Hello,

this thread developed out of the "Every Man's Battle" thread at the EN, and I was adviced to take it here.

I feel now that we have kids, faith should become a more active part of our life. Maybe we can find a religious group we can join and feel comfortable in, maybe go to services and do stuff with the boys there.

Problem is that I've distanced myself from religious institutions for several reasons:

- In my teens, I was very involved with the YMCA. I felt safe there, and we spent a lot of time together. But when opinions and beliefs started to form and were exchanged, there were a lot of people that passed judgments on me and some others whose thoughts were "too liberal". Being a teenager and trying to find guidance and fit in, these judgements (along the lines of "You are no Christian/no good Christian if...") deeply confused me. I felt I always came short, like praying not intensely enough, not reading the Bible right etc.
Only when I became stronger and more mature as a person, I was able to stand to my opinions and beliefs and still consider myself a Christian. I understood that these people didn't have the right to judge or doubt me. In hindsight, I had to admit a lot of those who were supposed to offer me guidance were hypocrites.

- Today, I still believe in God but I'm not sure if there's a religious group out there where I'm "allowed" to keep my rather liberal opinions in a Christian context. The politics of the big churches all contain elements I cannot agree with. I tell myself, though, that not all people have to agree with the official opinion and still be part of a religious group, that basically the people, not a dogma, make a church a comfortable place.

To me, God lives in my heart. I feel I don't need a whole set of detailed rules I have to follow to prove I'm a believer or a good Christian. I think God guides me and helps me make the right decisions.

There's a lot more I have on my mind but for now, I'll leave it at that.

I'd just like to engage in a discussion about how you see yourself in your faith, what the Bible is for you, how you see God. This would help me rethink how I can live my faith, maybe challenge some of my opinions that for quite a while haven't been challenged.

Thanks for joining!

I grew up in a church with very black/white thinking on all subjects, so I was "wrong" if I did not agree with everything stated, and was beaten up for questioning anything, all that crap. The church was, IMHO, long on dogma and short on grace. I left any form of church for many years, although I still believed in God.

When we had kids, I did want to find a church that fit. I DID want a church that was solidly Christian, but one that let you use the reasoning abilities God gave you. Visited a bunch of churches, and ended up Methodist (altho not thru the first Methodist church I tried; it was a bust). The Methodists have what we call a quadrilateral...a framework of 4 areas used to make moral decisions. The first and foremost is the Bible, but tradition, experience and reason are all part.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> tell myself, though, that not all people have to agree with the official opinion and still be part of a religious group, that basically the people, not a dogma, make a church a comfortable place.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Most of us Methodists would agree. There are certain basic things all Methodists believe as Christians--such as that Jesus is the Son of God, sent to redeem us--but there is a lot of leeway to make up your own mind about less-central things, and to respect that others may not agree on everything. So, overall, it fits me well.

I would encourage you to visit churches and find out more about what they believe and teach (most if not all major denominations even have websites that will list their major tenets and beliefs). If you like what you read about a denomination, try visiting one of their churches, maybe more than one if the first is not a good fit.

I agree that God lives in my heart, and that I am guided by Him (as long as I am willing to step out of the way and let Him!). However, the more I work a being a better Christian, the more I find that fellowship with other Christians helps me grow. So, I do believe in finding a church that nourishes your spiritual growth; it is worth it.

Kathi

<small>[ October 29, 2003, 09:27 AM: Message edited by: kam6318 ]</small>

Hello GLB,

Your story sounds very familiar. Many couples, my wife and I included, return (or start going) to church about the time their children start arriving. For my wife and I, we were both raised in Christmas and Easter families...we "belonged" to a church, but only went on Christmas and Easter. Other than when us kids were driven to church, dropped off, and then picked up. My parents, while I'm sure they meant well, never set a great example that way. But they tried to show their Christian beliefs in other, everyday ways.

