Catnip
Why is it your H is "flawed, made a mistake, suffers from a disease etc etc etc" yet the OW is an opportunistic whore????? Is it not possible that YOU don't know HER whole story either? Maybe she too is suffering from some awful disease that renders her unable to do the right thing? Again, the hyposcrisy shines through.<p>Re alcoholism - I cannot believe you sat by while he resumed drinking. Anyone who knows about alcoholism knows that the only was to help an alcoholic is to leave them to their own devices, to let them hit rock bottom on their own, otherwise they have NO reason to quit. Me not compassionate about alcoholism? Nothing could be further from the truth. However, someone who is in cancer remission for 18 years does not suddenly DECIDE to come out of remission. They do not have that choice. An alcoholic who hasn't had anything to drink and then goes back CHOOSES to go back.
Listen Catnip, no one is saying your H isn't sorry for what he did or that he is not to be forgiven. But don't you think it's a bit hypocritical to chalk his part up to a mistake and a side effect of a disease but the OW.....OH NO, no excuses here. COME ON! I wish you could see hear how it sounds!

Fullhouse wrote:<p>...The man that I was befriended by, I thought was a friend, the relationship grew before I really realized how far it had gone, he constantly persued (sic) me. And yes I was weak and had an affair (2 nights) and I was filled with such guilt that I (ME) broke it off. Telling him this would never happen again...<p>You are scaring me. You are not the victim here. The child and the om are.<p>
...Before we were intimate, I stated I was not on any type of birth control or had any protection (since this wasnt planned on my part) Yet I trusted him when he told me not to worry he would take care of it...<p>How exactly did this work? Did he tell you he had a magic invisible condom on his penis? Once again, you&#8217;re the poor innocent victim.<p>...I had an abortion when I was 18&#8230;. if men want to have legal rights of choice, than they better make better decisions in the first place...<p>Looks like you exercised your legal post-conception choice even though you didn&#8217;t act responsibly. Perhaps under your line of reasoning, women should not have a legal choice either (i.e. abortion, abandonment, adoption, emergency birth-control, single parenthood.) <p>
...I am trying to talk myself into adoption...<p>PLEASE talk harder, or get some therapy, or talk to anyone who hasn&#8217;t lost their sense of reason. Adoption would be the best possible answer to you&#8217;re screwed up situation. The biggest benefactor would be your child.<p>
...My husband WANTS me to go after child support if I choose to keep this little girl (which I do love and it has nothing to do with who made her or how she was conceived)!...<p>If you love the child, then act lovingly and put the child up for adoption or have your husband adopt the child. This will also serve to keep the om out of your life.<p>...she put us through hell most of his young life, and yes we paid child support for 18 years. But I need to be concerned with my husbands wishes, so if I do keep my child, I will probably have to look into child support because my husband thinks it is best that the bio father be responsible for his part...<p>Do you think that after being &#8220;put through hell&#8221; by paying child support, and after being put through the new hell that you&#8217;ve created for him by your infidelity, that there is any vindictiveness in your husband? His desire to destroy the om&#8217;s life (and the life of your [censored] child) must be motivated, at least in part, by vindictiveness. This is a time to act out of love for the child and not out of selfish feelings of being victimized. <p>
...I am very sorry if this causes any pain to his wife and family, I do not want to hurt them...<p>Then don&#8217;t! Accept the responsibility of being given the legal choice of whether or not to be a parent.<p>...But remember the husband is to blame for this also. He was just a irresponsible as the woman, he should have thought about what might happen...<p>True, he was just as irresponsible as you were, but now you are the only one acting irresponsibly, because you are the only one with the legal right to choose.<p>...I would love to raise this child with my other 7 children...<p>Oh My God! Please stop breeding. PALEEESE!<p> I hope this makes sense and I hope I dont affend (sic) anyone. <p>Your decisions and attitudes make absolutely no sense to me, but I&#8217;m sure you can&#8217;t understand that because I don&#8217;t live inside your world. I find most of what you say to be extremely offensive. Self-centered women like you give motherhood a bad name. Ignorance is not a defense.<p>
...The idiot I got involved with could have cared less if he got me pregnant, and he still feels that way...<p>
Then, by God, punish him to the tune of about half of his salary...he deserves it...you are so righteous! Just be aware that in taking his money, it makes you nothing more than a very expensive whore (i.e. money for sex).<p>
...As I said before its both parties fault and they both need to take responsibility for their actions...

