Ouuucch...you open up once again, and she turns her back to you....I don't know how you can continue this and let her treat you like she does. I mean, if she was sincere or serious about your M, wouldn't she react differently? I mean, do you really think she is so scared to talk to you about your R? I think she believes she can control you, you are like a little puppet and she holds the strings.

My gut tells me she is still with the OM..she continues to lie to you to cover it up...and string you along because she knows you have always been there...and probably will....I don't think she respects you as a man.

If you are not ready to end this, you will continue to be hurt as she does not seem to care...so, my advice is to begin caring for you and let her see the new Harry....decide for yourself the best course of action and MOVE ON WITH YOUR LIFE!!!!

As always, you are the Captain....which way shall we steer, dear sir???

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Nature:
<strong> My gut tells me she is still with the OM..she continues to lie to you to cover it up...and string you along because she knows you have always been there...and probably will....I don't think she respects you as a man.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am really really really thinking you may be right. If she had stopped seeing the OM I think things would be different. She would act differently.

As far as the respect thing goes I feel she has none for me. Some of this is my fault. I do let her walk all over me. I am being her doormat. Who respects a doormat? I'm working on that and have started to hold to my guns on some things. It's hard when you have a giving nature to those you love. I don't think I've learned how to curb my giving nature, only to diminish my feelings of love.

The pathetic thing here is the other night she admitted she gives her cat more affection and attention than she does me.

How do I stop loving her? How do I kill the last feelings I have for her?

This is going to be hard, no doubt. Probably the beginning of the most difficult 4 weeks of your LIFE....because you still care....but you really need to step back away from this bubble called your M and R with her and get off the rollercoaster...and please read the following words one more time:

HOW CAN YOU SEE A CHEAT? THIS IS YOUR LIFE!! NO MORE WEAK MOMENTS.

The time of waffling is over....if she is sincere for your Love and You, she will show it over the next few weeks...you have been there for her, and I think she has gotten too used to you being there, she takes you for granted and does not respect you....you are no longer the man of mystery that she was attracted to.

I mean, like my frickin' WS, hardly any remorse was shown....sure, she said she was sorry, but not much more...well, I kept thinking of that, and look at what I was doing (always there, thinking of her, when will she call, buying gifts, dinnners, etc.). Like, hangin' on for every minute of attention from her, like it was a sign or something that she was back and faithful when there were so many signs she was not?

What the hell was I doing, waiting around for HER? She is the one who left the M, not me...I did not break my vow, she did....and I became angrier and angrier at ME, not her, for acting like I was.

Well, I set a line in the sand and swore I would never be lied to again...and when she crossed, THAT WAS IT! This occurred mid-May and I ended it that weekend...it helped to find out that towards the end of our "rebound" (early May), she started calling/seeing a guy local to where she was at this out of state internship. She met this guy last year, but this was only a platonic R but nonetheless she kept this from me. Her "real" EA/PA was with a M co-worker, 50 years old. I believe the physical A ended with the M guy late fall, but she never got over the emotional aspect and that is what prevented us from getting closer emotionally this past winter/spring. She mentioned to me the weekend we ended it "he is pursuing me, I have a plan to end it"...well, there you go! It never really was over..and now she starts seeing another guy! She was really a Queen Bee, with 2 or 3 guys buzzing around her...until recently, as we all have dumped her!!!

Game over for us...now, it's funny, there have been a few peeps from her regarding us and the D..I think she is having some doubts, because there is no more drama, she has no one to talk to, no more BUZZING...but look at the serious character flaws in her...and your W too! I mean, how could these people change without some serious IC let alone MC? Think how difficult your recovery (and mine, if there was one) would be?? The odds are stacked against us, these selfish idiots will again stray because they think IT IS ALL ABOUT THEM!!!! WRONG!!!! Basically unrepentant people who do not see the wrong in their ways...maybe they never will.

So, maybe put that boundary line up, and see what happens?

We only live once, you know what happened at 9-11, we all do, do not waste your precious time for someone who obviously does not appreciate you for YOU....there are other people out there, I now know this myself.

This website has been a great support for me. I know there are no guarantee's whether you can save your M or not...but I think it's time you put this behind you....you have done everything I think you can do. No more regrets.

File and move ahead, mourn for a time but realize what is ahead of you. Make the choice to move on...remember, as always, YOU CANNOT CHANGE SOMEBODY ELSE, YOU CAN ONLY CHANGE YOUR LIFE CIRCUMSTANCES.

