FHL4,

My STBXdaughter-in-law (28) has a MB mther-in-law, me. We have had this very conversation. More than once. She won't be dating until the divorce is final. As far as she is concerned she is married. My son (30), my OWN flesh and blood is now with a second OW since he left their family home almost 2 years ago.

My grandsons from that marriage are now 6 and 3 1/2. Have your children spent time with both of you together? That is another thing you should not do until you are in a committed relationship. Break two more hearts so soon if it doesn't work out?

This

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am actually starting to really love life and who I am/ who I am becoming. I have gone back to school full-time after being a SAHM for the past 5 years and I have my own dreams and goals not relating solely to my family for the first time in my life. I have started working out again regularly. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">then this

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And I am with a caring, loving, sensitive, wonderful man. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">then this

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yet deep down, I feel guilty, especially when I come here.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Welcome to Marriage Builders! I mean that with all of my heart!

Inner conflict means you are growing!

<small>[ September 08, 2004, 06:13 PM: Message edited by: Ragamuffin ]</small>

DeafJeff,
I have to say that it's amazing you still post here considering you are constantly beat to death by other posters. I'm a sensitive eprson, I want everyone to like me, and I want to "have it all together". That's why it took so long for me to gather the courage to talk about this here.
See, the thing is, I feel like I have come to the conclusion that I will not equate my actions with my STBXWH's, I know my intention, I know where my heart was. If I didn't desperately want to stay in a commited marriage to my STBXH, I would not have cried myself to sleep every night for months, or felt suicidal, or put myself out there for him only to be faced with the worst kind of rejection. I am not perfect. I am just as weak as all the other sinners I have passed judgment on in the past. And I can live with that. What I have a real hard time living with is this: Technically you and I have committed adultery. It in no way compares with the actions of our WS's. ...Adultery...I am an adulteress. Is that WHO I AM?
I don't even believe in sex before marriage. STBXWH and I dated for years and remained virgins until our wedding night. But now, I have been completely without self-control in that area. It is surreal to me, almost. A part of me I never knew existed. I think it has something to do with ENs being met that were never met before. OK, well, there may be some other things that have something to do with it too...but I won't go there... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
Maybe this is my awakening, to realize that I AM A SINNER, I AM HUMAN. I am not perfect and can't expect others to be either.
Still, I don't want to be continually committing adultery...I've definitely gotta do something about that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

faithhopelove04

The answer to all of your concerns lies in your user-name!

From Websters finest:

Faith: "fidelity to one's promises" (Promise; as in vow, as in marriage vow. I imagine that you took the "legality" of your marriage seriously when you first married. Shouldn't you do the same for your divorce?)

Hope: "To cherish a desire with the expectation of fulfillment" (Do you hope to be true to your values; your character?)

Love: No matter the definition; if it's there, it will wait a few more months!

faithhopelove04 :

Nobody on here desires to bust on you. Everyone wants to see you succeed. Your original question involved character and values; the two most important elements of your life. Most of us on this board are quite a bit older than you and have made our fair share of mistakes that we wish we hadn't made. The overriding message is that we want you to succeed emotionally and spiritually. The ultimate decision is in your hands and God will love you either way. He has already promised that. I for one would like for you to follow your heart, giving "character" and "value" whatever priority they have in your life. If you do that; you are being true to yourself.

FR

fhl04,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have to say that it's amazing you still post here considering you are constantly beat to death by other posters. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'll take that as a complement. Could be I'm too dense to know when to quit. Could be I'm not in a business that allows a lot of room for backing down and I don't know how.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm a sensitive eprson, I want everyone to like me, and I want to "have it all together". </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I ain't sensitive, don't care if anyone likes me (Okay I care about a select few in the overall big picture), and gave up any illusion of ever getting it all together long ago.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Still, I don't want to be continually committing adultery...I've definitely gotta do something about that. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I didn't mean too hurt you with that but its a fact and the truth is one of those things I don't know how to back down from. According to the American Heritage College Dictionary adultery is "voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a person other than the lawful spouse". I'm guilty, I did that. The catch is the "lawful spouse" part. Emotionally my divorce was over though and thats why I have no guilt. I am not/ will not encourage you or anyone else to do what I did. I won't encourage you to continue your "affair". If you feel guilt about it, maybe you should end it. What worked for me may not work for anyone else. My affair helped me move on and, contrary to what some others have been hammering at me, noone was hurt. Not my WxW, not my OW, not me. You have to do what works for you.

