I applaud each and every person in this forum for posting their messages and replies regarding this very painful topic. I've read several of the stories, and by doing so, I don't feel quite so alone in my particular situation. Part of the huge issue I have with dealing with our problem is feeling like a complete idiot for being with my husband at this point. Let me tell my long story. <BR>My husband and I have been married for about 11 and a half years. The marriage has been rocky at times. We married way too young, and up until recently, we've conducted ourselves as husband and wife under the young and foolish ideals of what marriage is all about. This resulted in a decision back in February that we should separate. This was after two short marriage counseling sessions. <BR>Well, after we decided to go our separate ways, I could never seem to get my husband to sit down and work out the details of the separation. When I finally hit my wits end, he admitted that he wasn't ready to throw in the towel. Great, right? Wrong. Oh so wrong. I purchased books, Love Busters was one of them. We were supposed to read this book together to figure out how this marriage thing is really supposed to work. But I could never seem to get him to sit down and committ to reading the book or discussing its contents. This went on for a couple of months. Well the bomb finally dropped. I finally found out why he was having a hard time at <BR>a) working on counseling back in January<BR>b) working on reading and doing the work after we decided to try it once more.<BR>Her name is ANM, although I could give her a few new names of my own! She lives not too far from us. <BR>She was his personal 'counselor' when our marriage was on it's last leg late last year and earlier this year. That's why marriage counseling wasn't very helpful at first. <BR>Well during the course of their 'friendship' she became pregnant. This is particularly painful because my husband and I have tried numerous times during our marriage to conceive all to no avail. <BR>By the time I approached him about going our separate ways (this was before I knew anything about her) she was probably in her second month. So my husband proceeds to integrate this woman into areas of his life reserved for the title of wife. She was introduced to friends(people he thought were his friends) and spoke to family. This is all while we were supposedly working out the details of our not-so-urgent-to-him separation. <BR>Ultimately, their ill-fated, sick, foolish, adulterous relationship came to an end when she finally realized that he was not happy about fathering this child, that he wasn't so unhappy at home afterall, and that he wanted to try any and everything to make his marriage work.<BR>Once I found out about this relationship and the pregancy, (due in a couple of weeks) I confronted my husband and began asking the familiar questions....why, did you love her...etc.<BR>Every one of his answers seemed so neat and clean! You would've thought it was another immaculate conception! Maybe she got pregnant during one of their conversations?!?!? The man was in denial, and also so used to telling lies that he couldn't bring himself to be honest with me or himself. So I did the unthinkable. He had to go away on a trip so I called the young lady. We met and discussed several things...the lies he told her and myself, the details of their relationship, what her intentions are, what my intentions are, etc. It was a desparate, emotionally charged conversation, and to tell you the truth, I can barely recall all what was said. I'm not even sure if she asked me for forgiveness. But I made it clear that the grizzly wife I'm sure she imagined was a lie. A lie that he probably told, and I'm sure a lie she wanted to believe to justify her actions. I made sure she understood upfront that my intentions were to save my marriage. I made sure she understood that she hadn't heard from him in a couple of weeks because I asked him to break all contact with her. I don't know if anything positive has, or will result from that conversation, but I wanted to put a face with the name, and I wanted her to be able to understand just what she had done, slept with another woman's husband. I openly faulted him in front of her and told her that he was the one to break the committment to me, not her. But I also wanted to drive home the point that she broke some pretty serious 'though shalt nots' also. She claims to serve God, like I'm sure we all do, but, I dont' know....<BR>Since this drama has unfolded some positive things have happened in our marriage:<BR>**We've started counseling with a good marriage counselor<BR>**We've had our new wedding rings blessed<BR>**We spend all of our free time together trying to understand one another<BR>**We've decided to buckle down and work on getting out of debt. (The affair was just one of many manifestations of the dysfunction in our marriage)<BR>**We talk about the future.<P>I'm not sure what role either of us will decide to play in this child's life. He still has a very hard time accepting the circimstances and has admitted to me that he would have a very hard time at ever being able to feel proud about this child. At first I was committed to trying to support him in being a part-time dad, but I've had some time to think and feel my way through this a little more. Right now (this may change later) but right now, I am not willing to participate in this child's life. Here is my main reason why; both my husband and this woman knew what they were doing when this child was conceived. They chose to take one of the most important components of marriage away from me; my HUSBAND belonging only to me, body and soul. I had to share my husband with her by no choice of my own. I've bent, leaned and compromised as much as I plan to on this. I WILL NOT give up another important and sacred role in any marriage/family. That's the role of MOM. I'm just not willing to share that with another woman unless I choose to be in a relationship with a man that has children from a previous relationship. I truly hate to put my husband in this pickle, but I'm holding out on motherhood. I want that to be sacred. I don't want to share it with any other woman. <BR>Sorry for the length, and thanks for listening (reading).<BR><P>------------------<BR>To forgive is to set a prisoner free and discover the prisoner was you.

