excuse me...?!?!?! Keep that letter handy for the court battle... if nothing else it goes to show proof of the A. Wow, that takes balls...what a maget.

You ask what kind of guy it takes... I think the lowest fo the low, only a low life cockroach peice of sh*t would go after another mans wife, another mans family. I always thought there was a sort fo unspoken code among men, especially men who have familes, that you just don't make moves on a guys wife... you don't ruin a guys family just becuase you want too, just to see if you can, or just because you want to nail his wife! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> !!!!!

So to answer the question... it takes a maget, a lowly, slithering, worthless nothing of a person...

There is most definately a score to settle, I'm not sure how or where or when.... but the score has to be settled. Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth... I'm thinking castration, in the most humiliating and painful way imaginable. That would even the score for me.

<small>[ May 21, 2004, 09:54 AM: Message edited by: Want My Wife Back??? ]</small>

Hi Guys,

I hope y'all don't take me tooooooo seriously.

Just about the time women say they want to tame men... I hear all this caveman adrenaline talk... and I'm like, whoa. Guys. I like.

Opposites attract for some reason only the man upstairs knows or can comprehend.

I loved my XH. I'd be married to him today if he hadn't completely hit bottom.

I don't know WHY we can't understand each other... can't seem to get along... and, yet, there's this oh so strange attraction of male/female, Mars/Venus dimensions!!

I think I'll defer to Dr. Harley. I just got a phaeremone rush hearing you guys wanna beat up those OM's.

Did I tell you I really liked a boxer? lol

Laura