<small>[ September 08, 2004, 07:11 PM: Message edited by: deafjeff ]</small>

Fishracer, I know you're not trying to bust on me. I actually expected a lot worse!
DeafJeff, what?!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Sorry, left click finger works faster than brain. Try it now, I think i fixed it.

there we go, I got it now. It has definitely helped me to move on too. (Is that a duh kind of thing to say?) I feel like I was like a cold, dead hand wrapped around my marriage. I couldn't have pried it loose to save my life. And it was killing me. I needed to let go, but couldn't. Even once I decided I wanted to and needed to, I was paralyzed because I didn't feel I could ever love or be loved again. I didn't think anyone would want me. I felt used and discarded like an old piece of furniture. I didn't think a 25 year old single mother would be very attractive to anyone. I thought I was doomed to live my life as a lonely single mom.
Now I know different, in fact, I think my self-image is better now than it was before!
I actually kind of feel sorry for STBXWH now. I will have my Master's degree and an awesome career (hopefully!), I will have my children (whom he only sees every other weekend), I will have a fulfilling relationship, AND I will have 40% of his income! Ha - Who gets the last laugh there?
I tried to get him to think about all he was losing before we got to this point, but he just told me not to "threaten" him. I was not threatening, I was warning. Oh well...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It has definitely helped me to move on too. (Is that a duh kind of thing to say?) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not a duh thing at all. Some don't get it. Some think we are going to burn for all eternity. Some think we are "in the fog". And really you have to be careful about that last one. I have seen some of the same words you and I have written here from some the "real" WSs too. You have to stay in touch with reality.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I feel like I was like a cold, dead hand wrapped around my marriage. I couldn't have pried it loose to save my life. And it was killing me. I needed to let go, but couldn't. Even once I decided I wanted to and needed to, I was paralyzed because I didn't feel I could ever love or be loved again. I didn't think anyone would want me. I felt used and discarded like an old piece of furniture. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exactly. I told my shrink I felt like I had been run over by a train. He said I had been at the bottom of a train wreck.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Now I know different, in fact, I think my self-image is better now than it was before!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exactly again. Feels good to get better huh?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I will have my children (whom he only sees every other weekend) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> AND I will have 40% of his income! Ha - Who gets the last laugh there? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, now thats kinda cold from the view point of someone like me who was on dirty end of that stick. But I know what you mean and like you said, you warned him. I had no warning or choice. My WxW works in administration at our public school. She has gone to some of the teachers and told them how wonderful divorce is, you get every other weekend off and you get to collect all this child support. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. She has even encouraged some of them to do the same. She cheats, lies about it for years, cheats again and I get to pay her 25% of my paycheck for the right to see my kids 2 days out of 14. Thats kind of a sore spot.
Just be sure you aren't in the fog. Be upfront and honest with you new guy. You don't want to do to him what your WH did to you and vice versa. I'm trying to say you don't want to hurt him or him hurt you. Honesty helps prevent that.

I am sorry about that, it really isn't fair in cases like yours. I do feel TERRIBLE for BH's who get raked over the coals by their WW's. Especially losing the kids. In my case, I don't feel bad because he knew what he was doing and he chose it. He chose the single life and his obsession w/OW over his wife, kids AND money. Hope it's worth it!
It is a silver lining for me though. When I eventually re-marry, I'll have every-other weekend "off" to spend w/ my H, and a nice chunk of change to top it off. And I really don't feel guilty about that because I have to start over from scratch - go to school full time and raise two little ones alone. If it weren't for my parents I could never survive.
I guess maybe you could look on the bright side - it could be worse, at least it's 25% and not 40%! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>According to the American Heritage College Dictionary adultery is "voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a person other than the lawful spouse." I'm guilty, I did that. The catch is the "lawful spouse" part. Emotionally my divorce was over though and thats why I have no guilt. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's weird, imho. You're using two different rulers (standards) here to justify your actions (or maybe I'm missunderstanding you).....

