IT HURTS, This turned out to be probably the longest post I've ever posted, so be forewarned...I wanted to respond to your post on XScoundrel's thread because the similarities between your description of your M and mine were eerily similar. I started a new thread rather than hijacking his.

There were differences. Our sex life started out pretty wild. I sometimes went along with stuff I didn't feel good about. We didn't get married until he got clean and sober and after that he treated me much better than in the past. Sex had faded out of our relationshipship during the last stages of his drinking and using. I thought sobriety would make it better, but it didn't. It became as you described: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">just very basic. I always felt that he was inhibited so I didn't push him - yes, I was avoiding conflict - but you do that when you are under their emotional control.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I relate to feeling under his emotional control. While drinking and using he was a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, but after sobriety, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">he treated me good, we seemed to have fun together and he'd say he loved me and gifts became larger. Nothing I wanted was ever denied except sex. There was always an excuse not to..</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Another major similarity is that my H started hanging out with losers, drug abusing kids less than 1/2 his age who he seemed to be trying to impress. It made no sense to me because, like you </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My WH and I own a very profitable business in a small community - we are well liked professionals - why hang out w/losers when we have wonderful couples that we have built friendships with??? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And, after having at least EA's with two employees, he started PA with current MOW who was an employee! I ignored the rumors because I couldn't believe he'd pick such a loser! My WH had secretly started drinking again and </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">started to treat me w/so much disrespect - he totally changed. He began drinking more...[hanging out with his little gangster friends]...all the time, and then I caught him cheating ..he's at the point where he just doesn't care about anything or anyone anymore..except his OW...I truly believe [his "lower companions," as they're referred to in AA] brought out the worst in him - [my WH] is re-living [his] youth.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MOW, at 25, is still living hers... I also found out from his friends and his son, not the phone bill, that </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> WH has [in the past had] many women he's involved with. I don't know about all of them - but a few are well below his/our level. These aren't women you would take home to momma..
All are M women..Possibly some of them fill his EN and some are for SF only. Yet, each may empower him enough to stay checked out of our M.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My WH did tell me what his major EN is: To be admired and as he put it, "MOW shines for me." And he told me his SN and they are things I wouldn't do (suffice it to say, I'm no prude, but I wasn't interested in involving other individuals in our sex life!). </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He refuses MC or IC. He is beyond denial - he has justified his behaviour and will not look into his soul.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My WH actually participated in MC 3 times but each time, quit after 2-3 sessions, insisting the MC was on my "side," even when I'd prefaced the session with a request for the MC to listen to his issues since they were tearing us apart. He used his obsession with the idea that I was still in love with an old BF from over 20 years ago to take the focus off himself. He even agreed to IC a number of times, but never showed up. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I too hope that my WH hits bottom - I will be there to pick him up and help him. I've prayed many times - I've prayed many times - I know he's had some close calls with BH - but, apparently not close enough. And there are many, many OW - just waiting for an A w/ a professional man unknowing of what really lies within them. He is an expert con-man. I think with him it also goes back to some childhood issues </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I still hope, for WH's sake, he hits bottom with his drug/alcohol addictions and then gets help for ALL his problems, but I no longer hold out hope and I'm no longer there to pick him up and help him. I hung on for about 1.5 years and couldn't take anymore abuse. Also, he was bankrupting the business. I still pray for him, mostly for my own sake, to help me with letting go of the pain, anger, resentment, hurt, sadness, grief, etc. He had a problem with most recent BH, until they all started partying together (see what I mean by "loser"?). My WH is also an expert con-man. He's got his lawyer wrapped around his finger and he's had me supporting him for FOUR years now because I continue to run the business alone and to avoid paying spousal support, I agreed to pay him every two weeks, though at least for the last two years the $$ he gets is coming out of his share of our divorce settlement.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My future DOES DEPEND on what he chooses. I love this man with all my heart. I cannot move forward - I cannot leave him...Maybe this is God's wish for me...to teach me that I am stronger than I think - that I can carry a large burden (hope it doesn't kill me) should he file for divorce then I'd have to move on but I won't be the one to file. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think my WH would have ever filed for divorce either, but I filed, mostly in order to protect myself and the business by getting a restraining order to keep him away. Your words describe how I once felt. Plan B did actually make him come back once, but it was a short-lived, false recovery. The other benefit of Plan B, though, has been for me. It has helped me to slowly separate from him emotionally. During the time of no contact, about 2.5 years now, I've had Al-Anon and IC along with MB to help me reconnect with myself. I'm still struggling, and it took a long time before the pain of leaving was no longer greater than the pain of staying. It was probably easier for me to let go because even though WH continued to come to my house almost every day during the week (I guess he told MOW that he was going to work because he was unavailable, to me, on weeknights and weekends) his moving out and in with MOW was D'day for me (about four years ago). I doubt he's having as much fun now as he was then because I think you're right </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> if part of his high - is being M and cheating - he'd lose that part of the SF. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The only advice I have for you is to do whatever you can to work on YOU, whether IC and a 12-step program like me, or whatever works for you. Read all you can, pray for God's guidance, and do what you can for yourself - this is important however things work out with your marriage.

ItHurts

Like LetSTry, I am really responding to your post on my thread as well as her's here. I've heard guys in meeting talk about not having sex with their wives and at first it confused me. That was never my problem....quite the opposite....my wife wasn't nearly available as much as I wanted. Over time, I learned that these 2 very different ways of relating to wives can actually have a common root: fear of intimacy. Actually terror of intimacy is what I hear from men who won't have sex with their wives. Either that or resentment (men can also use sex manipulatively).

Also, like LetSTry, I would enourage you to not allow your wh to hold your future hostage. Yes there will always be a bond between you and that will always hurt to some extent probably but NO PERSON, no matter what bond we've had or do have with him or her, should have that kind of power over our lives. None of us can walk through this kind of pain alone. I echo the encouragement to reach out for others who can support you as you make steps to reclaim your life. Maybe wh will see and want to join you.

