WOAH! Hold the phone here!

Kim is responsible in some part for a decision that NH made? She may be responsible for the fact that the marriage was not a healthy one prior to the affair and separation. She is not alone in that responsibility, btw. But there are ethical ways of dealing with an unhappy and unhealthy marriage, and having an affair is not one of them.

There are two things here: the health of the marriage beforehand (which will make an affair seem more desirable) and the affair afterward.

Now, let's just assume for a minute that Kim is entirely responsible for the state of the marriage beforehand. What we are then saying is that it justifies his action afterward and transfers blame from NH to his W.

Can someone please explain the flow of logic here, because it escapes me? I'm afraid I missed the lesson on how responsibility for one's own actions is assumed by someone else simply for the way they treated us.

<small>[ March 14, 2005, 04:50 PM: Message edited by: *Takola* ]</small>

Takola, It is sort of the OW mentality. You didn't treat your husband right. So I have the right to come in and take him. I am not to blame, you caused me to do it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by NHMUA:
<strong>
Yes, why would anybody want me in there live when I can't even control myself. I don't blame my wife for wanting to move on. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I didn't quote the whole post, but this line in the post pretty much sums up what the whole post was like....

I'm going a little different way than most of the other posters here did. This was one of my biggest problems with now-XH. There were always excuses and lies... until things reached a point where excuses and lies had pushed me over the edge. Every time I started truly getting mad at XH about his treatment of me, and he could see that the excuses and lies weren't working anymore, he would change tactics.

Suddenly, he would start talking about what a horrible person he was, that I was right about everything, that he couldn't understand how I could ever put up with him, that he didn't deserve someone like me, etc. This made me angrier than the lies and the excuses did.

Now I know, you might be wondering how that could be. After all, wasn't his admitting he was a horrible person exactly what I was looking for?

NO! NO! NO! Why? Because, just like the excuses and the lies, it was just more words. He was trying on different methods to see which one "fit." Throwing out different bait to see which one would get a bite. Or whatever other analogy you would like to use here.

His "mea culpa" act was far worse than the excuses and lies because it was just another (and very effective) way of cutting off any conversation about the real problems. I mean, how can you tell someone that what they are doing is hurting you when they are sitting there, literally hitting themselves, saying "you're right, I'm horrible, I don't know how you put up with me." You feel like you're kicking a cowering dog at that point.

Just like the excuses and the lies, it's all about avoidance. Avoidance of responsibility, avoidance of change, avoidance of actually dealing with the problems instead of running from them.

And I'm guessing there's a good chance you think I'm just picking on you for this because my XH was guilty of it. But believe it or not, I am trying to help you. I'm saying what all the other people around here are trying to tell you - at this point, your words mean nothing. Action is what counts.

You talk about wanting to really develop a plan...but why? My guess is that this is just another technique to buy more time. You don't need to develop a plan - I have no doubt Karena has laid one out for you, and at this point, yes, her plan is the only acceptable one. But you don't like the thought of doing it her way, you ought to be able to map out your own plan, right? Well, you've already shown you can't, that you need someone else to do it.

What I see here is a whole lot of passive aggressive tendancies on your part. You are extremely lucky your BW has held out this long - this is some of the most frustrating behavior in the world to deal with. By the time my XH walked out, and then called, crying, two days later, begging to come home, I'd already had it with him. I agreed to go to counseling with him and try again, but only because I felt I should, because of my beliefs about marriage. I really didn't even want to do that. And I didn't let him come home - I told him that he couldn't come home, he couldn't continue to live with OW, and that it would probably be at least a year before I let him come home, and even then, it would depend on how counseling went and what changes I saw. And that if he went back to her, that was it, we were through.

His solution? Continue living with her (when she hadn't kicked him out,) continue going to counseling with me, and lie to everyone about the situation. He lied to me and our counselor/minister about where he was living, and he lied to OW about where he was when he was with me. For 2 1/2 months, until I found out. And I followed through. I didn't put through the divorce, he did, but only because I wasn't in any rush. But I DID push getting the settlement agreement in place, because in my state, that basically IS the divorce, the rest is just the paperwork. Since I wasn't looking to remarry immediately, I didn't care when the divorce was final, so he eventually did file, since I made it very clear that I was done.

What's my point in all of this? You are still pushing the edges - making excuses, trying to find a way that will work this time, as long as it's YOUR way. You seem to be a lot like my XH... my name is even Kim! Until I saw people talking about kids, and remarks that your MIL made (mine would have rather run over my XH than talked to him!), and that you weren't divorced yet, I halfway thought you might BE XH. And I'm telling you, I see it in the posts that your BW has put on here.... she is at the end of her rope. It'll hurt, and it will be hard, but in the end she will be ok, and a lot happier if she doesn't have to put up with your selfishness anymore.

But.... she would be a lot happier not having to put up with your selfishness if it was because you quit being selfish than if it's because you divorce.

I've lived through a lot of what she has, though fortunately without children involved. She has been extremely patient if it's been two years of separation like this. You probably don't have much more time. And I have no doubt that she's tired of the excuses, the plans, the finding yourself, and even of you telling her she's right and you don't know how anyone could put up with you - even though you don't actually change what you're doing.

Sorry if this seems harsh, but I really am trying to help. You need a serious wake-up call here. Or, if you really think that we've all misjudged you, and that she did cause you to act the way you've acted, then do both of you a favor and just let go. I know this is MB, and that's a very un-MB thing to say, but... if you aren't willing to do more than just talk about making a plan, and make excuses and such, then have at least enough mercy on her to just let her go. MB is about changing yourself, and about satisfying your partner's needs. Until you are actually ready to do those things, you're just hurting both of you.

Oh, and Kim, this one's for you....

Dr. Irene's Verbal Abuse site

I wish I'd found this a lot sooner. I was in denial for a long time about how much verbal and emotional abuse had gone on in my marriage. I kept thinking - well, he doesn't hit me, yeah, I don't feel very good about myself, but it isn't that bad. It took me finally talking to several people, including a counselor, and being told that the behavior I tolerated all those years WAS that bad, it was very outrageous, to realize what I had been putting up with all those years. I will warn you - it's not necessarily a real MB kind of place. Many of the women are planning their "escape," figuring out how to tolerate things until they can put together the resources to leave. But you might find it helpful too.

nhmua, two questions right off.......How do you know you love your wife? And How can you make her love you again........Has she always been the way she is or just after your affair...Is she willing to go to counseling? Are you willing to do what you are told? Do you know God......good time to find him and pray for forgiveness from him and her....and kids......You own it to all of them to do whatever it takes to make it work.......deny yourself.......obedience is better than sacrifice....others are more important than you....believe it or not......seek truth and right and all the rest will be provided......My husband had cheated our entire almost 5 years of marriage......not with just one but several at the same time......is doing it now.....told him yesterday if he needed to be free go......Dec 8 2004 he actually married someone else......how do i know......saw emails to the effect.....and there is a lot more.....unreal ......... still if he would confess some and get the help he obviously needs I would be right here......I dont know what i am gonna do at the moment...........

Penguin...thanks for the link. I will give you some feedback when I get a free moment. Thanks for posting as well, it is always comforting to know that there are others out there who can empathize, as well as sympathize with our particular situations.

Thanks again...kimmie