Q. Is this a Christian board?

A. NO - Many of the people who feel most strongly about saving marriages are Christians but this is not always so. We all need to respect each other's views but must focus on saving and building marriages.


Q. Should we be "nice" to each other?

A. NO - We should be honest, respectful and courteous as sugested by Cerri. Woolly niceness is not what's needed in challenging situations and is not Christian love.


Q. Can we challenge each other's viewpoints, debate issues and offer advice, including advice that may not be what the recipient wants to hear?

A. YES - That's what a discussion board is for.


Q. Do we sometimes express ourselves badly or write something we later regret?

A. YES - This is human and if it's an occasional lapse can be forgiven.


Q. How should we deal with someone who consistently attacks other users and is clearly not on board with MB concepts?

A. (1) Answer them politely, (2) Ignore them until they go away, and then (3) Report them to the Moderators.


Q. Can Christians be a real pain, totally insensitive and condemnatory rather than preaching a gospel of good news, forgiveness and salvation?

A. YES - Sadly.


Q. Should we all "cut each other some slack"?

A. YES - People's anger and hostility usually means that there's a painful personal history.

Dear Love Saved,

I personally try to mix in a measure of support and consideration, together with reflections on perspectives in reality. If I preach, I try to put my preaching in a preaching context, instead of mixing preaching with my views on reality. When I make a suggestion, I try to let readers know that the suggestion has a chance of not working. I have really gotten pushy about some suggestions I have made, but fortunately the recipient usually took my pushiness in the right spirit.

Certainly in some categories, trying to save marriages might not always be supportive, such as in Divorcing/Divorced. I have gotten into debates on instituting Plan B, as to whether the Plan B was directed at saving a marriage, or more for protectng the proponent of Plan B.

I think the Christian principles of forgiveness, repentance and attonement are not discusssed as often as they might apply, in our posts.

Thanks for your thoughtful post. Cerri is well respected, but I do not recall posting in consort with her.

Posting is therapeutic

Quipper
Husband of 28 years, raised 2 challenging kids, still struggling

lovesaved, Quipper,

Interesting topic! It very easily could apply to our churches and other area of our lives as well as this board. We should be a living testamony of the WORD , but too often we are dogmatic in our views. What I wish and what the WORD says doesn't always agree.

Quipper are you a Minister of the Gospel other than the testimony of your life? I was wondering because of some of your other post.

lovesaved,

Nice post. I think you should post it on some of the other "boards", though, too. I wonder how many people come over to this corner very often.

Someday I have to come over there and explore my "Wesleyan" roots. My ancestors came from Marlowe (late 1600's), and I'd like to check that out some time, as well.

Oscar

P.S. Go ahead and keep "W" as long as you like; I don't want him back anytime soon. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Dear Terriana,

I have enjoyed your responses to posted problems. of others. I encourage you to post your ideas to more problem threads.

One of the positive processes that occurs on the MB boards, is that we bring in our preconceived expectations and limitations, which become challenged through discussion here. Hopefully, re-evaluation of our expectations and limitations occurs, and we make decisions to try new changes, that hopefully make things better in our marriages.

I have not made a commitment to post from only one perspective. I try to post from a perspective that seems to me, to provide meaningful input to the individual posting a problem, or a hypothetical. I have some training as a minister and a counselor, and I have done some research on religion. I feel comfortable challenging clergy, because I have access to deeper research, and I have training in research. Sometimes I will offer a challenge, that if someone will show me research that indicates my position is incorrect, to cite me their research and I will find research to contradict their research.

I try to be intellectually honest, but you may find me on opposite sides of any debate, depending upon what I feel would be of benefit for the marriage of the individual posting.

One value of the Bible is that we can extend Biblical principles to our daily lives and decisions. Most Christian religions have interpretations of the Bible, which paritioners are advised to follow. There is often a difference between our wishes, and the principles that we have accepted as correct for us to follow.

