Gnome - I really enjoyed reading that last post you put up. It really hit the head on the nail in the situation I'm in. Here's a link to the full thread/story. All the wounds are fresh and I'm confused as to what I'm REALLY doing. (Sorry, didn't mean to hijack the thread.) I do have a question for you. When is it time to let go? I'm in the first stages of what will probably turn out to be a divorce. The thing is that my WW has not even attempted to seek any kind of help, consultation or even a talk from my side of the tracks? She is absolutely not will to seek any kind of help. Basically, it seems that she doesn't want to see the "other side". Those are the reasons I'm hanging onto the fantasy of reconciliation. Do you think it is beyond repair?

I've since left it in God's hands until he wants me to "drive". Although I still hope for reconcilliation, I mostly pray for her to have a softer heart. I've told my WW to put off any divorce plans for now, even though I initially wanted to get the ball rolling asap. The last thing I said to her was "I love you."

I plan on just sitting back trying to forget everything and concentrate on healing and myself. All in the presence of God. Hopefully during that time, God will guide me and let me know what I need to do. I've been praying for her and myself just about everyday now. She left the house on 12/19.

<small>[ January 04, 2005, 09:16 AM: Message edited by: Bubba6453 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Bubba6453:
<strong>When is it time to let go? I'm in the first stages of what will probably turn out to be a divorce. The thing is that my WW has not even attempted to seek any kind of help, consultation or even a talk from my side of the tracks? She is absolutely not will to seek any kind of help. Basically, it seems that she doesn't want to see the "other side". Those are the reasons I'm hanging onto the fantasy of reconciliation. Do you think it is beyond repair?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When is it time to let go of what?

I read your story, Bubba, and I should make the disclaimer that it seems disconcertingly similar to my own. That similarity may be superficial, however, and so it is quite possible that I may be reading things into your situation which don't properly belong there. You should probably take that into account as I try to answer your questions...

If you believe that somehow you can do something to "fix" your wife or this situation in which you have found yourself, the time to "let go" of that belief is now. While it is possible that your words and actions may influence your wife (assuming there is opportunity for you to maintain contact with her), if you choose your words and actions on the basis of the effect you hope it may have, you are likely to amplify your own anxiety and make matters worse. You must say what you believe is right to say, do what you believe is right to do, and "let go" of the responsibility for how she responds.

Unfortunately, the harder you fight for your marriage, the more damage you will probably do. You must respect your wife's freedom to make her own choices, however destructive they may be. That doesn't necessarily mean you should enable her poor choices (and you will have to decide how much cooperation with the divorce process may fit into that category), but if she wants space, you really need to give her space.

If possible, it may be good for you to "let go" of the need to fully understand what happened, or at least the need to know the truth. I couldn't entirely do this, and I spent two months after my ex-wife left frantically digging through books and articles in an effort to understand. For me, I believe this effort helped - especially since when I found the matching script it prepared me for the next few acts of the play, which otherwise would have come as a terrible shock to me. (My ex-wife went from acknowledging that I had been a good husband to painting me as some kind of monster.) But there are other things I doubt I will ever know. Was there another man somehow involved? There was some evidence that could have been interpreted that way - although there were more convincing reasons to believe otherwise. But I will probably never know for sure. And for all practical purposes, what difference does it make whether I know or not? Either way, she's gone.

But what about love? And what about hope? Are these things you should "let go" of?

I don't believe so. I don't believe that love is ever a mistake, although it may sometimes hurt more than anything else I can think of. Love makes you bigger - and I mean that in a good way.

As for hope...that hurts too - but how are you supposed to quash it? As the saying goes: "Hope springs eternal."

I was careful in my previous post to say "I believe it's best to let go of any expectation or fantasies of reconciliation" rather than "I believe it's best to let go of any hope for reconciliation." By "fantasies," I meant daydreaming about scenarios in which reconciliation was accomplished. I don't think that's healthy. But hope is something else.

I think the time to "let go" of hope is when it lets go of you. For me, that didn't happen until I found a greater hope (one which has remained equally unfulfilled). Maybe there are other ways in which that can happen too - though I myself wouldn't know. But I don't see any point in worrying about it. After all, what would life be without hope? I would rather hope for a miracle (I believe in a God of miracles), and trust that even if it's not the miracle I imagine, God will continue to do something amazing in and with my life.