LAWFUL ruler: Over when the requirements by law are fulfilled (i.e. divorce decree).

EMOTIONAL ruler: Over whenever you FEEL like it's over.

What are you saying? What is "the catch?"

<small>[ September 08, 2004, 08:41 PM: Message edited by: Ms.O ]</small>

All right, Faith, I'm not going to bother arguing about whether your words or actions are qualitatively any different from your STBX's - not because the argument couldn't be made (and I can see both sides), but because I don't think it's the most pertinent question. The issue is really who do you want to be? If you are feeling guilty about what you are doing, then it's not good for you to be doing it. Also, consider this: you started out saying that what bothers you is the "technicality" of still being married, but as it turns out you have relaxed your value system beyond what it would take to justify allowing yourself to become "emotionally attached" to a new man. In fact, you have also violated the no-sex-before-marriage standard.

I believe there is a connection: once we have taken the first step in betraying our values, it becomes much easier to take the next step. And the next step again. (You are now "unwilling" to let go of your new relationship, even if that's what God would ask you to do.) And the next step again, until after a while you no longer even concern yourself about what God thinks.

Faith, I can well believe that your new relationship has helped you "move on" - but it's important not just to "move on" but also to move in the right direction. Right now you can see a bright future for yourself, but you are not yet that woman you envision. By your own admission, you choose your new man's arms over God's arms, and until you can bring yourself to change that choice, you will be on shaky ground.

I believe that the wisest course would be to do as Ms.O suggests, and to cut off communication with your new man until your divorce is final. That is, at least until your divorce is final. Learn to rest in God's arms instead. Then, if it is God's will for your new relationship to grow, you will be able to do it in God's time and in God's way. Remember Psalm 54:11.

Faith, I don't make this recommendation lightly, and contrary to Jeff's implication my concern isn't about whether you are "in the fog" or whether you will "burn for all eternity." It's a matter of what's best for you.

Addressing some specifics...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by faithhopelove04:
<strong>It's ironic. First STBXWH caused me so much pain by WANTING to divorce me, now WANTING the divorce to be over is causing me pain. It just is horrible how much limbo we have to go through, how much we have to put our lives on hold because of their selfishness.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">First, I know about the limbo - I've been there, and it was indeed horrible - but it doesn't mean we have to put our lives on hold.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>No, it was not my choice to end the M. What I meant was, IF he was still wanting to be with me, then I would be wrong for allowing my heart to be someone else's. And the next sentence meant should i try to change the fact that my heart is someone else, and if so, what's the point in the long run as far as what was our "marriage" goes.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think it's necessarily wrong to want the divorce to go through. Leading up to my divorce, there was nothing I wanted more than reconciliation with my wife. But, failing that, I desperately wanted the legal nonsense to end. The limbo wasn't doing anybody any good, and there was nothing I could do to bring about reconciliation.

As for your heart belonging to someone else, you can't choose your feelings directly. However, you can choose your actions and your attitudes. When I "fell in love" with a woman I couldn't "have," I made the choice to really love her - to desire what was best for her, even if what was best for her wasn't me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Somehow it seems more sick and degrading to me to be in a relationship like that than in the kind of relationship I'm in now. At least the person I'm with now WANTS to be with me, and isn't just using me and then throwing me out with the garbage.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It seems more sick and degrading because it is more sick and degrading.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Maybe this is my awakening, to realize that I AM A SINNER, I AM HUMAN. I am not perfect and can't expect others to be either.
Still, I don't want to be continually committing adultery...I've definitely gotta do something about that.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is one of the reasons why cutting off all communication with your boyfriend is best. As painful as it sounds, it's actually the easiest way!