Are there any particular principles that are hindering the fulfillment of your wishes? Through discussion, it is sometimes possible to more clearly define the important principles we wish to follow, so that we can better meet genuine desires and wishes.

Blessings,

Quipper,
Husband of 28 years, raised 2 challenging kids, still struggling.

Quipper, I having a really hard time understanding how your views on the bible and your views of pornography fit together. How does that work?

Dear Star.

The Bible is silent on pornography. I encourage couples to make wise decisions on the use of errotic images in their marriage. I encourage women, or anyone, coming to MB, with a religious or ethical block to enjoying porn with their spouse, to re-evaluate the underpinings of their block.

You are such an experienced poster, that I would really hesitate to give you ideas on how best to handle errotic images for your marriage.

I personally enjoy viewing errotic images with my wife during foreplay and love making. I am sure I have read your opinions, but your exact position does not come to mind. I threw out some general ideas in a recent thread under Emotional Needs.

Blessings,

Quipper
Husband of 28 years,raised 2 challenging kids, still struggling.

Quipper the Bible is NOT silent on matters of pornography. Jesus clearly stated "If a man (not gender specific) looks upon a woman
(again either or) with lust, he has already committed adultery in his heart."
I would assume you believe that adultery is sin?

I think I had read some place before you saying that using porn and "lust" were different??

The Bible has much to say about sex ...... but always it involves the marriage relationship of husband and wife, and not a triangluar one.

The Bible is also "silent" on many issues that we as a society find VERY important today. ie emotional affairs, drugs, bad business deals, all sorts of issues. There may not be a "specific" scripture but there is always a principle to follow.

Bottom line, IMO, the scriptures can be very practical. As a Christian, I do not check my brain in at the door. Common sense and practicality and a good understanding of human nature is enough to tell us that
pornography in the bedroom may enhance a momentary sexual feeling,however, I believe the relationship will suffer long term, because of it.

DZZZ

Quipper,

I myself am not a bible scholar. I did find this about the bible and pornography:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Although pornography is not specifically addressed in Scripture, the principle (viewing/reading what's impure) certainly is:

Matthew 5:28 "If a man looks on a woman to lust after her, he has committed adultery with her already in his heart."

Psalm 101:3 "I will set no unclean thing before my eyes."

Philippians 4:7, 8 "Keep your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus... Whatsover things are pure... if there be any virtue... think on these things."

The word "pornography" comes from the Greek porneia, porneuo, and porne. Porneia is translated "fornication" in the King James Version (Mat 5:32; John 8:41; Rom 1:29; 1 Corin 6:9,13,18; Gal 5:19; Rev 19:2; etc.). Porneuo is the verb "to commit fornication," as in 1 Corin 6:18. Porne is translated "harlot" in Mat 21:31-32; 1 Corin 6:15; and Rev 17:5.

Ephesians 5:5 "For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God."

1 Timothy 1:10 "For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine"

Hebrews 13:4 "Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge."

Revelation 21:8 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

Revelation 22:15 "For without are dog, and sorcerers, and
whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."

Many lustful sins take place in the dark, in secret, but nothing is hid from God:

Hebrews 4:13 "All things are naked and opened to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do."

Numbers 32:23 "Be sure your sin will find you out."

More serious than other sins?
Pornography seems more disgusting than other evils.

1 Corinthians 6:18 "Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. "

1 Corinthians 6:18-20 "What? Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you ...? therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's."

'Just looking'?
Some would argue that looking at the naked human body is not evil, because God made it beautiful, and Adam and Eve were naked in the garden. However, that was before sin entered the picture.
"The eye is the window of the soul," as the saying goes. What we look at does affect us spiritually - and can cause us to sin. David "SAW" the woman naked, before he got ideas to sin with her. Jesus said that if a man "looks at a woman to lust after her, he has committed adultery with her already in his heart"; etc. The sin takes place even before the action is executed.
Scripture gives many examples of men being enticed by the sight of a woman. Shechem saw the woman before he raped her. David saw the woman bathing before he had sex with her. Judah saw the harlot before he had sex with her. It was the same for Samson, etc.

