I recently wrote to Dr. Harley because I wondered what his position was in regards to oc's with H and Ow.<p>Thought I'd come her and let you all read it.<p>BTW I miss you guys but it's better for me to stay away for now. <p>H and I are doing terrific and I need to get on with things for now.<p>I feel sooooo bad for CD!!!!! I just end up depressed reading all the newbies stories.<p>I pray for us all.<p>love
Debi<p>Subj: Marriage Builders
Date: 2/18/2002 10:00:00 AM Eastern Standard Time
From: bharley@marriagebuilders.com (Willard F. Harley, Jr.)
To:
<p>
Debi,<p>The position I take on children born of an affair is that since
restoring a marriage requires an unfaithful spouse to never see or talk
to the lover, it's too risky for visitation. I've witnessed time and
time again where the visitation has triggered the affair all over
again. Besides, any contact with the former lover is usually a great
offense to the betrayed spouse.<p>My advice is to avoid contact with the child until he or she reaches
adulthood. Otherwise there is too much risk of your marriage coming to
a tragic end.<p>Best wishes<p>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------
Return-Path: <bharley@marriagebuilders.com>
Received: from rly-xe01.mx.aol.com (rly-xe01.mail.aol.com<p>[ February 18, 2002: Message edited by: gemini1 ]</p>

He obviously places more value on the marriage then a child. He is entitled to his opinion.

Hey Gem,<p>Good to see you post, even though you are just here for this one post. I understand how it is when you want to move on, and am happy for you and H in your recovery!<p>Two things, one, you may want to edit your email addy out of this post if you didn't notice it was on there.<p>Second, I think it is great to have this "straight from the "horse's" mouth"!! So much is hearsey(sp) about what his stand is on this very touchy subject, it is nice to actually see it!<p>Again, I am so happy for you and your H in your continued recovery! <p>Love,<p>Tigger

Thanks, Gem.<p>It's good to hear that a reputable Doctor and friend holds the same values as the Good Lord. Too bad there aren't more people in the world who choose God's opinion over their own.<p>It's also great to hear you are doing terrific.<p>Love,
Julia

He obviously places more value on the marriage then a child. He is entitled to his opinion.

That is very interesting. I actually encouraged my X to have contact with the baby. I was worried he would end up resenting me later on if I kept him from his daughter. He told me he would pay his CS and have absolutely no contact with OC. Back then I was not even sure if I wanted to stay in the relationship. All I could think was this child is innocent and it's not her fault who she got for parents. I had no idea the hell that would await me and we were not even married. I think in the cases where there is marriage no contact is better for everyone, OC included. In my case the xOW was extremely bitter and made my life hell through the nasty custody battle she had with my X. It's very rare when there are 3 people that can put all their differences aside and do what is best for the child.

Julia
You actually think God condones ignoring one's children? What religion are you a part of? Just because one Dr offers this opinion doesn't mean it's right. There are LOTS of doctors, ours included, who believe that turning your back on the child is THE most damaging thing for the child and alomost ALWAYS for the marriage, in the end. I would NEVER put my own needs, my own marital nightmare, over the feelings of an innocent CHILD. Sometimes by the way some of you talk, you act like you don't realize that this is a living, breathing, innocent CHILD you are talking about. You act like it's just some object.

Dear Gem,<p>So good to see you posting, even just one time! I continue to pray for your happiness and I think you have the right combination now to do just that -- be happy.<p>Thank you for sharing Dr. Harley's wisdom. I know better than anyone that everyone has to do what is best for them. In my own case, I am glad that my H chose to fully support the OC financially without contact. But you know I have still worried about the OC's well-being.<p>What God has joined together, no man should put asunder. Truer words were never spoken. Marriage is a sacrament -- I don't think affairs have the same standing.<p>I pray all the time that the xOW in my life will find a good man to live her life with. I wish her no ill feelings, I simply don't intend to share my H with her. Many brilliant, talented, and loving people come from single parent homes. If the OW truly loves her child, then the child will be just fine.<p>You did your best, Gem, to make life easier for the OC and his so-called "mother" chose her own bitterness and anger over the advantages that you and your H could bring to that baby's life. Her choice ... her son's loss. <p>You are a class act, dear lady, and any child's life would have been enriched just to know you. But you are entitled to live your sacrament in peace without being constantly manipulated by a woman who has no concern for her own child. <p>Keep well and keep happy.
love,
heavenly<p>[ February 18, 2002: Message edited by: heavenlybody26 ]</p>

