Please read this post. WS needs help. I don't want to give H ultimatum. It breaks my heart to see him torn like this. But I just don't know if I can watch this event (OC) happen before my eyes. I love this man more than I can say. How can I watch him father a child that isn't mine? One who will take away the things that are so special for me and my D?<p>[This message has been edited by lostsoulmate (edited July 06, 2000).]

LSM,<P>I read the post. I really have to think about what I would say as far as posting directly to him. I don't know if I and others can support you and lend support to him, but I will try to think about it. I truly don't know what to tell him. I am in the same boat as you as far as I don't want contact. In fact after two years of just now finding out, I can't even afford the financial support. I know in my heart that I personally could not stay if there was going to be contact with the OC. I don't want my child to grow up having to face that every day of her life. My H has very limited time with his job as it is, there isn't enough of him to spread around. I really feel for you. I know you don't want to have to pressure him. But both of you will have to listen to your hearts. If you really can't handle contact with OC, which no matter what anyone says includes contact with the OW, for the rest of your lives then you will have to go from there. And if he can't walk away from this, then he has to follow his heart. I wish that there was a easy answer, but lets face it this situation is a mess. I am sending my thoughts and prayers for you. I am so sorry.<P>babstr.

I read your H's post. My fiance does have contact with the OC. He sees him about once a month (since we live in different states) It took us a long time to reach an agreement that I was comfortable with because I did not want him to have ANY contact with the OW. So we go to the other state and visit with friends. One of his friends picks up the OC and brings him to my fiance. I knew that he would want contact and I was definitely not comfortable with it but I had to keep reminding myself that this OC has no fault in the way he was made. Mind you the child is 3 and it is now that I am somewhat comfortable with it, his mom is not a good mom to say the least so I feel as if the OC really needs my fiance to play a part. I am sorry I cannot offer advice except to speak honestly about the way you feel. Unfortunately there is no easy solutions to this "mess"! You are in my prayers.

How can I get OW to agree to terms I can live with? And get my H to support them? (i.e. me being soul contact, no contact unless I'm present, pick up/drop off at mutual location, etc.)? Can OW really say no? Does she really have all the power?

lsm,<BR>I read and replied to your H's post. I let him know that the first thing that needs to heal is your marriage. You are in a lot of pain right now and you need to work on healing yourself and your marriage. Then, you can work on accepting the OC into your lives. Your H is being honest with you about wanting the OC in your lives. I don't think that your marriage can survive if you deny him this right. As hard as it is for us to accept, this IS his child. It will take time, but do you think that eventually, when your marriage is healthier, that you would be able to handle this? You may not think so right now but I think you can. It is not easy, but it can be done. Remember that the OC is innocent.<P>You can gain visitation through the courts so that the XOW is not the one setting the rules as far as when and how often. By doing that, you and your H can then set the ground rules for contact. But, a lot of that burden will fall on your H's shoulder. He has to remain firm by NOT accepting calls from the XOW if you are to be the contact person. If you and your H follow the POJA, then you will be deciding on the rules together. In that case, your H should be willing to do whatever it takes to follow them.<P>My H also insisted that he needed to be in the OC's life. At the time, the XOW was married so we weren't talking about shared custody, only a small amount of contact. What we agreed on, was to "babysit" the OC once a month. We did this for the first few months. I really wasn't ready to deal with it, though, so we don't have any contact with the OC at the moment. We are focusing on healing our marriage. I feel much stronger as a person and much better about our marriage now. I believe that I can now handle seeing the OC again. <P>Take care,<BR>Audrey