Look at the cat comment, what does that tell you???

If you think you can tolerate her behavior, keep on being the same predictable guy...but like I mentioned last week, begin the 180, NOW!! Shake her up for you and focus on you.

My W told me a few months ago that I was "too predictable". Well, no more baby, Nature is out playin' and movin' on and it feels good! I don't call her at all, she calls me at least 3 times a week and of course there is nothing to talk about except the D paperwork, L, our home, etc...she is now asking about my weekend, how I am, etc...I give short, one word responses, no more Mr. Nice Guy for you babe. She is quickly finding out that her crap stinks too, as the new guy dumped her.

One day at a time, that is all you can take...but get off the rollercoaster ride, it is killing you!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Nature:
<strong> I know there are no guarantee's whether you can save your M or not...but I think it's time you put this behind you....you have done everything I think you can do. No more regrets.

File and move ahead, mourn for a time but realize what is ahead of you. Make the choice to move on...remember, as always, YOU CANNOT CHANGE SOMEBODY ELSE, YOU CAN ONLY CHANGE YOUR LIFE CIRCUMSTANCES.

One day at a time, that is all you can take...but get off the rollercoaster ride, it is killing you! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nature,

There's the rub. Have I done all that I can and have I done it well enough? My integrity demands that I make sure there is no stone left unturned. I know she's taken advantage of this and it's possible that it's enabled her affair to continue.

As far as filing, thats done. The gun is loaded and cocked. She's signed the papers and there is nothing at all she can do to stop this. She's signed a waiver that basically says she gives up all rights to further notification and the final decree has been signed as well. All that's needed right now is for a judge to sign. According to my lawyer this will take no more than 5 days from the day I give the go ahead.

Why has my hand stayed at this point? Crap, I don't know. I really don't know and that's bugging me to no ends.

I think one day I will wake up and just do it and never look back. Unless..... oh never mind...wishful thinking

Have you really done all you could do? Have you tried what CJ suggested? Considering how she was the BS, she seems to be more neutral to your situation. Given any person put in this situation, it's understandable to be bitter. You just have to find deep in your heart what you really want. As this is your life -- not everyone else's on this board.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by TurningPages:
<strong> Have you really done all you could do? Have you tried what CJ suggested? Considering how she was the BS, she seems to be more neutral to your situation. Given any person put in this situation, it's understandable to be bitter. You just have to find deep in your heart what you really want. As this is your life -- not everyone else's on this board.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">TP:

Have I tried just going out with her for fun?

Yes I have. We've gone to movies, out to dinner, movies in and stuff like that. No relationship talk just hanging out. Some of the times it's great, other's it's obvious that her mind is somewhere else (probably with OM). The times we did usually ended up with her asking me to stay the night.

Funny thing about that. If your dating a girl and they ask to to stay the night it usually implies something, but not with my WW. With her she just wants to sleep. But sometimes she does hold me before she falls asleep and that does feel grand. Then she rolls over and falls asleep and I'm left to face my demons. Sometimes I try and stick it out and try and hold her, but she pushes me away.

Anyway the date thing has been done. There have been good times, almost like some of the better old times. This usually throws me for a loop and I get comfortable with it until she pushes me away or she disconnets and that brings back all the pain/feelings of loss in spades.

The suggestions, opinions and insights that others give me here help me as I'm pretty much out of ideas. Suffice to say everything I've done has turned to dust as here I sit alone in my apt while my WW is who knows where with who knows who.

Keep up with the suggestions though... you might happen across the key to unlock this whole mess.

Today I've lost my footing. Hell that's an understatement if I've ever heard one.

WW called me last night and left a VM stating that she was sorry for ignoring me the other night when I came over and that she is under a huge amount of pressure from work. Also that she did get my email from the other night and she would reply.

So today I sent her an email stating that I understood she was under a lot of pressure from work and that she need not reply, that the email was only my thoughts and perceptions from Monday night.

She then sends me an email back in a very angry tone saying that I was putting even more pressure on her and that I was oblivious to her issues and needs.

While I was reading it she called me. At first she was subdued and then quickly switched to angry. She vented at me all her frustrations and that I needed to make a decision.

I asked her if she was issuing me an ultimatum and she said that right now I am holding all the cards. I can divorce her or move back home. She said she can't function with me holding the divorce over her head. It got heated so I hung up as I couldn't have that kind of dicussion in my office.

