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OH and BTW, if his wife is embracing MB concepts to survive her H's affair with you, then I have a feeling their marriage stands a GOOD CHANCE at recovering!!!<p>This is from Dr.Harley's Q&A column on how affairs should end:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>
...You may feel that after an affair a marriage doesn't amount to much anyway. But the way I suggest ending an affair in this Q&A column will give your marriage the greatest opportunity for a complete recovery...</strong><hr></blockquote> <p>For the complete article, click here:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html

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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by tobemommy:
[QB]She wants to fix their marriage but wonders if they will ever be in love again. Even if they find this again, he knows it will never be equivalent to what he and I have. <p>
I do not understand how avoiding a lover can be the right thing for a marriage. If it cannot survive him being around the lover, then there is not a marriage worth saving. QB]<hr></blockquote><p>Most OP's are under the illusions that what they think they "have" is so much more than what the Wayward has with his or her spouse. They think it is so much more...not close to being equivalent to what the OP and Wayward had. <p>It isn't until the OP has gone through their pregnancy alone and are raising their OC alone that they realize that they had nothing with the Wayward...they were simply a willing accomplice to the destruction of a family and a marriage.<p>
How can you not understand how avoiding a "lover" is the right thing for a marriage?!? A potential or an ex-lover has no business whatsoever being in a couple's marriage. There is no place for a third party in a marriage. What are you thinking? Do you hear yourself? Does that make any sense at all? Come on!!!<p>No real marriage can or should survive the Wayward being around the former or potential lover and to say that unless the Wayward is allowed to be around this interloper then the marriage is not worth saving is hilarious. <p>Your situation is a terrible one and one I do not envy. I am afraid you are going to get stuck holding the bag and most likely you will be caring for this child completely on your own without any help or involvement from the Wayward.<p>My advice to you is not to believe any married man for they all have agendas and agendas have nothing to do with love and everything to do with whatever is lacking within themselves. Most of the time, it has nothing to do with their spouses. Most of the time, the wife is completely unaware that the spouse is unhappy about anything and is floored when she discovers he is being unfaithful. Most of the time his unhappiness doesn't even come about because of her and is mostly from other issues revolving around his self worth. So, don't get too cocky that he was crazy about you and he is just feeling obligated towards her because the reverse is usually true.<p>Hope things work out for you and you will find stability for your child. Good luck<p>Catnip =^^=<p>Attention BTDT...I see you are burning the midnight oil as well. I shouldn't post when I am tired...<p>[ March 26, 2002: Message edited by: catnip ]</p>

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Too funny catnip! We were all over each other's posts at the same time--hitting on the same issues. Hope she listens up before it's too late to save her own marriage... There's always hope...

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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by tobemommy:
<strong>Goodness. I have never encountered such a bitter group of people. I'll pray for all of you. I fear even in my situation, I will fare better than many at this website. For someone not to view a child as a blessing is a true tragedy. God loves all his children the same regardless of how they came about. He may even have great plans for this child. Hopefully through whatever this recovery is you are undergoing, you will find peace and be strong to endure what life has given you. I hope repliers are more kind towards others who need help in these forums. I can withstand it but for some, I do worry about all of the negativity and judgement handed out.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I couldn't agree with you more. The spouses that have been deceived are more bitter than they are in love and are more interested in revenge it seems. Keep the 2 people who love eachother apart, settle for a life with a person who is in love with someone else, all for the sake of being the "winner". I'm sorry but that is the general theme I find here. I also am the OW, my MM and I have a child together. He is a blessing to us both. We love each other very much but as with anyone in these circumstances, to be together would hurt his 2 OC, wife, family, as well as my husband and my family. So, I can tell you what we have done. After 6 years together, and I admit, mostly due to circumstances changing our ability to see eachother daily, we are trying very hard to let go of eachother in terms of being together. We decided we couldn't live with the pain we'd cause others and we did not want to destroy our childs life by divorcing our spouses and bring him into our lives at a time that would cause him to be unaccepted by our families. (his is extremly religious) We logically thought it through and decided that for the 3 children involved, it would be better if he remained my good friend who can still see and know our son but not play a parental role. It worked out best for everyone. I have sacraficed alot for our child and for my lover who I want to be happy. We keep telling eachother that someday, we will be happy again, apart from eachother. But it hurts more than I can tell you. My son has a fantasic father who loves and wants him. He is the best thing that ever happened to my H and myself. I think some of the spouses here do not understand is that just because they met him first doesn't make him theirs. He isn't a possession. Love is not about rules, unfortunately, as it would be alot simpler if it were. In my situation we did what we thought best for everyone else and put aside the fact that we are in love and wanted to have a life together. It wasn't about who met who first but about sacrafice for love larger than our own.