Audrey, I've never told my H that he could not have contact with the OC. I would never deny him that. That is why I have been forced to make the decision about our marriage. We talked about rules with regards to OC but my H just doesn't know if he can abide by them. Meaning I have indicated I want to be the sole contact point. And I want to be there when he first sees/meets this baby. And I need a mutual point of exchange. No direct exchange of the baby with my H and OW. He says "What if she says no". He's giving her all the power. What can I say? Nothing. But without this committment along with the healing of our marriage I can not watch this happen. I really don't even know I can watch it happen regardless. I didn't think my heart could be broken any more than it is.<P>As far as the first time my H sees the baby. AFter it's born if OW says no she doesn't want me there. Does my H go without me? Or does he wait until it's convenient for OW to accept my being there? Is this fair of me since I can't make a committment to him on if I can go through with all this?<P>My H and I keep getting closer and closer. We held each other all night last night. We talked on Tuesday night about how I just can't do this. My life is litterally gone the minute this child is born. No matter what the outcome. My life is gone. How can I see him love another woman's child the way he loves ours? I'm trying to remove myself from the "we" of our marriage. Trying not to make future plans for us. Just taking one day at a time. I just don't know if I can deal with OC. I know it's innocent. After becoming a mother I have a whole new outlook on children. Very protective of them. In even thought I could take this OC into my heart. Who knows maybe I can. But I can't promise anything and not sure I want to even subject myself to such pain and misery. I remember when my H and I were in highschool and we would sit and talk during our PE class. I remember his face when I handed him the pregnancy test I took and he realized I we were going to have a baby. I remember hearing his voice in my ear while I was in labor. I see his face when he looks at our D. How can I watch him look at this OC in the same way and know I wasn't the one to give that to him? That someone else took that gift from me.<P>I still have some hope for our marriage and my accepting the OC. However it's not the OC I can't accept. It's the idea and the special thing he/she represents that I can't accept. And the consequences I will be forced to endure for the rest of my life with this OC?<P>I can't breath. I just don't know how my life got so messed up. Less than a year ago we were purchasing our first house together. Now we're looking at selling and splitting up because my H is having a child with someone else. All the while I was hoping to get pregnant myself sometime in the next year. Now I'm not sure I can even have that again.<P>Thank you Audrey for you support. You should like you've done a lot of healing and it sounds as if your H is supporting you in every way. I really hope things work out with you and your family. Thank you for being there for me. LSM<P>------------------<BR>Lost Soulmate

LSM,<BR>I'm not sure of the details in your situation. When is the OC due? How long has it been since D-Day? It sounds like you are very early in the process. It takes a very long time to heal not only from the devastation of the affair but especially from the devastation of the OC. It is hard to predict what the future will bring. Even if you make a decision today about how you will deal with the OC that doesn't mean that it is set in stone. Things WILL change. <P>Your situation has a lot of similarities to mine. My H made it clear from the beginning that he wanted to remain married to me. He did not want a divorce. It sounds like your H wants to make your marriage work also. My H maintained that he wanted to be a part of this OC's life. Our recovery was very bumpy in the beginning due to issues about how to handle the OC. There were many setbacks and I wasn't sure that we would make it. We absolutely could not agree on a resolution for a long, long time. My H thought that he needed to emotionally support the XOW during the pregnancy. That was something that I could not tolerate. And my H didn't understand why he couldn't help shop for the OC with the XOW. He was concerned about the stress the XOW was going through during the pregnancy and the effect it might have on the unborn child. Well, what about me? It took my H a while to realize the depth of the hurt and pain that he had caused me. And I'm sure that even today he still doesn't understand the true depth.<P>As far as meeting the OC, I was with my H the first time he saw the OC. It was awkward and very painful. But I survived it. My H wanted to go to the hospital without me. The XOW did NOT want me to go. But, I told my H that that was what I needed. It was something that we needed to face together. I don't know what we would have done if the XOW had not allowed me to go there. My H did go to the hospital once without me. I was relieved when my H admitted to me that he did not feel the same bond with the OC that he felt at the birth's of each of our children (we have 3 kids).<P>I'm glad to hear that you and your H are getting closer. You need to continue to do that. The closer that you 2 are, the better chance that you will recover from this and make it work. I know that the feeling of having the issue unresolved is not pleasant, but you don't have to resolve it today. I hear you saying that you don't know if you can do it, but you sound strong enough to handle it to me. But it takes TIME .. I can't reiterate that enough. You need the time to deal with the pain and anger and hurt that this has caused you. You need to process all those emotions before your heart can be open to including the OC in your life. Believe me, I cried a LOT over this. And I'm not going to lie to you ... seeing the OC for the first time will be very painful. But you will survive. Your marriage can be stronger and better than ever. <P>I highly recommend counseling if you have not already done so. My H and I have been in counseling now for the last year. We started in couples counseling with some individual sessions. We are currently in group therapy (separate groups). We are working to understand our own issues and how they played into the deterioration of our marriage. <P>Take care and continue to post.<BR>Audrey

