X is now calling me more often because of children problems at her house. . .

she is not a good parent, didn't have good parenting examples, but her family are all teachers and believe that being a good school teacher equals being a good parent. . . (common thread - interacting with children)

anyway, she blows little things out of proportion, plays gender favorites with kids, and has lots of angry outburts, and refused to accept responsibility for her actions. . . . .

so tonight she calls up very upset, because her children are not listening to her. . . and she wants me to back her up. .

now, i am on the second back up topic in two weeks. . . the first topic was wearing bike helmets. . . the second was sleeping over against the rules of the school. . .

so my dilemma is, do i tell her why she is having a problem? (and no, there is no Love to bust so forget the no LB rules!) or do i just let them get into fights over there at her house?

its a problem that she has gotten herself into by being herself. .. .

just hate to see my kids treated that way, and I can't offer an alternative at the moment. . .

wiftty

I wouldn't talk but write to her, and ONLY what you think is the best for YOUR KIDS.
Not a la 'you do this and that's why the children behave like that', but 'the children need...', 'in that age of theirs, the best way is...', etc.
Also, attach some links to articles they state the same as you think...
Or 'please read this article, it's so interesting and I'm sure our children would love to have it that way'...

PS: I didn't think of 'LB rules' when writing 'the way' you say those things... but IMO it's the most productive way to reach her, that she accepts advise from "x"...
At least I do the same to my X... and it usually works (as much as he's capable of being persistent and consistent at all and in general <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

It never ends does it....

IMHO, I would suggest that you write to her and express that you also believe in teaching the children about rules for safety, consequences for rule breaking and that as a parent one tries to instil certain values in the children such as respect for parental decisions, even when the kids disagree, (which they can do, if expressed respectully.)
That you welcome working with her in instilling this value in your children so that incidents such as the ones she is having trouble with do not continue to present problems continualy in both your homes with different approaches to getting the same outcome for your children.
Hope this makes some sense and good luck.....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by WhenIfindthetime:
<strong>...so tonight she calls up very upset, because her children are not listening to her. . . and she wants me to back her up. . .</strong> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">By "back her up" does your XW actually mean "solve the problems for her so she can claim what a good parent she is and ignore your obvious contribution" or does she mean "the kids are saying they don't have to do this at your house and I would like us to have similar rules in our houses"?? It sounds to me like she can not control the children and she wants "dad" to step in and "MAKE" them listen to her...

wiftty, you are one of the smartest men I know, and I believe you know the answer to this. You can "back her up" all you want, but you can not solve her problems when she refuses to address them herself.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>now, i am on the second back up topic in two weeks. . . the first topic was wearing bike helmets. . . the second was sleeping over against the rules of the school. . .</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay, so let's be sure I am following here. Mom says the kids have to wear bike helmets, and the kids ignore her, so she calls you and asks you to back her up on the bike helmets. So while the kids are AT HER HOUSE you call them and tell them that they have to wear bike helmets. Is that about right??

Next, she says that sleeping over is against school rules and they can't do it, and the kids ignore her and put up a fuss, so she calls you and asks you to back her up on the sleep overs. So while the kids are AT HER HOUSE you are considering calling them and telling them that they can not sleep over because it's against school rules. Is that also about right??

GEEEEZ... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> What I see here is a mom who can not discipline her own children, so she calls you to do her dirty work for her!! AND...you're falling for it!!!

Let me be blunt, my old friend. You and your XW are DIVORCED now. What goes on in her house is HER RESPONSIBILITY whether she takes it or not, and if you step in with this "backing her up" business, you are enabling her to not have to deal with her own household. Imagine she lived in California right now (as a divorced woman, she is free to travel or move wherever she pleases). Her house is her business and her's to deal with, just as if she lived 1000 miles away from you.

Soooo...the first thing I would recommend that you reconsider is "backing her up"!! Stop it!! I'd suggest that you consider telling her that you would be happen to cooperate with enforcing that rule in YOUR house, but that while the kids are at HER house they are her responsibility.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>so my dilemma is, do i tell her why she is having a problem? (and no, there is no Love to bust so forget the no LB rules!) or do i just let them get into fights over there at her house?

just hate to see my kids treated that way, and I can't offer an alternative at the moment. . .
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are such a Thinker, it's cute. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> You have this analyzed right down to the very cause and effect. The only trouble is that she never asked you WHY she is having this problem and you aren't...she just asked you if you would do her dirty work for her! It is my humble opinion that if you were to tell her why she is having such arguments with the kids, that she would not be in a place to hear you anyway, because as you said, she avoids personal responsibility. If there is a problem, it must be someone else's problem--in her mind. Soooo...what would be the point of telling someone who is incapable of listening?