XScoundrel,

Even after all the time that's passed since my WH left, I appreciate hearing your explanation of SA: FEAR OF INTIMACY. My WH was interested in sex with me in the beginning and then after he'd left me almost 20 years later, but not when we ostensibly had a monogamous relationship, and marriage only made things worse. He also resented me, so that fits, too. And, maybe he resented me because he felt emotionally as well as financially dependent on me.

After investing so much time and energy in a troubled relationship, it's even harder to let go. I wanted so badly to prove, both to myself and to my friends and family that it wasn't a mistake. I hid the abuse, I refused to believe that he was unfaithful. The one thing I'd always counted on was that he'd never leave me, and I was wrong, even about that.

I had become a bit player in WH's movie. I did not have control of my own life. Even after he left, he didn't want to let go, not as long as he could still manipulate me. So I had to be the one to finally put an end to it. It was incredibly difficult. I couldn't detach and still maintain contact.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I would enourage you to not allow your wh to hold your future hostage. Yes there will always be a bond between you and that will always hurt to some extent probably but NO PERSON, no matter what bond we've had or do have with him or her, should have that kind of power over our lives. None of us can walk through this kind of pain alone. I echo the encouragement to reach out for others who can support you as you make steps to reclaim your life. Maybe wh will see and want to join you.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well said.

I cant hang around here too long. I have been so busy with school <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I just wanted to add..according to an old friend on the recovery board.


"being there when an addict hits bottom only results in getting yourself squashed."


I had a marriage much like yours. I was there during several of his long falls and almost died. My ex still hasnt hit bottom and I thank God that it will no longer affect me when he does.

I still go to Al-Anon, and I will pray for you guys too, we all need it. I am still not completely recovered, but doing GREAT!!!!! It has been a long journey.

Smiles,
Dawn

Thanks for starting this new thread - Yes Letstry our lives seem similar

I'm not 100% sure that he is a SA/EN addict - what I do know is:

He seems to prey on MOW (I became a WW when I met him)
Majority are beneath his/my level
He has many going at 1 time
He has sexual inhibitions/dysfunction w/me - I don't know what he's like w/them
He showers them w/attention to get them into bed
He's drinking alot more than ever
He's new best friend is a loser
Has poor relationship w/his children (from previous M) basically they are around for the $$$ and he spends time w/them in bars
Takes time off work just staring at the TV for days
Has told me his mother never really held him as a kid
Told him sex as dirty
Masturbates (not that there's anything wrong w/that)
Has Masturbated w/me sleeping next to him
Went for years acting like he loved me while he was probably involved w/MOW - though I don't know for sure how long it's been going on.
He is not close w/siblings nor w/parents - at least not like I am w/my family
That he cheated on this other XW/GF's
Use to be jealous when any man spoke to me

Tells me - He's the best thing I'll ever get..

He wants MY life..I have it easy

My family thinks we are better than everyone else
I think I'm better than everyone else

For a year he degraded me - blamed me for why he strayed, why he doesn't want sex w/me, then it was -
His A's were never about Love, nor about me..He's got a problem he needs to talk to someone - though, he NEVER does - only his loser friend who IMHO reinforces his bad behaviour

That he was never going to leave me

He shows some concern that I will find someone else and then I'll leave him (insecure)

So is he an addict??? Control Freak ? Narcissist? Deeply Depressed? Don Juan?? So insecure that he has to fill his stable w/many back-ups? Or did he just stop loving me and found that these MOW are what he needs in his life right now???

I wish I could break free from loving him..I will say I am alot stronger - I still want to work this out but in order to keep strong which we both know is to our benefit I must continue to emotionally detach from him. Loving/caring about him hurts - so when I close my eyes and shut him out - it doesn't hurt as much anymore. There are days I actually laugh at the MOW - because of their stupidity..in loving a married man, that cheats on them too..I hate him for being cruel and uncaring for being a man of such low character. WHat I find I'm missing the most is the things we use to do together, our friendships we built, our family get togethers, holidays vacations, etc. So it's getting that I don't miss HIM - I miss Things...

Xscoundrel - I never in 10 years of M said NO to my WH sexually..I was always available he just never made many advances. Maybe he truly is afraid of intimacy or used witholding of sex to keep me wanting him..I don't know - since I can never get him to open up or tell the truth - I'll probably never know..WHY..

What I do know - is this has to be a pattern w/him - he'll treat every women like this unless he gets help. He'll be the great guy till they challenge/confront him..Then the Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde comes out to confuse the hell out of you..

My WH DOES STILL HAVE POWER OVER ME..Maybe I have issues - maybe I'm co-dependant..I dont' know..I think WH is confused when he sees me stand up to him which happpens alot more now that I semi-know what I'm dealing with. Now that I know he can't/won't stop this behaviour..I have stopped fighting/begging him - those days are gone..

I still pray for rock bottom - but, there are days when I say - even if I pick him up -he'll do this to me again. He can't stop because he's so empty inside himself that he can't truly give of himself.

Remember - if I leave - I'll lose my portion of the business, half our assets, my job, benefits, new car, paid expenses, etc. I will never find a job making the $$ I do now..I don't have some wonderful guy/life just waiting for me around the bend - I would be back in the dreaded dating pool..YUCK..so why should I change my lifestyle just yet...Though, my attorney says I should be just fine financially - don't know if I'm ready for that risk yet. I figure let the money keep growing in the bank - more for me later..

My state is equitable distribution - what if he ends up w/ 70% and I get 30%..that could hurt my lifestyle - yes, I'm high maintenace and spoiled..

I don't want to come off as staying for the $$ - I'm not - but, I'm not stupid either...I did alot for this man over the years and I won't settle for walking away w/nothing after all I've been through..

I just wish I knew what was really wrong w/him/me...