Genesis 34:2 "And when Shechem the son of Hamor the Hivite, the prince of the land, SAW HER, he took her and lay with her by force."

2 Samuel 11:2-5 "Now when evening came David arose from his bed and walked around on the roof of the king's house, and from the roof he SAW A WOMAN BATHING; and the woman was very beautiful in appearance. So David sent and inquired about the woman. And one said, 'Is this not ... the wife of Uriah the Hittite?' And David sent messengers and took her, and when she came to him, he lay with her... And the woman conceived; and she sent and told David, and said, 'I am pregnant.'"

Matthew 5:28 "but I say to you, that everyone who LOOKS on a woman to LUST for her has committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Genesis 38:2-3 "And Judah SAW there a daughter of a certain Canaanite whose name was Shua; and he took her and went in to her. So she conceived and bore a son and he named him Er...."

Genesis 38:15-16 "When Judah SAW HER, he thought she was a harlot.... So he turned aside to her by the road, and said, 'Here now, let me come in to you'; ...And she said, 'What will you give me, that you may come in to me?'"

Judges 16:1 "Now Samson went to Gaza and SAW a harlot there, and went in to her."

Judges 14:2-3 "So he came back and told his father and mother, 'I SAW a woman in Timnah, one of the daughters of the Philistines; now therefore, get her for me as a wife.' Then his father and his mother said to him, 'Is there no woman among the daughters of your relatives, or among all our people, that you go to take a wife from the uncircumcised Philistines?' But Samson said to his father, 'Get her for me, for SHE LOOKS GOOD TO ME.'"

Visual stimulation is more common in man than in woman, however. There's just one example in Scripture of a woman lusting after a man by SEEING him:

Genesis 39:7-12 "And it came about after these events that his master's wife looked with desire at Joseph, and she said, 'Lie with me.' But he refused and said to his master's wife, 'Behold, with me here, my master does not concern himself with anything in the house, and he has put all that he owns in my charge. There is no one greater in this house than I, and he has withheld nothing from me except you, because you are his wife. How then could I do this great evil, and sin against God?' And it came about as she spoke to Joseph day after day, that he did not listen to her to lie beside her, or be with her. Now it happened one day that he went into the house to do his work, and none of the men of the household was there inside. And she caught him by his garment, saying, 'Lie with me!' And he left his garment in her hand and fled, and went outside."

How can addiction to porn be overcome?
Giving in to lustful desires is a sign of spiritual weakness. Ephesians 6 tells us what armor to put on, to be "strong" in spiritual battle.
If you don't want to get slaughtered in battle, don't go dancing in the minefields. Former alcoholics don't hang out in bars. Fill that free time with a positive activity: Read a book. Sing a psalm. Call a friend. Visit a nursing home. Pray. As the saying goes, "Idleness is the devil's workshop."
Christians especially should not practice such sins, as we will be held to a stricter standard:

1 Peter 4:17 "Judgment must begin first at the household of God."

Luke 12:48 "To whom much (light) has been given, much (responsibility) will be required."

Is it possible to overcome this sin?

1 Corinthians 6:9, 11 "...such were (past tense) some of you. But now...."

Being tempted is not sin (even Jesus was tempted) - but giving in to it, or seeking it out, surely is.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As far as my own feelings about pornography. I do not think it is my place to tell people what to do in their bedrooms with consent between the two of them. Neither do I encourage people to use erotica or suggest that women are frigid if they will not....it is not my choice to make. I am not a Christian...I am however deeply spiritual, and I believe in God.

The problem with pornography from my perspective, is that it is produced by an industry that exploits the innocence of children, and the weaknesses of people for profit. The explosion of pornography on the internet has taken us far far beyond mere recreational erotica to the dregs of human sexual depravity. That is an industry I cannot support, without making it easy for people like pedeophiles to hide behind the 1st amendment. There is some evidence that pornography use can become addictive and impact marriages...there is overwhelming evidence that it is exploitive.