LSM, remember the Policy of Joint Agreement. If he isn't willing to work on a joint agreement, then he isn't thinking of you & your child. <P>Now here is my rant. Basically I think these men who want to stay in the OC life are SELFISH. This is NOT in the best interest of the child. He cannot parent two children in two household in the same manner. The OC will ALWAYS be getting less. This is about your H and HIS emotions over not wanting to be a bad guy. Well that is all BullS&*t. The best thing for this child is for OW to find it a full-time father. How can she short change her child this way? I have watched my brother parent an OC and the poor little boy is messed up by it. He resents that he cannot have the things my brothers D has (nice home, father in the house, etc.).<P>So all the stuff your H thinks he is bringing to the OC is nothing but a lot of long term damage. He needs to send a check & pray the OW finds that child a father who is there night & day. A real man would do what is REALLY best for the child & not his ego & pride. <P>Woo boy.... do I fell better! Carolyn

Wow Carolyn said some strong stuff!!! But she is absolutely right, they are doing it for their pride and ego. My fiance feels as if he is doing something by giving the OC one day a month but in all actuality it is quite cruel and can only lead to resentment. As far as my situation was concerned I never really thought about the OW and what she would allow or wouldn't allow. Our life, our relationship, abide by the agreement. You are to have no contact with the OW. End of story. DO NOT GIVE HER POWER! <BR>This is very painful and I think to a certain degree it always will be but I can honestly say it is not as painful as it was almost three years ago. What I resented the most was that I was the only one he was supposed to have babies with. Through this whole ordeal I cannot help but wonder if the tables were turned could he have handled it. If I would have went to him and told him I was pregnant with another's man child would he have wanted to make this work and I honestly don't think so. Take it one day at a time, as the saying goes time heals all things and it really is true. If your husband is doing everything to make this work, you will find it in your heart to make the best out of this situation. (I know hard to believe)! Take care

Thank you Audrey once again. The baby is due February 11th. It's been 1 month today since dday.<P>I do think I might be strong enough to handle this but do I want to? And I'm not sure my H is strong enough to set the ground rules for OW. He should not go see the baby for the first time without me. If OW says I can not come then he should wait until I can. I don't think these things are unreasonable to ask but my H just isn't sure what's right. He feels as though he's being forced to choose. When actually he is being forced to include me in the ENTIRE experience. Not exclude me just because it's what the OW requests. The bottom line is it's his child too and he should have every right to call the same amount of shots. What do you think about the fact of him being selfish and the fact that he should allow OW to find OM to be the baby's father full time? Because it's true. He is depriving this baby of a full time father.<P>After 10 months does it still hurt to know you were robbed of the sole child bearer of your H? This is just what I can't get past. The fact that both my daughter and I will be robbed of so much. Is this what life's about? Pain and suffering? I know time will lessen the pain but I don't think this wound would ever heal. LSM

Carolyn, do you really think it's being selfish to want to be included in the OC life? I agree about not being able to be 100% of a father. But what if OW never does find another man to be a father? Or what if she finds the wrong man? Does my H keep his distance as not to form a bond but support OC until she does find someone? It sounds as if OW has no intentions on finding someone else. She's expressed she want's my H to watch OC (my H works at night and stays with our D during the day) along with our D. She has also expressed her allowing a relationship with the OC and my MIL. So it sounds as if she wants my H and his family to be completely involved in OC life. Is this type of life healthy for my D?