"IT" is an object to me. FYI, El, FYI. As is "it's" mother.<p>Also as time has passed an "it" to my husband.<p>Also a huge humiliation. Huge dishonor. Something to recover from. Nothing to celebrate. Like our anniversary or Christmas is.<p>I'm sure it's mom will bring it up well on our money.....lol.....<p>Whether God, or we place our marriage in front of it. We have done so. So nice to continue on as if "it" doesn't exist. To breathe together again w/o OW/OC always in the mix. ~sigh of relief~<p>So again EL I must ask you to shoo!!! Your opinion of my life has been stated once too often.<p>I'm glad you place your oc in front of everything else in YOUR life. When they all grow up who will take up your time then? They do grow you know. You did. Not much. You did though.<p>JMHO.......As if you cared.....heh..heh...heh...<p>Thanks for replies Tigger4jdt and Julia.<p>Miss you and pray for all of you often.<p>love
Debi

JMHO...<p>If God wanted us to be involved in life of oc, He would have done whatever was necessary to make that happen. He did. He put every obstacle in our way and then some. He made it abundantly clear, and I am at peace with, the fact that He will take care of oc and exow. He will watch over oc and our marriage. He knows we did all we could to include ourselves in oc life outside of spending $1000s in court which, as if it matters, we don't have.<p>I thought we would be the exception to all the horror stories of visitation. We are not. I thought we could all live together in harmony. We cannot. Geez, we can't even all live together in civility. <p>I refuse to feel guilty about loving oc. I also refuse to feel guilty about walking away instead of putting oc through tug-o-war. <p>Oh, and EL, get a new line. I find it interesting that you rarely post except to contradict a certain member. Get over yourself. I rarely see any other members here disposing their holier than thou attitude as THE be all end all. Except those who are truly not dealing with reality and the consequences of their own behavior. Let those without sin cast the first stone...<p>I didn't think so.<p>Gem,<p>Thank you. With everything we have been going through, it is comforting to hear more messages from God to reassure us in our chosen path. You have allowed me to take another breath with a little less pain.

Thank you Gem [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]
I'm glad you're doing well.<p>Merry Recovery to all,<p>J
in recovery 3+years and happy [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by EmilyLang:
<strong>He obviously places more value on the marriage then a child. He is entitled to his opinion.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>This IS Marriage BUILDERS.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by EmilyLang:
<strong>doctors, ours included, who believe that turning your back on the child is THE most damaging thing for the child and alomost ALWAYS for the marriage, in the end. by the way some of you talk, you act like you don't realize that this is a living, breathing, innocent CHILD you are talking about. You act like it's just some object.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>This is YOUR child, NOT ours. Why would we care about any OW's child anymore than any kid on the block above our own children or above our marriage? It doesn't make sense. Who cares? Are we supposed to care? Or feel guilt? It ain't gonna happen. Of course, the marriage ALWAYS comes first above and beyond any OC, for obvious reasons.<p>It's YOUR child. Not our child. Not our problem or responsibility. Our ONLY obligation is to our spouses. And their ONLY obligation is to us.<p>End of story.<p>[ February 18, 2002: Message edited by: catnip ]</p>

Gem,<p>You know I supported H having contact. But it's been one nightmare after another. exOW took him to court suing for visitation and now she's being an idiot. We get irrational emails from her at least twice a week as her response to an email from us confirming Sunday at 4:30. I'm done and my H is done. He's ready to sign away his parental rights and never see OC again, just because exOW can't get over the fact that he doesn't want her at visits and doesn't want her in our lives. This women is plain vindictive my H never told her he loved her per her and she told me they never spoke of a future together. So what's the problem. After our next court date if things do not go our way we walk and OC will not be a part of our lives. She will have to ask her mother why? We kept all of our documentation and all the crazy deranged emails exOW has sent. If OC needs to see this as proof H was forced to stay out of her life becasue of her mothers actions so be it. <p>Good luck Gem I'm glad you and your H are doing better. I must admit my recovery was better when OC was not involved and at this point I'm looking forward to exOW screwing up again so H will walk away. Thanks for posting.<p>
Unsure a.k.a Tough Spice [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>PS for all of you newbies I agree 100% that NO CONTACT is the best way to go. I've done both. Tryin I agree with your post 100%.