Dear Star,

I agree that many would find a basis for an extension to the idea of a precaution on porn from the passages in the Bible, but there is no direct admonition about porn in the Bible.

The term that I have used is prudish, for spouses who object to the enjoyment of errotic images in their marital foreplay. I use prudish to mean overly conerned wtih the aplication of overly strict moral princples. If you feel there is a better term than prudish, I would be interested.

People come to Marriage Builders with pre-conceived ideas of the roles of a husband and a wife. These ideas sometimes block the enjoyment or workability of the marriage. By encouraging posters to examine theri pre-cast ideas, to see if they can broaden their perspective to inlude more workable options for the increased enjoyment of one or the other partner, then MB is working.

I do not have a good answer for solving the
problems of an over-use of porn. Let me hear your suggestions.

The important thing, that we may be able to agree upon, is to provide an atmosphere where individuals feel comfortable posting thier problems, and considering a wide range of options. I certrainly have no problem with the purity option as an important option to consider.

I think Christ's teachings of forgiveness are being overlooked by many in the world, in trying to War, or Punish, or Change Regimes, or Fighting Terroism, or Fighting Crime. It might be better to find ways for these targeted people to find redemption through effective therapeutic programs is an un-met challenge, as alternative to killing and imprisonment.

Blessings,

Quipper
Husband of 28 years, raised 2 cahllenging kids, still struggling

<small>[ November 19, 2003, 04:28 PM: Message edited by: Quipper ]</small>

Here are your own words on another thread:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Some men have no problem cheating on their wives occasionally, and keeping it to themselves. You need to evaluate your own character and skills for keeping things in without guilt. If You are like me, and are not that good at it, I find it is a better rule to avoid doing anything I would need to keep secret. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess cheating is also not mentioned in the Bible, ignoring the fact that it is called "Adultry". Porn is mentioned in the Bible, they just didn't always use the same terms for it thousands of years ago. If you are looking for the word "pornography", you probably will come up empty.

Now, if you are telling me by your use of pornography you are not gazing on a woman and lusting after her, I ask you why you use it?

<small>[ November 20, 2003, 01:25 PM: Message edited by: *Takola* ]</small>

Quipper,

How exactly do you propose to use porn during foreplay? Is it used to enhance sexual feelings? The only thing I could think of, is to create more stimulus and arousal during foreplay. The viewer is stirring feelings of desire within themselves by viewing these type of images. Am I right? The images are used to create a stronger desire. If that isn’t what is happening, then what is? Isn’t lust a strong desire for something?


The The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language defines Lust as:
1. Intense or unrestrained sexual craving;
2. an overwhelming desire or craving
3. To have an intense or obsessive desire, especially one that is sexual.”

Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc. is very similar.
1. Pleasure. [Obs.] `` Lust and jollity.'' --Chaucer.
2. Inclination; desire. [Obs.]
3. Longing desire; eagerness to possess or enjoy; -- in a had sense; as, the lust of gain.
4. Licentious craving; sexual appetite. --Milton.
5. Hence: Virility; vigor; active power.

Is there any other definition I might have missed?

So, if that desire isn’t already there, and the images bring out that desire; then isn’t the desire really for the image and not for the partner? If someone is viewing it in secret, the desire is for the image and nothing else? It’s the image that is creating the desire (lust).

I do believe that both Diamonzzz and star are correct. The Bible “is not” silent on the issue of pornography.

Matthew 5:28 "If a man looks on a woman to lust after her, he has committed adultery with her already in his heart."

S&C

I started this thread snd its gone in a direction I didn't intend. That's an inherent feature of discussion boards.

star*fish wrote:
"As far as my own feelings about pornography. I do not think it is my place to tell people what to do in their bedrooms with consent between the two of them. Neither do I encourage people to use erotica or suggest that women are frigid if they will not....it is not my choice to make."

Agree with this. I have greatly appreciated the non-judgemental nature and spiritual insight of your posts.