ITHURTS, In Al-Anon we're reminded that we're not there to diagnose the alcoholic, we're there for ourselves. It's too easy to fall into the trap of trying to figure out what's wrong with them. Problem is, we can't fix them anyway. There's a website on narcissistic personality that has a lot of articles about the partner that I found helpful: http://groups.msn.com/NARCISSISTICPERSONALITYDISORDER/general.msnw. Also, someone recently posted a link to an interesting article called Identifying Losers in Relationships (click on Articles): http://www.drjoecarver.com/.

My WH was married when I met him at work. He insisted he was separated, that he and his wife worked separate shifts and stayed in the same house because they had a one-year old child. He was flirting with lots of women and they were flirting back. He sure wasn't acting married! I was the only one resisting, so of course, I was the one he pursued the hardest. I was very flattered by his intense interest and finally gave in. Needless to say, his wife didn't share his perception of their marriage. I'd never been pursued like this and he was so wonderful, blah, blah, blah. I was the OW. My friends were upset with me and my roommate, who owned the house where I was living, kicked me out. Solution, we moved in together! That was 22 years ago - so relationships with OW can last longer than we want to think, even though it eventually ended.

Meanwhile, his wife would call me to tell me that he was still returning home and having sex with her - of course WH vehemently denied this and said she was "crazy." They had a pretty violent relationship with lots of yelling, screaming, breaking things, and calling the cops. She was the one who finally filed for DV about 4 years later.

I don't believe now that WH was ever faithful. But, I ignored all the evidence (ex-wife's calls, calls from women "friends" who seemed to really resent me, the one-night stand the night I ran to a friend's house to get away from his abuse) because I just knew how much he loved me - remember how intensely he pursued me? It wasn't long before he became extremely verbally abusive to the point that I'd leave. Then he'd pursue me again, making lavish promises of stopping drinking, never yelling again, etc. because he loved me so much. This pattern repeated ad infinitum.

I started going to Al-Anon, on and off, in and out, mostly just to vent my frustrations, not so much to work on myself. I still believed that if he'd just stop drinking, everything would be wonderful again like in the beginning without the guilt of being an OW (since they were now divorced). It took several more years, getting more seriously involved in Al-Anon, and I finally was able to detach - he was in pretty bad shape by then, I was supporting him - and leave for good. Low and behold, he finally got sober and seemed to be really working his program. We were separated for about 6 months, but got back together. It was honeymoon time for about a year.

He stayed sober for a while, though, like the infidelity, I think he still "dabbled" with drugs without getting sucked back into addiction for many years. Sex became less and less frequent, always at my initiation, which was infrequent because it felt humiliating to have to ask for sex from my husband when he never reciprocated - he denied this when I pointed it out. I never refused him either.

His current relationship is a replica of his relationship with me in many ways. He even said MOW reminds him of me when we first got together (I did not feel complimented). The main similarity being that we both fell for his bull and were willing to break up a marriage (two in her case). He continued to see me after he was living with her and I became essentially the OW since he was lying to her about me, calling me "crazy" after I tried once to tell her what was going on (more nicely than 1st ex tried to tell me, I might add). Yet, it was so hard to detach. Another article on the Dr. Carver site about the Stockholm Syndrome explains the insanity of attachment to and disengagement from an abuser.

As for the business, have you spoken to a lawyer? I assumed I'd lose the business, but my WH's drinking made him incapable of running it and since I, Ms. Responsible, was taking care of business and sending him a check - didn't want to make him mad in case he might still decide to come back - why should he work? I now have a restraining order to keep him away. He's still getting 1/2 of everything and threatening to ask for spousal support! In other words, keep the business or not, you still own it - I don't know what the laws are where you live, here it's 50/50, no fault.

Someone once told me, probably my divorce atty., that in divorce, everyone feels like a loser. No matter what, you lose 1/2 of what you've got now. That's hard. I felt so wronged, I didn't think I should have to lose as much as I have. Besides, all WH's share will go to drugs and alcohol, I've supported him and MOW for 4 years, he's probably getting money from Social Security, and MOW's daughter is part of Indian tribe (through her dad) that just built a casino, so they may be cashing in big time. So what?! All that doesn't concern me. Resentments only hurt me not him.

I've had to move out of our dream home on 67 acres with pool, barns, riding arena, panoramic mt. views... to live in a trailer with a broken heater and no water (hoses are frozen today), running our business alone doing both his job and mine. But, I'm getting free of his influence. It's such a relief. I compromised my values to be with him, which only made me feel more committed to making it work. My life is my own again. I also still miss the family, the fun we had together, the the vacations, holidays, etc., and the belief that our love could survive anything. But I've finally accepted it's over. A part of me may always love him but I hope I will never again allow someone to control my life, my thoughts, beliefs, values the way I let him.

Letstry - I have read up on narcissists - and I believe he has alot of the traits - though maybe not a full blown PD. I had trouble reading the drjoecarver site - I'll try it again later.

Is Al-Anon not just specific to alchol - but, addictions and how we are to deal w/those that have addictions?

Luckily, I was not the OW - my WH was single..Had a steady GF who I now realize he cheated on profusely. He told me they were more like "friends" than in a relationship. I believed him - just like you believed your WH. Mine persued me hard too..but, he was probably persueing many at the same time. I feel hook line and sinker..I didn't have the luxury of anyone I knew who knew him..so all I could do was believe what he told me..I never questioned his time when we weren't together - I was M - he was S - I didn't have a right to ? him. Even after we got M - I didn't ? much - I have male co-workers that I was friends w/ so I didn't think anything of his female friends.

When I look back - I was BLIND..There were signs I just thought like you did - I believed he loved me. Even now I'm sure he did love me - as much as he is capable of loving someone. I'm sure their OW believe all that they are being told now too..Just like we did..I think for a few years after we got our business he wasn't cheating - he was too busy and consumed w/work. Then he got bored - w/work, me, etc.