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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by hopin2heal61497:
<strong>Excellent post heavenly!!!<p>:: bowing out::</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Wow, you seem to be the one in a fantasyland. I have been the OW for 6 years and my mm has never said the things you say your husband told you and his ow. We struggled and tried to stop our relationship, we both have been with our spouses since highschool. We didn't experience the incredible intimacy as you claim and although sex isn't the driving force in an affair, believe me, if it were that good in your bed, he would never have left it to make love to his other love.
I think you are trying too hard to convince yourself of what marriage really is. I spent plenty of monotonous time with my lover, it wasn't all roses as you seem to think. We have seen all sides, good and bad of eachother, etc. We still are in love. He and I care for our spouses very much and because of children, we have decided not to pursue divorces. So you see, we remain in marriages, but not because our souls are doing anything with the spouse's soul. People change. People fall out of love. My lover and I struggled with our feelings, we weren't telling eachother what we thought the other wanted to hear, we didn't even want to admit our feelings for a long time. We didn't know how to muster up the desire to be with our spouses to keep the marriage alive. All things we talked to eachother about but don't be fooled to think your husband is going to tell you all.
I'm not trying to be hurtful, but your response more about trying to hurt someone and not about realty. Most deceived spouses can't believe this but many of us stay with in our marriages because of baggage issues (children, family,money, property, etc) not because our souls are united and we are so in love with spouse and sex is so good with them. Get in the real.

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Catnip, DTDT, Heavenly,others,<p>Well, it seems this thread has been highjacked. Therefore, nothing serious or useful will be discussed.<p>Once again, as has so often in the past, we have the essential element of a thread that reminds me of the story of the guy that murders his parents and then throws himself on the mercy of the court because he is an orphan. <p>The logic is about is rational.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

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CMiranda, Do you honestly think you are sparing your spouses any pain here? Do you really think that you and your lover are being so unselfish? How magnanimus of you both to put others feelings ahead of your own.
By the way, I am the one who had the A and OC in my marriage. I am not a BW. Although I once had those same feelings about the OM in my situation that was fantasyland, make believe. Give me something real over that anyday. I think it would surprise you if you knew how your MM really felt about his wife.

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Sorry JL, I posted before I saw your post or I wouldn't have wasted my time. Guess I'm too new here to realize a hi-jacking when I see It.

