the pregnant other woman - Marriage Builders® Forums

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I am a pregnant "other woman". My husband and I are to divorce this summer (proceedings began last summer). My lover is married and just filled out a questionnaire from this web site for his wife as they may enter counseling. He calls me every day and cannot imagine not being here for the birth and life of this child. He is apathetic about his marriage and prays every night that God's will be that we be together but he has 3 children and a wife who cannot see the love he and I have and how that will last forever despite distance. She wants to fix their marriage but wonders if they will ever be in love again. Even if they find this again, he knows it will never be equivalent to what he and I have. I do not understand how avoiding a lover can be the right thing for a marriage. If it cannot survive him being around the lover, then there is not a marriage worth saving. It would only be one based on avoidance of the truth about his feelings. What to do?

tobemommy,This website is called Marriage Builders. It is for people want help in healing their marriages. If you read the info on this website, you will see that the entire purpose of what people so here is to try to recover from affairs not getting their lovers away from their spouses. It is possible to do this, but not as long as the other person is around. You might be better served going to another website that is for the "other person".

firefly10:You are too kind! Actually, tbmommy deserves kindness as well, but so do the other parties in all of this - her H, her OM, and his W. She should know that, particularly if OM and OMW are beginning counselling, her OM is trying in his own way to save his M. She should consider trying to save her own, if that's possible. I'm not trying to tell her just what she should do here, but it should be obvious that expecting OM to have a relationship with his W and her at the same time is not going to work at all. They'll all be miserable.

tbmommy,I actually agree with both replys, but want to add that this is, indeed, a site to repair marriages, not break them up and re-marry the newly divorced. Your situation is not one that would benefit, if you are determined to get divorced, and your OM is working on his M, you are going to be left to raise this child on your own. Therefore, you will be the looser. If your OM decides to get divorced, and marry you, his W and THEIR children will then suffer. Either way, someone is going to suffer, and, to put it lightly, his W and THEIR children were in the picture long before you! Now, if you decide that you should try to work on your marriage(of course, we don't know the reason(s) for your D) and your H is willing to raise this child, then you will receive much advice, otherwise, you won't find much, especially here where it is mainly W's dealing with their H's child from an A. We are trying to save marriages, not encourage infidelity.To all others, sorry if this was a little harsh, just hit a nerve!Tigger

I would not have posted on this site if I was not ready for these replies. I knew that the "other woman" has no rights in these people's eyes. I have asked for forgiveness and know that God will not give me more than I can handle. I know this now. I also do not want to encourage infidelity, only truth about who is right for whom. I believe skirting the issue of the truth about feelings and love does more to hurt than help people. Doesn't anyone view this child like all children as a blessing who deserves the best they can have?

[ April 22, 2002: Message edited by: Tina71 ]

Goodness. I have never encountered such a bitter group of people. I'll pray for all of you. I fear even in my situation, I will fare better than many at this website. For someone not to view a child as a blessing is a true tragedy. God loves all his children the same regardless of how they came about. He may even have great plans for this child. Hopefully through whatever this recovery is you are undergoing, you will find peace and be strong to endure what life has given you. I hope repliers are more kind towards others who need help in these forums. I can withstand it but for some, I do worry about all of the negativity and judgement handed out.

"doesn't anyone view this child like all children as a blessing who deserves the best they can have ?"
I think I'm one of the few here that agree with that. All children are a blessing regardless of how they were concieved.This is my Doc's only opportunity to have his own "natural " child and I'm behind his desire to be an active part of his/her life. after all he's agreed to take my children into his home and love them like they were his own. Now while I have no ill will towards this OC...I do struggle with OW's pregnancy, somehow I've made this into 2 seperate issues.I infact despise her for her part in all of this.
But somehow we'll make this "unconventional" family work...that is if I survive this pregnancy.LOL
It is my hope to somehow come to terms with this woman( God willing).Peace! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

tbmommy:"Doesn't anyone view this child like all children as a blessing who deserves the best they can have? "Absolutely! He/she will be a person, regardless of who her/his parents are. We all deserve a good life."I knew that the "other woman" has no rights in these people's eyes."I don't believe this is true, either. There are many "other women" who contribute to this site, but they are here specifically to rebuild their marriages and help others understand what they're going through. I can't comment on all the God stuff, I'm an atheist, but I believe very strongly in integrity and doing what's right. This OM of yours has a family, and appears to be willing to work with his W to rebuild his marriage. Give him the chance! And the only way to do that is to leave him alone, completely. IF he and his W can't rebuild their M and end it in divorce, then it might make sense for him to contact YOU, when he's unattached and he's not then "cheating" to be with you. But I wouldn't hold my breath - it could take years. Many people her have spent that long rebuilding trust and honesty within their relationships. Having someone like you "in the wings" doesn't help that process at all. Sorry your new child will likely grow up without a father, but it's far less traumatic for you to deal with the pain of losing OM than it is for his W and family, who have believed in him all their lives, to deal with it. You will get harsh replies from this forum, but I think for the most part that people really care how you feel and would like to help, provided you understand where they are coming from.

tobemommy
I'm sorry if you have to hear so much negative. I will pray for you and your baby. Hope everything turns out right and wish you much happiness.