So in answer to your question about whether I think your marriage is beyond repair, I say "No." You can't repair it - not by yourself anyway. Your wife is going to have to deal with some issues before your marriage can be restored, and I don't believe even God is going to force her to do so. (He gave us free will for a reason, after all.) But if she cracks the door, there is no problem that God can't fix and no wound that He can't heal. In the meantime, if you can find the center of His will for you, then you will be in the right place for whatever happens.

being a woman that was cheated on i beleive differently that the rest here. Yes I believe in the bible. But I know I am not perfect. My marraige was done the day he asked me to leave. the rest is just a formality.

I do not believe in one night stands really though. But maybe a bed buddie.

We are humans.

<small>[ January 07, 2005, 09:47 AM: Message edited by: Stone Cold ]</small>

One Night Stand

Bed Buddy

Friends with Benefits

WTF is society coming too. You know many experts say that video games have desensitized our children to things like violence and sex. In fact while in the military we shot at “Russian” targets for the reason of desensitizing us to the fact that some day we may have to shoot at one. And now many police departments and military specialties use realistic training situations with an objective to desensitize the individual and make it a habit to react in certain ways.

So what does a “ONS” or “Bed Buddy” or “Friend w/Benefit” really do for a person? IMHO it takes away from the passion and emotion that embodies a sexual relationship. Do you not become desensitized to the act and making love, therefore leaving a you with the habit of having sex. Maybe I’m way off here, but to me sex without emotion is cheap, superficial, and dangerous.

Quite honestly if I have to choose between scoring with some hottie to release this primordial urge or taking matters into my hands. I’d simply say “Pass the Lotion”… <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LostHusband:
<strong>...IMHO it takes away from the passion and emotion that embodies a sexual relationship. Do you not become desensitized to the act and making love, therefore leaving a you with the habit of having sex. Maybe I’m way off here, but to me sex without emotion is cheap, superficial, and dangerous.
...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right. Making love to my wife meant something to me. Every ONS I ever had was just sex.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Yes I believe in the bible. But I know I am not perfect.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This, in my opinion, represents one of the biggest problems with Christianity in America today. The Church has become so focused on God's love and grace that it has forgotten why God made all those "rules" described in the Bible in the first place. Sure, the "law" was given in part to show us that we can't measure up to God's standards in our own strength. But its primary purpose was to show us the wisest way to live. Nowadays the popular "Christian" view of the morality taught in the Bible is to hold it up as a nice ideal, but surely not something God ever actually expected us to live by. Surely God understands our weaknesses and doesn't want us to take those ideals too seriously, lest we get caught up in unhealthy self-flagellation - right?

No, the wonderful thing about God's grace is that it does more than just grant understanding and forgiveness for our own foolishness. God also offers us the strength to live in the manner that will bring us the most joy - to live in the way that He intended for us to live. But we persist in the delusion that by going our own way, by searching for solace and happiness in empty and self-destructive acts, we will somehow have better lives than if we follow God's plan. And by buying into this lie, we cheat ourselves of the blessings that God so much wants to bestow on us.

Living God's way may be harder than living our own way sometimes. But the rewards are so much worth it.

As for the particular subject at "hand", I am in complete agreement with Bill's position as stated in his last post, except that as far as I'm concerned he'd better go get his own lotion. I'm not sharing mine.

That's not exactly true. The bible reflects the social norms of the time it was written in. If you want to take it literally, you have to take it ALL literally. This means you better not cut your hair or shave.

And Hey! Go give me a few wives and if they don't 'produce', I guess it's all good to knock up my maid. After all God condoned it in the Old Testament. If it's in the good book, it must be true, no?

And if you want, I'll go ahead and post the scripture from Genesis condoning it.

God's grace is evident in story after story within the Bible. Yes, when various Biblical figures decided to do things their way, God found ways to fulfill His plans and purposes in spite of those setbacks - but I do not think that "condone" is really the best word to use in those cases.