LSM,<BR>You are very early in the recovery process. I know that it doesn't feel like it right now, but it does get easier. I've accepted the fact that this has happened and I'm dealing with it the best I know how. I have already changed a lot during this process. I feel that I am a healthier person than I was before all this mess began. I feel that our marriage is healthier and we continue to grow stronger as a couple every day. I no longer lament the fact that my H has an OC. We have not determined how much contact we will have with the OC but I feel strong enough to deal with it now. We have not told either of our families, except my H's sister. That part will be far harder at this point than actually caring for the OC.<P>You asked if you want to handle this situation. Think about the fact that your daughter would be deprived of a full time dad if you decide to divorce. I don't think you should stay married just because of the child but I feel that you owe it to her to at least try. Right now is not a good time to make any major decisions, such as divorce. Your emotions are still to raw. And the same goes for your H. He is so full of guilt and confusion right now.<P>I absolutely agree with you that you need to be with your H when he first meets the OC. This needs to be something that you go through together. It is going to be very emotional for both of you. Continue to let your H know that any involvement with the OC needs to include you. Your H is very confused. My H went through the same things. He didn't really know what he wanted. He thought he could have a separate life and see the OC without me. But that would not have worked to bring us closer together. <P>It's true that your H will never be a full time father to the OC. But, the same would be true for your child if you got a divorce. I'm not sure whether it is selfish or not for him to want the OC in his life. Is it really better for the OC to not have a male influence in hopes that the XOW will find a man to act as the OC's dad? Your H could be a positive influence on this child like an Uncle or a Grandfather figure. I can see that takingcare's view is based on how it has not worked for her brother. But that doesn't mean it can't work for you. I think the hardest part in this is that your H and mine have felt the need to be in the OC's life from day 1, when the OC won't have any memories of whether or not thier father's were involved. We don't have any good models or books that tell us what the best thing to do is when an OC is involved. We have to look at our situations and POJA with our H's to decide what is right for us.<P>I understand your concerns about your daughter. (How old is she, by the way?) But, if you divorce your H then she will be a part of the OC's life anyway. As much as we want to protect our children, we can't always do that. We have not told our children yet and I really dread that day. But, children are resilient and they will be able to deal with it. You can teach them about honesty and being responsible for the mistakes we make.<P>All you can do right now is take it on day at a time. You need to continue to let your H know that if he wants to be involved in the OC's life then he must include you. Life is not always fair. The past can't be changed. I know it doesn't feel like it right now, but you will heal from this pain. I'm so sorry that any of us are in this sad situation.<P>Take care,<BR>Audrey<p>[This message has been edited by Audrey (edited July 07, 2000).]

I haven't read every word of this thread, so forgive me if I repeat or boggle something here. But I want to touch on his fear "what if XOW doesn't want wife to be the contact, see the kid?". If your H is bent upon playing his fatherly role, and you agree by Policy of JOint Agreement (inportant to your marriage!), then your state probably has mandated laws about visitation that H can have enforced if necessary. If he has DNA proving he's the father and is paying adequate child support, she cannot legally keep him from seeing the child whatever amount the law requires.<P>Like I said, I haven't read your whole thread but I'm so sorry you are going through this. It is so very painful!! Be ever so kind to yourself through this time!

Thank you Audrey. Our D just turned two on Sunday. I fear she senses the emotional trauma because when I'm upset she looks at me and asks if I'm OK. Then asks me "Daddy did it?". I breaks my heart. While I reassure her that no Daddy didn't do it I can't help but to feel the anger towards him because he did.<P>I know now that the reason I'm still with my H is not because of my D. That might have been an excuse but it's more because of my feelings for him.<P>I know it's still early so I haven't made any final decisions. But I've made it clear I don't think I can do it. Maybe like you said once our marriage has had time to heal and my heart grows stronger I might be able to face this.<P>Today is going to be hard. It's one of those days where the future looks bleak. I don't want OC in my life. I don't want to be a step mother. I don't want my friends and family to know about our dirty laundry. I want someone who will be true to me for better or worse. I love my H. How could he do this to me? How could he think so little of me and the life we built together? Why do I have to be on this damn roller coaster? Did I do something horrible in my past life? Why, Why, Why??? I'm sorry. It's going to be a long day. Thank you for your support. I admire the strength and hope you have demonstrated. God help me be as strong as you are. LSM