You asked/stated:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'd just like to engage in a discussion about how you see yourself in your faith, what the Bible is for you, how you see God. This would help me rethink how I can live my faith, maybe challenge some of my opinions that for quite a while haven't been challenged. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How I see myself in my faith? I have been going to church regularly for over 15 years now. Been on all the different committees, taught Sunday School, play piano for service, etc., etc., etc. It wasn't until I had an "epiphany" a couple of years ago though that I really became a Christian. I now say, with absolutely no doubt, that there is a God, that He sent His Son to attone for our sins, and that there is the most wonderful experience awaiting us after this life. I feel, though, like I am still a "toddler" in my Christian life. I have so much to learn and experience. While my intentions may usually be good, my actions often fall short. So I see myself as someone who believes, is motivated, but is still learning. And I assume I always will be.

What the Bible is for me? Ooh...this one might get me flamed, but I'm going to be honest with you. IMO, and it is a topic we have discussed in an adult Sunday School class I go to, the Bible is the ultimate reference book. I see the Old Testament as a history. It records what happened to the Jews throughout history, and has wonderful stories that help people see what can happen in certain circumstances. It outlines basic beliefs/laws. But, most importantly, it prescribed/described the requirements for the Savior. It told us how we would know the Savior when He returned. And when He did, he fulfilled every prophecy/requirement mentioned in the Old Testament.

The New Testament is the writings, again IMO, that outline what a Christian life is supposed to be. Not just a religious life, or a Godly life, but a Christian life.

Now, to answer the real question I think you're asking...I think the Bible is divinely inspired, but written by Man. I do not agree with those who try and take every syllable literally. IMO anyone who says that they are living their life in complete compliance with the Bible is either misinformed or lying, simply because the Bible contradicts itself almost constantly. It is a tool, that God has provided us to use, along with our other tool...our brain.

How do I see God?

This is going to sound very "sixties, hippie-ish", but I believe that God Is Love. If you want to understand this, read 1John 4: 7-21. The reason I believe this has to do with the "epiphany" I had that I mentioned above. God is within each and every one of us.

Hope this helps. Maybe we'll talk some more after you read through the other posts.

Oscar

P.S. Not that it matters, but I, too, am a Methodist. And I agree with everything Kathi said.

Hello, GLB.

I just wanted to let you know that I know this is here now and will possibly be back in the next few days.

I made a last minute decision to finish a project. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Thanks for starting this.

Petals

Hi, yet another Methodist here (I'm a Lay Preacher).

I'd say that the Bible is the primary witness to God's revealing of himself to us. And especially it's the prime witness to Christ. That's not to say that no other book is inspired or even that the whole Bible is inspired in the same way. The Bible contains lots of different types of material and it needs to be read for what it is; we shouldn't treat poetry in the same way as prose, for example.

In the UK Christians were at the forefront of the campaign to abolish slavery and based their view on the Bible. But actually there's no specific condemnation of slavery in the Bible, even several passages that accept it. But those people thought that the real message mean they had to be against slavery.

St Paul instructs that women should cover their heads in Church but few churches follow this now.

These examples show, I think, that the art of Biblical interpretation is much more complicated than turning up individual verses and following them.

Hope this is some help.

what you have written is very nice. i agree with you totally. i have no idea who you are or what denomination you attend, but many people could learn many things from what you have posted here. there is no person who can tell me what to do or how to do it when it comes to religion. i know i am a good person and i know i am a good christian. i believe in God and i speak with him often. i have faith he listens to me. many people will argue with you about the bible because they think their interpretation of the bible is correct. don't let anyone fool you. live a good clean life and use common sense when making religious decisions.

First, thanks for all your input.

Kathi, it was exactly this black and white scenario in my church back then that through me off. I believed then and believe now that there's a wide range of possibilities to believe and live a Christian life, and none of these can be judged by other human beings. "Grace" to me is the key word here, thanks for bringing that up.

So here goes a new question: What is God's grace to you all? Who is "entitled" to it?


Hm, to be honest, the important part about Jesus is not so much if he was God's son, and the virgin birth IMO is a metaphor to stress how special he was. Really important to me is that he was sent to us by God with a revolutionary message that's still true today. I guess I mean that the emphasis is more on what he has to say than on who he was, though this might be important to underline his "authority" as in being the Savior and not "just another prophet".

I guess I still have to open up a little to admit that fellow Christian can be there to inspire and not to judge me. I'm afraid to tell how I feel and how I believe and then be told that I'm "wrong" and don't fit in. I have to get over that.