Not true. Only the man in this situation is forced to take responsibility...you have a choice.<p>...That is the consequences (sic) of being irresponsible...<p>Sad but true when the om is put into this situation with an irrational woman.<p>...Not everyone is out there to destroy both families life(sic)...<p>
Hello, YOU are out there destroying both families&#8217; lives&#8230;wake up! Step outside of yourself for a second and realize that you are one of those people.<p>
...But when you think about it logically, why is it that the woman should suffer and the man and his family should go on like nothing ever happened...<p>
Don't wreck you&#8217;re brain cell trying to think logically. Both parties do suffer when an unwanted pregnancy occurs. The love and connection felt for a child are not exclusive to humans that own uteri. If you have found a man that truly does not care that you are knocked-up with his [censored] child, then you have found your equal. I suggest you divorce your husband and marry him. (Just remember to pay your child support for the other six chitlens.)<p>...And this is from the view point of someone that doesnt even want to involve the other family. But does that make sense? It was as much his fault as hers, so what makes him less responsible?...
<p>Once again, you are not the innocent victim here, if you don&#8217;t want to involve the other family then don&#8217;t&#8230;you have a choice. The problem isn&#8217;t that the om is &#8220;less responsible.&#8221; The problem is that our archaic family court laws have given all the post-conception responsibility to an irresponsible person. Until these unjust laws change in a way that will offer equal parenthood rights for men and women, justice relies solely on the ability of a woman to make logical and fair decisions. You are a perfect example of why the current system doesn&#8217;t work.

Ouch!

Whoa, Worsehalf, well said and logical point of view. Harsh but true. I guess I try to consider FH's pain and cater to that when in reality, your stance is much more thoughtful and ultimately kind to everyone involved. I take my hat off.<p>Catnip =^^=