If I recall correctly, your children are entering that tweenage/pre-teen age, right? So a certain amount of eye-rolling and sighing and "argumentativeness" is to be expected developmentally; however, it sounds to me like not only is there appropriate tweenage/pre-teen angst going on, but also inappropriate disrespect toward their mother. I would suggest that if you were to talk to ANYONE about this, it would be your children. Furthermore,it would not be with the intent of explaining your whole cause/effect diagnoses here, Mr. Freud, but with the intent of modeling and demonstrating to your children what HEALTHY respect and HEALTHY disagreement looks like. Your XW...she's a goner, but your KIDS still have a chance. Teach THEM, not her.


CJ

P.S. BTW, yes, you let them get into fights over there at HER house because it is HER house. Do you expect her to solve problems you encounter at YOUR house? NO!! Because you are a mature adult!

<small>[ November 02, 2004, 01:41 AM: Message edited by: FaithfulNewCJ ]</small>

Wiftty, I concur with CJ....every single word!!!!

Remember that ol' "wait until your dad gets home"? Married or divorced a parent has to deal the issue at hand, when it happens, with no backup. Dad (or mom) may not be around for days, weeks, months depending how they may be employeed or for a vast array of reasons a parent may be away from home at the time the problem happens.

My H's ex did what your ex is trying to do for 13 years prior to our begining to date 4 years ago. Ragamuffin wasn't very popular with my H's ex after H and I POJA'd. There is no more backup to whatever was going on at her house. She would still like backup, although the kids are now 27, 26 and 23. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Print out CJ's response, it's a keeper!

I’m sorry, but I don’t completely agree with CJ. Yes, it is not your job to be the bad guy so that your XW can avoid the conflict. However, there are certain rules that you set for your children that apply wherever they are. The bike helmet and sleepover rules seem (to me) to be those kind of universale rules. Would it not be appropriate to remind your children that they are expected to obey your rules WHEREVER they are, and not simply when you are present? When you imply to them that they only need to obey your rules in your presence, you’re subtly undermining your ex-wife. That’s not to say that her parenting skills aren’t weak. I believe that they are. But making their behavior “her problem” when they’re at her house isn’t the answer. If your kids misbehave at the home of a friend, do you consider that your friend’s problem?

I apologize in advice if I’ve misconstrued part of this story. I’m in a bit of a hurry and don’t have time to reread all the posts.

I would get caller ID and talk with her only in emergencies. Do not answer her calls. Be very busy. She will have to handle the stuff herself. The kids will survive. Only a few years left to go.

no no no!

Children are already damaged by us making them the children of divorce.
The best way for them to survive D mentally healthy is a good co-parenting after divorce.

Our whatever-they-might-be feelings for X should NOT have to do anything with how we raise our children.

X is not X any more but CO-PARENT!

'Teaching' your X good parenting skills as much as possible you don't help X but YOUR CHILDREN!

No POJA in 2nd marriage should contain some restriction regarding the children either, at least not for a good parent. (I'm not talking about X's "needs" but the children's ones.)

There are some rules that my x and I both have. When the children don't comply, a conference has been held so that the child understands that both parents are on the same wavelength on the rule. There are times when it is ok to get the other parent to back you up. Not rescue you but back you up.

Let's clarify a few things here.

I am not advocating that wiftty give a snooty attitude of "that's your problem" to his XW or his own children. That would be immature--which wiftty is NOT!! Nor am I advocating that wiftty have certain rules at his house and then give his kids the excuses to not follow those rules at his XW's house. In fact, if I understand correctly, wiftty agrees with the rule that whenever the kids ride their bikes they should wear a helmet AND the rule that the kids can not go on a sleepover because it's against the school rules.

What I AM advocating is that he discontinue enabling his XW when she can not control her own home.

If wiftty's XW had some ability to take personal responsibility and was coming to him to say, "Hey, can we agree to some joint rules for the kids" I believe that would be healthy and admirable. Cooperative parenting in that sense would be the ideal, wouldn't it? Then, if the kids broke some of the joint rules of the two households, then it would make sense to hold a conference with the two parents, and both back each other up and co-parent.