Hi Matthew 6:14,15<BR>No, you are not alone. In my case it was a coworker- actually his supervisor. You will get a lot of support here. I don't post much - not because I don't care - mostly because by the time I read the posts, great advice has already been given.<BR>Hang in there! God bless!

Thanks CD. I plan to attend regularly, and use this forum as a support system. It just helps knowing that the thoughts and feelings I'm having are normal.

Matthew6:14,15: I am amazed at how you have come to terms with the situation and how much you were able to put your feelings into words. I seem to have problems doing so.<P>This is my biggest issue around OC. That my H and this OW took such a special and as you said sacred thing away from me without my choice. My H and I have been together for 12 years and married for 4. We have a 2 year old daughter. This OC is due in February. I too think about the situation and feel like such a fool for staying. I've justified it by the fact that we've built so much and have worked so hard over the years to get where we are. We just bought our first home last year. Young daughter. So on. I can't say what our future has in store for us all I can do is live each day as it comes. Which is unlike me as I've always been a planner and worried about the future. <P>Please don't feel like a fool because you'll make me second guess myself. When you put so much time and effort and love into a relationship/marriage it's hard to just walk away. Even if you think it's what you should do. While I'm sure you think about the pain you feel every single moment of every single day you come home and look your H in the eyes and know he holds a very special place in your heart.<P>I've come to terms with what has happened and feel that I'm glad it happened. The stage of our marriage and the direction it was heading we would have ended up hating each other. It was a lesson I learned that I still loved my H deeply and want to be with him. And I took advantage of that. My H mostly but I gave up, even when I wasn't ready to. I hope my H feels the same. And I hope we now can take this "lesson" and build a stronger more meaningful marriage. It sounds like that's what's happening to you and your H. While the impending OC still hovers in your thoughts and how it will effect your life is unknown there is still a chance.<P>I hope the road you are on takes you to a better place and you can revisit your position on being a mother with this man. Although I wouldn't blame you if you didn't. I guess many people don't realize how much we as woman treasure the gift of being a mother to a baby with whom you've chosen to spend the rest of your life. If that something they don't realize then it's their loss. Good Luck to you. Keep us posted. And continue to reach out to us. There are some wonderful souls on this forum. Take Care of yourself. You are in my thoughts<P>------------------<BR>Lost Soulmate<P>"Character is doing what's right, when no one is looking"<p>[This message has been edited by lostsoulmate (edited September 20, 2000).]

No, unfortunately, we have found that there are far too many of us dealing with this. I'm sorry you are in the same boat but this is a great support group you have found. I'm so sorry for your pain.<P>In my case the XOW was a "friend" of ours, one who continued to pretend to be my friend not only through the affair but through most of her pregnancy as well. I'm sorry that you were betrayed by a supposedly professional counselor in this way. These situations continue to amaze me in how cruel they can be. I thought these things only happened in movies, or trash talk shows...UGH. But you CAN come out the other side!! You CAN!! My H and I are 2 years into a successful recovery. It is especially hard until the baby is born and the details of DNA, ch-support, etc. is worked out. <P>Keep posting. We are happy to share.<BR>Jenny

WELCOME<BR>This is one of the hardest groups to be a member of. But this place is wonderful. Everyone is hear to help and listen, and to comfort. I know you are going through a personal hell. But it sounds like you and your H have made great strides to strenghthen your marriage, congratulations on that area, it is a tough one. All I say is keep posting and visiting. We are all here for one another. god bless<P>babstr.

Since you struck a chord in me with the forgive and prisoner thing, I will tell you of my recent experience at healing. <P>I was set free, the captive in the prison, when God healed me of my emotional trauma. I also would like to bring the point about "body and soul with another" because soulish ties can be transeferred to your H and you as a result of that. The bible states that if one were to sleep with a prostitute, he becomes one with her and they are bind together. The man would get spirits of lust, etc.. Get a pastor or some church elders to pray to banish these soulish ties. I am also looking into this area.<P>Most pastors would agree that the responsibility to OC is only financial because to become involved would mean OW which could lead to something again in the future.<P>God Bless and Loves you and Set you Free<BR>weep