His one A partner was a woman he had an A w/10 years prior (b-4 I knew him) - did it ever end?? Or did he just pick up the phone one day and start it back up again. Did she believe his sob story that he was unhappily M and just needed a friend/ear - then the PA started up again. I don't know - maybe someday she'll tell me the truth..Even though, I've exposed them to her BS - I don't think they are in NC. I think I screwed up their good time especially when I let her know she was one of many - but, I think he can talk his way out of anything.

Yes, I've been to a lawyer - since he own's a higher percentage (60) and he worked for the corporate office prior to us buying our franchise - he has the upper hand for sure. My WH drinking has not caused him any real work issues - though, jeopardizing our business w/potential sexual harassment issues could be helpful - but, I don't have any real proof and I doubt his
MOW would admit anything. He's smooth..

From what I interperted from my lawyer - since the business is "marital property" - a buy out would have to take place. Personally, I'd rather D and keep my share of the business and he keep his share..Then neither of us would really lose out - but, I don't think it would be easy to do this.

I too feel totally wronged - especially since I've begged for MC - IC and he flat out refuses. He refuses to give up all the OW too..It's like smacking into a brick wall. Like you use to think, I think if he would give up drinking, his loser friend and OW - would could get our lives back again..But I know it won't happen..He doesn't have the strength to change.

It's a shame that your lifestyle had to change so dramatically because of his behaviour and that's what I feel will happen to me..I'm not ready for that yet. Couldn't you have worked something out - taking in boarders whatever to keep your farm???

I think I've put up w/this because I kept thinking WHAT IF HE CHANGED...WHAT IF HE REALIZED HOW HE WRONGED OUR M - WHAT IF HE WANTED TO TRY AGAIN..I have to start thinking Yeah, and WHAT IF HE DOESN'T...

Everyone tells me - to go file for the D..But, they also know I'm not ready - I have to get to the point where you are and LET GO...DON'T LOOK BACK - DON'T BASE MY LIFE ON SOMEONE WHO DOESN'T VALUE ME OR THE RELATIONSHIP.

I do know that he has contacted an attorney - I don't know what he plans next..Will he D me?? or will he just plan on living like this forever???? Or until one of his MOW leaves her BS..

I will continue to post here, pray and work on ME and not dwell on things I do not have the power to change..

HUGS

Are laws are No Fault - but, equitable distribution

LetSTry and ITHURTS,

Your interchange has been amazing as you've shared your stories. I was shocked when you shared that you had been the OW with your WH. That speaks of men who are leaving women and children in a wake of devastation. As I posted previously, my A's started after over 13 years of marital fidelity. I rationalized them as brief strayings for the sake of rediscovering passion and supplementing my wife's tepid sexual drive and response (how I wish I had been thinking differently and done differently). Almost all the OW were married. In my head at that time was not the idea of breaking up another family (even as I had no wish to break up mine) but to find a woman who felt the same kinds of needs that I was and who wouldn't be looking for another marriage. There were plenty of women to fit that bill (though it's certainly not exactly like you think it's going to be). Now the only people that my wife despises more than me are those OW....and, as you might guess, she bristles at any thought of an OW (such as what she might see on TV or hear about from a coworker). As I mentioned to Stephan on my thread, I do believe that the measure of her healing would be shown in her ability to have some sympathy for those OW (and me!). I am resigning myself to the reality of my situation. That healing has not occurred and I am absolutely powerless over making it happen and in fact, it may never happen. It could be that the woman I love and who is the mother of my children will think of me for the rest of our lives as the one who betrayed her and irreparably soiled our marriage. She has been back to the attorney and although I haven't been served with papers yet, I have no doubt they are coming and that she means to follow through with divorce. I find myself trying to stay in the moment and live one day at a time yet also 'bracing' myself for the inevitable turmoil of our marriage and family breaking up. If not for recovery I would again be tormented with thoughts of suicide. There are moments when the sadness is suffocating. But I know there are good things for me to gain through all this...as long as I face it and don't seek escape (and yes, that is a very real temptation).

ITHURTS, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will continue to post here, pray and work on ME and not dwell on things I do not have the power to change..</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, this is all we can do. I started a post to you earlier today, then lost it. I'm not going to try to remember what I said then. I'm just going to include a link to a post I started about 2.5 years ago on ACCEPTANCE. I requested advice from a member named BrambleRose and she says it all much better than I do.

It's also interesting to see how much has changed, but at the same time how I'm still struggling with some of the same issues. At that time, I was struggling to accept the hopelessness of trying to save my marriage. It took me another two years to become willing to let go of the things I thought I deserved, such as my beautiful home with it's memories of the family I no longer have. I guess it takes what it takes. Recovery is a process.
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=31;t=006216

LetSTry

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It took me another two years to become willing to let go of the things I thought I deserved, such as my beautiful home with it's memories of the family I no longer have. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This captures much of what I dread about the breakup of my marriage. I've been trying to come to some acceptance by thinking about positive things that can happen that maybe couldn't happen if we stayed together. But I keep coming back to the loss of so much that means so much to me. That's where I'm at today. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Letstry - Thanks for the attachement..Bramble was pushing you to be brutally honest with yourself..and how you were dealing w/your WH.

I read her posts and your replies - I saw so much of myself in your replies. Her questions were hard hitting but they opened your eyes..and mine are more open now too. I'm still trying to change what I have NO CONTROL OVER..Even though I say I'm not doing that - I'm still doing it just alittle less.

I still have a long road to go in Acceptance and moving forward and facing my fears as Bramble stated FEARS ARE NOT FACTS.

I've never felt that I wasn't good enough - yes, I fear I'll never met a nice guy - but, that's because even though I'd love to have someone really want me - I may not be able to let my guard down. It's been so long since there has been any true affection in my M that I fear I wouldnt' know how to have that again w/someone else.