Dear 2Bm,I also agree that all children are blessings. However, if you look at your initial post, you will see the reason why you are encountering some hostility at this site.Like many of the ex-OWs in our lives, from your post it looks like the child is a secondary issue -- getting the man is your primary issue.
And, unfortunately, it seems that your lover has made his choice. It is a major step in a marriage to decide to enter counselling. That action alone says to all the BSs on this board that he has chosen and made a commitment -- to try to make his marriage work.From my H's affair, I have learned a great deal about spouses who cheat. My H was telling the OW the same things your MM is telling you -- I love you more than I have ever loved anyone -- my wife doesn't understand me -- we barely speak to each other -- I have never opened up to anyone like I do with you -- yada, yada, yada ... Well, the sad truth is while he was saying this to the OW, he was home every night with me, he was in our bed sharing the most incredible intimacy, and he was telling me that he could never love anyone like he loved me. Cheaters can do that so well that you cannot distinguish the truth from a lie. It is like they develop two separate personalities and they switch from one to another -- each telling the other person what they want to hear.I am sure your MM wants to be there for your child. But don't confuse guilt with love. My H was sneaking out of the house to see his OC because he felt responsible for this little person he brought into the world but he did not want to cause me any more pain than he had already put me through. His guilt was overwhelming. And he told me that he felt so horrible about the situation because he led the OW on and made her believe that they had a future together. But, when she pushed too much and got pregnant to try to force his hand, that is when he woke up from his fog and realized where his love and loyalty really was.2B, marriage becomes monotonous under the best of circumstances because marriage is real life. Bills need to be paid, repairs have to be made, cleaning, laundry, the list goes on and on. An affair is fantasyland because you only get to spend the quality time with the OP. My H told me at the end of it all that his ex-OW had been an escape -- an opportunity to be anyone he wanted to be without the history, the problems and the baggage he carried in his real life with me. But you can't live in a fantasy forever. And that is probably why your MM is trying to put the pieces back together with his wife. Don't underestimate the bond of marriage. It is not a joining of bodies and sometimes hearts like in an affair. It is the joining of two souls to become one person. The monotony of life may shake it up, but it doesn't break that bond so easily.Your child is a gift. So, I think you need to stop scheming to break up a marriage that seems to want to survive and start understanding that YOU are going to be ultimately responsible for the life growing inside you. I think you should start thinking about what it means to be a single mother and how you are going to cope alone.In your initial post, you ended by saying that if the marriage "cannot survive him being around the lover, then there is not a marriage worth saving. It would only be one based on avoidance of the truth about his feelings."It seems that you are the one who is avoiding the truth about his feelings. Actions speak so much louder than words. He and his wife are trying to make their marriage work. That says it all.I hope that God will lead you to happiness and eventually to a full life of your own with a loving H.God bless and protect you,
love,
heavenly

Excellent post heavenly!!!:: bowing out::

<blockquote>quote:<hr> I hope repliers are more kind towards others who need help in these forums. I can withstand it but for some, I do worry about all of the negativity and judgement handed out. <hr></blockquote>I will say it one more time, this is a site to build up marriages, not tear them down. Your posts here are all about you and your MM either getting married, or something along those lines. <blockquote>quote:<hr> I do not understand how avoiding a lover can be the right thing for a marriage. If it cannot survive him being around the lover, then there is not a marriage worth saving. It would only be one based on avoidance of the truth about his feelings. What to do? <hr></blockquote>As other's have said, it seems as if he is willing to work on his marriage, and, contrary to what you may believe, it can be repaired, and survive something such as this! Oh, and I have never said that a child is not a blessing! All children are blessings, just not to everyone else! The reason you are getting such negative replies here is your agenda in divorcing and wanting the MM to divorce and marry you! I don't feel that it has anything to do with your pregnancy, just your attitude!

Where's Catnip when you need her???

Tobemommy.You mentioned that you and your husband are in D proceedings prior to getting pregnant with the MM. Do you already have children with your husband? Was your current pregnancy planned or an accident. Seems to me from your post, that you are trying to get the MM to break away from his family to be with you. Do you feel that your pregnancy will make that decision easier for him. If so, you are only kidding yourself. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]

sorry, something happened to my keyboard, Anyway, Your lover, is working on rebuilding his marriage. That is a fact you must accept. Yes, he calls you daily, he feels guilty. He has done much to his family, the wife and children who love him are standing by him. Yet you feel that you deserve him?
I am sorry this is happening to you. But those are the consequences of getting involved with a MM.
This is harsh. But its reality.

I understand there are other sites that would probably be much more helpful to you. I feel badly for your children, and his, along with your spouses. Perhaps one day he will look back (and you may too) like my H did, and realize it was an addiction, not love at all. I hope for the little ones' sake that their lives aren't destroyed by this.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by tobemommy:
I believe skirting the issue of the truth about feelings and love does more to hurt than help people. 
Doesn't anyone view this child like all children as a blessing who deserves the best they can have?<hr></blockquote>Hi tobe"Feelings" are fluffy. "Love" is a choice. I choose to love someone for their qualities or how they make me feel when I am around them. Love itself is not a feeling, it is a choice. It is important for you to understand this because it is the key to why your MM has gone back to his wife. He chooses to love her. He chooses to make his life with her. As for your child being a blessing to you and deserving the best you can offer her/him, I couldn't agree more. it is your child and it is your obligation to give it the best you have and see this child as your blessing, regardless of how any outsider sees your child. It is important to understand this child is your child, it belongs to you. Other people will simply see it as any kid on the block it is not emotionally connected to. It doesn't mean they do not see it as a blessing...they do...they see it as your blessing.May God bless you and your child.Catnip =^^=

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by tobemommy:
...My lover is married and just filled out a questionnaire from this web site for his wife as they may enter counseling...I do not understand how avoiding a lover can be the right thing for a marriage. If it cannot survive him being around the lover, then there is not a marriage worth saving. It would only be one based on avoidance of the truth about his feelings. What to do?<hr></blockquote>Are you sure you are not the one who is avoiding the truth about his feelings since he has obviously chosen to stick it out and work on his marriage????????????????? I think you should probably move on with your own life and let him move on with his since that seems to be what he has decided to do. He said he "can't imagine not being there for the child's birth, etc." well, essentially, that means he is NOT going to be there for you... Right? Maybe you should even consider adoption as a viable alternative so that your baby can grow up in a loving, two parent family.I never considered adoption for my OC, but if I knew then what I know now, I would have.Maybe there is even another chance for you to work out your own marriage. Why should you let your man get away because of a fantasy affair? Why should you lose your marriage while he has chosen to work on his? He tells you that it's his wife who wants to work on it, but if he didn't want to work on it, he would have left her and married you in a heartbeat. Evidently his heart is truly at home with his wife and children. Give him that right. Move on...