But it is my understanding that due to wiftty's XW's inability to effectively deal with HER OWN ISSUES, that kind of co-parenting is not what she's after--she's requesting that HE enforce HER rules while the kids are at HER house!! OY! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> That is not "backing her up"--that really is rescuing her!!

In addition, it is my own humble personal opinion that one x-spouse can not "teach" another x-spouse...especially an X that is not willing to look at their own personal responsibility, an X that is not willing to ask for assistance, or an X that has personality disorders etc. that prevent them from being ABLE to learn! Facts could be presented... Ideas could be offered... but to TEACH an unwilling spouse how to be a parent is just not going to happen (IMHO).

Thus, I offer my advice. I suggest that wiftty teach his CHILDREN, not his XW. He can model to his children what respectful disagreement would look like. He can talk to them about their duty to obey and respect their mother even if they disagree with her. He can teach them healthy methods of expressing their anger or frustration rather than having tantrums. There are LOTS of healthy, good options for teaching his children how to deal with it more effectively--and few or NO options for changing his XW, her personality, or her behavior. Just don't be "sucked into" her attempt to manipulate and make him the "bad guy".


CJ

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">so tonight she calls up very upset, because her children are not listening to her. . . </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> just hate to see my kids treated that way... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Are they ever "our" kids?

I loathe my childs mother to the extent that I do not even refer to her as *XW*. I don't even want to be reminded of such an association such as that with her. That said, I am still a parent to "our" daughter. We put our differences aside when it comes to parenting issues and co-parent as best and as uniformly as we can.

I owe it to my child to be the best parent I can be and that includes maintaining some sense of uniformity in the parenting that occurs under two separate roofs. We try to "back up" each other (as you put it) as often as possible.

If "her" kids are led to believe that they don't have to abide by their mothers rules, how can you expect "your kids" to abide by your rules? You both should ultimately have a very similar set of rules.

Good co-parenting is your responsibility. You are actually teaching your children how to properly parent their own children one day.

<small>[ November 04, 2004, 07:15 PM: Message edited by: ba109 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You both should ultimately have a very similar set of rules. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">if we did, we woouldn't have gotten a divorce.

1) i treat each kid equally, age appropriately.
the X does not she shows extreme gender bias. . .

2) my rules are not the same as hers, because she has no rules. . . she only has reactions to being held responsible for something, and not getting her own way. . .

3) my rules are based upon trust and earning rewards with hard work, X's is what can you do for me at the moment?


My son told me that he hated me for awhile, for imposing rules upon him, then after a year of a new school, told me that i was bringing him up in the same way that all his friends are being brought up. . . kind of a revelation for him. . .

also he said that the best action that his sister could take would be to get away from her mom. . .

I prefer to do the "right" act of leadership, which is to make sure that my child understands the consequences and the reasons for why something is done. That way, he can learn how to behave intelligently and respectfully, without having to find a rule, and if there is no rule present, he can behave anyway he wants. . .

wiftty
wiftty

It's apparent that you each have vastly different parenting methods. That is unfortunate for your kids but it can still work.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> so my dilemma is, do i tell her why she is having a problem? (and no, there is no Love to bust so forget the no LB rules!) or do i just let them get into fights over there at her house?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would not get into criticizing her parenting methods nor would I let the kids believe that you are indifferent to them arguing with or disobeying thier mother. Perhaps you could just share with her some of the parenting methods that seem to work well for you.

No one wants to be told that they are a bad parent. I would like to think that your X is open to suggestions. If she wants you to back her up on certain things and these are things that you agree with as a parent then I don't see a problem.

Put your differences aside and parent together.

Ahh, so many replies to read, so hard to recall and refer to them all....

Face it, kids are kids, they're gonna do what they gotta to come out the winners for what they are seeking...

I agree, not a good idea to criticize the other parent's skills, that "makes the adults the kids..." you gotta keep your "pimp hand strong" so to speak...when dealing with the little darlings..he,he!

But don't let her use the "damsel in distress" act on you, unless of course "secretly" you kinda like the fact that she is so damn dependent on you...Guys dig that ****, c'mon...I know....Plus it' her way to keep pullin' you into her drama, maybe she just likes makin' your life just that much more misirable? I don't know...after all I don't know either of you 2 from a hole the wall, but I think my response sounds pretty good to me... Comments??

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't know...after all I don't know either of you 2 from a hole the wall, but I think my response sounds pretty good to me... Comments?? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">T.O. City girl

you're an idiot. . . please find another thread to type on