Basically she's tell me to poop or get off the pot.

I went outside and had a brief calming moment. Then I stepped outside my box.

She's right. This week I have held all the cards. I thought about what kind of stress that put her under and how unfair it was for me to drag this out. Then I thought how she must feel right now.

I called her back and we talked again, this time with a little less anger. She kept telling me how I feel and how I thought and what was on my mind. I realized that she was experiencing the same feelings I have been for the past ... who knows how long. I realized that we must compromise.

I sent her an email stating my revised position.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Question: What would you be willing to do for me to help me feel safe in order for me to move home? Please include at LEAST the following:

No Contact with {OM} is being kept in all aspects
Some actions to show me that your concerned for me and my happiness.

I will concede any and all expectations for sex for now and into the foreseeable future. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Seems that sex was a huge issue for her so I removed it completely.

A thought has invaded me and nags me. Why shouldn't I give this one more shot? I mean I do love her with all my heart, isn't she worth another chance? Something she said to me on the phone I think sent me a wake-up call. She's been waiting for me to come back and save her. I'm Harry, the White Knight. That's my job. It's always been my job. Maybe I've been on vacation too long. Maybe I need to mount my steed one more time and slay this dragon for my fair lady.

Have I been so blind as to not see that she needs this? Maybe I've taken this 'my needs' thing too far. I've always sacrificed for her.

I am so close right now to seeing that a lot of this division is my fault. My demands were unjust. I have been acting as selfish and self centered as I've claimed she was.

Reading this hurts....I can only imagine how you feel.

She shuts you out the other day...gets angry on the phone and blames you for "not rescuing her"?

What are you kidding?

How can she go from telling you 2 weeks ago she was in love with the OM, stringing you along, teasing you...and now she might want you back, no questions asked? How do you know it's over? Where are her actions proving this to you? What happened to the NC letter? She is the classic WS, wants it all, does not want to lose anything.

I personally could not do this and open myself up to being demolished again....but it's your call as always. I would need proof, her words are meaningless at this point of your M. How sincere do you think she is? She is sucking the marrow out of your bones!!!

I don't know Harry - I am not thinking that you have been selfish. I still don't see how she has given anything towards the R. I certainly agree with the idea that the WS goes through withdrawls and can not be expected to meet your needs right away. But if you move back in right now, I don't see any signs that she is going to anything different from what she has done these past 6 months. Sounds to me like you are totally caving in. I know the sound - having caved in many times myself.
Are you able to sit back and look at this whole situation and say "If my best friend was telling me this same story, I would tell him to ____"
yes, I am sure this whole week has been stressful for her, with the D looming ahead of her. But WTF did she think was going to happen when she had an affair, continued contact, and hell, even told you just 2 weeks ago that she was in love with him? What is the end of the story supposed to be? I know, I know, the WS does not think that all through, doesn't think about the consequences of their actions. But I don't understand how she can think it is ok to:
1. Have an A
2. continue contact with OM, knowing that Harry is hurting because of it.
3. Tell Harry that she loves OM
4. Do nothing to help H out with his own emotional needs, and in fact expect him to sleep in the same bed, hold her, and ask for NOTHING in return. Furthermore, if H occasionally does anything that even seems like he is interested in SF she gets mad.
5. And, finally, tell him that she doesn't want to get a D but she will not even talk about what steps she is going to take to repair the M until you move back.
Meanwhile, she blames you for making her life stressfull????

Harry - do you actually love all of this stuff?? Truly?? Or -- do you just love the woman you THINK she could be? The relationship you DREAMED of having??
Re-read CJ's posts. It sure sounds like you are trying to save your W just like she tried to save her H - but how many times can you save her? Is that really a M?

Harry-

You really have to do some soul searching here because none of us are you and therefore nobody but you can tell you what to do. It doesn't matter if a million people tell you to save your marriage or divorce your wife, you have to live with your decision and therefore are the one who must decide. Granted, your wife has definately given you ample reasons to divorce her, but if it isn't what you want why do it.

You seem to be taking a deep look at yourself and that is good. Seeing that this isn't a one sided issue is a big step and will help you no matter what you decide. Also realize that there is no easy choice as both are extremely difficult.

If you divorce you will have to rebuild your life without her. In my case this was a Godsend, but my XH was an alcoholic and there were issues far beyond the affair.

