My dear Zebra,<P>I have never been so deeply moved by a post on this forum as I was by your reply to lsb last night. I have told you before of my admiration for you and your ability to allow the OC into your lives. But, you have put the issue of whether or not to accept an OC into the best perspective I have yet seen. I encourage everyone to read it, particularly if they are ambivalent about contact.<P>In my own case, as you know, we do not have contact. And because I am a devout Catholic this is an issue that causes me immeasurable conflict and guilt. But, you have put clearly in your post the reasons that stopped me all these years from allowing contact.<P>I could never accept that the OC was separate from the OW. In my eyes, whenever he saw the child, he would be thinking of the "love" he had shared with the OW. I was afraid that the love I would see in his eyes for the child would include the OW. That was a pain that I could not bear to experience.<P>My H tried to convince me that there was nothing between him and the OW anymore, but my own controlling nature would not allow me to believe it. I have been the selfish one all these years. I wanted to keep my life exactly as it was, when, of course, it could never be.<P>My H told me that he tried to ignore the child and he succeeded for a very long time until the OW got in touch with him because of something she needed for the child. <P>My H sounds very much like yours. He is a wonderful father to our two kids. I never believed that men could feel the same way that we do about the children they father. The OC, whether I like it or not, is just as much a part of him as our two children.<P>I am truly blessed because in all this time, he has not resented me for my feelings. But he does know that I am being honest when I say I cannot accept the child. He knows that I am not simply punishing him. I think that has made a difference to him. <P>I am considering a compromise by allowing him to have regular visitation with the child, at a third party location, without me. The OC looks very much like a mixture of my H and the OW and it cuts too deep just to look at her face. <P>But, as you said so well, I feel very strongly that my H should not be denied his flesh and blood because of my emotional inability to cope with the curve that life has thrown me.<P>Thank you, Zebra, for giving me much food for thought and reflection. I am so glad that you are finding your way and making your own happiness and I pray that one day soon I will do the same.<P>love<BR>- heavenly

Dear heavenly,<BR>Please don't be upset by my response here. I guess maybe I am just playing "devil's advocate," but I can't help but be troubled by the idea of a husband having third-party-location visitation without the wife involved. Perhaps I am totally off base with this, but I see that as a bit cruel to the oc. Wouldn't it say to the oc:<BR>1. Your father has a life totally separate from you that you don't count enough to be part of.<BR>2. You must be a really big freak of nature that is so completely horrifying that your father's wife (and your half-siblings)can't even stand to set eyes on you.<BR>3. Even though your father loves you enough to take the time to visit, he doesn't want you to "really" be part of his everyday life in any way.<P>I completely understand when women choose to have no contact with the oc. Really I do. And i totally agree that if you can't handle seeing the oc, your needs come first in the marriage. And I truly believe that the needs of a child born outside of the marriage are secondary to the needs of the primal family. Which is why I agree that in lots of cases, everyone is better off with no contact at all.<P>But I guess I just worry that having visitation under those circumstances really doesn't do anything good at all for anyone involved. I can't think that it would do any good for the marriage because the wife would always resent the time the h spends with the child. The h would eventually feel more and more rotten as he develops a bond with a child that he can only see for a couple minutes by himself. The more he grows to love oc, the more he will resent not being able to "bring it home" to share with his family. Resentment doesn't take long to develope into full-blown bitterness. For a h and wife to lead completely separate lives in even a few respects may be detrimental to the marriage in the long run. I just think that h and wife need to share something as fundamentally powerful and emotionally taxing as parenting is. Or choose to share in the choice of not-parenting, however the case may be.<P>And the oc, who is going to have self-esteem problems no matter what, is going to be even worse off in being given this "glimpse" into "what could have been" had only the circumstances of birth been different. I do not think that it is cruel for a father not to ever see the illegitimate child, because then the child will never know what he/she is missing. And I do not think that it is cruel for a child to become part of the h's primal family, should the h and wife decide to extend those priveleges to the oc. neither of those situations is ideal for the oc, of course, but each has at least the potential for merit in the long term. But I do think that a father seeing the oc only by himself and without any inclusion into the family can never have any positive effects on the oc's life. In fact, I really can't help but think that it would be extremely detrimental to the child in the long run and I see the possibility of serious long-term psychological damage from it. If the father has no contact, the child can easily dismiss it by saying "Well, that must mean my father is a jerk. It has nothing to do with me." But be given time "on the sly" the child may rationalize it by saying to himself, "My father is obviously a caring person for trying to be involved in my life. That means there must be something wrong with ME that makes it impossible for him to want me in his life more regularly." A child can't possibly have the emotional maturity to conceive that the reasons for the father's family's lack of involvement don't reflect directly on him/her.<P>I am the first to admit that sometimes it is very difficult to remember that the oc is a real flesh and blood child with feelings and emotions just like my own children. But when I think about one of my boys being put into a situation like that - seeing his father now and then but being permanently on the sidelines of his life, always on the outside looking in - it just makes me want to cry. That is why I would never agree to h's visiting the child unless I was also fully committed to being part of it. The only purpose visitation would serve if I wasn't involved would be to sooth my h's feelings of guilt - and that, to me, isn't reason enough to participate in a child's life.<P>Heavenly, please don't be angry with me for giving my point of view on this. i sincerely am not picking on you at all, or putting down your idea. i am just commenting on it the way I would with anything that strikes me the way this did. maybe I am totally off-base with my opinion, and I hope that if you think I am, you will promptly correct me <P><BR>Please write back,<BR>donna<BR><p>[This message has been edited by cdcollins (edited March 21, 2001).]