If nothing else what I have learned from this farse of a marriage - is that I will never just keep quiet in a relationship again..I will voice my needs and set boundaries.I let too much roll off my back for years and it hurt me in the end. I should have confronted his lies right away - rather than waiting to catch him red handed. I should have confronted these OW face to face rather than fear them. I made my demands when he was too far gone emotionally and physically from our M... I should have seen the red flags and paid attention to them.

I don't regret the years I've spent loving him and only him - I regret being too weak to stand up to him and demand a marriage. I regret allowing him to use me as the "wife".

I have a long way to go in acceptance of the entire situation I'm in - but, I pray that I get there so I can move forward for ME and for those that truly care about me..

ITHURTS, I'm glad that BrambleRose's advice to me was helpful to you also. I thought it might be because I see so much of myself in your posts. At the time she wrote it, I didn't totally accept what she was trying to tell me. I didn't understand how I was trying to control the uncontrollable. I didn't feel like she really understood my situation. I still hoped my WH would realize that he was making a bad decision, choose to get sober again, and come back home, begging for my forgiveness.

In fact, the last time we were together in a joint meeting with our lawyers, about 6-8 months ago, he broke down crying, told me he still loved me and was sorry for hurting me. After he left, his lawyer said to me, "We could simplify everything by getting you two back together." Unfortunately, it's too late. WH is deep into his drug/alcohol addiction and still living with MOW. Nothing has changed. He's abusive to her as he was to me. He hasn't worked in 4 years, he's lost his professional license as well as his driver's license. I felt manipulated, but sad. He wanted to know if he still had that control over me, but had no intention of changing anything. Soon after this his son committed suicide, making everything even worse.

A lot of my fears have become facts - my marriage is over, the family we had together is gone, I've had to move from our beautiful "dream home" to a trailer on an unimproved piece of property in a small, rural area, I'm still running our business alone, and I'm 53 years old, childless, 6 years post breast cancer, 3000 mi. from my family of origin. Yet, here I am, surviving. Things aren't great. My WH is still fighting about every dime in our divorce. Trailer life is a bit rough - generator powered, no electric power lines or phone lines, dirt road with neighbor who's building speed bumps to make my life difficult (all I can think is that he resents that he can no longer ride quads all over my property and fish out of my pond). But, I'm so glad I'm not still stuck where I was, afraid to move forward, refusing to accept reality.

I, too, fear, never finding love again, at least not the fairytale kind I thought I had (while ignoring the obvious). It's so hard to be patient, to take the time to heal, but there's really nothing else we can do. I, too, hope I will be more assertive in future relationships and less afraid to set boundaries. I, too, let things roll off my back because I thought I was being a nice, agreeable person. Instead, it made me an easy person to lie to, cheat on, and manipulate. I acted out of fear. I didn't want to know if the rumors were true. I didn't want to confront him and make him angry. I never wanted to confront the OW's and start a fight. That seemed so tacky. Like you, my WH was already "too far gone emotionally and physically from our M" by the time he left with current MOW. In reality I did see the red flags, but I chose to ignore them. I told myself he was just flirtatious, that he enjoyed the adoration of certain women at work (usually not very attractive and needy) but he still loved me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't regret the years I've spent loving him and only him - I regret being too weak to stand up to him and demand a marriage. I regret allowing him to use me as the "wife". I have a long way to go in acceptance of the entire situation I'm in - but, I pray that I get there so I can move forward for ME and for those that truly care about me..</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I feel the same way. We are moving forward. It takes a lot longer than we wish it would, especially if we really loved them - I think this says something positive about us.

XSCOUNDREL, Actually, not that it makes any real difference - what he and I did was wrong - my WH took his one yr. old son with him, at XW's request, I might add. But, she was still emotionally devastated and by then, I was in too deep emotionally to back out unscarred.

I empathize with your desire for more passion in your marriage. I felt the same way for even more years, but I now believe my WH's lack of passion was because he was finding it elsewhere.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As I mentioned to Stephan on my thread, I do believe that the measure of her healing would be shown in her ability to have some sympathy for those OW (and me!).[QUOTE]I am resigning myself to the reality of my situation. That healing has not occurred and I am absolutely powerless over making it happen and in fact, it may never happen. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So true. I thought, if my WH would just stop drinking he'd be appalled at what he's done and who he's with, but he hasn't yet.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I find myself trying to stay in the moment and live one day at a time yet also 'bracing' myself for the inevitable turmoil of our marriage and family breaking up. If not for recovery I would again be tormented with thoughts of suicide.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, thank God for recovery!
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But I know there are good things for me to gain through all this...as long as I face it and don't seek escape (and yes, that is a very real temptation).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's often hard to accept the things I know to be true, especially when the results haven't yet come to pass. We just have to do the best we can today, since we can't undo the past, and keep putting one foot in front of the other despite the voices in our heads with their suggestions, self-criticisms, predictions of doom, resentments, hopelessness, etc. that can pull us off our paths.

LetSTry

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I empathize with your desire for more passion in your marriage. I felt the same way for even more years, but I now believe my WH's lack of passion was because he was finding it elsewhere.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for your empathy. My wife has never empathized with this and when she has infrequently somewhat agreed that she should be more passionate, she has blamed me for it not being there. While I can accept some of that responsibility, it has been frustrating to accept it all.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's often hard to accept the things I know to be true, especially when the results haven't yet come to pass. We just have to do the best we can today, since we can't undo the past, and keep putting one foot in front of the other despite the voices in our heads with their suggestions, self-criticisms, predictions of doom, resentments, hopelessness, etc. that can pull us off our paths. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I really appreciate your wisdom. It's what I really need to think. I've got a ton of issues in my own life to face. I've been struggling for the last 2 years, on and off, to do my 4th Step. It took me most of a year just trying to start it because I was so obsessive about doing it 'right.' I'm wondering how you see working the steps with regard to coming to terms with things the way you have?