You seem to still love your wife. You wouldn't be saying, "What if?" if you didn't. However, if you choose to work on your marriage you will have a lot of work to do and a lot of trust to rebuild. Only you know if you are capable of this.

Something you might want to consider is if you want your marriage or the dream of what your marriage could be. Often times upon looking at that people realize that what they are really struggling to hold onto is the dream and not the reality.

Think everything through and stick to the moral high ground. Don't do anything in anger or to be vindictive. In the end no matter what you choose if you have played fair you will come out ahead.

Take care and God bless!
K

All,

There is no question I still love my WW. If I didn't I would be long gone. As far as me acting selfishly I think I need to qualify that statement. What I've been doing is focusing on my needs too much without at first showing her that I am willing to work on her's. I think I need to show her that this will not turn into a completely one sided relationship. Granted it has been a onesided relationship for a long time, but I think she's afraid that the pendulum will swing as far my way as it was her's.

As far as the caving in goes... well I'm not completely caved (just some). I am going to let her iniate all Relationship talks and really try hard at my curbing my expectations. I am going to stop making demands and try and work within a POJA.

I think what I'm doing is not so much caving in as getting with the program and being decent.


UPDATE:

After work last night I went over to the house. WW was there and DD was at work. She didn't expect to see me and I think was expecting me to start up with the relationship talk (she never responded to my last email. I guess she's thinking it over, but I never mentioned it). She was having dinner (I was starving having not eaten at all that day) and I laid on the couch till she was done. She said she was going to do some yardwork and I asked if she would like some help. She replied that she wasn't expecting any help and that's all that she had planned to do that night. I got up and changed clothes and mowed and edged the yard while she assisted. After we gave the dogs a bath. During most of this she was very distant and aloof, but I never made any comment just continued on. After I took a shower and we played on the xbox together. She kinda started to warm up, but there was still a chill in the air.

DD came home and we all chatted for a bit and at 1:00am I left (with a hug and small kiss from WW under my belt). She never asked me to spend the night, weird but under the circumstances of yesterday I guess expected.

I don't have a clue as to how this will play out, but I feel that it's worth a shot. I'm hoping that WW will reply to my email this weekend so we have something to work against.

Not sure this is progress, but I hope she see's that I'm trying again and will follow my lead.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Something you might want to consider is if you want your marriage or the dream of what your marriage could be. Often times upon looking at that people realize that what they are really struggling to hold onto is the dream and not the reality. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hummmm your saying I'm living a fantasy and am selling my soul to a dream. Maybe so. I hope not, but what kind of man would I be if I sold out my dreams and never tried to accomplish the impossible? Granted at the moment this doesn't seem quite impossible just extreemly difficult and trying.

Maybe I'm commiting the last of my love for her to this final leg. A last gamble. Betting the plane ticket home on a final spin of the wheel.

<small>[ July 24, 2004, 05:52 PM: Message edited by: HarryS ]</small>

Harry-

I simply meant that I do believe you should do everything in your power to save your marriage and I do believe that only you can decide when you have had enough. It is just that many of us get so caught up in saving our marriages that we start to idealize our spouse and overlook things in our quest to fix everything only to realize that what we are fighting so hard to fix isn't really what we think it is.

I also believe in following your dreams and fighting for what you believe in so give it your best shot.

I wish you the best no matter what you decide.

Take care and God bless!
K

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by still reeling:
<strong> Harry-

I simply meant that I do believe you should do everything in your power to save your marriage and I do believe that only you can decide when you have had enough. It is just that many of us get so caught up in saving our marriages that we start to idealize our spouse and overlook things in our quest to fix everything only to realize that what we are fighting so hard to fix isn't really what we think it is.

I also believe in following your dreams and fighting for what you believe in so give it your best shot.

I wish you the best no matter what you decide.

Take care and God bless!
K </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">SR:

Thanks for the kind words and support. To be honest I don't know if she'll ever get the feelings back for me and to some extent I feel like a hanger-on, but I have to give it time and the right kind of time.

UPDATE:

Ok, called her Saturday afternoon and asked if she'd like to hang out. She replied that she was busy and I didn't push, just said ok. Went up to the place DD works and hung out up there. Waited till she got off work and had some dinner with her and chatted for awhile. Then went to the house with her to play some xbox. WW called a bit later and said she was done and asked if I'd like to come over to the house. I told her I was already there. We all hung out and played some games. WW was still kinda chilly and distant, but still no comment from me. When I say chilly and distant I mean there is a total lack of closeness, zero affection, no looks, no glances, we just seem to cohabit the same room.