worsehalf,
You couldn't have broken that down better. That is the most truthful statement I have ever heard. My feelings are with you. You stated everything factual. The ow just try to justify what they are doing by making it sound like they are helping the oc, but in all honesty they are just helping theirselves.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Bonniebb:
<strong>Catnip
Why is it your H is "flawed, made a mistake, suffers from a disease etc etc etc" yet the OW is an opportunistic whore????? Is it not possible that YOU don't know HER whole story either? Maybe she too is suffering from some awful disease that renders her unable to do the right thing? Again, the hyposcrisy shines through.<p>Re alcoholism - I cannot believe you sat by while he resumed drinking. Anyone who knows about alcoholism knows that the only was to help an alcoholic is to leave them to their own devices, to let them hit rock bottom on their own, otherwise they have NO reason to quit. Me not compassionate about alcoholism? Nothing could be further from the truth. However, someone who is in cancer remission for 18 years does not suddenly DECIDE to come out of remission. They do not have that choice. An alcoholic who hasn't had anything to drink and then goes back CHOOSES to go back.
Listen Catnip, no one is saying your H isn't sorry for what he did or that he is not to be forgiven. But don't you think it's a bit hypocritical to chalk his part up to a mistake and a side effect of a disease but the OW.....OH NO, no excuses here. COME ON! I wish you could see hear how it sounds!</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Bonnie<p>I don't care about the OW. I don't love the OW. If the OW fell down a flight of stairs and broke her neck, I wouldn't care. I don't care if she is sick or suffering. How is that hypocritical? What is hypocritical is that you are with your husband who you claim is disgusting and dispicable who had TWO OC's with your 'decent OW' (which is a curious oxymoron) I wish you would explain your story to us-for real-and watch for consistency. The only thing I believe I am guilty about regarding hypocracy is my pro-life, anti-abortion view. While I still lean that way, I know there once was a time in January 1999 when I prayed and wished for her to abort and shamefully asked God for forgiveness and understanding. I wished for it to die, for her to miscarry. I was thinking completely evil thoughts in my pain and anguish. And the only one I will apologize to for it is God.<p>As for the ridiculous assumption of yours that I sat idly by while my husband progressed in his disease is preposterous and does not warrant a response from me. You have absolutely no idea the struggle that ensued, the day he hit rock bottom. You make such uninformed ridiculous assumptions that are so incredibly insulting, BB. You need to learn diplomacy and go to charm school...I respect your opinion, but your delivery is insulting and does inspire a fight.<p>I tried to play nice and treat you with respect by opening up to you in the hopes we could at least come to a mutual understanding. Mostly I think you are just abrasive and combative. . <p>If you want to continue to debate, let's do it off the forum and e-mail each other privately so the newbies and those in turmoil are not emotionally battered by searing comments that may cause further injury. Besides, you seem to make too many inaccurate assumptions that send some of the members up the wall because it is as if you just don't listen or think before you speak and come off as a clod. <p>And lastly, I don't care how it sounds to you or anyone else. Only I know what happened, only I know the depth and breadth of the entire scenario and since you really know nothing except what I have told you, I don't expect you to understand or care much what your take on it is since I can't seem to reach you anyway.<p>It's too bad. I really, really wanted to talk to you without stupid assumtions, disrespectful judgments you don't have a clue about. I will continue to respond until I feel the exchange is fruitless.<p>You're entitled to your views and I respect them...just watch the delivery, BB. <p>Catnip =^^=<p>[ November 27, 2001: Message edited by: catnip ]</p>

Catnip
Please tell us more about bystander and his ideas on how to change the system. To you tmdt..my husband has written several letters to his representatives. He has not recieved a response of any kind. This is not a very politically savory topic. Maybe a more organized letter writing campaign is in order...

Hi- I would just like to say I agree with Catnip. All of our situations are alike and different. It's so crude to pass judgement on people and their decisions. We're not here to be told how to feel and think. Well, at least I'm not...We are here to support each other. Let's agree that if we're going to disagree, to reamin tactful and considerate of each other's feelings!<p>Anyway, I feel a group hug coming on.<p>((((Group Hug))))

msclyde, thanks for pages of interesting reading. I also would like to become an activist!<p>Worsehalf I cried at your words as it was articulated in a way I've not been able to say all at once. Oh sure I've said most of it in bits and pieces. You and Catnip and Bystander can recruit me anytime!<p>Love
Debi

reamin...oops I meant remain..DUH

worsehalf,
are you the worse half of your marriage. I thought we were here to lend support, help each other in our marriages. we are all human, I am so sorry, I didnt know you were so perfect that you are in the position of judging a nother human being that you have never met. You did not even listen to what I was saying and you twisted everything into how your bitterness hears it. From your hateful response I gather you are not a person of God. and if you are, I am sorry I didnt hear any of it in your response. No matter what I have said, you would not understand, because you must have been hurt so deeply that only hate comes from you now. There are stories from all sides and no one knows exactly what went on except the people who lived through each circumstance. I am sorry that I tried to share my feelings. I thought this was open to all people that found themselves in the position of an A and a child. Its too bad that you cant see how the hurt and pain effects everyone, not just you and we all need support and healing. I know there are a few out there with no remorse and who could care less, and you dont have to believe anything I say, but it comes from my heart. And for you to say anything about how many children my husband and I have together, is just sick in itself, you are either very jealous person....or have a problem with people who enjoy and are able to have large families. I am a wonderful mom, very devoted to my children, and nothing you could say, because you dont know me, will change that. And the comment on birthcontrol methods you dont know what we used or did, I will let you know that they all dont work 100% of the time, otherwise my beautiful 6 year old daughter would not be here with us. Condoms are not always as effective as you would think. So dont go around judging people that you know nothing about until you can say that you are a perfect person with no sins.