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by tobemommy:
[QB]Goodness. I have never encountered such a bitter group of people. I'll pray for all of you.QB]<hr></blockquote>Stick around! What you perceive as "bitterness" is just pragmatic, no-nonsense remarks and advice...just the truth and nothing but.You have to understand it is hard for some of us not to laugh out loud at the ridiculousness of some of the statements we have encountered here from OP's trying to make the walking wounded here feel guilty or obligated to love their spawn or feel responsible for it. After all, it is the OP's OC, not ours. We had nothing to do with the decisions to conceive or have or keep OC and are forever held financially responsible for the most suprememly selfish act on the face of the earth of having an interloper storm into our marriages and have intimacies with our spouse and conceive a kid. Then, laughably, the OP's chastise us for not mewling fondly over their spawn as if it is the Messiah, as if we should be glad and rejoice over their child. I mean, it defies logic. It isn't OUR child. It certainly isn't OUR blessing.While none of us wish the OC any ill will, we do not wish to have any involvement (in most cases) because of the detriment to our marriages and families. We ALL wish they (OP & OC) did not exist at all but realize because of our spouse's unbelievable selfishness, we will bear the pain of this breach of trust and betrayal all our lives whether we stay with our spouses or not. Divorce does not diminish the pain. Many of us have so much history with our spouses we opt to stay and work things out, if we can. That is why we are here at Marriage Builders.It is highly inappropriate for an OP to come to Marriage Builders and say they are going to "pray" for us as if we are the ones who are looked upon with disfavor by God. The ludicrous, self-righteous chastising from an OP does nothing but make us groan and roll our eyes. It's silly. It won't work here.Catnip =^^=

OH and BTW, if his wife is embracing MB concepts to survive her H's affair with you, then I have a feeling their marriage stands a GOOD CHANCE at recovering!!!This is from Dr.Harley's Q&A column on how affairs should end: <blockquote>quote:<hr>
...You may feel that after an affair a marriage doesn't amount to much anyway. But the way I suggest ending an affair in this Q&A column will give your marriage the greatest opportunity for a complete recovery...<hr></blockquote> For the complete article, click here:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by tobemommy:
[QB]She wants to fix their marriage but wonders if they will ever be in love again. Even if they find this again, he knows it will never be equivalent to what he and I have. 
I do not understand how avoiding a lover can be the right thing for a marriage. If it cannot survive him being around the lover, then there is not a marriage worth saving. QB]<hr></blockquote>Most OP's are under the illusions that what they think they "have" is so much more than what the Wayward has with his or her spouse. They think it is so much more...not close to being equivalent to what the OP and Wayward had. It isn't until the OP has gone through their pregnancy alone and are raising their OC alone that they realize that they had nothing with the Wayward...they were simply a willing accomplice to the destruction of a family and a marriage.
How can you not understand how avoiding a "lover" is the right thing for a marriage?!? A potential or an ex-lover has no business whatsoever being in a couple's marriage. There is no place for a third party in a marriage. What are you thinking? Do you hear yourself? Does that make any sense at all? Come on!!!No real marriage can or should survive the Wayward being around the former or potential lover and to say that unless the Wayward is allowed to be around this interloper then the marriage is not worth saving is hilarious. Your situation is a terrible one and one I do not envy. I am afraid you are going to get stuck holding the bag and most likely you will be caring for this child completely on your own without any help or involvement from the Wayward.My advice to you is not to believe any married man for they all have agendas and agendas have nothing to do with love and everything to do with whatever is lacking within themselves. Most of the time, it has nothing to do with their spouses. Most of the time, the wife is completely unaware that the spouse is unhappy about anything and is floored when she discovers he is being unfaithful. Most of the time his unhappiness doesn't even come about because of her and is mostly from other issues revolving around his self worth. So, don't get too cocky that he was crazy about you and he is just feeling obligated towards her because the reverse is usually true.Hope things work out for you and you will find stability for your child. Good luckCatnip =^^=Attention BTDT...I see you are burning the midnight oil as well. I shouldn't post when I am tired...[ March 26, 2002: Message edited by: catnip ]

Too funny catnip! We were all over each other's posts at the same time--hitting on the same issues. Hope she listens up before it's too late to save her own marriage... There's always hope...