Well after a few hours I get up to leave cause DD and I are to go car shopping in the morning. WW asks me to stay the night and I put up a little resistence till WW takes my keys. Not much changes in bed. WW is still chilly, but does hold my hand for a few minutes. I struggle with sleep, but force myself to stay.

In the morning I ask WW is she would like to join us and she agrees. Spent the day looking at cars for DD and afterwards DD goes to work. WW and I play games for a bit then go up to DD work and play pool and have dinner. WW is still chilly and distant all day. I leave at 10:00 to come back here.

Here are my concern's.

Does WW think this weekend is progress? Is something on her mind that's keeping her distant and aloof? Maybe she's deciding that she really does want to trade me in on the newer model. I mean she diliberatly staying disengaged.

Hey! Look what I did! I am scuttling my own ship! As always I am my own worst enemy.

I just wish I had a window to her mind.

Where's CJ? She's a good sounding board! WoF? You too.... give me the female view here.

Wof5 is still trying to decide what color to paint her fingernails (and wishing that was truly the biggest problem she had in life)

One thing that comes to mind reading this last update is this: We all have a tendency to try to guess what the other person is thinking, and frankly I do not think we do a very good job of guessing it most of the time. Your post is full of that sort of guessing. I am not sure what suggestion I have - perhaps an email saying "I enjoyed spending time with you this weekend, was wondering if you enjoyed the weekend as well?"

I like the fact that the two of you play XBox together - sounds like a good way to make Harry=fun.

She did ask you to spend the night - a sign that she likes having you around. And you stayed - a sign that you are willing to meet her needs.

This sounds ike a good weekend.

What is worst case scenario for you at this point?(in regards to the divorce papers) How long can you hold onto the papers? What happens if you to continue to stall?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by womanoffaith5:
<strong> Wof5 is still trying to decide what color to paint her fingernails (and wishing that was truly the biggest problem she had in life)

One thing that comes to mind reading this last update is this: We all have a tendency to try to guess what the other person is thinking, and frankly I do not think we do a very good job of guessing it most of the time. Your post is full of that sort of guessing. I am not sure what suggestion I have - perhaps an email saying "I enjoyed spending time with you this weekend, was wondering if you enjoyed the weekend as well?"

I like the fact that the two of you play XBox together - sounds like a good way to make Harry=fun.

She did ask you to spend the night - a sign that she likes having you around. And you stayed - a sign that you are willing to meet her needs.

This sounds ike a good weekend.

What is worst case scenario for you at this point?(in regards to the divorce papers) How long can you hold onto the papers? What happens if you to continue to stall? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Easy question. Red. (note the period is bold)

Having me send an email to her saying that I enjoyed this weekend would send the wrong message. Yes I did enjoy being with her, but it could have been better if she actually acted like she was happy to have me there. There was a lot of bad feelings I had to curb as well as a constant check on my expectations. The only time there was any contact was when I was leaving.


I've got 18 months to finalize these papers before they go stale. Worst case as far as the papers? She ask's me to burn them and then I find out she's still with OM.

Perhaps you could try a 180 - you could paint your toenails red, and wear a Seattle Mariners ball cap............

lol, your posting on the wrong thread <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

BTW she still hasn't responded to my email. I guess she's testing my patience.

Harry,

You are a hard man to keep up with! I want to give you a quick review of your week last week, and then I want to talk to ya about it:

Sun. 7/18--HS basically said: "I'M DONE! I'm going to the lawyer tomorrow!!!" but then went out to dinner with DD and played pool.

Mon. 7/19--WW said: "Don't do it HS; don't ask why." HS did not talk to lawyer. WW shows up at HS's door at nite. They spoke of her #1 need (move home) and his #1 need (commit to ONLY me-actions). HS thinks she's gonna try to use SF to get him to not D--WW says "no SF"--everyone gets offended and they fight. She leaves and calls and the fight continues. All are hurt.

Tues. 7/20--HS staying in NC because he's hurt.

Wed. 7/21--Lots of writing on MB and some good thinking; hear's other p.o.v. from TurningPages. HS sends WW email about how hurt he was on Monday.