"I am not a Christian...I am however deeply spiritual, and I believe in God."

But you quote the Bible and contribute to this site from a Christian perspective. Did you have a fundamentalist upbringing which turned you off Christianity but left you with a legacy of insight that you still draw upon? Or if not that then what?

"The problem with pornography from my perspective, is that it is produced by an industry that exploits the innocence of children, and the weaknesses of people for profit. The explosion of pornography on the internet has taken us far far beyond mere recreational erotica to the dregs of human sexual depravity. That is an industry I cannot support, without making it easy for people like pedeophiles to hide behind the 1st amendment. There is some evidence that pornography use can become addictive and impact marriages...there is overwhelming evidence that it is exploitive."

This is all true but the use of erotic movies or literature within marriage is a different issue. I'm a newcomer and not aware of your personal history. Maybe porn is a particular issue for you - we all have nerves that can be touched.

May I say again how much I appreciate your contribution to this board.

Dear MB Debaters,

No one on the thread is posting a real life conflict, right? My conflict is that my wife occasionally withdraws POJA on viewing errotic videos. No one seems to be interested in making a suggestion of how I can better approach my wife for more consistent POJA.

Jesus said it was adultery in the heart for a married man to look at another woman with lust. There were nude statues, paintings and drawings in the time of Jesus, but Jesus is quoted with the Greek Words words GUNE, woman, and AUTOS, her, in the passage, Matthew 5:28. The connotations of these Greek words are about an indiviual person, not about paintings, drawings, statues or other likenesses.

The passage in Matthew 5:28 is an admonition against adultery. When I was single, I would sometimes look at a woman with lust. I was ready. I had a private place to go, I fully intended to attempt to make love to that woman. If I looked at a woman now, with lust, as a married man, then Jesus points out that my look would be the beginning of adultery, that is, adultery in the heart.

The Greek word EPITHUMO is used in Matthew 5:28, meaning lust. The Greek word MOICHENUSO, is used, meaning intending to commit adultery. Ordinarily, in the marital bedroom setting, errotic videos are used for oggling, with the intent to lust after the wife, not some image on the screen. Some popular errotic videos are animated pictures,and there is not real woman after whom to lust.

The word lust implies a desire for insertion. The word oggling is a closer description of my viewing of errotic videos in the marital bedroom. Lusting implies a true intention to make love with the object of lust. The object of my lust in my marital bedroom is my wife. The errotic video that I watch is a bargain DVD, and I do not know how to contact the indiviudals in the DVD, nor do I have any desire to contact them.

Many Christians enjoy pornography to one extent or another. Most Christians, and other people agree that some discretion or judgement should be excersized in the distribution and viewing of pornography. Some Christian faiths teach their branch of Christianity without distinguishing between Christ's words, and their branch's extension of the Christ's teachings to cover pornography. I personally try to distinguish between what is actually Biblical, and what is an extension of Christ's teachings.

Quipper

<small>[ November 19, 2003, 07:35 PM: Message edited by: Quipper ]</small>

lovedsaved,

I am spiritual, but not Christian. I was baptized Catholic, raised Presbyterian....that's enough to confuse anyone I think. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I have trouble with organized religion....so often...it seems very corrupt. I also have trouble following any religion that calls for the damnation of billions of people. I cannot wrap my mind around that.... or that there is only one way to god. The history of the bible tells me that it has been rewritten hundreds of times to suit not only religious leaders, but politicians.

Pornography has never been a problem in my marriage. If anything, I have in the past been the more adventurous one who wanted to introduce these things to my marriage. My husband never has. He did go to strip clubs....secretly....resulting in infidelity. But I have never been an anti-porn advocate. I still believe in the POJA...and if two adults consent to using porn...that's their decsion. I am not the least bit prudish...being an enthusiastic adventurer in the bedroom...with only a few boundaries like extra partners or pain.

In the past few months, I have begun mentoring couples for SYMC (Penny's site). As part of my training, I have had to do extensive research on sexual addiction and pornography. I have read the pros and cons. It is a subject that doesn't lend itself well to study....since creating a control group would also mean exposing another to large amounts of porn....very unethical, especially for children.