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by tobemommy:
Goodness. I have never encountered such a bitter group of people. I'll pray for all of you. I fear even in my situation, I will fare better than many at this website. For someone not to view a child as a blessing is a true tragedy. God loves all his children the same regardless of how they came about. He may even have great plans for this child. Hopefully through whatever this recovery is you are undergoing, you will find peace and be strong to endure what life has given you. I hope repliers are more kind towards others who need help in these forums. I can withstand it but for some, I do worry about all of the negativity and judgement handed out.<hr></blockquote>I couldn't agree with you more. The spouses that have been deceived are more bitter than they are in love and are more interested in revenge it seems. Keep the 2 people who love eachother apart, settle for a life with a person who is in love with someone else, all for the sake of being the "winner". I'm sorry but that is the general theme I find here. I also am the OW, my MM and I have a child together. He is a blessing to us both. We love each other very much but as with anyone in these circumstances, to be together would hurt his 2 OC, wife, family, as well as my husband and my family. So, I can tell you what we have done. After 6 years together, and I admit, mostly due to circumstances changing our ability to see eachother daily, we are trying very hard to let go of eachother in terms of being together. We decided we couldn't live with the pain we'd cause others and we did not want to destroy our childs life by divorcing our spouses and bring him into our lives at a time that would cause him to be unaccepted by our families. (his is extremly religious) We logically thought it through and decided that for the 3 children involved, it would be better if he remained my good friend who can still see and know our son but not play a parental role. It worked out best for everyone. I have sacraficed alot for our child and for my lover who I want to be happy. We keep telling eachother that someday, we will be happy again, apart from eachother. But it hurts more than I can tell you. My son has a fantasic father who loves and wants him. He is the best thing that ever happened to my H and myself. I think some of the spouses here do not understand is that just because they met him first doesn't make him theirs. He isn't a possession. Love is not about rules, unfortunately, as it would be alot simpler if it were. In my situation we did what we thought best for everyone else and put aside the fact that we are in love and wanted to have a life together. It wasn't about who met who first but about sacrafice for love larger than our own.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by hopin2heal61497:
Excellent post heavenly!!!:: bowing out::<hr></blockquote>Wow, you seem to be the one in a fantasyland. I have been the OW for 6 years and my mm has never said the things you say your husband told you and his ow. We struggled and tried to stop our relationship, we both have been with our spouses since highschool. We didn't experience the incredible intimacy as you claim and although sex isn't the driving force in an affair, believe me, if it were that good in your bed, he would never have left it to make love to his other love.
I think you are trying too hard to convince yourself of what marriage really is. I spent plenty of monotonous time with my lover, it wasn't all roses as you seem to think. We have seen all sides, good and bad of eachother, etc. We still are in love. He and I care for our spouses very much and because of children, we have decided not to pursue divorces. So you see, we remain in marriages, but not because our souls are doing anything with the spouse's soul. People change. People fall out of love. My lover and I struggled with our feelings, we weren't telling eachother what we thought the other wanted to hear, we didn't even want to admit our feelings for a long time. We didn't know how to muster up the desire to be with our spouses to keep the marriage alive. All things we talked to eachother about but don't be fooled to think your husband is going to tell you all.
I'm not trying to be hurtful, but your response more about trying to hurt someone and not about realty. Most deceived spouses can't believe this but many of us stay with in our marriages because of baggage issues (children, family,money, property, etc) not because our souls are united and we are so in love with spouse and sex is so good with them. Get in the real.

Catnip, DTDT, Heavenly,others,Well, it seems this thread has been highjacked. Therefore, nothing serious or useful will be discussed.Once again, as has so often in the past, we have the essential element of a thread that reminds me of the story of the guy that murders his parents and then throws himself on the mercy of the court because he is an orphan. The logic is about is rational.God Bless,JL

CMiranda, Do you honestly think you are sparing your spouses any pain here? Do you really think that you and your lover are being so unselfish? How magnanimus of you both to put others feelings ahead of your own.
By the way, I am the one who had the A and OC in my marriage. I am not a BW. Although I once had those same feelings about the OM in my situation that was fantasyland, make believe. Give me something real over that anyday. I think it would surprise you if you knew how your MM really felt about his wife.

Sorry JL, I posted before I saw your post or I wouldn't have wasted my time. Guess I'm too new here to realize a hi-jacking when I see It.

CMirandaIt confuses me that OW's come here all the time and proclaim how 'bitter' we Betrayed Spouses are as if any bitterenss we might feel is somehow more of a transgression than that of an adulterous woman who lacks the integrity to to care how her actions effect an innocent family.You can call our profound pain 'bitter' if you wish. You can call our sadness and our grief 'bitter' if you wish. You can mock us for wanting to 'win' in the beginning as if that is our only reason for wanting our marriage while discounting all the endless facets and intricacies of our marriage, not acknowledging that this is just a small component to the huge picture of all of it. Discount the history, the family, the years of struggle, the years of joy and accomplishment...you can dismiss it all away with glib sound bites of 'bitterness' and something so shallow as wanting to 'win' as if that is the entire reason instead of just an early desire to keep what we have.No one here has ever said that their marriage was and is nothing but great hot sex and intense depth and love all the time. Far from it. Married people know better than anyone that marriage is a journey with joys, sorrows, adjustments. Sometimes the couple is crazy in love with their spouse. Other times, they are mildly affectionate for a time. But it is all cyclical and if the couple hangs in there, the marriage cycles around once again to hot passion and eventually to a higher plane of understanding, compassion and growth.It is apparent that you do not know the women here, have not heard their stories, know their personalities, have had the honor of feeling their strength and seeing their beauty. OW's are notorious for coming here trying to stir things up and we have become adept at chasing them from our site with the help of savvy moderators who can spot trouble makers. None of us care here about OW's or their spawn, their heartache, their silly mewlings or points of view. None of us believe posters who come here lamenting how their MM is still in love with them or how noble they are because they have decided to step away, like you, to allow your MM to find happiness with his wretched wife. If there had been any nobility in the first place, none of us would be here.The OW is a pathetic example of low self worth run amuck. She is usually desperate for a husband and is willing to settle for left overs from someone else's marriage, garnering a smattering of false self worth for being able to lure the MM from his wife for a short time, only to end up alone while MM desperately works to restore his marriage and repair the damage.OW's pathetically come here all the time spouting how sorry they feel for the Betrayed Spouse and how bitter we all are when in reality it is the OW who needs the pity and displays bitterness at every opportunity with their disrespectful judgments. Simply by coming to Marriage Builders sends up huge flares that the OW is in severe pain trying to justify her existance by trying to start something here, otherwise if she were OK and right with the world, she wouldn't be coming here to tell us how bitter we are.We are bitter about somethings, and rightly so. But it is a temporary 'feeling' directly connected to the heartache we may be experiencing. It goes away in time and only flares up when we get an interloper here carrying on about their spawn and how it is somehow a 'blessing', a 'miracle' and somehow divine. Well, I grant you it is all that in YOUR eyes, but it isn't any of that in our eyes. Our children are blessings and miracles to us. None of you OW's care a lick about our 'blessings' or 'miracles'. In fact, none of you gave any of our blessings or miracles a second thought about their happiness, future or what this revelation would do to them. You didn't care. You simply just did not care. To me, that is far, far worse than anything any of the Betrayed have said or feel here.So, give it a rest and get off a board where you and your opinions do not matter and stay off Marriage Builders because we know you wouldn't be here if you had good intentions. You certainly are not here to enhance or build up your marriage or mine, so go to the forums where your opinions are in line with others like you. You have no business here and we have nothing to offer you as you have nothing to offer us.As for spouses being each others 'possessions', you couldn't be more wrong. In the marriage vows I spoke with my husband all those years ago, we promised to be there for each other, for richer, poorer, in sickness and health, forsaking all others and keeping only onto each other. We acknowledged we were ONE and part of the other from this day forward. Vows were broken, shattered in fact, but that did not change the fact that we belonged to each other and no one else, and would for all time, til death do us part. All the songs say 'you belong' to me, and 'you're mine' and when a couple are married, they do indeed see each other as belonging to the other. Every single perosn married on the face of this earth feel this way so why do you proclaim this is not true? What is wrong with being possessed by your heart's desire, the love of your life? Nothing. It is a good thing, a great thing, a blessed thing, designed and executed by God. And, I will side with God any day over some OW saying that my hsuband is not my possession or I amnot his. My husband loves to hear me call him "my husband" and introduce him as my husband. he says it makes him feel special and warm and wonderful to know someone loves him so much that I claim him as my own.It 'feels' good to be loved and cared for and cherished by someone you are in love with. It makes life sublime and worth living.Catnip =^^=