Thur. 7/22--WW has no reaction to Mon's hurts. HS is angry, writes about BS's getting restitution, and claims he has "tried dating" and it doesn't work. WW calls at nite and apologizes for not responding to email, but she's under a lot of pressure.

Fri. 7/23--HS says he has lost his footing. Sent WW an email; she responds with some anger saying "You're putting me under even more pressure!! You hold all the cards!! I can't stand having a D held over my head!!" Heated--hang up. HS sends email that says "What are you willing to do to: show me NC with OM; show me you care about my happiness? No SF in the foreseeable future." HS goes to WW's house. No R talk. Mowed and washed dogs. Played Xbox.

Sat. 7/24--WW is busy and can't hang out. HS goes to DD's work and has dinner. Went home with DD and played Xbox. Then played Xbox with WW too but she was "chilly." She asks if HS would stay the nite. They sleep in same bed but HS says she's "chilly."

Sun. 7/25--All 3 go car shopping with DD. HS and WW play Xbox a bit. They go to DD's work and have dinner and play pool.

Is that very, very basically your week last week Harry? What do you observe from that quick summary? As you review your week and your own actions, are you satisfied with how you acted? Did you consistently send the message that you wanted to send? Were you the man that you wanted to be--or have the potential to be? Did you come across as peaceful and safe and dependable?

The reason I'm asking you these questions is to make you think about YOURSELF, Harry, and not your WW. Let her think about her. Right now, look at the way you are behaving, how you are acting, the decisions you are making... Are they consistent? -OR- Would you say that your behavior is irratic and inconsistent and confusing?

In my own humble opinion, I look at that week taking a step back and being objective and think WTF??? It's so confusing! You hate her...you love her...you want her to act committed to you but your actions aren't committed to her...you want her to care that you were hurt on Monday but you mention no care whether she was hurt on Monday...you expect SF but take it off the table but that she's acting "cold" if she doesn't act frisky, but if she acts frisky she's leading you on and you want SF...you want her to repent and repair but you don't mention how YOU will repent and repair...you say you are going to stay dark or NC and then go to the house...you say it's all light and no R talks but then feel disconnected when she ACTS light and no R talks...

OY!!

My friend, I do not point out these inconsistencies to you in order to make you feel bad or guilty or anything. I point them out to you to let you know that YOU are all over the board and yet expecting her to be consistent in word and deed. My very, very, very strong recommendation to you would be to THINK. You need to take a little time by yourself for yourself and figure out what you want. What do you want, Harry?? Not what do you want her to do, what kind of man do YOU want to be?

My guess would be that you want to reconcile your marriage and so does your WW. My guess would be that you want to be loving and kind and thoughtful and consistent and safe. But that is NOT what you are doing right now. You are all over with your words and your actions!! And in many ways, your actions indicate that you are addicted to your WW and being in contact with her...because when it makes NO SENSE to do so, you go over to the house. It's kinda similar to a betrayal bond--which is when a person has an emotional bond with the person who betrays them.

So, Harry, THINK. If you want, tell your WW very nicely, "I am going to take a night off tonight at my own place and do some thinking. I want to try to get my head on straight and start acting consistently." Then, take the time, tonight or tomorrow night, be by yourself, feel the pain of being alone and get through it, and THINK.

If you really want a divorce and if you really are done trying and if you really do not trust her and can not conceive of the idea of ever trusting her...then make your decision, and start matching your actions and your words! Go to the lawyer, turn in the documents, stop calling her, stop going over and expecting her to meet your needs, and BE DONE. Be angry that she cheated, feel the pain of being alone and the withdrawal of NC with your EX-spouse, and think how badly she has betrayed you. But be CONSISTENT.

On the other hand, if you want to reconcile and you are not done trying and you want to trust her and you could conceive of maybe one day trusting her again...then make your decision and make your actions match your words! Go to marriage coaching for 1/2 at a time--or email coaching as much as you want but via email...reach some agreements with her...make a plan SHE can do and YOU can do...burn the documents...take SF off the table for now so that you don't expect it and she doesn't feel like your sex object...care for her enough to notice that SHE was hurt on Monday too...try something NEW rather than just saying, "I tried that and it didn't work"--dinner and pool and Xbox are nice, but when was the last time you raced go-carts?? or played mini-golf?? or went to a thing SHE likes?? or did a comedy show or kareoke??