That woman I "fell in love" with? She's a friend, and I see her pretty frequently. It hurts a little less when I don't see her for a while. Not much less, but a little.

I've read this thread with interest, as it has brought up several points that I have struggled with. First of all, Faith, I *completely* understand your struggle. When my ex H left me for my best friend and she left her husband, her husband and I (already friends) turned to each other for emotional support. I was pregnant with our third child and felt strongly about fighting to the death for my marriage, and my friendship with OW's husband never got in the way of that, but I remember feeling weird about our friendship that crossed into some 'what if' conversations occasionally. At that point he and I were both still married, and we knew we couldn't do anything physical. God intervened on a few occasions to make sure we stayed on the straight and narrow. (Yay God!) We justified it a bit, saying "Don't we deserve to be happy" until we realized we sounded just like *they* did, and we knew we had a higher standard to live up to. I'm so glad we didn't go where we shouldn't have, and I have God to thank for that, because in my case "the mind was willing but the flesh was weak!"

Fast forward to a bit over a year ago. Our divorces had been final for well over a year and we had stayed close and had been good support for each other over the hard times. We still flirted with the 'what ifs' but I was trying to hard to stay chaste and not bend to the world's urging to 'get the happiness I deserved' after the nightmare of the very public affair, etc. One night I broke all of my rules and God's rules by having sex outside of marriage with him. It was anti-climatic, (little joke there!) and I didn't feel good about it at all. We justified that we knew each other so well and deserved a chance for us, and blah blah blah. I actively made a choice that I knew was going against God. I let Him down and I felt a lot of guilt about it. And I feel God couldn't bless a relationship that had at its center me knowingly and willingly breaking a commandment. He and I have remained friends, but I think any chance of a Godly relationship has been ruined.

I've done a lot of thinking about this whole premarital sex thing, and it comes down to trust in God. I enjoy sex a great deal, am fairly pissed off that I am missing my sexual prime, and can't picture a serious, adult relationship that doesn't include a physical piece to it. But just because I can't picture it, doesn't mean it can't be there. God works in amazing ways, and who am I to say "That is a nice idea, God, but it doesn't really translate well into today's society, so I'm going to have to disobey you on that one."

I have backed off of dating until I know that I can face the physical temptation without caving in. Of course part of me expects to be handsomely rewarded for this taxing effort on my part, with an amazing Christian husband who is a fabulous lover and is perfect for me. But that isn't the point either. The point is that we need to follow God for the purpose of following him, and we need to actively make the right choices, even when they go against our biggest wants and hopes and dreams, in your case.

If I were in your shoes, I would write a very difficult but heartfelt letter to your man, explaining exactly where you are coming from and what you feel you need to do to preserve your relationship. In my mind, that would be abstaining from a sexual relationship until you are married and committing to taking a break until your divorce becomes final. I would do it for the right reasons and for a selfish one. The right reasons are obvious, and the selfish one would be so I would feel God's blessing on this relationship that I wanted so badly. Good luck. I am rooting for you!!!

fhl04,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am sorry about that, it really isn't fair in cases like yours. I do feel TERRIBLE for BH's who get raked over the coals by their WW's. Especially losing the kids. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No need to apologize. Some of us get screwed, some like your WH get what they asked for. Life isn't fair. Oh well.

Ms.O,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You're using two different rulers (standards) here to justify your actions (or maybe I'm missunderstanding you).....
LAWFUL ruler: Over when the requirements by law are fulfilled (i.e. divorce decree).
EMOTIONAL ruler: Over whenever you FEEL like it's over.
What are you saying? What is "the catch?"
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm saying I admit by the definition of adultery that I am guilty because of those 2 words "lawful spouse" because WxW and I were still legally married at the time. I am also saying that I do not feel guilt about it because neither my WxW or I were emotionally married anymore. It was over. WxW was not hurt but my actions, if you are indifferent you can't be hurt by something like that. I also think that there is a big difference between my adultery and hers. People were hurt by her actions, including the years of lies and deceit, that ultimately destroyed our marriage.