Sorry JL and WIB...posting at the same time...I bit, couldn't help it. Haven't posted much lately and my soap box was beckoning. It is too much fun sparing, but you are right. Sorry.Your analogy is priceless, JL. Hilarious. I love it.Catnip =^^=

That's ok Catnip, I'm actually starting to enjoy reading your posts(when we're on the same side that is [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] )Hope you had a great weekend. Start another thread to tell us about it.

WIB,No need to apologize. Your response was quite good. But, watch this thing go down the drain. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] It is amazing how the human brain works though.
I learn something new everyday I read here.Sadly, if the original poster was asking for help, ideas, or simply suggestions about her marriage, or addressing this mess most would do their best to help. It is usually just a post with an agenda to convince people that marriages, children are secondary to their "true love".Sorry, I am sounding sarcastic. I'll shut up.Glad to see you posting.God Bless,JL

Hey Catnip,If you and WIB want to let loose be my guest. You surely don't need my permission. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] I do know what you mean, I have a hard time remaining silent from time to time myself. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] As you both well know. Must go.God Bless,JL

You are in a very tough situation and I hope it works out for you and the baby. If he doesn't give himself 100% and divorce his wife, then you should seriously reconsider staying with your husband and try to work it out if that is possible at this point. It sounds like the mm is confused (big surprise) regarding what he should do. Ask yourself how it will impact the baby if you let him acknowledge the baby as his but stay with his wife? Is he the best choice for being a father to this child?
Your baby is a gift and a miracle. Do not let any of these bitter women who are carrying alot of anger and jealously let you feel any different.
I'm sure your relationship with your mm is meaningful and real. Some of these people are hurting and can't accept that affairs are about love and need. Not obligation, and that hurts. We all hurt when we are in an affair or a victim of one. Imagine if you were in their situation, the other foot so to speak. They have to tell themselves (such as heavenlybody) that their husbands are in love with them, the sex was great, and what you have with him is meaningless. Of course, that is in most cases, far from reality! That is how they cope unfortunately. Affairs last for alot of reasons, and a great marriage/sex/relationship at home is surely not one of them. Anyway, Your focus should be on what is best for the baby now, not getting the man. Do what is best for the baby, look to the future and don't try to manipulate the present. A little person is depending on you and deserves your undivided loyalty.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by CMiranda:
...They have to tell themselves (such as heavenlybody) that their husbands are in love with them, the sex was great, and what you have with him is meaningless. Of course, that is in most cases, far from reality! That is how they cope unfortunately. <hr></blockquote>OH PLEASE!!! Give me a break... I'm sure what you meant to say is that "BS's choose to believe their wayward spouses when their WS tells them that they love their BS and what they had with the OP is meaningless!" DUH! Otherwise, they would LEAVE and go BE with the OP, since it is so meaningful. That is NOT the reality tho! The reality is that when an OC is conceived, WS's are forced to take a look at their TRUE priorities, which usually is NOT the OP. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by CMiranda:
 Affairs last for alot of reasons, and a great marriage/sex/relationship at home is surely not one of them. <hr></blockquote>Not true. I can tell you have not been reading many of the betrayed spouse's versions of what state their marriages were when affairs were carrying on. Many times, the marriage was going along just fine. Don't forget that wayward spouses tend to LIE... Cheating goes hand in hand with lying BTW, in case you didn't know that... <blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by CMiranda:
...Anyway, Your focus should be on what is best for the baby now, not getting the man. Do what is best for the baby, look to the future and don't try to manipulate the present. A little person is depending on you and deserves your undivided loyalty.<hr></blockquote>I couldn't agree with you more on this one. Time to move on and focus on your own life. Obviously MM is focusing on HIS priorities and his own life...Just Learning, you are right! HIJACKED! And where in the heck is the original poster??? Makes you wonder if this thread is even for real. Oh well, maybe some lurker can glean something from everything that was said here.Raw emotions do not equate to bitterness in my book. People being passionate about saving their marriages doesn't mean jealousy and anger. Not at all. Marriage building is work. I have noticed that MORE marriages recovering from OCs are stronger than the ones without OCs. Many WS's without OC's in the picture seem to linger in withdrawal states where WS's with OC's refocus on their love for their spouses IMMEDIATELY! Just like the MM described in this original poster's situation. She was dumped and didn't want to accept it. That's how I read it. I could be wrong, but the original poster has seemingly abandoned her thread. *sigh* Oh well... I wish she would come back and provide some feedback for us so it won't feel like such a waste of our good time.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by BINthereDUNthat:
I couldn't agree with you more on this one. Time to move on and focus on your own life. Obviously MM is focusing on HIS priorities and his own life...It doesn't sound like mm is focusing on leaving her or their child. It seems that he is confused. My point to her is that she needs to focus on the baby and not him. I think at this point his priority is trying to get his life put together again and he's trying to figure out how to do that. In many cases, he's worried about how change will affect him, will he have to move out and pay mortgage, child support, alimony, etc. What will people think in their social circle/family. That is what I am saying so she needs to carry on and whatever happens between the adults IS secondary as the children come first. I believe ALL children. Not just children of the marriage. Children of the love affair as well. Just Learning, you are right! HIJACKED! And where in the heck is the original poster??? Makes you wonder if this thread is even for real. Oh well, maybe some lurker can glean something from everything that was said here.Raw emotions do not equate to bitterness in my book. People being passionate about saving their marriages doesn't mean jealousy and anger. Not at all. Marriage building is work. I have noticed that MORE marriages recovering from OCs are stronger than the ones without OCs. Many WS's without OC's in the picture seem to linger in withdrawal states where WS's with OC's refocus on their love for their spouses IMMEDIATELY! Just like the MM described in this original poster's situation. She was dumped and didn't want to accept it. That's how I read it. I could be wrong, but the original poster has seemingly abandoned her thread. *sigh* Oh well... I wish she would come back and provide some feedback for us so it won't feel like such a waste of our good time.<hr></blockquote>I agree that relationships are work! Any kind requires work. I don't know that I see the same things you do relative to OC and WS, etc. My reasoning is that the WS in many cases is in love with OW/M and while loves the spouse, is not "in love" and there is a difference. It is not as simple as changing feelings like you suggest. I have been working on it for a long time and it is just not that simple. If it were, we'd all get out of painful relationships and not fall into despair and hopelessness.
You are right, raw emotion doesn't but the fact that I hear people all over this site lash out and seem to find some happiness at the sorrow and despair of others tells me that there is a alot of jealously here. I'm not saying i don't understand it's origin, but lets be honest, all of us, no matter where we are in this sad little circle want to believe that our relationship with the person in question was the real deal, the most important to him/her. The fact is simple that the lover intruded on the marriage, not the other way around. In some cases, certainly not all, perhaps the spouse is better off out of the marriage.