M:<P>Isn't incredible that we all manage find this place at the most critical time in our lives? <BR>I believe we are all led here by divine providence...and it never ceases to amaze me that we find a comraderie, albeit, a tragic and heartbreaking comraderie, through the miracle of the computer age to bring us together. <BR>Years ago, people in our nightmare were forced to face this devastation alone.<BR> <BR>In the big scheme of things, we are a tiny minority and the chances of ever finding another person who shared the same tragedy would be akin to finding a needle in a haystack. We would have been truly alone.<BR> <BR>Now we have the means to seek each other out and to help each other through this terrible, terrible time in our lives. Progress and technology can be a wonderful thing. I often wonder what would have become of me if I would have been forced to face this alone without all of you.<P>You've been led to the right place. Dr. Harley has developed an ingenius blueprint for couples to recover what they once had, a map to recovery and principles for us to employ and adhere to. The success of his methodology is remarkable.<P>Every 'newbie' is encouraged to read everything on this site; the Policy of Joint Agreement (to help you determine OC issues and marriage compromises), the 'Rules' of Honesty, Protection, Care et al., and to study all the principles explained on this site or in Dr. Harley's books.<P>Your faith in God will ground you and guide you; you're already ahead of the game with your strong, solid beliefs. This is something I struggle with and why I have taken so long to respond to you.<P>I read your post yesterday. I read Weeps posts and cringe, because, God and I are not on speaking terms right now. I am noticing some cracks in my armor, but I have a way to go before I acquiesce. I suppose it's because I know that God is all wise and merciful and understands and forgives..everyone; even me. I remember Saul-Paul and his raging against God and his despicable behavior and terrible mindset...and I know that his heart was turned. Perhaps my heart will be turned back someday.<P>At any rate, welcome. We all have our particular struggle; i.e. trust issues, resentments, confidence issues, jealousies (my personal favorite), among a myriad of other problems we all contend with here. When I came here over a year and a half ago, my rage/anger and deep despair almost had me down for the count. I didn't think I would survive this, nor did I think I would ever be the same. Well, I will never be the same, never-ever, but, I am surviving this. And I have God to thank (even though we're not getting along right now) and this site.<P>Come here often. Post often. Offer advice and guidance and empathy and receive far more than you give...it's amazing how much more I get back after I mouth-off to each of you telling you how to conduct your life (hahahaha)<P>Welcome, M. Glad you found us...I know you are a valuable component to our unique little group.<P>Catnip =^^=

Dear =^^= or =##= (is it a good cringe? )<P>Hey, it was just last week when I couldn't even worship in church, I went there to meet up with my family, get baby to meet godparents, and would go midway through the service.<P>I even told God that I am angry at Him now. I begged God for his help and grace during D-Day and asked God for His forgiveness for my failings (which were anger, hatred, unforgivenss, violence, etc). I know that God is faithful, and He was there all the time even as I tried to ignore His presence because I didn't want to forgive my WS NOW, I didn't want to quit smoking YET, I didn't want to many things.<P>But, boy was I emotionally tortured and I really couldn't get the rage out of me; every time I see my WS, I just hit him or scratch him, it was so bad. If you like, you can cringe some more when you read my reply to Cjack under General Questions on Sept 18.<P>God Bless and Loves You =##=<BR>weep

Welcome Matt 6:14,15: I hope that the sun continue to shine on your relationship. I too am having about the same situation, but I have two OC's to contend with. I have basically taken myself out of the situation, the only way I feel that I can deal with it and not go mad.<BR>Weep, I too was told about the verse in the bible concerning laying wit a harlot. But it was explained to me like my husband was stilled, like married to the harlot. Which I told her that different people read it different.<BR>With my situation I am hard thinking that maybe I need to separate for a little while from my H in order to deal with it.

Amen...first welcome Matthew. I am sorry you even have to be here but it is a great support group. It sounds as though God has given you much strength through all this. Amen.<BR>Let me say if it werent for my willingness to break down and ask God for help Id probably be in an asylum now. I only recently found this group and the drama had come to a slow row instead of the rollarcoaster I was on. God is my stength, my patience, my forgiveness...my everything. He is my all. I still have many issues I stuggle with (worldly vs. Godly views) but I know who will win in the end. Not sure really why I keep putting it off.<BR>I can say however my H hated God when this all happened. He believed in God...just hated him. He has seen what God has done for me and now has softened. He has even gone to church several times and has talked about wanting to read the Bible together. Hasnt happened yet but we are, by Grace, a step closer. By the Grace of God...there go I.<BR>Matthew may God Bless You and welcome. I hope you find the comfort you need here.

Matthew6;14,15:<P>I hate to say welcome to our group because it's not a group any of would want to be in, but we're so glad you found us...and Welcome just the same. I really can't add anything better to what these other members have said. God is obviously and gloriously a part of your life. AMEN!! HE is the center and guiding light in mine and I'm so grateful because I couldn't have made it through this hell without HIM. My faith in HIM continues to grow daily. I am truely working on finding inner peace because then I'll find outter peace and move forward. I have and it feels better...not great...but better. This board has truely been a Godsend for me. I have read many posts and gotten good advise. More than anything, though, It has given me so much solice knowing that I'm NOT alone. I don't have to feel ashamed (ironic because my H is the one who did the betraying and I felt shame because of the OC and the entire situation...so does he though). It's like when a woman is raped, she is the victim, but she still feels the "shame"..I don't understand it...don't know if I ever will. But I do know that God does have angels and I believe that they guided me to this board...which I look at as a tool working for God. HE does get a little busy and He simply enlists all the help HE can get *smile*. Anyway, we ALL know the pain of that type of betrayal. You've come to the right place. Sorry you're here under these circumstances, but I'm sending you a welcome Hug all the same. God Bless you<P><BR>Comfort

