(this was a response to another thread)
Bonnie,<p>I feel so strongly about a comment you made about being bi-polar that I could not continue reading all the posts and went straight to a response. Being bi-polar is a serious illness that can and does change you from Jekyl to Hyde. You act irrationally and without any logical thought. I&#8217;ve lived through the tragedy of what bi-polarism can do to loved ones. My cousin was bi-polar. We grew up together; laughed together; cried together; loved each other; hated each other. He was not my &#8220;brother&#8221;, but he was the closest thing to it. He was diagnosed as bi-polar about 7 years ago. He was on meds and they did wonders for him, but he wanted to be &#8220;normal&#8221;. So every once in awhile he would stop taking them because he really believed he would be okay without them. He wasn&#8217;t. Sometimes we were lucky and we could intervene before something bad happened. Other times the police would pick him up and bring him home after he decided it was okay to go jogging in his birthday suit. It sounds kind of funny, but it&#8217;s not. He had no idea that what he was doing was not acceptable or rational behavior. The last time he went off his meds, he decided to run the hills near a high traffic area for illegal aliens. Smugglers in this area were considered dangerous and were dealt with by our local law enforcement as such. That included deadly force. The last time my cousin went off his meds, he was killed! The police and border patrol thought he was an illegal alien or a smuggler and were &#8220;tracking&#8221; him down. He was paranoid, scared, and acting without reason. He started throwing rocks at the officers to keep them away. They considered it a threat to their lives and shot him. He was only 30 years old and was very kind and gentle person. Who he became when he stopped taking his meds was an unrecognizable being. <p>Bonnie, your assessment of a serious illness was pretty harsh. I would give anything to have my cousin back. That&#8217;s not going to happen, though, is it? My family has to deal with the aftermath of what this illness did and how much we lost as a result. Being bi-polar is life-altering. It is controllable with medication. Without meds, it can and does lead to tragedy. I hope you understand what I&#8217;ve said here. I know I&#8217;m rambling a bit.<p>Claudia

Obratti<p>Thank you for sharing your tragic story in the hopes some who know nothing about Bipolar may gain some insight into the horrors of this disease.<p>I am so sorry for your loss...what a terrible loss.<p>When you spoke about your cousin jogging naked, it reminded me of a year ago when I took my husband to a city lake around dusk. He was out of meds, we had no money to buy any and knew we wouldn't for a few more days and he was in a state. I turned to open a blanket under a tree when I heard a splash in the lake. My husband's clothes were on the grass and he was walking buck naked into the lake. Skinny dipping is fine at midnight, but doing what he did as the last of the sun was dipping into the west as a parade of cars were rolling down the parkway was a bit much. I just sat down on my blanket and watched him frolic in the water, pretending it was the most normal thing in the world. On the outside I appeared indifferent while my alarms were screaming inside "someone help this crazy man."<p>We got home without the aid of a police cruiser, he passed out on the bed, sand in his shorts, woke up the next morning confused. I told him what he had done, and he was embarrassed and ashamed. I told him not to be ashamed, he didn't hurt anyone, but the behavior was inappropriate unless we lived in Sweden, which made him laugh and took the horror out of it for him, but he spent the day somber and quiet wondering if he were indeed insane.<p>A friend loaned us the $400 he needed for meds and had the RX filled that day and by night he was completely lucid, sane, OK.<p>I guess my husband is very fortunate that he loves taking his meds...he never feels OK without them. He recognizes his irrational behavior as irrational, and knows first hand the enormous life altering damage he is capable of doing if he does not have his meds. He says he loves the way he thinks and feels on meds, that he can see logic and consequences where without them, he may as well be Alice in the Looking Glass.<p>By talking about the Bipolar behavior, I know it makes it sound as though I am making excuses for him, but the illness is truly a reality.<p>Thanks for your effort to enlighten, Obratti...thank you.<p>Catnip =^^=