XScoundrel,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've got a ton of issues in my own life to face. I've been struggling for the last 2 years, on and off, to do my 4th Step. It took me most of a year just trying to start it because I was so obsessive about doing it 'right.' I'm wondering how you see working the steps with regard to coming to terms with things the way you have?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you have a sponsor? I spent years in and out of Al-Anon never doing a 4th step because I wasn't sure how to start, which way to do it, etc. I didn't make any progress until I got a sponsor who took me through the steps, told me how she wanted me to do my 4th step, and then expected it done in a reasonable length of time.

Then it's just a process of continuing to work on your character defects as you have been. It may feel like you're not getting anywhere, but the fact that you've made the decision to address your issues is huge. If you continue, your life will get better, there's just no guarantees exactly how that will look. I had to lose a lot of what I believed was necessary for my happiness to realize that happiness really is an inside job (as they say in the program).

Remember, grieving the loss of your marriage, even the potential loss, isn't a character defect, it's a normal human response. The challenge is to walk through it without resorting to the old quick fixes, relying on your new tools instead - meetings, prayer, reading, writing, posting here, etc. That's working the program.

LetSTry

Well, I had a sponsor and then he had a slip and I didn't. Since then I've asked and been turned down by about a dozen guys. One guy now is sort of sponsoring me. I say sort of because although he has a lot of recovery time, he has diverged from program a bit and I'm not sure that's what I need right now. So I'm still looking...and praying.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Remember, grieving the loss of your marriage, even the potential loss, isn't a character defect, it's a normal human response. The challenge is to walk through it without resorting to the old quick fixes, relying on your new tools instead - meetings, prayer, reading, writing, posting here, e
tc. That's working the program. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for the reminder that grieving isn't a character defect. Sometimes I am ambiguous about that. But I have been telling myself to stay in the moment, stay in reality which has been pretty painful. One day at a time.
Today there was a little bit of a thaw with my wife. It's been hard for either of us to feel much like decorating for Christmas but a couple of days ago I put some things up while she was at work and today she wanted to buy a tree and I put up some more decorations. It was the first time in over 3 weeks that we've been in a car together...and the first time we've been alone any where except home. There is just a little glimmer of hope in this. What I want is not so much that she will say that she wants to stay married as that she will say that she will get help.
An interesting thing about this development: when I put up the decorations a couple of days ago I didn't do it because I was in a holiday spirit. Quite the opposite; I've been dreading the holiday with the way things have been. But I put them up because 'you take the action first and the feelings will follow.' Well they didn't follow right away. But yesterday, in my morning devotions, my thoughts turned to Christmas and I was reminded that the great truth of this celebration is that Light came into the darkness of this world....God intervened in our pain and sin-sickness. And because of that we can have hope. And I asked for hope, I asked for light, I asked for strength to celebrate these great truths of Christmas no matter what. I am going to try and hang on to this.
I want to thank you and ItHurts. Your sharing your journey with me has helped me a lot.

LetsTry - I'm still at the spot where some of the actions I do - I'm "expecting" a "reaction" from WH. I still feel that if my WH would realize that what he's doing to us and others is a bad decision and I still spend time thinking that he's gonna wake up and beg me too - but, everyday that goes by I see him drifting even further from our M. I know he has to see that if we divorce it will effect both of us financially - but he also knows that in our business he can and will bounce back and I won't have the ability to "make it" like he will.

That knowledge gives him power over me..which he loves.

WH got a letter from his X this week - telling him his problems w/his son are HIS FAULT. I didn't see the whole letter - but I did see - DO YOU HAVE A HEART...I thought this was so funny, because where has this women been she M him 2 times, she of all people should know that he DOES NOT HAVE A HEART.. He himself has low self-esteem how can he reach out to his son - when he is empty himself. All he can give his children is money..and it works for his daughter but not his son. When they D - and over the years she has done nothing but demoralize my husband infront of the kids - show him disrespect and swear at him - how can she expect these same kids to respect their father now..

Rather than WH read and accnowledge the issues - he tore it up and showed no emotion to the letter.


I keep hoping he'll see that all his relationships are screwed up and do something - but - deep down I know his pride will never allow him to reach out for help.

I am really starting to contemplate filing for the D - I believe ( I could be wrong) that he has been to an attorney for a new will. He has a new key w/a number on it - making me believe it's a bank lock box. I think he has written me out totally and left everything to his kids..With his current lifestyle of MOW - sooner or later some BS is going to come after him - or if he keeps drinking somethings going to happen. I think I need to protect myself and get my money and run..If he left his half of the business and our home/assets to them - I'll be on the street w/alot less than if I divorce him now.

I know it sounds terrible that I'd run from this M because "I think" he's done a new will - but, w/everything else that's happened, his not willing to work on the M or give up the MOW - and I've known for over a year now - then I would be just stupid to sit here and hope I'm wrong.

I've made an appt. w/an attorney to make a new will - even if our D happens quickly - I need to protect my assets - should something happen to me and this D could get very ugly. Why would I want my WH to get everything - when he no longer loves me - no longer wants me..I need to take care of those that have been there for me..and always will be..

I'm starting to think that God is giving me these signs - seeing the key, seeing the attorney's phone number, etc. God is trying to shake me up and see my WH for who he is - a sinner that will never change. I believe God is trying to protect me from this evil heartless man. I am a good person who only wants to see the good in people and I have to open my eyes and let go.

I have set a time frame - I will confront him on D-Day - the day I caught him red handed - March 20th..That is the day I will file for D..I have to do this..I have to see that he will never change - no matter what..I must accept that this part of my life is over.

I think another reason to my holding on - is this is the 1 man - I have truly ever deeply loved - no matter what..unconditionally. I've had many relationships but this was different. I thought I had found my life partner. I don't want to realize that I was wrong - but I must step up to the plate and accept my mistake. Accept that he can only give so much and what I want he cannot give to me or anyone else.

I need to accept that this M has come down to money and that's it..nothing else..

I thought I could hold on - but if he is betraying me even more - I cannot hold on.