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CMiranda<p>It confuses me that OW's come here all the time and proclaim how 'bitter' we Betrayed Spouses are as if any bitterenss we might feel is somehow more of a transgression than that of an adulterous woman who lacks the integrity to to care how her actions effect an innocent family.<p>You can call our profound pain 'bitter' if you wish. You can call our sadness and our grief 'bitter' if you wish. You can mock us for wanting to 'win' in the beginning as if that is our only reason for wanting our marriage while discounting all the endless facets and intricacies of our marriage, not acknowledging that this is just a small component to the huge picture of all of it. Discount the history, the family, the years of struggle, the years of joy and accomplishment...you can dismiss it all away with glib sound bites of 'bitterness' and something so shallow as wanting to 'win' as if that is the entire reason instead of just an early desire to keep what we have.<p>No one here has ever said that their marriage was and is nothing but great hot sex and intense depth and love all the time. Far from it. Married people know better than anyone that marriage is a journey with joys, sorrows, adjustments. Sometimes the couple is crazy in love with their spouse. Other times, they are mildly affectionate for a time. But it is all cyclical and if the couple hangs in there, the marriage cycles around once again to hot passion and eventually to a higher plane of understanding, compassion and growth.<p>It is apparent that you do not know the women here, have not heard their stories, know their personalities, have had the honor of feeling their strength and seeing their beauty. OW's are notorious for coming here trying to stir things up and we have become adept at chasing them from our site with the help of savvy moderators who can spot trouble makers. None of us care here about OW's or their spawn, their heartache, their silly mewlings or points of view. None of us believe posters who come here lamenting how their MM is still in love with them or how noble they are because they have decided to step away, like you, to allow your MM to find happiness with his wretched wife. If there had been any nobility in the first place, none of us would be here.<p>The OW is a pathetic example of low self worth run amuck. She is usually desperate for a husband and is willing to settle for left overs from someone else's marriage, garnering a smattering of false self worth for being able to lure the MM from his wife for a short time, only to end up alone while MM desperately works to restore his marriage and repair the damage.<p>OW's pathetically come here all the time spouting how sorry they feel for the Betrayed Spouse and how bitter we all are when in reality it is the OW who needs the pity and displays bitterness at every opportunity with their disrespectful judgments. Simply by coming to Marriage Builders sends up huge flares that the OW is in severe pain trying to justify her existance by trying to start something here, otherwise if she were OK and right with the world, she wouldn't be coming here to tell us how bitter we are.<p>We are bitter about somethings, and rightly so. But it is a temporary 'feeling' directly connected to the heartache we may be experiencing. It goes away in time and only flares up when we get an interloper here carrying on about their spawn and how it is somehow a 'blessing', a 'miracle' and somehow divine. Well, I grant you it is all that in YOUR eyes, but it isn't any of that in our eyes. <p>Our children are blessings and miracles to us. None of you OW's care a lick about our 'blessings' or 'miracles'. In fact, none of you gave any of our blessings or miracles a second thought about their happiness, future or what this revelation would do to them. You didn't care. You simply just did not care. To me, that is far, far worse than anything any of the Betrayed have said or feel here.<p>So, give it a rest and get off a board where you and your opinions do not matter and stay off Marriage Builders because we know you wouldn't be here if you had good intentions. You certainly are not here to enhance or build up your marriage or mine, so go to the forums where your opinions are in line with others like you. You have no business here and we have nothing to offer you as you have nothing to offer us.<p>As for spouses being each others 'possessions', you couldn't be more wrong. In the marriage vows I spoke with my husband all those years ago, we promised to be there for each other, for richer, poorer, in sickness and health, forsaking all others and keeping only onto each other. We acknowledged we were ONE and part of the other from this day forward. Vows were broken, shattered in fact, but that did not change the fact that we belonged to each other and no one else, and would for all time, til death do us part. <p>All the songs say 'you belong' to me, and 'you're mine' and when a couple are married, they do indeed see each other as belonging to the other. Every single perosn married on the face of this earth feel this way so why do you proclaim this is not true? What is wrong with being possessed by your heart's desire, the love of your life? Nothing. It is a good thing, a great thing, a blessed thing, designed and executed by God. And, I will side with God any day over some OW saying that my hsuband is not my possession or I amnot his. My husband loves to hear me call him "my husband" and introduce him as my husband. he says it makes him feel special and warm and wonderful to know someone loves him so much that I claim him as my own.<p>It 'feels' good to be loved and cared for and cherished by someone you are in love with. It makes life sublime and worth living.<p>Catnip =^^=

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Sorry JL and WIB...posting at the same time...I bit, couldn't help it. Haven't posted much lately and my soap box was beckoning. It is too much fun sparing, but you are right. Sorry.<p>Your analogy is priceless, JL. Hilarious. I love it.<p>Catnip =^^=

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That's ok Catnip, I'm actually starting to enjoy reading your posts(when we're on the same side that is [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] )<p>Hope you had a great weekend. Start another thread to tell us about it.