I feel deeply for your loss, please accept my condolances.<p>I know firsthand about trying to find help for my daughter, who is 8 now. We have been trying to find help for her since she was 2 years old.<p>I have an 8 year old who thinks nothing of gouging holes on her bedroom wall with a pen, knife, pencil whatever. Between my toddler (who is 2) and my daughter, I have alot of damage to deal with on a day to day basis.<p>The mood swings....terrible....one minute up and one minute down...she ran away last summer from our babysitter. She ran away barefooted and was found wandering on a busy highway. The local police picked her up and if it weren't for the fact that she was on meds, under the care of a Psychiatrist and a psychologist, and that my H is a cop also, we would have been turned in to CPS.<p>I could go on and on. My child is a beautiful, loving, creative and gifted child. She reads and writes beyond her years. But the depressive side of her is hard to contain and when she goes into a rage, I have to keep a close watch on my 6,2 and 7 month old.<p>I worry for her when she starts adolescence. When she starts puberty. I read of parents who have lots of problems with children from age 11 until young adulthood. This is something that will never go away. It is treatable with meds and therapy. I am thankful that we caught our daughter at an early age. I pray that the Lord will guide her and keep her safe for the times that I am not able to be there to keep an eye on her.<p>Thanks for calling attention to this. I hope someday people will understand. The strain of having a child like this can tax even the stablest of marriages. I am having a full plate this year between OW and my own daughter. I guess God thinks I am strong enough. *sigh*<p>Anyways, my heart goes out to you and your family and to you too Catnip.
Hugs to you both,
Twiisty

Edited by moderator<p>[ December 04, 2001: Message edited by: Xarelel ]</p>

BBB<p>You can find out more about Bipolar Disorder at www.mayoclinic.com. <p>Love<p>Catnip =^^=

Bonnie,<p>You&#8217;re making some pretty strong statements, that are based on opinion and personal perspective, about a condition that has been diligently documented by medical professionals. There&#8217;s a vast gap between a layman&#8217;s opinion and a professional&#8217;s knowledge. Do you have a medical background? <p>My cousin knew he was bipolar. That didn&#8217;t stop him from going off his meds. The meds HELP, not cure, this condition. Once this grabs hold, you&#8217;ll not be 100% again. Being diagnosed does not mean you&#8217;re an immediate candidate for hospitalization. Some people can function and have reasonably normal lives. However, they are prone to making some, what appear to be, bonehead moves. But, then again, we ALL do that. It&#8217;s called being human. An excuse is something you give when you made a conscious decision to do something dumb. Bipolar disorder is not an excuse. It&#8217;s an explanation for erratic, unexplainable behavior. Based on my personal experience and research, I would say it&#8217;s a pretty damn good explanation. Granted, the explanation doesn&#8217;t make everything okay, but at least it helps someone to understand the why&#8217;s of the situation.<p>Claudia

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I guess that qualifies me as having a PH.D, considering that I have given birth TO and RAISING someone who is Bi-Polar!!! LOL!!!!<p>I guess what I am learning about our situation is that there are some things that you do hold the bi-polar person accountable for and otherthings you learn to "excuse" or "understand" because the disease makes them that way. <p>What I gleaned from Catnip's post is that she held her H accountable for his actions, it's the bi-polar part that she is understanding of. I often wonder what the OW's excuse was, being that she was in her right mind? Could she be guilty of taking advantage of someone who is mentally unbalanced or could she plead ignorance??? <p>I guess the thing with bi-polar is, it looks like an "invisible" disease because when the person is manic, all's well and happy...(of course they are capable of doing strange things in their manic mode). Usually it's the rage and depressive side that gets the most publicity. I am fortunate that with my daughter's Psychologist (she will learn to take responsibility for her behavior, but she won't stop the behavior, even if she owns up to it) and with her Phychiatrist, (figuring out the proper dosages of meds) that we are getting somewhere with her.<p>On a side note, you don't have to drink to get your meds messed up... we found out the hard way that even over the counter meds can affect your dosages etc. Especially if alcohol is listed in the cough syrup...<p>The complexities of this disease astounds even me and I am raising a bi-polar cub, myself. <p>This will be my last post on the subject as I am doing my best to raise my child and in dire circumstances now. My daughter needs me more than ever now, with things being shaky in my marriage with my H. All of this affects her. But I do take it personal about bi-polar, because unless you are either married to one, raising one or really close to one then there isn't room to talk. I often wonder if the stress of providing for my D, could have contributed to my H's need to "escape" for an evening into the arms of OW...the stress of raising her is tremendous. I blame myself at times. But I know the OW in our case, pursued my H but that's another thread.<p>Praying for a healing for all bi-polar people,
Twiisty