Thank you for this post! I am struggling with this very issue in recovery with my H. I will ignore the tainted comments regarding no contact. I know my situation and the circumstances of the A and OC. I will support my H, but I choose not to be involved with OW and OC. This is my life, my kids, my family, my decision. JK

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by EmilyLang:
<strong>Julia
You actually think God condones ignoring one's children? What religion are you a part of? Just because one Dr offers this opinion doesn't mean it's right. There are LOTS of doctors, ours included, who believe that turning your back on the child is THE most damaging thing for the child and alomost ALWAYS for the marriage, in the end. I would NEVER put my own needs, my own marital nightmare, over the feelings of an innocent CHILD. Sometimes by the way some of you talk, you act like you don't realize that this is a living, breathing, innocent CHILD you are talking about. You act like it's just some object.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>If you must know, I am a Christian woman and was raised in a Catholic home. I was raised with "religious" beliefs, if you will, but in 1995, God made himself real to me and I accepted Jesus as my Saviour and Lord. I no longer consider myself a Catholic, much to my parent's dismay, but rather a Christian (a believer in Christ). <p>I never said that God condones ignoring one's child. I did infer that when God establishes a covenant between two people, he intends for it NEVER to be separated, not by anything... The Bible is clear when it talks about Abraham almost sacrificing his son in obedience to God. God was testing Abraham's faith in HIM. We, as believers can either accept God's word as truth or dump it in the trash, that's up to each individual.<p>As EL stated, we are each entitled to our opinion so I am going to give mine...<p>Jesus came and asked, "Do you think I have come to give peace on earth"? He says, "no".
Luke 12:53
They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother in law against her daughter in law and daughter in law against mother in law.<p>Nowhere does it say husband against wife. Because that would be going against the very word of God...<p>Ephesians 5:25-29
Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the churh and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her... In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. he who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church...<p>It doesn't get any clearer than that!<p>IMHO, I am not saying that my h should not have a relationship with the oc, that is his decision. What i am saying is that God illustrates just how much he values a marriage, so much that he compares it to the relationship that Christ has with the church. Children are gifts from God, but a child-parent relationship can never equate, at least according to God, the same way a husband and wife do.<p>If you do make the decision to put your child's needs in front of your marriage, that is your choice, but it is not what pleases God. Do you think that God would be grieved more to end a marriage or to end a relationship with a child? The Word is clear...<p>When God establishes a covenant between a man and a woman, it is NEVER intended to be separated... not by anyone, anything... not ow, not oc, not even children born of the husband and wife...Nothing. I believe that when this union is threatened, believers must make wise choices and take necessary action that is in accordance to the Word of God. Christ gave his life for the church, husbands are to do the same for their wives... God's Word, not mine.<p>If you are not a Believer, than this truth would not make any sense right now, but maybe in time it will.<p>[ February 18, 2002: Message edited by: mnca6713julia3 ]</p>

Julia, What a wonderful and well said reply. It truely moved me and brought back so many memories of why I chose to stay with my h and work on my marriage over three years ago when I first found out about the oc. The mother of the oc left me a letter at my place of business introducing herself to me and telling her version of how the oc came to be. <p>I was determined not to let it destroy my marriage and my family. This was the goal the mother of the oc had by leaving me a letter full of lies. My marriage was not something that could be destroyed by the writing of a letter. I have always maintained over the years that I was not going to allow what God had given me to be thrown away over a one night stand by my dh. My children and my marriage were too important for that.<p>Julia, thank you for the loving words of wisdom as to why we all fight so hard to rebuild our marriages and keep our families together. Peace to you, Gabi1116

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by catnip:
<strong>
This IS Marriage BUILDERS.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Exactly. Dear EmilyLang, you have to understand that God has not turned His back on anyone, especially OC's or BS's dealing with their special circumstances.<p>My whole purpose for finding Marriage Builders was #1 to save my marriage. My purpose for posting on this forum was #2 to encourage BS's who have no contact with their WS's OC. To let them know that OC can and will turn out fine when left in God's hands for reasons stated on this thread.<p>God doesn't play favorites. What He has done for my OC, he will do for others--in spite of my past. Prayer is a powerful thing. Prayer can make all the difference in these OC's lives.<p>EmilyLang, I'm not saying that I disagree with your opinion, you make good points. It's just that you are not going to change anyone's beliefs with your disdainful attitude. Even in intact, loving marriages with NO affairs, the children should not be put before the marriage or else the marriage will suffer.<p>Opinions are beliefs that are not proven but seem to us to be true or valid. Without a basis in fact, opinions are uninformed, disputable, and subject to change in the light of new experience so give EVERYBODY a break and get a grip, EmilyLang! <p>Because the FACT is that my OC grew up without contact and he is a fine young man. He is well-adjusted and involved in church (youth group) leadership. For now. I don't know what his married life will be like, I can only trust God. The FACT is that he has a terrific godly stepdad who treats his mom right and IS a great example of what a loving husband is and should be.<p>This is the work of God's hands, not mine, not MM's, not his W's, nor our "godly influence." We probably all failed OC, but God did not. TRUST GOD!!!