However, as I said....I am less interested in controlling what consenting adults do (assuming they are not addicted) than I am in protecting the children in this country from having access or being exploited by this industry. The majority of porn stars begin in prostitution at the average age of 13. They are throw aways...and they are exploited and used by this industry. It's become impossible for me to become aroused by images that were produced by exploiting others.

Further....one of the most dangerous things...I think....about pornography is this. You may hear some people say....well what about the violence and the negative stereotypes on TV? Well, that's true....but there is a difference. Television is fantasy. If you see Arnold kill twenty people....you also know that they stood up and had coffee after the scene. Pornography (especially the amateur kind which has become so popular) is real. It's about what real people are willing to do for to make money off of our desire to be aroused. People who say pornography is victimless...are not facing reality. There is a difference between playboy, watching a pregnant woman be gang banged, or sexuality coupled with defacation. Some may have a negative effect on your sexual psyche. If what we see doesn't affect us....how do you explain the advertising industry???? No one who admits to watching porn will admit to looking at this other stuff....oooh that's sick they say....but defending one....unfortunately puts you into the position of defending the other. It's a hard pill to swallow. The more I learn....the deeper the quandary.

No matter how the statistics are stroked....and what the political agendas are involved....there is alot of empirical evidence right on this board every single day that tells me that pornography is affecting marriages in a negative way. The supreme court recently made the public libraries install filters that would make porn inaccessible to children there....it is under opposition.

If we can spend 4 billion dollars a year on pornography....I simply do not understand how we can't make filters or penalize businesses that refuse to protect children from exposure or pedeophiles.

I don't discourage the use of pornography by individual couples....but neither do I promote it....it is a personal decision. The inference that Quipper makes...that this is a decision motivated by prudishness is laughable...at least if he is talking about me (and not making one of his sweeping generalizations). There are many reasons to leave porn out of one's life....that have zero to do with frigidity. That is the rationalization of someone that I suspect may have a sexual addiction himself. Perhaps not...but he talks about how he'd like to desensitize his wife to porn....so she will allow him to use more of it. That sounds to me....like someone who might have trouble giving it up. My research with sexual addiction tells me that is a prime example of the kind of logic used by sexual addicts....that we should all use porn cause it will improve our sex lives.

That's baloney.

Dear Star,

If I return my Porno DVD for a refund, will you help me get effective alternatives to prison started and fully funded in Iraq and Palestine? What about the US and the rest of the world? Europe is ahead of most everyone on alternative programs, but their crime rate has increased lately, and I don't fuly know why.

Quipper

Quipper,


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No one on the thread is posting a real life conflict, right? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Other than my personal witnessing of how pornography has destroyed marriages and families, I guess not.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My conflict is that my wife occasionally withdraws POJA on viewing errotic videos.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If she withdraws POJA then it isn't POJA.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No one seems to be interested in making a suggestion of how I can better approach my wife for more cnsistent POJA.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So what are you really interested in viewing porn or getting your W more interested in meeting your needs for SF? If you are pushing the porn issue, it sounds like you are more interested in getting to view porn than how your W feels about the matter. Many people will say that foreplay for a woman starts in the kitchen. Try finding out what it is that she worries about during the day and making sure those are no longer issues for her to think about.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jesus said it was adultery in the heart for a married man to look at another woman with lust.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I looked up the verse in 16 different translation and none of them said "married man". It either said "anyone", "whosoever" or "everyone".