My point here is that you are wanting your WW to do things that you yourself are not doing. You want her to commit to you to and show you by her actions that she is concerned for your happiness. Have you committed to her and shown her by your actions that you are concerned for her happiness? You want her to take a leap of faith and open up her whole life and heart to you so you can trust her again, but have you taken a leap of faith for her and opened up your whole life an heart to her so she can trust you again? You want her to be willing to hear what you need to repair this relationship and make some kind of move toward that need, but are you willing to hear what she needs to repair this relationship and make some kind of move toward that need??

And one last thing...on Saturday and Sunday you were over at the house and said she was "chilly". Harry...I'm wondering, what did you do to melt the ice? I mean, did you not say that you wanted things to be light, no pressure, and easy--and then kind of complain when she wasn't emotionally deep, intimately connected, and kept the physical to just a little in bed?? It's like you say one thing and mean another! If you want things to be light and no pressure and easy, then there isn't going to be a deep, emotional, intimate connection--cuz that's heavy, and risky and hard!!

Soooo...I suggest if you are going to be upset that there isn't a deep, emotional, intimate connection, that you SAY THAT!! Don't say one thing and then act all tiffy if that's what happens. As an example, it might work if you said, "WW, I miss that feeling of being connected to you, and while my head understands that thre is a distance between us now, my heart misses it. Could you please take one minute--literally 60 seconds--and give me a long hug and tell me that you miss being connected to me too? It would mean a lot to me if you could do that. And after 60 seconds, I will accept that gift and then I won't be hurt if you don't offer more. I'm learning how to do that."

See how that is SOOOOOO much more honest?? And give her the freedom and safety to do the same to you: "Harry, I miss snuggling with you in bed and holding feet under the covers, but every time I let you hold me a little, you get all hot and messed up about SF and I just want you to hold me and enjoy feeling my heartbeat! Are you able to just hold me and enjoy the gift of spooning and holding feet without turning it into a disappointment that we didn't SF??"

Harry, I think you need to decide what you want, what kind of man you want to be, and what you are willing to do--and then make your actions match your words.

((((((((((Harry)))))))))))


CJ

<small>[ July 26, 2004, 07:38 PM: Message edited by: FaithfulNewCJ ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Is that very, very basically your week last week Harry? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Uh, yup. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What do you observe from that quick summary? As you review your week and your own actions, are you satisfied with how you acted? Did you consistently send the message that you wanted to send? Were you the man that you wanted to be--or have the potential to be? Did you come across as peaceful and safe and dependable? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok look at it from my point of view. Uh, nevermind. Well when you put it all together like that it looks stupid. It looks like I'm still a doormat. An angry doormat, but still a doormat.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The reason I'm asking you these questions is to make you think about YOURSELF, Harry, and not your WW. Let her think about her. Right now, look at the way you are behaving, how you are acting, the decisions you are making... Are they consistent? -OR- Would you say that your behavior is irratic and inconsistent and confusing? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">yes, at the least I would say that. And more I would say that her actions are a lot more consistent than mine.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You need to take a little time by yourself for yourself and figure out what you want. What do you want, Harry?? Not what do you want her to do, what kind of man do YOU want to be? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Time? I don't need the time for that. I know. I know what kind of man I want to be and when I'm not going insane I can usually be that man. I look to my hero's and say I want to be like them. My #2 John Wayne, rugged, no nonsense. A solid man with character and integrity. My #3 Bob Hope, compassionate caring and light hearted. Had ideals and vision tempered with quick wit and humor. And last, but by no means least my #1. A man that stands tall in the face of adversity, honest to a fault and tried and true principals. He dedicated his life to providing for his family and stood always by his wife. I man I don't think I will ever fill his shoes, but I endevor to try. My Dad.

These 3 men embody the traits that I admire the most in a man and have tried to measure myself against.

Now comes your question.... how am I doing? Overall in the big scheme of things I feel I'm making progress. Like those 3 men I have character traits that are not all that desireable and I try and correct those as well as promote the good ones.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My guess would be that you want to reconcile your marriage and so does your WW. My guess would be that you want to be loving and kind and thoughtful and consistent and safe. But that is NOT what you are doing right now. You are all over with your words and your actions!! And in many ways, your actions indicate that you are addicted to your WW and being in contact with her...because when it makes NO SENSE to do so, you go over to the house. It's kinda similar to a betrayal bond--which is when a person has an emotional bond with the person who betrays them. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I take it this is not a good thing. Your comment about being addicted to my WW I think is probably very true. I thought husbands and wives were supposed to be addicted to one another. There are times I miss her so much (like and addiction craving). Most of the time I miss how she used to be. Like I'm addicted to a drug that's no longer available, so I find another drug to become addicted to from the same source. Right now the drug is pain.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Choice#1 If you really want a divorce.....