By the way, where is the person who posted the original message you want to know! Well, after reading all of your ridiculous responses I would think that she has decided you people have nothing valid to offer her!

I apologize for my lack of posting ability here, I wanted to respond to your quote but I don't see it. Anyway, it is important to note that I think it depends on who you ask about the state of the marriage. If the WS were asked by someone "safe" who he or she can be honest with, I can almost guarantee that "things are going along just fine" would not be the their answer. Many spouses look back at a period where they were being deceived and see signs that escaped them at the time. Others, that isn't the case. It depends. But the person who is living the double life generally isn't happy in the marriage and finds (by accident in many cases) someone who makes them feel happy. I do agree, lying is definetely required to keep the 2 lives going. From what I know and read, the affair is a solution to a problem. Most aren't just flings for fun because the marriage is so fullfilling. Lets be real here.

CMiranda, I was the WS. I lived the double life. The OP is an escape from reality and nothing more. Ask me now if tha A was a huge mistake. Ask me now who is and really had always been the one I truly loved. I ended the A. I came back to earth. WSs usually do. And I can say with complete and total conviction that what I had with the OP, although it felt wonderful at the time, can never compare to what I have with my H.
The A was the single biggest MISTAKE I have ever made, that's all it is, period!

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by CMiranda:
By the way, where is the person who posted the original message you want to know! Well, after reading all of your ridiculous responses I would think that she has decided you people have nothing valid to offer her!<hr></blockquote>Oh well, that's your defensive feelings... Why don't you just calm down and let her be the judge of that...

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by want it back:
CMiranda, I was the WS. I lived the double life. The OP is an escape from reality and nothing more. Ask me now if tha A was a huge mistake. Ask me now who is and really had always been the one I truly loved. I ended the A. I came back to earth. WSs usually do. And I can say with complete and total conviction that what I had with the OP, although it felt wonderful at the time, can never compare to what I have with my H.
The A was the single biggest MISTAKE I have ever made, that's all it is, period!<hr></blockquote>
I speak from both sides as well. I was the WS and the OW and I don't agree with you. I've made alot of mistakes in my life, my A wasn't necessarily one of them. It was a learning experience and I am a new and better person because of the relationship and friendship I had with my OM. I'm sorry if that isn't how you feel about your experience.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by BINthereDUNthat:
Oh well, that's your defensive feelings... Why don't you just calm down and let her be the judge of that...<hr></blockquote>
Not defensive but put off by the reaction of people who want to know where she is. What does everyone expect, she came here for help in sorting out her life and she was attacked basically. Everyone here deserves to be treated with dignity and respect. We are all here for our own reasons but it's obvious that we all are in search of advice and perspective. I'm defending everyone's rights, not just hers. There is alot of insulting, condesending attitudes here so don't be surprised if a person decides that they don't need it. That is my point.

<blockquote>quote:<hr> I speak from both sides as well. I was the WS and the OW and I don't agree with you. I've made alot of mistakes in my life, my A wasn't necessarily one of them. It was a learning experience and I am a new and better person because of the relationship and friendship I had with my OM. I'm sorry if that isn't how you feel about your experience.<hr></blockquote>I'm sure this must make your H very happy to know this. Oh Yeah... that's right, I forgot. You don't tell your H the truth do you? New and better person??? I think not.