XS - greiving isn't a character defect - I wish my WH could "greive" could show some empathy for his actions, care about someone - other than himself. He is the one w/a character defect - NO FEELINGS...
Letstry is right - it's how you show strength/change in not resorting back to your old ways that is important in recovery. Since I was a WH my not resorting to an A becoz my current M is sinking shows I have stepped away from that weakness.

I'm glad to hear your wife has softened alittle..Baby steps where taken - keep up the good work - keep her seeing your strength - your devotion to your program/marriage/recovery.

I don't know you - but, I want things to work out for you and your wife..Maybe becoz it will give me faith that there are those marriages that can make it - even if mine can't.

HUGS

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ITHURTS:
<strong>

I think he has written me out totally and left everything to his kids..</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think he can do that. It is almost impossible to disinherit a spouse while you are still legally married.

I learned this when I remarried and went to update my will. My H does not need or want my assets...we wish for my DD to inherit all of my property and assets.
The attorney told me this was fine, but he was required to tell us that even though I was leaving everything to my DD, H could, if he chose, contest the will and get either 20 or 30 percent (can't remember which).

I looked and found this on the internet.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> In most states, you cannot disinherit your spouse completely. If you live in a community property state (Alaska, Arizona, California, Idaho, Louisiana, Nevada, New Mexico, Texas, Washington or Wisconsin), and only if you have made a written community property agreement, your spouse automatically owns half of what either of you earned during your marriage, unless you have a written agreement to the contrary. You can, however, do whatever you like with your half of the community property and with your separate property.

In all other states, there is no rule that property acquired during marriage is owned by both spouses. To protect spouses from being disinherited, these states give your spouse the right to claim 1/4 to 1/2 of your estate, no matter what your will provides. But keep in mind that these provisions kick in only if your spouse goes to court to challenge your will. If your spouse doesn't object to receiving less than the share set out by law, your will will be honored as written.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So sorry that you are having such a rough time Ithurts.
It is smart to think ahead and protect yourself as well as you can.

<small>[ December 13, 2004, 04:34 PM: Message edited by: Olyvia ]</small>

ITHURTS

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> God is trying to shake me up and see my WH for who he is - a sinner that will never change. I believe God is trying to protect me from this evil heartless man. I am a good person who only wants to see the good in people and I have to open my eyes and let go. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know this has been such a painful time for you. Having a straying mate is difficult enough as it is but to have your business and finances wrapped up with this same unpredictable and unreliable person is so much more complex and torturous. I admire that you come here and seek growth and counsel. It says a lot about the kind of person you are. I would like to suggest that you not allow yourself to define your wh as 'a sinner who will never change' or an 'evil heartless man.' For your own sake and sanity, try to avoid that kind of shaming and blaming. It just comes back on us. We must try to avoid fixing people into categories or speaking as if we can predict their future or speaking of them as less than human ('heartless'). Certainly actions can be 'heartless' but people still have hearts even when they are so deep into their sickness that it seems they don't.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think another reason to my holding on - is this is the 1 man - I have truly ever deeply loved - no matter what..unconditionally. I've had many relationships but this was different. I thought I had found my life partner. I don't want to realize that I was wrong - but I must step up to the plate and accept my mistake. Accept that he can only give so much and what I want he cannot give to me or anyone else. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My heart breaks reading this. It says a lot about how profound your sense of loss is. I can relate so much to your struggle to accept your situation and the disillusionment of it. Were you wrong for marrying him? Was I for marrying my wife? I'm not sure it's about right and wrong. We were who we were and we chose to the best of our capabilities at the time. Neither of us thought things would happen or turn out the way they have. Certainly we are learning things through our pain and experience that should change the way we make decisions in the future but that doesn't mean that we can only look at our past decisions as 'mistakes.' That is the way I'm inclined to think in my better moments.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm glad to hear your wife has softened alittle..Baby steps where taken - keep up the good work - keep her seeing your strength - your devotion to your program/marriage/recovery.

I don't know you - but, I want things to work out for you and your wife..Maybe becoz it will give me faith that there are those marriages that can make it - even if mine can't. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am both encouraged and challenged by the softening. Right away I am tempted to think of how my needs are on hold and not being met and to want her to at least show me a little affection. I can't go there. It's way too early and things are so very tenuous. Rather I am telling myself to lean more heavily on God and recovery buddies. I am in a war to save my marriage and like the soldier on the front lines, I should be thankful for survival and any sign of progress. I should not expect comfort. I keep reminding myself that she has not withdrawn the filing for divorce and right now we are still probably headed there. But I am thankful for these things: that I'm still in my home with my kids and my wife, that I have the opportunity to serve her and be a whole person regardless of how she relates to me, that for now things are not final and I am challenged to have hope and use this difficulty as an opportunity for much needed personal growth. That's what I have today. I don't know about tomorrow or next week or next month. So I will take it one day at a time.

Thanks for your support and cheering us on.