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>. He was out of meds, we had no money to buy any and knew we wouldn't for a few more days and he was in a state.<hr></blockquote><p>That is horrible Catnip! Out of money probably because oc the huge cs payments you're faced with.<p>I have two people I know diagnosed with this disease.<p>One is a physical therapist. He was diagnosed in college. HE KNOWS he must stay on his meds. He went off a while and lost his marriage and practice. That was a few years ago. He's back in business but it was a long, hard road.<p>Another is my other dear sister.
She also knows but frequently goes off of them because she feels better or doesn't want to take them anymore <p>It's truly sickening what happens to her.
We all can tell.
She's paranoid. Says off the wall things in her phone calls. She's irrational and you can't tell her otherwise because she just won't believe you...she believes herself.
It takes everything in the world for my parents to convince her to enter a hospital to get regulated again. See once the patient is an adult no one can "force" them into treatment. Sad but true....if the hospital personal see how she's acting and she decides not to "sign" in they don't make her!<p>When she DOES agree to go into the hospital, the looney phone calls begin at all hours of the day and night until her meds take effect again.<p>I do understand this heart wrenching illness. I wish I didn't have to know.<p>So OB1 and Catnip and Twiisty...you have someone who understands you.<p>
Bonnie, my son has adhd. It was never used as an excuse but rather an explaination of why his grades were low compared to his IQ. Or why in class he had impossible-to-surpress urges to fidget and talk. We imposed a game plan...such as putting him in a front row seat. We had compassionate teachers who allowed him freedom of movement when he could't control his fidgeting. We patiently helped him with a study plan to help his grades and he was allowd to record in class rather than take tedious notes.
He's successful now in the computer field.<p>When he was younger and we'd be watching tv together he'd be flopping around all over the place. I remember asking him why he couldn't just sit there and watch with us.<p>His simple explaination?<p>"I CAN'T MOMMY"....And he couldn't!<p>These are not made up excuses for bad behaviour Bonnie. These are REAL illnesses that society would rather not think about.....sort of how Hitler thought, don't you agree??? Perfect people. Perfect minds.

Actually, yes, Bonnie, I do have a medical background. I don't have MD after my name, but medical care/case management is a major necessity in my profession.<p>[ November 30, 2001: Message edited by: ohbratti1 ]</p>

Just ignore the troublemakers.<p>Catnip =^^=<p>[ November 30, 2001: Message edited by: catnip ]</p>