I guess in our situation, the NO CONTACT was decided by Mr. "T" long before I even found out about OC. When the dust settled after D-Day and I got a grip on my emotions, I talked to Mr."T" about the possibility of including OC in our lives. We eventually decided it wouldn't work as OW had made my H's live a living H*ll. It would not be fair to the OC to be caught in the middle of this as well as the upset that our very unstable OW would bring to the "FOUR INNOCENT CHILDREN OF THE HOME"...it's funny how OW's seem to convienantly forget that there are OTHER children involved besides theirs.<p>My children have suffered greatly from this. My two older ones grades have plummetted. I was so much in emotional shock, I think our family was in "survival" mode for almost 10 months...it shows in my toddler's actions and defiance (apart from the regular terrible 2's).<p> We are eating Ramon noodles for the rest of this week because we can't afford groceries due to having to pay CS to the OW who probably still gets food stamps and some sort of medical assistance (despite the fact that we put OC on our insurance and have to pay 66%...our medical benefits stinks and she probably regrets that she can't get all of it paid for 100% now from medicaid).
It's my H's fault and OW's fault.<p>There are other children involved besides just the OC and I don't see any OW lamenting about "the poor children of the home...how they suffer too".<p>Our Ex-OW told me on the phone, "I have to look out for the best interests of MY CHILD" That doesn't sound like she gives a rip about mine and she knew mine were there. She also told me on the phone, "I'm madly in love with Mr. "T" and you and your children mean sh*t to me..."<p>That doesn't sound very encouraging to me. That doesn't sound like she cares about my children. I'm gonna look out for my own too. <p>Too bad my H was thinking about himself instead of me and our children of the home. For that I have to pray that he learned his lesson and that actions have consequences. For the longest time I doubted his decision making skills. One thing I do not doubt and that is NO CONTACT is the best decision he could have made out of this situation.<p>Now we "heal"...now we "recover". We are doing great and apparently the "true love" OW had for Mr. "T" was fleeting...she's rumored to be engaged and we are more than thrilled for her. If I could send her family on a one-way trip somewhere I would.....j/k..... [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>__________________________________________________<p>Gem, it's a pleasure to see you on the board again...I am printing out Dr. Harley's response to you, if that's ok. It's worth saving and keeping. I do miss your posts, but am always glad to see you around here!<p>Catnip, I agree with your assessment that OW's think only of their "spawn" (you put things so eloquently...) and not about anyone else...you write many things that I myself think and agree with but don't have the eloquence to write.<p>Trying4Sainthood,
I'm praying for you. Keep in touch. <p>BinThereDunThat...I appreciate your testimony about how God cares for OC's and everyone involved. Your sharing of what God can do to people encourages me. I would love to hear your testimony sometime. I know deep in my heart, that God has promised me and He told me, "Don't worry, I allowed OC to be conceived. I will take care of her." I am at peace as is my H about OC.<p>For all my other sisters and brothers who share this painful common bond, I am praying for you. I watch this board avidly. I wish I could offer more advice and be more "profound" but alas....I'm ten months into recovery and my D-Day is around the corner.<p>BUT....(there's always a BUT...LOL!)<p>* There are no set guidelines in this, one size does not fit all...what works for some, doesn't work for others and contact or no contact is a personal issue that requires much serious thought and prayer. In our case, we counted the costs before the DNA test came in and in our case, we feel we have chosen wisely for our family.<p>Much love and hugs and prayers to y'all....
Twiisty<p>
[img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Gem,
Thank you for posting Dr.Harley's response. <p>Right now at 10months I wish we were following his advice, but we have taken the tough route of trying to incorporate visitation into our marital recovery. I told H in beginning I would try, but we have been thrown every obsticle. <p>We are now at that turning point also of possibly signing away rights, but I know that H truely wants to be a part of OC's life. I wish I could say that his A was a one night stand, but it was a long relationship. That is the hardest part for me to swallow, looking at two OC and looking at the span of time 4yr old and 10mo.old. <p>As Catnip brought up, these children do not mean a thing to me, hopefully in time my feelings will change from looking at them as objects of betrayl. I actually posed that question yesterday to my therapist, or rather made the statement, I would rather I didn't have these C in my life, and I felt guilty for feeling that way. Her response was I had no reason to feel guilty, and feelings were perfectly normal. She said I did not choose for H to have affair. Gosh I love that lady, she does make me feel better after my hour is over.<p>Thanks for all you "oldies" to come out and give your words of wisdom and advice, I really miss seeing your posts. <p>Tina