cd, you brought up some very good points. this is just one of the many reasons that if the wife and husband aren't in agreeance on seeing the OC, that it is best that there be no visitation. i think that if there is visitation, then the child should be fully accepted. and if that can't be done, i think it is more detrimental to the child to have a "part-time" father, than not know the father at all.<P>just my opinion , in this ever changing board where now if we don't see OC we are the bad guy.<P>happy_girl

I totally agree with Happy Girl. <P>I feel at least Heavenly is trying to include the oc for her husband's sake. There is real fears of the husband seeing the oc on the side without the wife knowing. No matter what happens I don't think the oc will ever feel completely included. I know that is really sad, but in these siutations there isn't much room for correction. I am sure we all have great arguments for why we have made the choices that we live with. <P>babstr.

Dear Happygirl,<BR>I hope that you have never gotten the impression that I think that people who choose not to have contact with the oc are "bad guys". Because I certainly don't. I definitely understand why a lot of women choose not to see oc and I have nothing but the greatest admiration for them. I also respect those who do choose visitation. I just wish that I was as clearcut on the whole subject as most people here seem to be. At this point, I still waver back and forth a lot on what I really want to do. I am pretty sure that I will handle visitation ok, but I would be lying if I said that i didn't still pray that ow's boyfriend jumps in and marries her and adopts oc so that we could end this whole thing once and for all.<P>But as far as me thinking that anybody who chooses not to allow contact is a "bad guy"? Oh, never, never, never would I say that!<BR>-cdcollins

