I finally got back into IC this morning and my therapist dropped a bomb on me. After telling him that I was not there to save our marriage but to work on my own issues (and giving him an update on my issues--it's been 3 years since I last saw him), he asked me this question: "do you realize the depth of your wife's illness?" Well, I've certainly become much more aware of my wife's "issues" but I was not ready for what he told me next. He went on to say that my wife's illness is such that she CANNOT go for help because being right is the glue that holds her together. I have unwittingly played into this by accepting the role of the 'sick person' in our relationship. Yes, I do have plenty of my own sickness but he told me that my wife has Borderline Personality Disorder and will never get better, never be able to forgive me for ways I've hurt her, never be able to see her own illness and get help, etc... He went on to tell me how this disease manifests itself in people and it was uncanny how well he was describing my wife. As what he said sunk in, the reality of my situation overwhelmed me and I sobbed in his office (and for much of the rest of this day). It pretty much ripped out any hope I've had for any restoration of our marriage. So my question is: does anybody here have experience/knowledge about this and whether there is ANY hope for her getting better?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So my question is: does anybody here have experience/knowledge about this and whether there is ANY hope for her getting better? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">yeah, and no. . . not without her wanting to get help and change herself. . . a psychotherapist that i know not as a patient, told me that she takes about 12 weeks to figure out and convince the person that they need help, if they continue that long.

then treatment begins and it can take a year or more. . .

BPD is not very easy to deal with, and its runs in my X's family, XMIL had it, XGMIL had a variation of it. . . and yep, its all about being right, and that their feelings are correct and right, regardless of whether they can be proved irrational or not. . . and my XFIL turned into a man servant and would accept being wrong for everything to keep his mentally ill W happy and he gets to be a pretend caretaker for a very messed up woman. . .

i could go on. . . do you have kids? if not, be thankful . .. if so, read up on how to parent them and be a leadership parent. . .

for W, learn quiet, firm boundaries. . . get the book, "Walking on Eggshells," and read the section on how to react to their projections. by not accepting their blame and their responsibility. ..

good luck, the more you know, the better you will become. . . .

wiftty

Thanks for your response WhenIfindthetime,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">do you have kids? if not, be thankful . .. if so, read up on how to parent them and be a leadership parent. . .</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Eggshells is the book my therapist encouraged me to get. I do have kids...daugther 19, son 16, and son 12. Where do I read up on being a leadership parent.

Today I found out why my wife has not been able to forgive me even though she has tried and even though I have worked very hard at recovery. I feel so sad because I really love this woman. My therapist says I will be much better off divorced from her. Maybe it's my sickness but that is a devastating loss to me and I am grieving.

As far as her getting help....that looks doubtful. My understanding is that THAT is part of the illness: that they CANNOT see their illness....that is why they are so heavily invested in blame. 12 Step Recovery has helped me enormously in the last few years at not owning her blame but I have enough of my own sickness that it has still been a heavy weight to bear.

Spend some time looking over the posts at:

www.depressionfallout.com

I would highly recommend that you get Anne's book:
Depression Fallout. It's about how one can stay with a partner as they go through depression. It's a FASCINATING Book. If your spouse suffers from depression - You shouldn't be without this resource.

XScoundrel:

YIKES! Oh, my brother I really do feel for you, having been through it myself. In fact, in so many ways our stories parallel...it's a little uncanny. But back to the topic at hand.

To learn a little more about borderline personality disorder, you can click on these links:

BPD Central
Natl. Institute of Mental Health BPD
Mental Health Sanctuary BPD

These sites can tell you things like presenting symptoms, DMV diagnosis criteria, and on basic terms, kind of describe the illness.

Here's a resource to help you with raising your children with a BPD parent:
Kids of BPD

On that site, there are some links to what it's like to be a kid of a Borderline parent.