I am sorry for the confusion, the above posting is from me, not pops. Somehow his name went on my posting. Thanks

BBB...just wondering, so that I might understand your responses better, do you have a personality disorder or something?<p>When I first came to the boards, you were mean. Then, you changed your tone and seemed to be almost kind. Then, you're gone for awhile, come back, and you're mean again. Are you bi-polar?

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by pops:
[QB]worsehalf,
we are all human, I am so sorry, I didnt know you were so perfect that you are in the position of judging a nother human being that you have never met. You did not even listen to what I was saying and you twisted everything into how your bitterness hears it. From your hateful response I gather you are not a person of God so deeply that only hate comes from you now. QB]<hr></blockquote><p>Dear Pops and Fullhouse<p>Worsehalf came across harshly but her logic is right on....everything she said made sense. She was very direct but it certainly wasn't borne of hate. She was frustrated by your post and pointed out inconsistencies. That's all. If you step back and look at what she said rather than react emotionally to it, you will see she meant no harm...just trying to make her point.<p>Catnip =^^=

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by msclyde:
<strong>Catnip
Please tell us more about bystander and his ideas on how to change the system. To you tmdt..my husband has written several letters to his representatives. He has not recieved a response of any kind. This is not a very politically savory topic. Maybe a more organized letter writing campaign is in order...</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Dear Ms Clyde<p>Bystander has been a member of this forum for as long as I have. He has been working towards reform of our confiscatory support laws for a couple years.<p>I know progress is slow and it is a very unpopular topic...no one in government wants to touch this with a ten foot pole. But there are grass root organizations he knows of that are working to change the system.<p>Bystander has been busy the past few months and doesn't post as often as he did but I will alert him that there are questions. He will respond as soon as he can.<p>Thanks for your interest...I'll e-mail him tonight and let him know.<p>Catnip =^^=