ITHURTS, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm still at the spot where some of the actions I do - I'm "expecting" a "reaction" from WH. I still feel that if my WH would realize that what he's doing to us and others is a bad decision and I still spend time thinking that he's gonna wake up and beg me too - but, everyday that goes by I see him drifting even further from our M. I know he has to see that if we divorce it will effect both of us financially - but he also knows that in our business he can and will bounce back and I won't have the ability to "make it" like he will.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I felt the same way and realized the only way I could let go of my expectations was to maintain NC. The other benefit is it has allowed my feelings for him to slowly fade. I don't know what your business is, but I believed the same about my H and our business. I was sure that he'd keep the business and I'd have to move away to avoid the hurt and humiliation. Funny thing is, it didn't turn out at all as I'd imagined. I'm running the business and he's gone.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I keep hoping he'll see that all his relationships are screwed up and do something - but - deep down I know his pride will never allow him to reach out for help.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We feel so much compassion for them, yet so much anger at the same time because in destroying their own worlds, their destroying ours as well and we are totally powerless while they do it. I agree with XScoundrel when he says, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would like to suggest that you not allow yourself to define your wh as 'a sinner who will never change' or an 'evil heartless man.' For your own sake and sanity, try to avoid that kind of shaming and blaming. It just comes back on us. We must try to avoid fixing people into categories or speaking as if we can predict their future or speaking of them as less than human ('heartless'). Certainly actions can be 'heartless' but people still have hearts even when they are so deep into their sickness that it seems they don't. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We feel angry because their behavior has hurt us, but their behavior is all about them, not about us. As XS says, they are deep in their sickness, so deep they don't even know they're sick and may blame us for all their problems as was (and probably still is) the case with my STBXH. NC has helped me to let go of blaming him and being hurt by his blaming of me.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think I need to protect myself and get my money and run..If he left his half of the business and our home/assets to them - I'll be on the street w/alot less than if I divorce him now. I know it sounds terrible that I'd run from this M because "I think" he's done a new will - but, w/everything else that's happened, his not willing to work on the M or give up the MOW - and I've known for over a year now - then I would be just stupid to sit here and hope I'm wrong. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My lawyer told me more than once that I would've been in a lot better financial shape if I'd come to him immediately after D'day rather than allowing him to take advantage of me, while trying to get him to see the truth for 1.5 years, which really muddied the financial waters. On the other hand, I know I wasn't ready to file until I'd given my all to try to save my marriage. You're definitely not "stupid" no matter what you do. This is a terribly painful situation with no "right" answers, so don't "should" on yourself (as they say in Al-Anon)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have set a time frame - I will confront him on D-Day - the day I caught him red handed - March 20th..That is the day I will file for D..I have to do this..I have to see that he will never change - no matter what..I must accept that this part of my life is over. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think setting a time frame is good because it will help you stop second guessing yourself about what you're doing. But remember, you have a right to change your mind when the time comes.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think another reason to my holding on - is this is the 1 man - I have truly ever deeply loved - no matter what..unconditionally. I've had many relationships but this was different. I thought I had found my life partner. I don't want to realize that I was wrong - but I must step up to the plate and accept my mistake. Accept that he can only give so much and what I want he cannot give to me or anyone else.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I felt the same way and I know how hard it is to let go. I know of several people who were able to immediately kick their H to the curb when he cheated and/or was abusing drugs/alcohol and then the WH came home and they're back together. I still sometimes, fleetingly, wish I'd been able to do that, though in my case I don't think he would've come back since he's still with the MOW, but it would have spared me so much pain. But, that's not what happened and there's nothing I can do to change that now.

Be patient with yourself and realize that you are going through one of the most difficult experiences you'll ever have to go through. The hardest thing for me was to stop beating up on myself and take responsibility for taking care of myself.

XS - Your right - It is his actions that are heartless and I need to stop blaming him as a person. It's difficult to separate that since that's all I see in him anymore. I really never thought he could turn like this - but he has. I've seen him mad over the years but NEVER like this..His whole attitude of not caring and telling me he doesn't care what people say or think is just not the man I thought he was..

If he's deep into his addiction - and refuses to come out - I can't help but to think of him in this way - and his XW - saying the same to him about not having a heart - it's like he's shut himself off emotionally to everyone. His only fulfillment is the OW - the sex - the drinking - the chasing..Doesn't he miss having someone to hold and love him everyday?? I know I do..Though, I was loved and coddled as a child - he claims he was not held and his family is not touchy, kissy type people. So maybe when he says he doesn't "feel emotions" he means it..it's not yet another lie.

Have you decided to contest the divorce? To buy her more time to see the new and improved model, to see that Plan A can last forever.

I know that SF w/my WH would be really hard right now for me - just knowing how many OW he's been with and that he may/will compare my body, my sexual skills, etc. to them - sickens me..Nowing that probably for years he's had SF and I've had none..enrages me.. That I did w/o sex becoz I "thought" he wasn't interested/didn't have strong needs like I did - How rotten and unfair is that. You may have to continue taking things VERY slow sexually - very small baby steps -maybe then she will start to see and feel what she'd be missing should you D..

Letstry - NC isn't a possibility - we are still living together - though, have little to no interaction. Believe me my feelings are fading for him too even though we still live together. Unfortunately, if there was a chance to get our M back - living like this isn't going to make him feel any different either - he will continue to drift from our m..Hey, he's got OW to fall back on which helps them to continue to block their feelings for their BS/

I did get to another attorney this am..He was great - my WH cannot cut me out of the will totally..nor can I cut him out..There are things I can do to protect my personal items, as well as, my part of the business. I will get this done ASAP..I cannot nor can he just sign everything over.

This same attorney (whom I met a few years ago for my parents will and a codicle for my pets) saw right thru me - He said I need to get strong and not be afraid of him..I told him he seems to be cocky about something..He said he has nothing to be cocky about..He reviewed our written partnership agreement, etc. and said it's STILL Marital property..Well, that's the 3rd attorney that said it so I feel better.

He said that my knowing approximately what our business is worth will make me stronger as knowledge is strengh..He feels I need to get to a CPA w/the books and get an estimate of the value..Once I know that I'll be in a better position to deal w/him..He's right - I fear starting over and losing everthing..and I may have NOTHING to fear...

I believe I have done everything possible to save my marriage. So if it ends - I'll know in my heart I tried..I found this site too late - I should have thrown him out immediately - I exposed too late..I let too much go like you did Letstry..But, even if I did do things differently if I'm dealing w/ a serial cheat who's always done this - no matter when I would have confronted/exposed/thrown him out - the end result would not be different from what it is now..He wants it all....

I just feel bad that this situation has become so out of control - that this man that I love(d) so deeply - has nothing but hate in his heart for me..WHY???? I know the reasons - I just haven't "accepted" them all yet...I'm fighting a losing battle..I too don't regret the fight - I regret the outcome as I know my love will not win..Lies, cheating, stealing other mens'wives that's what will win over me...

Hugs...because they do a body good..