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Bonnie, in general, we ALL need to hold each other to a higher standard. We ALL need to be responsible AND accountable for our actions, both good and bad. Saying &#8220;I answer only to God&#8221; is a cop-out. It&#8217;s just another way of saying that &#8220;I can do what I want and you can&#8217;t stop me!&#8221; That behavior is not even acceptable in a child. When you wrong someone, a decent person would own up to their misdeed and make the effort to correct what they did wrong. Yes, there is man&#8217;s law, but there is also God&#8217;s law. We were given &#8220;rules&#8221; to live by. They&#8217;re called Commandments, not requests. I think, in Catnip&#8217;s situation, the balance of reason was waaayyyy off. The OW was of sound mind and acted with deliberate, calculated deviltry. Catnip&#8217;s H was not of sound mind. His actions and misdeeds were directed by his mental disorder, secondary to his drinking. The OW was well aware of this chink in his armor and took full advantage. We are all imperfect and we stride through life making exceptions for each other because we know we are all fallible. However, when a person maliciously and without conscience, preys on another, they should have to &#8220;pay their dues&#8221;&#8230;not just to God but to man. Otherwise there is nothing to keep people in check. Many more would be ripping apart lives/families and there would be much more misery in this world. Overall, I do see the reason in a lot of the points you make. I just don&#8217;t believe that it&#8217;s so cut and dried. There&#8217;s always the gray that has to be looked at. In my line of work, we always present scenarios to each other because we need input/opinion. The answer, no matter what the question, always starts with &#8220;It depends&#8230;&#8221; The outcome of each case is dependant on so many different factors. What may appear to be inconsequential could very well be the one thing that makes all the difference&#8230;nothing is ever simply black and white. Life would be so simple if it was.

Edited by moderator<p>[ December 04, 2001: Message edited by: Xarelel ]</p>

I'm guessing you don't know. I'm not a BS...I'm the proverbial "other woman". Anyway, we disagree, so have a great day!

BBB are you a product of nature or nurture?<p>You seem to be lacking in both departments.<p>Why the heck do you care what bs says of ow?<p>Do you think we should host a party in honor of ow/oc?<p>They, my dear are our enemy....sad but true. Our ws have been unfaithful, yes, none here desired another child w/ow. Sex is sex and even in marriage a child should be wanted. A wife who would pull this on her H would create so much resentment in the marriage. <p>It's a life!<p>H and wife usually WANT it. H's here did not! Lets differentiate between a roll in the hay and having a baby. <p>Two different things. Sad to say alcohol was involved in most of these cases.
I've seen alcohol make grownups do stupid things they'd never do if they were sober.<p>Surely you've heard the old saying of how beautiful a woman can look at 3 am...then at 7 am it's a whole new ballgame. It's alcohol. Then there's selfishness on H's part in thinking a little rock-n-roll won't hurt anyone as long as they don't find out. We are not blaming ow only for sex we are blaming her with the choices she made after she got pregnant. Only she gets to choose who knows and who doesn't. Who pays. Whose lives get turned upsidedown for their poor judgement(OW/H). Usually the lives of all the families and close relatives. It's a filthy mess.<p>However the honorable thing to do IMHO is to quietly go on w/o telling if ow intends to keep baby. But then again, by their very cunning nature, a baby forces man to tell...then it usually backfires in ow's face.<p>So again BBB, I ask why you stay here?<p>SHOO!!!!! Sick of hearing ya.<p>BTW I just saw your reply to "legislating morality.<p>My H in fact did chase ow. It must have not been too good or he'd have still been with her.<p>That's not the point!<p>Get a brain cell going will ya?<p>[ December 03, 2001: Message edited by: gemini1 ]diddiddid<p>[ December 03, 2001: Message edited by: gemini1 ]</p>

I have read this post with interest. I am quite familiar with bipolar disorder, working in mental health field. For those who suffer from the disorder, medications do not always work, even when compliant with them.Sad, but true. This disorder impairs judgement, reason, logic, even the ability to eat normally, dress normally, etc. When one is manic, or depressed, possibly psychotic, one's reasoning is not normal. So, yes, I believe it is definately possile that catnip's H did not know totally the implications of his act when he had his affair.-- Oh, do I wish that were true of my h! Additionally, the OW in many cases does not see anything wrong with what they have done. God knows my H regrets daily his involvement with OW and the creation of OC. THe OW never has said that to me at all, never has apologized to me for ruining my life, lying to my children, tampering with my h. MY H still has yet to gain my forgiveness, and he is trying daily to get that from me. The OW does not get that from me, for she does not ask for it. ENd of story.

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