Wow, after so many days of a slow and boring forum to see all these posts today surprised and made me glad to see you are all still around and glad to read your posts. Heavenly, I too enjoyed reading Zebra,s post to ISB actually last night Zebra brought it to my attention over the computer and I read it and told her how wonderful I thought it was. As many of you know my H and I are in the process of starting visitation after not seeing the oc for the first five years of his life. The supervised visits have been completed and my H had his first unsupervised visit last Sunday. My family is not permitted to be there for the next two months, this is court ordered. I have accepted that and feel it is better in the long run and will give all involved a chance to get used to everything. I must say that my thoughts change even today as to whether or not we are doing the right thing by bringing the oc into our lives. No matter which way you look at it there is going to be a down side and an up side. All involved will get hurt and all involved will benefit in the long run also. There really is no right or wrong anwers and there really are no bad guys or good guys in the what ever way all chose to go. I commend those who chose to include the oc but I would never put down those who could not. For years I would not consider it and my H was behind me and told me he would go with my wishes. Now I have changed and feel I should try to include for all the childrens sakes. I am putting my feelings second not to the oc's but to all the children, mine and the oc. I decided I could not live with the secret and the fear that they would find out someday and resent me for it. So my decision has a lot to do with worrying about the future. And yes I used to get sick to my stomach just looking at the oc picture and have to say I am now much happier that as he has gotten older he looks a lot less like my h and more like his mother. I am not really happy about all this but am comprimising for what is best for all involved including myself. My children are the most important thing to me and I truely believe my choice to be involved will help in our relationship as they grow and become adults. Thanks for reading this, hope it has helped in some way to see my views. GABi1116

cd, i am sorry if i seemed to attack you. i was speaking in general. the last comment being more my general feeling of not belonging here anymore. <P>i totally agree with you that if there is to be contact that the child should be accepted by the W, children, etc. i don't think there is any good middle ground. either there is no contact, or there is full contact. your post brought up all the reasons that if you decide to have contact, it should really be what you are ready for. otherwise the child suffers more because he actually KNOWS what he is missing.<P>as a child, my dad was married once to a lady with a daughter. her dad was rich, and when she went to see him he took her to all these great places and bought her tons of stuff. well, we were poor and she would come home with all these new clothes, toys, etc and me and my sister would feel left out, etc. and that is exactly how i imagine the OC would feel knowing that their dads other children get all this on a daily basis, and they get to see him in private, etc.<P>anyway, just wanted to make sure you knew that my post wasn't directed at you. i feel like there is a movement to convert those of us who don't have contact with OC to have contact. which is impossible for some of us because our H's have no want to have contact anyway. i try to be supportive of those who are in contact and respond if i have advice or something. but i would never try to tell them to stop seeing the OC. i have my opinions on it, which i do voice when we are "debating" the topic, but not directly to a poster.<P>i am just stressed and emotional and maybe am taking things the wrong way, but i think it is best for me and everyone else if i don't come here anymore. i feel like i am in the out crowd, where i once was just one of the gang.<P>i am thankful for everyone i have met here, and for all the help i have gotten over the past 10 months or so. i have learned a lot, and am glad i know i am not alone.<P>love,<P>happy_girl<P>

heavenly, i know you have struggled with this for so long. i did for a long time, but i don't anymore. you are a wonderful loving person, and i know god loves you and accepts you as you are. there are things that we sometimes can't accept, you didn't create the situation, if you are able to accept visitation, etc with the OC, it is an added bonus. it doesn't make you a bad person not too. <P>i do think that it is worse for the child to not be fully accepted by the family. cases where the H wants involvement and the W can't deal with it are difficult to decide what to do. your case is a little different, the OC already knows her father and has established a relationship with him. if you can compromise, and feel comfortable with it, then i see no problem with it. every situation is different, and generalizations don't always work for everyone. it is so easy to generalize, i do it all the time. there are always exceptions to any rule.<P>anyway, i just hope you know that you are a sweet person, and god loves you. and i know he understands this ongoing struggle you have had on accepting the OC.<P>happy_girl