ladys, ladys, ladys, and with the p*ssy attitudes i have been reading here that term is being used very loosely. fh and i understand the anger and
frustration many of you are feeling over your personal cs situations. and WE understand the disgust you all have for the ow just as p51, joell, myself and many others have unmeasurable disgust for the om. WE also agree with you that some of you have been dealt a supreme screwing by the cs system. if we thought the system is such a good idea i would try to have her seek out one fortune 500 executive for the next 5 yrs and retire at age 55 with a day care service. the system is not funny and it is not fair but the 2 of us did not make it. catnip i am sorry to here how miserable your story unfolded but i also read alot of wisdom in your words. it amazes me that you could support an attitude like that of worsehalf. you have said many times that each case is differrent, you have read fh's posts and returned posts to her saying you understand her remorse and wish her luck then turn around and group her with the "opportunistic whore" that wrecked havoc on your life. i am not saying and my w is not saying she did nothing wrong. she is not asking for forgiveness from any of you. that is not our job it belongs to GOD HIMSELF, our job is mearly tolerance. i know i am one of the newbies to this site and i quess i must ask tolerance from the oldies as my w did not sin soon enough in life for some of you. the point i am trying to make here is we all know that it takes 2 to tango and at this point it doen't matter whether he persued her or she persued him. it is to late for all that crap. AND for bb to stop all that don't forget he didn't bring his balloon to the dance crap. AND whoever to knock off the why didn't she use foam garbage.
i would like to read some ideas on how to reform the system to make it eguitable. And don't give me any of that it was her choice b*llsh*t either. again too late. i am interested in how catnip does with her lawsuit as i wish to file one on the om for interference with a marital relation.
the om in my case is m and told ME on the phone he would pay cs if my w wanted him to. so in MY case i say bring it on dude. i have almost begun to feel lucky as some of the stories i have read in the last 24 hours make mine seem like a walk in the park and they are truely miserable situations. i don't know how many of you have endured for as long as you have. my heart goes out to you all. as for worsehalf and her halfwit attempt to twist fh's words if she had read the post with a curious heart as to what some are going through instead of a selfish bitter heart thinking only of her own pain and suffering she may have been able to understand its true meaning. not attack like a narrow minded featherbrain. i would honestly like to hear her story as i noticed that was her 1st post. nice to have you aboard this ship of heartbroken souls. on your next post why don't you just jump in and tell us what you really think. you know -- just go for it. or maybe you could read back and find out a little history before you open your mouth and change feet the next time. sorry to any one who has offered honest advice and wisdom for it has been very much appreciated up to this point. when we are faced with these terrible ordeals it is very easy to turn ugly even towards those who mean you no harm. i am not asking for a group hug or any of that crap just that we all step back, regroup ourselves and try to be constructive and suppotive towards each other.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by pops:
<strong>catnip it amazes me that you could support an attitude like that of worsehalf. you have said many times that each case is differrent, you have read fh's posts and returned posts to her saying you understand her remorse and wish her luck then turn around and group her with the "opportunistic whore" that wrecked havoc on your life. <p>as for worsehalf and her halfwit attempt to twist fh's words if she had read the post with a curious heart as to what some are going through instead of a selfish bitter heart thinking only of her own pain and suffering she may have been able to understand its true meaning. not attack like a narrow minded featherbrain. i would honestly like to hear her story as i noticed that was her 1st post. nice to have you aboard this ship of heartbroken souls. on your next post why don't you just jump in and tell us what you really think. you know -- just go for it. or maybe you could read back and find out a little history before you open your mouth and change feet the next time.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Pops<p>I do not recall ever grouping Fullhouse with my OW or what I call my opportunistic whore. Could you please be more specific and point out where exactly I did this? I need to know how this was construed. Thanks.<p>Also, I support anyone who makes sense. I am a logic junkie. Worsehalf made a lot of sense in every line she wrote...and I can't argue with anything she said. My only problem with what she said was not with the content, but with the delivery. She could have been more diplomatic. But I do agree with everything she said. It doesn't mean I think FH is bad, good or indifferent. It isn't a judgment call on my part. Just common sense.<p>Halfwit and Featherbrain? Pops, I hope you don't resort to names when people say things you don't like or agree with. Everyone is entitled to their opinion...you are, FH is, worsehalf is, I am, BB is...all of us. And everyone is welcome to post their opinions-respectfully.<p>Don't forget to find the part where you say I lumped FH with the OW in my life...I need to see where I did that.<p>Take care and cool down...everyone seems to be running on high emotion today.<p>Catnip =^^=

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>if we thought the system is such a good idea i would try to have her seek out one fortune 500 executive for the next 5 yrs and retire at age 55 with a day care service. <hr></blockquote><p>Trouble is Pops, courts mostly treat average fathers as if they were fortune 500 executives. Only looking at case in hand and tunnel vision toward mans' actual life and income.<p>UGH! Unfair to say the least.<p>Debi<p>[ November 28, 2001: Message edited by: gemini1 ]</p>