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WIB,<p>No need to apologize. Your response was quite good. But, watch this thing go down the drain. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>It is amazing how the human brain works though.
I learn something new everyday I read here.<p>Sadly, if the original poster was asking for help, ideas, or simply suggestions about her marriage, or addressing this mess most would do their best to help. It is usually just a post with an agenda to convince people that marriages, children are secondary to their "true love".<p>Sorry, I am sounding sarcastic. I'll shut up.<p>Glad to see you posting.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

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Hey Catnip,<p>If you and WIB want to let loose be my guest. You surely don't need my permission. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] I do know what you mean, I have a hard time remaining silent from time to time myself. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] As you both well know. <p>Must go.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

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You are in a very tough situation and I hope it works out for you and the baby. If he doesn't give himself 100% and divorce his wife, then you should seriously reconsider staying with your husband and try to work it out if that is possible at this point. It sounds like the mm is confused (big surprise) regarding what he should do. Ask yourself how it will impact the baby if you let him acknowledge the baby as his but stay with his wife? Is he the best choice for being a father to this child?
Your baby is a gift and a miracle. Do not let any of these bitter women who are carrying alot of anger and jealously let you feel any different.
I'm sure your relationship with your mm is meaningful and real. Some of these people are hurting and can't accept that affairs are about love and need. Not obligation, and that hurts. We all hurt when we are in an affair or a victim of one. Imagine if you were in their situation, the other foot so to speak. They have to tell themselves (such as heavenlybody) that their husbands are in love with them, the sex was great, and what you have with him is meaningless. Of course, that is in most cases, far from reality! That is how they cope unfortunately. Affairs last for alot of reasons, and a great marriage/sex/relationship at home is surely not one of them. Anyway, Your focus should be on what is best for the baby now, not getting the man. Do what is best for the baby, look to the future and don't try to manipulate the present. A little person is depending on you and deserves your undivided loyalty.

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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by CMiranda:
<strong>...They have to tell themselves (such as heavenlybody) that their husbands are in love with them, the sex was great, and what you have with him is meaningless. Of course, that is in most cases, far from reality! That is how they cope unfortunately. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>OH PLEASE!!! Give me a break... I'm sure what you meant to say is that "BS's choose to believe their wayward spouses when their WS tells them that they love their BS and what they had with the OP is meaningless!" DUH! Otherwise, they would LEAVE and go BE with the OP, since it is so meaningful. That is NOT the reality tho! The reality is that when an OC is conceived, WS's are forced to take a look at their TRUE priorities, which usually is NOT the OP. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by CMiranda:
<strong> Affairs last for alot of reasons, and a great marriage/sex/relationship at home is surely not one of them. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>Not true. I can tell you have not been reading many of the betrayed spouse's versions of what state their marriages were when affairs were carrying on. Many times, the marriage was going along just fine. Don't forget that wayward spouses tend to LIE... Cheating goes hand in hand with lying BTW, in case you didn't know that...<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by CMiranda:
<strong>...Anyway, Your focus should be on what is best for the baby now, not getting the man. Do what is best for the baby, look to the future and don't try to manipulate the present. A little person is depending on you and deserves your undivided loyalty.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I couldn't agree with you more on this one. Time to move on and focus on your own life. Obviously MM is focusing on HIS priorities and his own life...<p>Just Learning, you are right! HIJACKED! And where in the heck is the original poster??? Makes you wonder if this thread is even for real. Oh well, maybe some lurker can glean something from everything that was said here.<p>Raw emotions do not equate to bitterness in my book. People being passionate about saving their marriages doesn't mean jealousy and anger. Not at all. Marriage building is work. I have noticed that MORE marriages recovering from OCs are stronger than the ones without OCs. Many WS's without OC's in the picture seem to linger in withdrawal states where WS's with OC's refocus on their love for their spouses IMMEDIATELY! Just like the MM described in this original poster's situation. She was dumped and didn't want to accept it. That's how I read it. I could be wrong, but the original poster has seemingly abandoned her thread. *sigh* Oh well... I wish she would come back and provide some feedback for us so it won't feel like such a waste of our good time.