OtG, you did read my question about the Bible right. I have problems with people who tell me things should like this or that because "it's how the Bible says". From what I know about the Bible - which is admittedly not too much and quite faded in memory - you can find a lot of quotes that - especially if taken out of context - will justify quite different opinions.
To me, the Bible is very much a historical document, as you said, and written by man. So I think sometimes we really have to get through to what it was that God did and meant to inspire these people to write it down - and who could claim they found the absolute truth? That's why one Christian group might find proof that homosexual relationships are a sin while a different group finds passages that prove it's not. (And no, I don't want to start a discussion on that now.)

It's curious, but just recently I read 1 John, 4, 7-21, and even quoted it, after years not reading in the Bible. This is a quote I can whole heartedly agree with and that sums it up who I believe God is.

Hm, seems like a Methodist gathering here <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . Here in Germany, the two "mainstream" churches are Catholic and Protestant. Of course, there are smaller protestant groups like Mennonites etc. but not a big Methodist church as I understand there is in the US or the UK. As we're moving to the UK soon, I might just look into that.

Thanks for your thoughts and I hope we can keep this going some.

I am a Spirit-filled Christian who strongly believes in the inerrancy of Scripture. Yes, it was written by men but was divinely inspired. Generations of people have tried to ban the Bible or prove it wrong. They are unsuccessful because that's an impossible task. Jesus stated "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall never pass away".

Jesus Christ is the only deity that died a horrible death by crucifixion, laid in the earth for 3 days, and rose again. Mohammad, Budda, and all other supposed "gods" could not claim this. The only way to shipwreck my belief in Christianity is to find Jesus' body. You find the body, I'll renounce my faith. The fact is the body is no longer there, as Jesus rose on the third day and now sits at the right hand of the Father.

It matters not the name over the church door, all those who accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior are brothers and sisters.

On the matter of mercy and grace, I need all I can get. There are many Christians posting in this forum who hurt as a result of poor decisions we have made, me being among them. I am to the point that "His grace is sufficient for me". My faith will not hinge upon whether or not my W returns to me. Jesus has not changed - His Word has not changed - His forgiveness has not changed - His healing has not changed.

I have dealt with many people in 14 years of law enforcement, 10 years of police chaplaincy, and nearly 30 years of being a Christian. I have yet to speak with anyone who regrets making the decision to follow Jesus. Unfortunately, I have spoken with many who regret rejecting Him. They have no peace, no confidence, no hope. Jesus is in fact the hope of the world.

God bless you all and TGIF!

Hello to all my MB brothers and sisters in suffering. You have asked for opinions! Here is mine for any who are interested...


I come from an agnostic/atheist family of origin. My parents both live "moral" lives and benefited from Christian upbringing themselves. They rejected the faith as young adults and raised us without mentioning God or faith or church, to the best of my memory.

I am a spirit-filled Christian now, have been for 13 years. Couldn't tell you in these pages all that God has done as Lord of my life and heart.


I believe that the God of this awesome far-flung cosmos could certainly create a perfect book--through the inspiration of certain fishermen, a doctor, tentmaker, taxcollector and various prophtets. The Bible is that book! It tells us what we need to know about Him and how we must live here in order to be fit for eternity with Him, when this test called "life" is done.

If we don't understand what He has written, let us not be too quick to blame the book or author...surely we are not so confident of our own brainpower as to think we might be lacking in comprehension, or blinded by our own desire to continue in our sin!

I have found that in reading the Bible, there are certain guidelines to follow that clear up seeming inconsistencies and incongruencies:
1) Pray for Holy Spririt guidance and wisdom.
2)Read everything in the full context in which it was written. Not just the sentence or paragraph, but the whole letter!
3)No scripture cancels out or contradicts another. If your understanding of one does so, look for another interpretation of one or both.
4)Remember Paul's warning in Galations 1:8 "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned." This eliminates the false teaching of extra-Biblical revelations.


Just some of my thoughts...keep seeking Him and you will be blessed!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What is God's grace to you all? Who is "entitled" to it?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">To me, it is his love and forgiveness, freely given. No one is "entitled" to it...it cannot be earned, as none of us could ever be "good enough" to earn it.