Well, like gabi said, i am happy to see that everyone has awakened from their long sleep! This will be a bit long, but I have lots to say.<P>cd, happy, babstr - i am not offended at all by what you said. i know that children are your specialty and you are thinking about their best interests. The OC will DEFINITELY have self esteem problems -- that is unavoidable and as Happy_girl said, it is not a situation that I created. <P>She does know that her father has a family, and she already wonders what is wrong with her that she has been "dumped". Happy_girl and Babstr were here last year when i agonized over this and, like Zebra, i wanted to give my H a Christmas present -- full visitation and acceptance of the OC. But I simply could not do it. I also do not intend to start something that i am not confident i can finish.<P>Babstr is right, i was only considering a half-hearted arrangement because at least i felt my H would have some peace of mind. I can deal with the time he would spend away from our family, but I could not deal later on with having my H feel that he missed his child's life because of me. And, if he has been sneaking to see her -- that is a real possibility. Right now he says that there is no resentment, but i am concerned about the long run.<P>gabi also highlighted one of my deepest fears -- that my own children will find out and they will be deeply hurt by the discovery. I also fear that the discovery would destroy their relationship with their father. if they could be told now and see that we are handling the situation, then maybe they would be able to handle the knowledge better. <P>gabi also hit on my exact feelings that -- there is no right or wrong -- there will be an up side and a down side. I am struggling right now with what will be the "least" down side for me.<P>I am just at the point now where I have truly forgiven my H. Not the kind of forgiveness where you say it, but you continue to launch small sniper attacks whenever you get a chance. But the kind of forgiveness where I feel it in my heart -- that the drama is over and I want to get back to the business of living in my marriage. Maybe because of where I am emotionally right now, i am simply unable to think of admitting the OC with loving arms into my home.<P>But, I did want some happiness for my H. He did a bad, bad thing but the result is a living, breathing part of him and I think that deep in his soul he wants to keep contact. <P>The OW has a number of issues that makes my H worry about how the OC will be raised. He hates the fact that she is being raised in a dangerous neighborhood. The OW has already been robbed in the street. The OW's parents are born-again Christians (she lives in their two-family home) and they talk about the OC being like a curse from God because of the sins of the OW. The OW has now rededicated herself to God and won't even let the OC go to birthday parties because that is the "devil's temptation". So, I understand why my H worries about the OC.<P>Isn't it amazing that wayward spouses pick women who are as far away from them in personality and beliefs as possible to have affairs with? Then, when the OW gets pregnant they lament about how unfit she is. I guess they weren't thinking of this when they were seeing if the OW fit?!<P>I thought that a neutral zone for visitation might be the solution for us both. I take your advice very seriously and I see that I need to think some more about my plans and talk with my H as well.<P>I have something else to say which I will post separately right below this one.<P>thanks all of you wonderful, strong, sensible women. we really should rule the world ...<P>love<BR>- heavenly<BR>

Happy_girl and everyone on the forum,<P>Changed my mind - I am going to post a new topic.

Heavenly , I do have one thing to mention about allowing your H visitation and having him be away from your family during it. As I said in my last post my h has visitation for the next month ,away from us, his family, because of court order , ect. I thought I would be okay with this for a while , only until the end of April. Well this past Sunday was okay, not great not terrible just okay. I did count the minutes and checked the clock quite a few times to see how much longer until he was back. He was alone with the oc the ow was not with them it was unsupervised. I did feel alittle jealous I guess because we were home and he was out at an arcade and aquairium. I hope this feeling gets less and less as the weeks pass. I felt almost childish because of how I was feeling. Well just something to think about. Sometimes I wonder if thinking too much makes it worse. Gabi1116

Dear heavenly,<BR>I was struck by your comment that h's pick a woman who is the total opposite of their beliefs and personality and then lament that they are unfit. (I owuld have done the "quote" thing but I haven't mastered that skill yet!)<P>that is so true. In fact, I think in a lot of cases, they purposely pick somebody who is totally the opposite of their WIFE. The ow in our case is like the "anti-cdcollins". you know how in Superman comics there is a bizarro world where everything is opposite - good is evil, up is down, right is wrong....it's like my h picked the bizarro-me to have an affair with. I think that maybe he really wanted to get my attention in a big way or something. Well, it certainly worked!<P>I had never thought to much about that until you brought it up. More to think about...<BR>cdcollins