Finally, here is a page with support and resources for Non's (the spouses/SO's of people with BPD):
Support for Nons

And here is a yahoo!mail support group to join RIGHT AWAY:
Yellow Brick Road

I can personally vouch for the Yellow Brick Road email support group. You do not get a TON of emails (maybe 20 or so a day) BUT the support and comradre is WELL WORTH IT. For one thing, I became encouraged that I was not nuts...that this was really happening and it wasn't all in my imagination! Second, it was thrilling to realize that I was not the only one dealing with these issues...that there were others out there who struggled just as I did.

XScoundrel, this is not a 12-Step support group, but rather, a yahoo group moderated by a psychiatrist who TREATS people with BPD. None of their little "tricks" get past her, and that is SUCH a relief!

If there is anything else I can do to help, without crossing your boundaries about talking to a female online, you may email me at my address below. OTOH, I am also very open and honest about my expriences with my mentally ill exH, and if you think it would be beneficial to the group, there is no question I would not answer here in public either.

XScoundrel, Borderline Personality Disorder is DAUNTING, and the successful treatment rate is very low--but mainly because one of the symptoms is that for a BPD person to maintain their inner ego, they can not tolerate facing the possibility they may be responsible. If they have to face that they may be wrong, their whole inner structure might collapse--so they fight it with all they can muster. HOWEVER, it's not impossible to successfully treat BPD, just improbable...there is a difference. Heck, it's just like any other disease/illness--the ill person has to WANT to heal themself. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Know what I mean??

Your 12-Stepping Sis,


CJ

XS - How long did your therapist treat your wife? or is his diagnosis based on what you have told him during your IC?

Is this BPD a form of narcissism? Since you are the one that has lived w/your wife for 19 years do you "see" this in her??

Could she just be going thru a difficult change of life?

If she truly has BPD can meds help?

CJ

Thanks for your response. You wrote: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">XScoundrel, Borderline Personality Disorder is DAUNTING, and the successful treatment rate is very low--but mainly because one of the symptoms is that for a BPD person to maintain their inner ego, they can not tolerate facing the possibility they may be responsible. If they have to face that they may be wrong, their whole inner structure might collapse--so they fight it with all they can muster. HOWEVER, it's not impossible to successfully treat BPD, just improbable...there is a difference. Heck, it's just like any other disease/illness--the ill person has to WANT to heal themself. Know what I mean??</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do know what you mean but the confusing part to me is that it seems that the Borderline person can't WANT to heal because they can't see their need for healing. That seems to be the impossibility of it. Last night I did a search and read some of the sites you posted and others and have to say that I only felt more confused when I finished. Some of it fits my wife and some of it doesn't. Here are the things my therapist said that really rang true:
</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wife can't forgive because she can't see her own part.</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wife collects bad memories from years past and recounts them as if they happened yesterday.</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wife discounts the positive things in the past and present (including my recovery).</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wife needs me to be sick so she can have someone to blame.</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wife can't have orgasms. Yep, he said this and it fits.</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wife will pick one of our sons to replace me. She already has....our older son.</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
So here are some questions for you: </font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Did you ever talk with your ex about his illness? I feel like I can't say anything.</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Does your ex recognize that he is ill?</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If so, is he in treatment? Is therapy the only treatment?</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm struggling between feeling relief that I'm not as horrible as my wife has made me out to be and feeling sorry for myself for being a victim all these years; did you deal with any of that?</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am not angy at all at my wife....what anger I had seems to be gone. But I am profoundly sad for her, for myself, for our kids. How did you find out your husband was borderline and how did you process that discovery?</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I seem to be the opposite of my wife in that when I look at the past, I mainly only see the good things and positive memories. No wonder our views of the past are so different! But I'm not sure how to see the past now?</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How have your kids been affected by h's illness?</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I looked at my wife last night and I thought to myself, how can this beautiful and often positively delightful person be so ill? Part of me is even more drawn to her to take care of her. But she wouldn't have a clue that I was taking care of her and doesn't feel like she needs to be taken care of. Part of me wants to get out and experience what I've been missing all these years: someone who won't make me a whipping boy but will appreciate me for my strengths and....have orgasms! I'm pretty much a mess.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ITHURTS:
<strong> XS - How long did your therapist treat your wife? or is his diagnosis based on what you have told him during your IC?