Kathi

want2Shine - Excellent post. Too many times, even as Christians, we try to rationalize the Bible or feel we can't accept it unless it can be scientifically proven (which it has, many scientists, scholars, and skeptics have tried to disprove it and instead became believers). The Bible and the Author must be accepted by faith. The understanding comes later as we mature in the faith and study the Scriptures. This is the reason some fall away from the faith. They chose to not apply themselves to discipleship and can't survive on their own, like lost sheep. I praise the Lord for my salvation every day. It's the only way I can cope with my present hurt.

Hello Again,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What is God's grace to you all? Who is "entitled" to it? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The word "entitled" is going to be a problem here. Entitled, in our "Great Society" has come to be synonimous with "owed". "I'm entitled to this or that" = "You owe me..."

So Kathi is right, no one is entitled. But we are all "worthy". No human deed can be great enough to earn the grace of God. But being a creation of God makes us worthy. God does not make mistakes, or unworthy people.

All are welcome. Anyone who accepts Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior will have God's Grace bestowed upon them. They do not earn it by their acts, it is freely given. Their life after receiving it should reflect their appreciation for the gift, and they should strive to live up to God's expectations. But no one earns it.

There are, in my Christian Education, three aspects of Grace:

Prevenient Grace: God loving us before we even know we need love or what it is. God loving us even though we don't know Him, or deny Him.

Justifying Grace: Accepting a relationship with Jesus Christ; a complete belief in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Sanctifying Grace: Preparing ourselves to be a place where God's love can reside.

These are not three different types of Grace, but three aspects of God's Grace; similar to the Holy Trinity. Three in one.

Oscar <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ October 31, 2003, 11:55 AM: Message edited by: OtG ]</small>

During my depression, I made some mistakes re: faith.

I did make some good decisions, but there were some things I concluded that were off-base.

I'm a fundamentalist. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I believe the Bible is God's inerrant Word, and I have always believed that, even when I was depressed.

I didn't doubt God's Word, but people's interpretation of it.

It surprises me the ACCURACIES that are in the Bible. But that's just me.

Anyway, the main thing to me right now is whether or not someone believes some things about themselves.

1. Do you believe in God?

2. Do you believe yourself worthy of His sacrifice, as worthy as anyone else?

3. Do you understand the value He has placed on you?

4. Do you agree that just one tiny little sin separates us from God's presence?

5. Do you believe in the necessity for salvation?

6. Have you prayed for Jesus to cover your sins, forgiving you and restoring you, so that you are fit to be in communion with God?

I think the mistake a lot of us make is forgetting that because God has given us value, we are worth a great price.

We start beating ourselves up, etc. I'm sure everyone knows of siblings who fight all the time, but let someone try to fight with one of them and the other is there, telling the intruder he'd better not do that again, even though the sibling just did the exact same thing.

God is kind of like that sibling, and even our negative words or thoughts are like the intruder's actions. The sibling treasures his brother or sister. No one better touch his treasure. He doesn't want us to drown in our self-hatred because He loves us so much.

So, that's my first inclination when we talk about beliefs.

I do think that some of this hinges on other parts of the discussion (like how literally we should take the Bible), but I think we've got to get that whole "God loves me, therefore I'm lovable" thing down before we can function as true Christians.

Well, that's a start.

Petals

Hi,

just wanted to let you all know that I'm still there and interested in this thread.

I just need a couple of days to think through your responses, then I'll be back.

Thanks!

I dont want to start a "Flaming party" so please, no arguments about being saved etc.

Someone referred to other faiths as "those other Gods" including Mohammad. This is wrong information. I am not Muslim, but many of my friends here in the US are. They do not believe that Mohammad is God. Mohammad is the last prophet who was divinely inspired and brought the word of God to the people of that part of the world in the form of the "Koran (or Quran).

Muslims believe there is only ONE TRUE GOD and refer to God by the arabic language name of "Allah". And yes, they believe in Jesus too. In fact, Jesus and Mary are in the Koran. But they do not believe that Jesus is God. God is God and those sacred holy people referred to historically in the books of all three main religions (Christian - Bible; Judaism -Torah; and Islam -Koran) were prophets delivering the word of God and how we should lead pious lives. Also, are the stories of Abraham, Noah etc and even the angel Gabriel.