The statement "If you want to take it literally, you have to take it ALL literally" is absurd. Of course the Bible reflects the social norms of the times in which it was written. This does not negate the principles it expresses.

If you want to argue about what kind of book the Bible is, or about appropriate hermeneutics, you'll have to find someone else to do it with. I don't think it's irrational to reject the Bible as a God-breathed collection of documents (however you may choose to interpret that statement). My complaint is with those who claim to believe that it is an accurate revelation of God, but who then fail to take it seriously.

My point is that people tend to take what they want from the bible and conveniently leave out the rest.

What exactly IS consistent throughout the work? The same exact things that are consistent in Juadaism, Islam, Buddhism, Taoism, etc.

The idea of being good to other people. The idea of living according to a set of values rather than base desires. The idea of submitting to God rather than following your own whims. The idea of standing up for what you know/believe is good and fighting for it if need be.

To me, this is the message in the bible. If the bible were written today, the context would be very different but the message would remain the same.

-edit-

Back to the whole point on no sex outside of marriage. It made a lot of sense when there was no birth control and people lived with their parents until they married and moved in with their spouse. That's just not how it is in 2005 though. Just like it is absurd to think you must marry your Brother's wife if your Brother passes away or that it is OK to procreate with your handmaid if your wife is barren.

<small>[ January 07, 2005, 03:12 PM: Message edited by: Noonespecial ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Noonespecial:
<strong>Back to the whole point on no sex outside of marriage. It made a lot of sense when there was no birth control and people lived with their parents until they married and moved in with their spouse. That's just not how it is in 2005 though.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Um...?!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>My point is that people tend to take what they want from the bible and conveniently leave out the rest.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah! That would explain it...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Noonespecial:
<strong> It made a lot of sense when there was no birth control and people lived with their parents until they married and moved in with their spouse. That's just not how it is in 2005 though. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

So are you saying that because we now have birth control, partial birth abortion, and don't live with our mommies and daddies anymore we can do what ever we want? <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

No, I'm saying that if you do some independant research on the effects of Victorian Society on both sexuality and religion you'll see exactly WHY sex is such a taboo thing in religion today and that it wasn't that way for most of the history of Christianity.

Or...

Victorian Society took sex and changed it from a beautiful, natural thing into something shameful and dirty; especially in regard to female sexuality.

It's another example of people taking something that was not a big deal for the majority of the history of the Christian faith and using selected passages from the Bible to back up the moralistic thinking of the time.

The bible did not make sex the dirty thing it is today, the Victorians did and tried to use the Bible to back up their morality.

If you read the Bible, READ the Bible. Take the book as a whole, ponder what is said, and pray on it. Don't patch scripture together to defend a point you want to make.

-edit-

I probably wont post on this one anymore. This is one of those subjects where everyone is right, everyone else is wrong, and all that comes of it is a lot of bad feelings. I've stated my opinion. I'm not here to change anyone's mind; maybe just make them do a little independant critical thinking.

God Bless.

<small>[ January 07, 2005, 03:40 PM: Message edited by: Noonespecial ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Noonespecial:
<strong>No, I'm saying that if you do some independant research on the effects of Victorian Society on both sexuality and religion you'll see exactly WHY sex is such a taboo thing in religion today and that it wasn't that way for most of the history of Christianity.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Most of the history of Christianity follows the time of Constantine, when Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire and people suddenly found that they were supposed to be Christians but had no idea what it meant. Even much of the time prior to Constantine involved confusion and consolidation as the church tried to sort out the various conflicting teachings of the day.

I am more interested in the cultures within and to which Jesus and Paul spoke. Sex was not considered taboo and dirty as it was in the Victorian era - far from it, in cities such as Corinth. And yet, the New Testament writings are quite narrow in their treatment of acceptable sexual behavior.

I'd say that they are more silent than narrow on the issue. What I've found regarding sexuality tends to deal with adultery. What I've gotten is that it is the betrayal that adultery involves that is being referred to rather than the act of of having sex.

I could be wrong there though, and would be glad to read any scripture that you could point toward me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by GnomeDePlume:
<strong>When is it time to let go of what?