Wife saw therapist 3 or 4 times about 3 years ago and the rest I guess is based on what I've told him. But I only told him 4 things about her yesterday: </font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That wife has been on a roller-coaster in our relationship the last 3 years with our enjoying many good times (or at least I thought they were good) and then cycling into periods of anger, distancing, etc...</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That wife has tried to forgive but keeps coming back to resentment, shame, and rejection.</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That wife has filed for divorce.</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That wife doesn't really want to get help or counsel because she thinks it's all my fault and the solution is to be rid of me.</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Is this BPD a form of narcissism? Since you are the one that has lived w/your wife for 19 years do you "see" this in her??

I think BPD is related to narcissism but I'm not sure how. I have seen some of the attributes in her but not all.

Could she just be going thru a difficult change of life?

Do you mean menopause? I don't think she's really into that yet (should I be thankful I have an opportunity to get out before she does?!) These are attributes she's had as long as I've known her though they aren't evident all the time. In fact, in my view, wife is mostly a pleasant person.

If she truly has BPD can meds help? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't know but she'd have to recognize her illness to take meds and I'm not sure how or if that will happen.

Anything new in your situation? How are you holding up?

XS - Do you believe that the therapist can make a diagnosis from 3-4 appt. 3 years ago..and the rest comes from what you have told him?

I don't mean this the wrong way - are you and some of us on here - looking for a medical reason for our spouses behaviour?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That wife has been on a roller-coaster in our relationship the last 3 years with our enjoying many good times (or at least I thought they were good) and then cycling into periods of anger, distancing, etc...
That wife has tried to forgive but keeps coming back to resentment, shame, and rejection.
That wife has filed for divorce.
That wife doesn't really want to get help or counsel because she thinks it's all my fault and the solution is to be rid of me.


If you go to the recovery section or Plan A/B - much of your wife's behaviour is what alot of BS go thru..Maybe she feels it's too hard to work on the M and that the easy way out of all the pain is to walk away..Not everyone deals w/a broken heart in the same way. The one issue - not seeing/assuming any responsibilty in the fall out of your M would bother me..We all BS/WS have to assume part of the blame. Hell, I'm M to a serial cheat yet I will take some blame..


Just wanted to rule out menopause - if she's had these attributes for as long as you've known her - did you always think there was something wrong w/her? If she is typically a pleasant person could it be that looking at you brings back the bad memories when you were WH?

None of us are "perfect"..I see how my WH can bring out the worst in me. I see that for over a year now I was ready to forgive him - I cannot let go of the injustice he has done to me and those that care about us. I was so darn ready to have the best marriage ever and those dreams/hopes continue to be shattered by WH.

I only replied because I don't want to see you jumping to medical conclusions about your wife - I know I went thru thinking he's borderline narcissist (maybe he is), Bi-polar(maybe he is)sex addict (maybe he is)..I'm not a doctor - maybe, he just let go of the rope and that's it..without his being open/honest I'll never know the truth - does it matter..yes and no..

Sounds like you need to talk to your wife..even though she's filed - you need the truth of where her heart is...maybe her filing is a way to get your attention..that she's sunk to the bottom and needs help now too..

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Anything new in your situation? How are you holding up?

See my reply post when I was looking for you..

HUGS MY CYBER FRIEND..

Borderline and narcissism are related, that is affirmative.

from the mouth of a practicing psychotherapist about 2 months ago.

being a leadership parent means that you are the responsible parent, that you are the disciplinarian parent, that you are the supportive parent, and that you have to do it without any spousal support. . .

which is the role that i have chosen, and that the kids are sort of understanding there is a difference between us as parents, and there is a reason why I chose that route, and my son even finally acknowledged it, and does listen to me more now than ever before. . . even though he didn't understand before.. .

wiftty

wiftty

I heard Harley on his radio show say BPD is just another name for selfish.