GDP,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Faith, I don't make this recommendation lightly, and contrary to Jeff's implication my concern isn't about whether you are "in the fog" or whether you will "burn for all eternity." It's a matter of what's best for you.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think I named names but we share the same concern.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by GnomeDePlume:
<strong> Faith, I don't make this recommendation lightly...It's a matter of what's best for you. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Amen and Amen! GnomeDePlume gave you lots of great information. I really think you should consider it seriously.

Great post, GDP!

Thank you, GnomedePlume and whoamInow for your thoughtful responses.

WhoamInow - He and I have remained friends, but I think any chance of a Godly relationship has been ruined.
This is a concept I have actually mused over quite a bit, but I don't think it's true. I don't think because you guys messed up once that you could NEVER have a Godly relationship. Unless you mean that now that you've crossed that line you think it would be too hard to be togtether and not cross it again. In that case, that is logical.

Right now, I am leaning towards setting up some serious boundaries so that we won't be "going there" anymore. That would definitely make me feel A LOT better, even possibly eliminating all the guilt. I suppose we could do that and take it from there - see if it feels any better. I just really don't know that I could cut off all contact, I am not convinced enough that it is necessary to do that.

I have given thought to the whole idea that you should wait a certain amount of time to heal, to "find out who you are", etc. I feel that if I were to break this off for those reasons I would only be doing it because others have said it, to be able to say I did it, not because I feel it is necessary. On my own, I have no feelings of "am I really ready" "could I get hurt again?" etc. I know me pretty well, and I know that I am much better off in a loving, healthy relationship with someone I love than I am on my own. I'm not ashamed of that, and I don't feel the need to be 100% self-sufficient or 100% happy being alone before I am not alone.

Anyway, I honestly do think that once the physical aspect is under control that I will feel a million times better. I will feel better to when STBXWH gets back in town Tuesday, because then things could possibly be over in the next couple weeks.

WhoamInow - I guess I've kind of given up on the whole idea of being rewarded for sexual purity. STBXWH waited till we got married, and my sex drive went to he** after the first six months when I got pregnant. It took 4 years to come back. I would lay in bed and cry because I would think, "this is so unfair - I held back for so long when I wanted it so bad, and now as soon as I can have it, I don't want it." It was like a cruel joke. A very cruel joke.

I am seriosly considering what you all have had to say. Like I said before, my plan at the moment is to eliminate the sexual aspect of the relationship and see where that leads.

Thanks so much.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Mrs. O, I am not the " kind of person that would date while still married", maybe I am the kind of person who would date while separated, and I do think there is at least some difference. I also see a difference though between a separation where you're not sure what's going to happen and a separation in which you are literally in the middle of a divorce. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And you know the future? You know your husband will not change his mind? Are you still praying for him to do so? Have you waited the two years after divorce that have the greatest chance at reconciliation? (My brother-in-law's wife was so angry with him that she could even stand to talk to him the three months leading up to their divorce. They re-married 18 months later.) Are you healthy enough to even be a party to a romantic relationship right now? It does not look like it from your posts. Are you ready for the changes in that relationship that will come as you get healthy? Or do you want to stay in recovery forever? God can heal your hurt, but not if you don't listen to Him, or are looking to a person to heal you.

My experience was that my marriage sucked, and I cried to God for help. He actually gave me an answer, but it made no sense to me, so I ignored it. Three years later, unknown to me, my wife's affair started. Three years after THAT, she confessed to me and ended it. A year later, after doing a lot of growing and learning, God's answer made sense...but I had to learn the hard way, instead of trusting Him. The hard way was SOOOOOO.... much more painful.

What advice would you give to another poster who described a situation like yours? Do you really want to give your kids the model of "Do as I say, not as I do."?