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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by BINthereDUNthat:
<strong><p>I couldn't agree with you more on this one. Time to move on and focus on your own life. Obviously MM is focusing on HIS priorities and his own life...<p>It doesn't sound like mm is focusing on leaving her or their child. It seems that he is confused. My point to her is that she needs to focus on the baby and not him. I think at this point his priority is trying to get his life put together again and he's trying to figure out how to do that. In many cases, he's worried about how change will affect him, will he have to move out and pay mortgage, child support, alimony, etc. What will people think in their social circle/family. That is what I am saying so she needs to carry on and whatever happens between the adults IS secondary as the children come first. I believe ALL children. Not just children of the marriage. Children of the love affair as well. <p>Just Learning, you are right! HIJACKED! And where in the heck is the original poster??? Makes you wonder if this thread is even for real. Oh well, maybe some lurker can glean something from everything that was said here.<p>Raw emotions do not equate to bitterness in my book. People being passionate about saving their marriages doesn't mean jealousy and anger. Not at all. Marriage building is work. I have noticed that MORE marriages recovering from OCs are stronger than the ones without OCs. Many WS's without OC's in the picture seem to linger in withdrawal states where WS's with OC's refocus on their love for their spouses IMMEDIATELY! Just like the MM described in this original poster's situation. She was dumped and didn't want to accept it. That's how I read it. I could be wrong, but the original poster has seemingly abandoned her thread. *sigh* Oh well... I wish she would come back and provide some feedback for us so it won't feel like such a waste of our good time.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I agree that relationships are work! Any kind requires work. I don't know that I see the same things you do relative to OC and WS, etc. My reasoning is that the WS in many cases is in love with OW/M and while loves the spouse, is not "in love" and there is a difference. It is not as simple as changing feelings like you suggest. I have been working on it for a long time and it is just not that simple. If it were, we'd all get out of painful relationships and not fall into despair and hopelessness.
You are right, raw emotion doesn't but the fact that I hear people all over this site lash out and seem to find some happiness at the sorrow and despair of others tells me that there is a alot of jealously here. I'm not saying i don't understand it's origin, but lets be honest, all of us, no matter where we are in this sad little circle want to believe that our relationship with the person in question was the real deal, the most important to him/her. The fact is simple that the lover intruded on the marriage, not the other way around. In some cases, certainly not all, perhaps the spouse is better off out of the marriage.

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By the way, where is the person who posted the original message you want to know! Well, after reading all of your ridiculous responses I would think that she has decided you people have nothing valid to offer her!

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I apologize for my lack of posting ability here, I wanted to respond to your quote but I don't see it. Anyway, it is important to note that I think it depends on who you ask about the state of the marriage. If the WS were asked by someone "safe" who he or she can be honest with, I can almost guarantee that "things are going along just fine" would not be the their answer. Many spouses look back at a period where they were being deceived and see signs that escaped them at the time. Others, that isn't the case. It depends. But the person who is living the double life generally isn't happy in the marriage and finds (by accident in many cases) someone who makes them feel happy. I do agree, lying is definetely required to keep the 2 lives going. From what I know and read, the affair is a solution to a problem. Most aren't just flings for fun because the marriage is so fullfilling. Lets be real here.

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CMiranda, I was the WS. I lived the double life. The OP is an escape from reality and nothing more. Ask me now if tha A was a huge mistake. Ask me now who is and really had always been the one I truly loved. I ended the A. I came back to earth. WSs usually do. And I can say with complete and total conviction that what I had with the OP, although it felt wonderful at the time, can never compare to what I have with my H.
The A was the single biggest MISTAKE I have ever made, that's all it is, period!

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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by CMiranda:
<strong>By the way, where is the person who posted the original message you want to know! Well, after reading all of your ridiculous responses I would think that she has decided you people have nothing valid to offer her!</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Oh well, that's your defensive feelings... Why don't you just calm down and let her be the judge of that...

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