Dear tmdt,
I think you had choices when you discovered your H's affair. I don't believe that your only choice was to stay and work it out. Dr.Harley said that if his wife had an affair he would leave her and she said the same thing about him! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] None of the choices are easy, but they do exist. It's unfair that your H put you in a position to have to decide these things, nevertheless, there is hope for recovery. OC's definitely complicate the matter.<p>Hey catnip,
You are the first cat I ever met who actually appreciated a good squirting off! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] I must say that your H's CS situation is totally outrageous. Should definitely try to get that thing reduced. The OW, however, may not be the one who can make pay you back for all your pain and suffering. It might take a miracle from God, a financial one in nature... That's always possible, you know?! Keep the faith! Keep looking to Him for your rewards.<p>The thing is, when these stories are retold, it's easy to tell who has healed and who has not, and who is still bleeding profusely. In the meantime, life is passing us by! We all have to get to the place where dredging up our painful memories of the past don't literally rip off the scab & cause more bleeding!! See, if time healed all wounds, then God is unnecessary. Some wounds are not humanly possible to heal, that's all I'm saying.<p>Do whatever you need to do to get closure. If you believe suing the OW will get you the satisfaction you need, then go for it. Be prepared for whatever the outcome and don't set yourself up for disappointment. You really want to know she is suffering but you can know that without lifting a finger to force it to happen. Heck, I'LL give you some satisfaction. Listen to me closely... Single parenting IS her consequence. She is paying for the pain she caused you. <p>And you just wait til OC reaches her teens! No amount of money in the world can make single parenting easier than a two-parent, intact family. Kids NEED two parents. I have been a single parent and I am a married parent and I know what I'm talking about. Kids with only one parent suffer. Period. Parents with no spouse to help them parent, suffer. There is suffering going on in New York catnip, you just don't realize it.<p>You have mentioned how smug OW is so she will never be the one to let you know this. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] So allow me to save her the trouble of telling you SHE IS SUFFERING! That's the bottom line.<p>Dear pops,
Welcome to the Parent/Child forum! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] The "rawest" of the MB bunch... Lurk if you dare, but don't even think about posting without your full armor on! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by pops:
<strong>...read the post with a curious heart as to what some are going through instead of a selfish bitter heart thinking only of her own pain and suffering she may have been able to understand its true meaning. not attack...</strong><hr></blockquote><p>This is very difficult to do when people are forced into a vulnerable position & feel out of control. <p>Since children are involved, there are very intense emotions. How do you think a mother bear would react if some animal was trying to steal from or bother her cubs? They are dead meat!<p>Naturally, BS's feel threatened in general, so when OW is taking meat from their own children's mouths through CS--esp. if it's way too high, somebody is going to get lashed!<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>...when we are faced with these terrible ordeals it is very easy to turn ugly even towards those who mean you no harm. i am not asking for a group hug or any of that crap just that we all step back, regroup ourselves and try to be constructive and suppotive towards each other.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Good suggestion, pops. No one should be defending their positions here, IMHO, or even made to feel that they should. Our stories are really nobody's business. <p>We have to be able to feel safe enough to express our opinions without any further threats of stirring up negative emotions. Haven't we all been through enough negativity in our lives? We don't need it here, too...<p>BS's and OC's are innocent victims, raped into the consequences of infidelity, WS is a jerk for going outside of the marriage, OW/OM are definitely scumbags for getting involved with married people. WE ALL KNOW THIS ALREADY, so let's quit kicking the dead horse and keep looking for constructive ways on how to resolve the damage so we can finally get to a place where we are enjoying life again! Isn't it about time? <p>Maybe your sin was/is more dignified than mine was/is, but all sinners are on their way to the same hell. We ALL need God's forgiveness...<p>[ November 28, 2001: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</p>

BINthere, You made me laugh out loud this morning when I read this: <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Welcome to the Parent/Child forum! The "rawest" of the MB bunch... Lurk if you dare, but don't even think about posting without your full armor on!
<hr></blockquote> <p>A few years ago I frequented the MB site under a different name as a freshly betrayed spouse. Now I've graduated to this, the "rawest" of forums!!<p>Regarding worsehalfs posting, while I do agree with his points, I believe there is room for telling the truth in love. Fullhouse understands her wrongs. She and pops are her because they are both hurting. Even as the betrayed spouse I understand that my wife is hurting deeply. In fact, I believe she hurts worse than I do. It takes a lot of courage to post here when you are the one who betrayed. Even behind a computer screen, with your true identity hidden by cyber space, there is vulnerability in being honest here. People can get hurt. Fullhouse does need to hear the truth, and I'm sure she already has, but she doesn't need to be beaten to the ground by it. <p>I say this knowing full well that I'm capable of getting riled about something and responding in a similar way to worsehalf. Like BINthere said, this is raw. Emotions are at full tide and sometimes people are here dealing with hurt that is unbearable. I just think it's important to keep perspective.