I just thought that I would pop in and say hello. Take a peek and see how all my favorite members are? [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] It is essential that we "play nice" here, so please, no one cross the line.In advance thank you for your cooperation,

[QUOTE]Originally posted by CMiranda:
[qb]
1. Not defensive but put off by the reaction of people who want to know where she is.Response: Only ONE person stated that they wondered where she was.2. What does everyone expect, she came here for help in sorting out her life and she was attacked basically. Response: Why do you construe anyone's advice as an "attack" simply because someone disagreed with her...and you? You will never learn anything if you see honest advice as an "attack".3. Everyone here deserves to be treated with dignity and respect. Response: Especially if they deserve it and show respect towards the people they have differences of opinion with and not come off as self righteous and judgmental. This is MARRIAGE BUILDERS and we adhere to the Harley principles, the Rules of Honesty, Protection and the Policy of Joint Agreement between spouses. If you have no respect for our site, our marriages and come here without apology for the lives you have harmed, then you do not belong on this site.4. We are all here for our own reasons but it's obvious that we all are in search of advice and perspective.Response: Really? Then why do you get so mad when someone tells you something you don't like? It sounds like you are looking more for absolution. 5. I'm defending everyone's rights, not just hers.Response: No, you're not. What I see is a lot of rationalizations and disrespectful judgments.6. There is alot of insulting, condesending attitudes here Response: You're right. And the lion's share of them have come from you. I admit you've got my back up and I am always unhappy when a thread turns counterproductive, but when an OW comes to MARRIAGE BUILDERS, I am naturally suspicious of her motives. I mean, what's her point? To convince us what? And why on earth would she think any of us would really care what she thinks?Any OW coming here that has no heart, no compassion and shows to be completely unapologetic for the pain she has caused innocent families is lower than sand worms in my book and are summarily dismissed from having any credibility. We have many OW's here that we love and are definitely part of our group here. But, they acknowledge the damage created by the destructive actions and see clearly, with their minds and hearts wide open, how to change their situations and their lives and have regret for harming others. They don't have to agree with us at all on all issues, but they have to deliver their point of view with respect and compassion and understanding and an open mind.[ March 29, 2002: Message edited by: catnip ]

cMiranda:Oh, for crying out loud!!!! End the F***ing lies, for Rice Cake!!!You sound like you just plan to live a miserable life, your kids too, because you've gotten yourself so deep into this deception thing and "built" a psuedofamily in the process, that you just can't dig out and have to rationalize your existence to support the fantasy. Get it out in the open, put it all out on the table for everybody involved to see. Get the pain and the crying over with and get on with your lives with HONESTY, and TRUST, and INTEGRITY to guide you and yours through your lives from now on! Sorry to come across as such a [censored] here, but this kind of s*** really tweaks my gain knob, because it ruins the lives of so many otherwise thoughtful, trustworthy, and beautiful people, and it does so all too often!!!

Xaralel: (hope I got that right, it's on the previous page!)Sorry about the apparent anger in my previous post. I don't mean to be so angry, just that I feel strongly that, if this other life that cmiranda is living is such a good thing, she ought to bring it all out in the open and let everyone know just who is in their extended family. Deception over generations can't be good for them.As to the original poster, I saw her posting to other threads, and I disagree with cmiranda about how she has been "treated" on this forum. I think that, though some posts may have sounded harsh to her and particularly to cmiranda, all who responded did so with firm kindness. They all recognize the delicate position the original poster is in, and certainly wish her well in her own recovery from her situation and in raising her child. That she continues to post to this forum shows that she, at least, is interested in being constructive with people in her own life. Hope cmiranda can see the wisdom of being honest with her "extended family" and start on her own road to a better future with them.That's all. I'll get out of this icky thread now, once and for all. Love to all.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by CMiranda:
My reasoning is that the WS in many cases is in love with OW/M and while loves the spouse, is not "in love" and there is a difference. It is not as simple as changing feelings like you suggest. I have been working on it for a long time and it is just not that simple. If it were, we'd all get out of painful relationships and not fall into despair and hopelessness. <hr></blockquote>Your mind tells your heart who to love. It really IS pretty simple.

I have been lurking here and am amazed at where this has gone. However I couldn't resist puttin in my 2cents for what they are worth.When you mention "being in love" and "loving" a person, my sensibilities went NUTS.
My H told me he loved me, but he was in love with OW. That was 9 years ago. Guess what, he is Loves me now, and the OW is an embarassment he wishes he could go back and make different choices than the ones he made concerning her.When will
people learn that being " in love" is like a drug addiction. The high only lasts for a short while, then one must come down. A person could spent all their lives looking for that high generated by being "in love". If you truly love someone you love them by choice. Love is an action word. You love them throught thick and thin because of himself/herself as well as in spite of himself/herself. You love that person when they are throwing up in the bathroom and you love them while in the throes of lovemaking.
If one does not realise that then that person needs to grow up and get a life, perferably the one her created with the orinal lover he had and created a marriage (and maybe children with).Well just my thoughts.
Texasgirl

The angst of the OW. Oh, it must be difficult to discover what some OW have about being the OW. Her married lover, when confronted with the responsibilities from the OW that he shares with his W but escaped with an OW, decides to focus on the responsibilities at home with the W. How horrible that he may even sever all contact with OW to focus on the W he chose as his life partner. The W he entered into a relationship with to share the burdens and joys of life with, not the OW he chose to play with as a distraction. My heart is breaking for these OW.

Texas GirlI've always had a problem with the romaticized notion of being "in love" as opposed to loving someone through thick and thin. While I have been the lucky recipient of both in my marriage, I always knew the "in love" stuff was really nothing more than a crush. It was hot, it was fun, it was intense and made me feel wonderful. But it was just a preamble to real life and real love.Even though "in love" feelings surrender to "love", the "in love" stuff still happens quite often in all our marraiges from time to time. To have it be all the time would be exhausting. It is a cyclical thing, just one of the peaks and valleys of love and commitment. The 'love' thing is more mature and day to day, giving and receiving, being there for each other when the chips are down and the less glamorous aspects of life are hurled at you. It's there. It's always there for each person in the couple to draw from, for solace, companionship, someone to depend on and trust.Real love is a choice to commit yourself to another human being...someone you have chosen to spend the rest of your life with. That's why we make these vows to include sickness as opposed to health, times of poverty as well as the joys of plenty, promising to forsake all others for as long as you both shall live. It is ordained by God for us to build a stronger and better society filled with families, strong and healthy to keep the momentum going.I fear so much for our societal future. I see the lowering of standards and I worry for my kids. I worry for the world of children, especially OC's, that see their parents' self absorption and lack of decorum and dignity, for the beat goes on. I mourn the loss of innocence and commitment...I am devastated by the last two generations of men-children who behave like cruel and uncompromising adolescents.I am in a state. I am going for a long walk. Later.Catnip =^^=