So you see, we are not all that different in the world. I grew up Catholic in Ireland (98% catholic)!!. But I have always had an open mind. Through tremendous personal losses, including recent divorce I have been searching for faith again. Mass meant nothing for me anymore.

In these troubled times, I think we should focus on what our faiths have in common. I hate the attitude of "I'm right and you're WRONG". We wont know that until we die. One person cannot say another is better than they are. I went to an "interdenominational" church and liked the people in general. They all supported and helped each other very much. But I would never refer to another person that does believe in one true God as an "unbeliever" just because they are not the same skin color or speak a different language. So, I lost my sense of calm again. I have a problem with the "Trinity" part of things. ANd most people do not have a true understanding of it.

I am finding that where I likely fit in more, is in an "Interfaith" setting. I think before people criticize with the Im right-Youre wrong attitude, they should read the other Holy Books and be knowledgeable, therefore being able to debate the issues in a positive manner if they wish. We should seek to understand others. Live our lives morally and piously, help those in need, be thankful for what we have and provide for those who dont have. And pray to God and give thanks.

I did buy a Bible last year and have read many excerpts. Before, I thought it boring, as a historical document. But the trials and struggles of Abraham, David, Noah, Isiah, Job etc are written in all the Holy Books. We can learn how to handke difficult times and live our lives the right way and be confident that there is a heaven and that good people will be rewarded. We can also be aware that there is a Satan out there in whatever form, coaxing us to displease God etc.

What bothers me about Christianity is the merging of Christian ideals with the tradition of what were Pagan rituals of honoring Mother Nature in ancient times. Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny? Come On!! The red furry "Nic" is actually a demon beast in Scandinavian folklore!! And yes, there was a Nicolas that loved children, but what has that got to do with Jesus? Our holidays so closely tied with the seasons and Soltices?? Winter represented death, darkness and fear. Spring was when everything grew back. People worshipped the sun & moon etc. Do the research!! ANd I think that theological scholars have acknowledged that Jesus was actually born in the summer months.

Okay, I'll get off my high horse. You just caught me in the midst of my soul searching. I would say take your time and read the Holy Scriptures. Find what talks to your heart. Live your life according to what you discover in those books and not what someone else says you should. If there is not an Interfaith Council in your town, maybe you could start one? Invite people of another faith to your Church for an open house and explain what you understand. Return to their house of worship another time and strive to learn what they understand? It is the only way we will ever achieve peace in this earth.

May God Bless us all!

Against the Wind,

You seem to think that everyone who belongs to a major denomination blindly follows, or believes, everything put before them. That is not at all the case, at least in my experience.

The thing I like about the church I belong to is that it allows, and in fact requires, constant personal consideration and reflection of all things. It considers the Bible to be the greatest tool that God has provided for us, but not the only tool. He also gave us our brains. And our Free Will.

The issue of "Paganistic rituals" in the church is nothing new, either. The Nicean Conference, where the "Christian Church" was established in 300 AD, was presided over by a Pope that was a Pagan. The pagans, however, seeing that Christianity was on the rise, and not wanting to become a footnote in history, embraced Christianity, and basically merged the two. One example of this is that it was during this conference that the traditional day of worship changed from the Jewish standard of Saturday, to the Pagan day of worshipping the Sun, or Sunday.

Another strong source of confusion and discomfort that I see in the current church comes from only accepting certain documents as "Scripture", while other documents, of the same time and from the same group of followers of Christ, are labeled heretical. Many of us believe that this is only because many of these documents point out that individuals don't NEED a church to reach out to God. God is just as accessible to individuals as "churches". There are over 80 KNOWN gospels, yet we accept only four of them. WHY? Many were substantiated when the Dead Sea Scrolls were found, yet still they remain "forbidden". WHY?

Please don't think that because someone belongs to a major religion or denomination that they stop thinking. That is not at all the case. If you want proof of that, simply look at the Episcopal church right now, and the controversies that they are dealing with.

Oscar