I read your story, Bubba, and I should make the disclaimer that it seems disconcertingly similar to my own. That similarity may be superficial, however, and so it is quite possible that I may be reading things into your situation which don't properly belong there. You should probably take that into account as I try to answer your questions...

If you believe that somehow you can do something to "fix" your wife or this situation in which you have found yourself, the time to "let go" of that belief is now. While it is possible that your words and actions may influence your wife (assuming there is opportunity for you to maintain contact with her), if you choose your words and actions on the basis of the effect you hope it may have, you are likely to amplify your own anxiety and make matters worse. You must say what you believe is right to say, do what you believe is right to do, and "let go" of the responsibility for how she responds.

Unfortunately, the harder you fight for your marriage, the more damage you will probably do. You must respect your wife's freedom to make her own choices, however destructive they may be. That doesn't necessarily mean you should enable her poor choices (and you will have to decide how much cooperation with the divorce process may fit into that category), but if she wants space, you really need to give her space.

If possible, it may be good for you to "let go" of the need to fully understand what happened, or at least the need to know the truth. I couldn't entirely do this, and I spent two months after my ex-wife left frantically digging through books and articles in an effort to understand. For me, I believe this effort helped - especially since when I found the matching script it prepared me for the next few acts of the play, which otherwise would have come as a terrible shock to me. (My ex-wife went from acknowledging that I had been a good husband to painting me as some kind of monster.) But there are other things I doubt I will ever know. Was there another man somehow involved? There was some evidence that could have been interpreted that way - although there were more convincing reasons to believe otherwise. But I will probably never know for sure. And for all practical purposes, what difference does it make whether I know or not? Either way, she's gone.

But what about love? And what about hope? Are these things you should "let go" of?

I don't believe so. I don't believe that love is ever a mistake, although it may sometimes hurt more than anything else I can think of. Love makes you bigger - and I mean that in a good way.

As for hope...that hurts too - but how are you supposed to quash it? As the saying goes: "Hope springs eternal."

I was careful in my previous post to say "I believe it's best to let go of any expectation or fantasies of reconciliation" rather than "I believe it's best to let go of any hope for reconciliation." By "fantasies," I meant daydreaming about scenarios in which reconciliation was accomplished. I don't think that's healthy. But hope is something else.

I think the time to "let go" of hope is when it lets go of you. For me, that didn't happen until I found a greater hope (one which has remained equally unfulfilled). Maybe there are other ways in which that can happen too - though I myself wouldn't know. But I don't see any point in worrying about it. After all, what would life be without hope? I would rather hope for a miracle (I believe in a God of miracles), and trust that even if it's not the miracle I imagine, God will continue to do something amazing in and with my life.

So in answer to your question about whether I think your marriage is beyond repair, I say "No." You can't repair it - not by yourself anyway. Your wife is going to have to deal with some issues before your marriage can be restored, and I don't believe even God is going to force her to do so. (He gave us free will for a reason, after all.) But if she cracks the door, there is no problem that God can't fix and no wound that He can't heal. In the meantime, if you can find the center of His will for you, then you will be in the right place for whatever happens. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Gnome - Thanks for the words. I've come to that realization today. I had a great experience yesterday when I actually felt the love of God upon me. It was really a rich experience. My wife and I spoke over the phone today. She's dealing with this whole thing her way. Since I'm not giving into the divorce, she's just distancing herself further, i.e. cancel her cel phone account on our joint account, give me full title of the car, etc. She is absolutely furious. The call ended up with me begging for her forgiveness. I think that fueled her fire.

Compared to our enriching conversation yesterday, she started of fierce and ended with "I love you too." She was just pissed.

I stepped back today and am going to take your suggestion and just let her be. After all, God does have the master plan and I'm definitely not going to be able to do anything with that. I'll muster up the strength to stand back and let God do the driving. It'll be a strange ride but I trust in him. He loves me too much to put me in any kind of harm.

Thanks Gnome....

PS, I have an extra bottle of lotion if anyone needs it...on second thought, never mind, I may need it for myself....

<small>[ January 07, 2005, 04:59 PM: Message edited by: Bubba6453 ]</small>