Matthew 6:14,15<P>I was deeply moved by your story. I can only imagine the kind of emotion that there must have been in the meeting with the OW. I have longed to sit down and talk to the OW in my life and to have those same questions answered. I have longed to hear the lies that were told to her but, as you said, to make it clear that she would not be able to break the bond of our marriage.<P>The OC in my life was also conceived while my H and I were desperately trying to have children of our own. That is a hurt that I still remember with painful clarity. <P>You put my feelings in words so well. I have not been able to define what I have been feeling about the OC but when you said that motherhood should be sacred between the H and W unless you choose to parent children from a previous marriage -- that described it perfectly for me. I am not willing to share motherhood with this person who violated my life.<P>I hope that we can all help you through your time of trouble. None of us have all the answers but sometimes it is so wonderful to know that ... you are not alone ...<P>Welcome.<P>- Heavenly

Dear IN THE SOUTH <P>It is found in 1 Corinthians 6:16. <P>The pastor explained that they are bind now, meaning married as in one flesh, and soulish ties are established as a result of the sex. These can be transfered to the wife. (Add to that the others that the OW slept with!).<P>The problem with WS is that he doesn't think much of a deal but after the healing ministry, I think he believes that it can be true and that our body is the temple of God. I will pray that he asks for help in that area. <P>I will need to seek help in this area as well.<P>Let me know if you found any books or advice. Thanks.<P>

Dear Matthew,<P>Just read your story and wanted to extend<BR>best wishes for you. Everyone gives such<BR>good advice here - which you've already<BR>found out. Hope things are going well for <BR>your marriage. You made me laugh when you<BR>said "maybe she got pregnant during one of<BR>their conversations!" A sense of humor can<BR>take you far along. I'll be thinking of you<BR>and wishing you the best.

I'm a newbie and I would just like to say that I pray that you all will be blessed! I have the utmost respect for all of you for your courage and strength through this difficult time where most would just crumble. <P>I too am in this situation and it is a true test of your emotional strength! <P>Matthew6:14,15, when I read your post, it was like deja vu! We were experiencing problems in our relationship before the A and communication was at an all time low. After reading Marriage Builders, I understand that there were emotional needs that were unmet that played a part in the A.<P>Two years ago, I put on alot of weight and my self-esteem hit the bottom of the barrel. I was depressed and didn't feel attractive let alone "sexy" anymore. This went on for over a year and H tried to tell me how he felt but everytime he did, I was on the defensive. <P>We'd fight and argue for months until we decided to take some time apart from each other. During that time, we talked on the phone and my ears started to open up and truly hear what he had been trying to tell me all along. H told me that I wasn't affectionate anymore-I didn't touch him, hug him or even hold his hand. He said we were beginning to feel like platonic friends.<P>I got that message loud and clear, but little did I know it was too late! We continued to talk and in January we got back together-I had lost weight and was feeling much better about myself and us and so was H. <P>But I began to notice that he was pre-occupied by something. His job performance was slipping, he was depressed, etc (I guess guilt will do that to ya!). <P>It wasn't until the week this C was born that I was even told. When the OW told him she was preg, he was in complete denial and refused to believe it until a DNA test was done. He was also disgusted at the fact that she decided to have the C in the first place since the C was the product of a one-nighter.<P>My mate and I have no C of our own so this was a serious slap in the face that he created a C with someone else! That crushed me. <P>This is still very new as the C was born in July. I have mixed feelings about how I feel about the C. On one hand, I feel that H should accept his responsibility in creating this life, but on the other hand, if I never have to lay eyes on this C or it's fleabag mother I would be happy as a clam!<P>He's got mixed feelings about how to handle the C as well being that he was a C of a single mother himself. H has no relationship with his father which I know is one of the reasons this is pulling him in the direction to not support his own. <P>H told me that OW was upset about having to "prove" this C was his and told him that he didn't have to worry about it-that she would take care of the C all on her own. She said she doesn't want anything from him-honestly, I don't believe a word she says! <P>Currently, we're not together-I told H that I need some time to sort this out. I've been doing alot of praying and soul-searching to deal with this. There are days I think we can beat this and be a stronger couple, and there are days I feel that I must be a fool to even consider staying with him after this. <P>For right now, I just need to focus on myself and to heal and get back up on my two feet. <P>I'm so glad I found Marriage Builders and this Forum of Spiritually & Emotionally Strong Women!<P>Thanks for letting me know that I'm not alone! <P>