Mike C2 <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lostsoulmate:<BR><B>Why, Why, Why???</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I did post to your H, and I think from reading here a little further, that there should be grounds for a compromise that will get you through this....<P>A few thoughts:<P>1. You, yourself, will get better with time as your confidence in your marriage gets better. I think a lot of this pain is still over the A and the insecurity of the marriage. If you can work out a compromise that allows you to see a future with your H, then I think you will feel better and more secure immediately.<P>2. If I were you, I would try not to sit here now and negotiate rules in place for the rest of this OC's life, and say that the failure of this negotiation means immediate divorce. This is still an emotional time....don't force decisions. Your attitudes will change over time.<P>3. Personally, if you are okay with him seeing the child and giving it financial support, I think you should have a great deal of say in the logistics, particularly in regards to lack of lack of contact with the OW. If the OW doesn't agree to the logistics that you are comfortable with, you can seek enforcement through the courts.<P>4. You may want to rethink being "sole contact" yourself. Your H probably sees that as a hotbed of future squabbles and pain for you, and he may be right. Others here could tell you more about what is precisely involved, or how they handled the communication aspect...maybe through a household email account or a third party. I suspect that what you are concerned about here is communication between your H and the OW that you aren't apprised of....so, set up a system so you are in the loop.<BR> <BR>Clearly, you two want to hold your marriage together and find a way to deal with this situation. Work hard at it, and try to find solutions to the immediate near terms issues rather than tackle the next 20 years in one sitting.<P>I wish you all the best.

Mike C2. You are right. I know it's early. I'm just so impatient I want things resolved now. After 12 years I hate the thought of giving up any more of my precious years to something that will never work out.<P>I have not asked my H to make a choice. He may feel this way but I've only told him what I feel today. And today I just don't think I can endure the pain of seeing H with OC. Or thought of knowing he has OC with someone else. <P>But I do have hope. As you said and everyone else said if H and I can agree that I should be included in almost everthing that involves OC it's not up to OW to agree. It's up to us and we can enforce if needed.<P>I will give it time. I won't make any major decisions now. Not unless I feel my H isn't giving what he needs to mend our marriage. Or my heart. We have 7 months to repair the damage. Once the baby is born then I can decide if it's something I can live with. <P>I will think of options as far as contact. E-mail is a good idea. That way we are both in the loop. And yes that is my concern. That OW will try to reconnect with my H and use the baby to do this. I won't go through what I did during the 5 months of this affair. While I wasn't aware it was happening I had suspicions and that was enough to put me through hell. I won't do it again. Thank you for helping me see things in a different perspective. What would I do without this forum? Everyone has helped me keep my head above water. Thank you for everything. LSM<P>------------------<BR>Lost Soulmate

lostsoulmate,<P>I just wanted to tell you that you are in my prayers, I can read the pain and struggle that you are going through. I do understand. I know that we all have our opinions, and I hope that they help you. Keep you chin up, sending you hugs. <P>babstr.

Thank you babstr. It always helps to know there are people on your side giving you strength the take the next step.<P>I'm thinking of you as well. LSM<P>Hugs right back to you.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lostsoulmate:<BR><B> We have 7 months to repair the damage. Once the baby is born then I can decide if it's something I can live with.</B><P>If I were your husband, I would prefer you to say that once the baby is born you will decide how much contact you can live with between the OC and him. It is hard enough to recover a marriage without a future Armageddon date hanging out there. Be strong, and don't make the mistake of demonizing this poor innocent child. Perhaps over time this child will come to symbolize the love and devotion you two have for each other to get over this tough time.<P>I know, I'm working hard on that spin <P><B>And yes that is my concern. That OW will try to reconnect with my H and use the baby to do this. I won't go through what I did during the 5 months of this affair.</B><P>When I have a problem like this with my wife or in business, I find it useful to bring the other party into the solution process. So, why not say to your H, "these are my concerns, what concrete steps do you suggest to address them?" (and leave trusting you out of it, I'm far from being there yet!) <P><B>What would I do without this forum?</B><BR>[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yep. Put my marriage back on the right track.<P><BR>

Mike C2. Again you're right. I never looked at the "birth of this child" as being an armageddon. But in actuallity that's exactly what it is. Or at least what I've indirectly labled it.<P>While I would never demonize this baby it's the symbol he/she represents. I would look into it's eyes and know I was not the one who gave him/her to my H. That's what hurts. But you're right. I could look at what this baby represents in a different light. Maybe some day when all is said and done I can say to myself "I'm glad this happened".<P>I always knew my H and I had issues. Never knew how to resolve them. Maybe this is what it took. Just wish it didn't have to destroy my life as I knew it. Thank you Mike C2. I hope things are going well for you. Thank you for keeping me focused today. I needed it.<P>LSM