Choice #2 On the other hand, if you want to reconcile ....</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'll take what's behind curtain #2, uh... no #1....no make that #2 Monte.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My point here is that you are wanting your WW to do things that you yourself are not doing. You want her to commit to you to and show you by her actions that she is concerned for your happiness. Have you committed to her and shown her by your actions that you are concerned for her happiness? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I thought that was what I was doing. She said to stop the R talks and stay out of her face. She said she just wanted to hang out and be relaxed. I was trying to give her what she wanted.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You want her to take a leap of faith and open up her whole life and heart to you so you can trust her again, but have you taken a leap of faith for her and opened up your whole life an heart to her so she can trust you again? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Trust me? If we were on a level playing field here I would know better how to respond here. But we're not. She ripped my heart out and left me empty and alone. I think that tilts the field a bit don't you? After all aren't I the BETRAYED spouse? Shouldn't she be the one that proves to me that she wants this to work before I recommit?

You describe a very scary place here for me CJ. I'm unsure I can do this without something from her and not just smoke and mirrors.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You want her to be willing to hear what you need to repair this relationship and make some kind of move toward that need, but are you willing to hear what she needs to repair this relationship and make some kind of move toward that need?? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">By all means yes. I am willing to hear it. I wish she would tell me other than a vague reference to emotionally reconnecting.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Soooo...I suggest if you are going to be upset that there isn't a deep, emotional, intimate connection, that you SAY THAT!! Don't say one thing and then act all tiffy if that's what happens. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think I acted tiffy. Sure I came on here and vented my frustrations, but my motivation on keeping things lite and easy when I was with her was to make her happy.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Harry, I think you need to decide what you want, what kind of man you want to be, and what you are willing to do--and then make your actions match your words. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know what I want, I know how I want to be..... and even what I'm willing to do and more importantly what I don't think I can do.

One last thing on your post...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If you want things to be light and no pressure and easy, then there isn't going to be a deep, emotional, intimate connection--cuz that's heavy, and risky and hard!! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I want the second one. I'm not sure I can keep light and easy up. I need the second part now, then I can do the light and easy thing.

As far as coaching goes, I'm pretty sure I'm all over that. I need help with a plan. How do I get WW to buy off on it?

Harry,

CJ just hit the nail on the head in my opinion. You need to settle down and make some decisions and then you need to decide on a plan of action for you that is consistent with those decisions and the input you have from your W.

You will not "get" her to buy into any plan. She will decide what she wants in her own time, you have no control over her. Just yourself.

By the way, nice choice on the hero's. I would buy off on those myself. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> However you said something I would like you to reflect on as you consider CJ's observations and advice further.

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Trust me? If we were on a level playing field here I would know better how to respond here. But we're not. She ripped my heart out and left me empty and alone. I think that tilts the field a bit don't you? After all aren't I the BETRAYED spouse? Shouldn't she be the one that proves to me that she wants this to work before I recommit?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Here is the hardest thing for you to consider. You are NOT the victim here. In fact your W thinks SHE is the victim, right?? You need to step back and be more like your hero's here. No nonsense, compassionate, but able to make a hard call when it is necessary. What she should or shouldn't do, is of no matter. What matters is what she does and how you react. I know this is hard, and I know there is a sense of entitlement because she did leave you and cheat on you. But,you need to realize she felt entitled as well and look how well that is working for her.

You need to set your course of behavior consistent with your beliefs, your moral compass and your compassion. Then follow that course as CJ has so clearly pointed out. If your W decides to change course and join you, then you two have work to do, if she does not, then really you have no work to do, other than learn from this as much as you can.

Does this make sense?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You describe a very scary place here for me CJ. I'm unsure I can do this without something from her and not just smoke and mirrors. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What can you not do without her?? You set your own course, and use the attributes that you revere in your hero's to make that course consistent with your beliefs and hopes. It is not a scary place if you do this, it can get lonely that is for sure. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Harry, don't you see what CJ is showing you? It is within you to deal with this problem and it is up to your W to deal with her's.

I hope that something I have said helps.

God Bless,

JL