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There were nude statues, paintings and drawings in the time of Jesus, but Jesus is quoted with the Greek Words words GUNE, woman, and AUTOS, her, in the passage, Matthew 5:28. The connotations of these Greek words are about an indiviual person, not about paintings, drawings, statues or other likenesses.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Me thinks you're splitting hairs and looking for a way to justify your use of pornography.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The word lust implies a desire for insertion. The word oggling is a closer description of my activity with errotic videos in the marital bedroom. Lusting implies a true intention to make love with the object of lust.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So you want to have have your cake and eat it too huh? You say "but there is no direct admonition about porn in the Bible." Yet you choose to ignore the definitions presented to you on the word lust. The Bible implies that lusting after a woman, picture, painting, statue, or the real thing;...a man with LUSTFUL THOUGHTS of a woman has commited adultry.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The object of my lust in my marital bedroom is my wife. The errotic video that I watch is a bargain DVD, and I do not know how to contact the indiviudals in the DVD, nor do I have any desire to contact them.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If the object of lust were your W, then you would have no need for the porn. IF your W turns you on you don't need the porn. If the porn turns you on, then your thoughts are on the image and not your W.

S&C

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If I return my Porno DVD for a refund, will you help me get effective alternatives to prison </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why chere? Do you see prison in your future if you are denied your pornography? Afraid you won't be able to find a legal outlet for all that testosterone if your wife turns off the TV?

I started a discussion about Christians and courtesy and now I'm in the chair for a debate between Quipper and star*fish about pornography! I suppose that's life on a discussion board and I'll be a good chair because I respect you both.

Please note that I'm a novice here mediating between two of the most vigorous posters on the MB site. Reminds me of chairing a public meeting at the age of 21 between two members of parliament (I'm British) on the subject of nuclear power.

Now then...

Quipper wrote "The errotic video that I watch is a bargain DVD". Do you literally mean you've only got one? And you bought it cheap?? I'd say if your wife enjoys it too then it's OK. For that matter if you use porn on your own then it's OK if your wife knows and POJAs it.

star*fish: We all generalise from our own experience. My W is more adventurous than me in the bedroom and I go along to the limit I feel comfortable with. Some of the role play stuff she likes is re..eaa..llyy embarrassing. I hope the CIA aren't filming us.

I don't want to be too explicit but I think that even pain is not out of bounds if it's by enthusiastic agreement. You've revealed elsewhere that you like oral, which my W and I have no interest in at all. Or was that someone else - sorry if it was.

The points you make about the porn industry are valid (exploitation must be wrong) but do we endorse all drugs just because we drink a few glasses of wine?

To address the porn issue and lust I'd say that real life women are a temptation because they're, well, real. Sex on the screen doesn't make me and W want the people on the screen but it puts us in the mood for each other - not that it takes much these days since MB helped improve our relationship! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I'd really like you two to be friends.

lovesaved.....so sorry we hijacked your thread Please forgive me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> As far as both being prolific posters....well I'd say Quipper has got a ways to go LOL....since I have over 8500 posts (which I must add in NO WAY makes me a higher authority on any issue!)

I have repeatedly said that I have zero problem with couples POJAing pornography use behind their own bedroom doors. The problem continually arises on these boards....when one partner continues to ignore the POJA and the marriage to pursue his use of porn. That is clearly outside of what Dr.H considers "protecting" your spouse and the Policy of Joint Agreement.

The reason that I can no longer support the use of pornography (FOR ME) is not unlike those people who no longer eat tuna where dolphins are killed in the process. I cannot responsibly use the product of an industry that exploits others....most notably children. It is a concientous objection....not a matter of sexual repression or frigidity.

My argument with Quipper is that he promotes pornography as IF he knows for certain that it will:

1. Help wives overcome sexual aversions.

2. Prevent sexual assault.

3. Enhance everyone's sex life.

This is as impossible to prove as proving the opposite is true (that pornography doesn't help and causes sexual assault). The studies give conflicting results depending on who sponsors them. The jury is simply not in yet. Studies of course are not the only evidence available....but those who promote the use of pornography refuse to look at rest of the empirical evidence about the effects of pornography (because it doesn't support their claims).

But what I find far more disturbing....and I will continue to argue...is that voyeurism and pornographic use are NOT similar. Please see the thread to hurting promise keeper to understand the source of my agitation about Quipper's repeated inference about JDNX's husband.