Catnip, you are 100% right about the cycles of love. I learned about it in my H.S. Psychology class. Yes, I remember that far back. It talked of the "ebbs and flows" of romantic love in every normal relationship. I believe that there is actually a name for it but that I don't remember. I'm sure it can be found an any H.S Psych book.

tobemommy, I am new to this board, but have found it very interesting, I am personally trying to figure out what to do with my marriage, and how to make my marriage work or figure out if it can work. I do understand your confusion and pain however, if you know for sure the wife is posting or visiting this site, I think it is not respecting the decision they made to work it out, because she will obviously recognize your post and this will upset the household. I do think everyone needs understanding and help, and wish you the best with your child and Hope things work out for you.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by BINthereDUNthat:
Your mind tells your heart who to love. It really IS pretty simple.<hr></blockquote>That is a joke! If it were that simple, then we'd all be living simple lives and this site would not exist. Sorry but that is my opinion.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Willing_To_Work:
The angst of the OW. Oh, it must be difficult to discover what some OW have about being the OW. Her married lover, when confronted with the responsibilities from the OW that he shares with his W but escaped with an OW, decides to focus on the responsibilities at home with the W. How horrible that he may even sever all contact with OW to focus on the W he chose as his life partner. The W he entered into a relationship with to share the burdens and joys of life with, not the OW he chose to play with as a distraction. My heart is breaking for these OW.<hr></blockquote>I don't think you are in reality. I was both the ws and ow. My lover and I didn't get involved to have someone to "play with as a distraction"! Of course all relationships are unique, but for us, we fought our feelings for a very, very long time. We made a choice to give in and our only regret was that we had met before we chose the wrong life partners. Don't glamorize marriage alone, the fact is all relationships are unique and people are not so alike that you can generalize as you have.
I think rather than mock a group of people, you need to learn empathy for all people. I feel badly for everyone involved in the sad circle here. I can see all the sides not just my own self serving one.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by want it back:
Catnip, you are 100% right about the cycles of love. I learned about it in my H.S. Psychology class. Yes, I remember that far back. It talked of the "ebbs and flows" of romantic love in every normal relationship. I believe that there is actually a name for it but that I don't remember. I'm sure it can be found an any H.S Psych book.<hr></blockquote>The fact is that long term A's move beyond romatic love. The people here who honestly believe that A's only encompass romantic love either don't understand the nature of relationships or don't understand the vast and numerous drivers behind affairs. My 6 year A enabled me to learn about and experience every aspect of my lover. I know him just as well as I knew my H. And likewise. It was very good and at times not too good, just as ANY long term relationship is. The generalization here is naive.

CmirandaTo come here and tell us we are "naive" or proclaim an opinion as "What a joke" are completely disrespectful judgments.If you want everyone to to agree with you and not challenge or advise you with your assessments, go to gloryb where like minded people share your views.Don't be such a snot.Catnip =^^=

cMiranda:I had promised not to get lured back into this thread, but...Just tell the truth, to all involved. If your polygamist lifestyle is all that virtuous, it won't bother your family members who've been lied to (through omission) all these years to finally be told the truth. If you respect them, you'll do this. End of post.

It appears that CMirandas lover has decided to return to his W and work on his marriage so I fail to see how this relationship could possibly have been as wonderful as described. At least not in his mind. It's sad that CM thinks the OM is doing it just to spare the feelings of the BSs. That may be what he wants CM to think, but it is sad that she actually believes him. It will take much longer for her to get her own marriage back on track while she still believes in the fairytale.

[QUYour baby is a gift and a miracle. Do not let any of these bitter women who are carrying alot of anger and jealously let you feel any different.
I'm sure your relationship with your mm is meaningful and real. Some of these people are hurting and can't accept that affairs are about love and need. Not obligation, and that hurts. We all hurt when we are in an affair or a victim of one. Imagine if you were in their situation, the other foot so to speak. They have to tell themselves (such as heavenlybody) that their husbands are in love with them, the sex was great, and what you have with him is meaningless. Of course, that is in most cases, far from reality! That is how they cope unfortunately.OTE] [/QUOTE]
cmiranda,
I have an ow who claims to be pregnant, and yes her baby is a blessing and a miracle for her, but not for me and certainly not for my SO, if it were he would be showing an interest in her and her situation. It seems like you are living in some twisted land where the ow are the ones the man really loves and wives are just pathetic interferences. Do you really believe that? Affairs are not about love or obligation, they are in fact about need, something the WS wasn't getting and needed but didn't know the proper way to go about getting it. It may in fact be meaningful to the OW and sometimes to the MM, but that is not normally the case. I don't doubt that people marry the wrong person sometimes, but if you involve yourself into someone's relationship with another person whether they are married or not then you are setting yourself up for failure not a meaningful relationship. Meaningful relationships are not secret, they are proud, obvious, and honest. That's what OW fail to realize.I, for one don't have to tell myself that my SO loves me, or try to convince myself that he wants me and I am not an obligation, he tells me everyday, we are not married and he still chose to stay with me, and the sex is great! So what does that say for your theory, here is his chance to go if he wants there are no strings here. Now you explain to my OW why he is here with me when their relationship is so meaningful and there is soooo much love.Baloney!!Bridgette

Amen BridgetteDoc and I arent married either, infact we're in two different states right now due to a job transfer. I'm joining him when school is out. Point is he had the perfect chance to walk. There was no begging or pleading on my part for him not to. He chose me! Even tho this woman is carrying a much wanted biological child by him.Or should I say supposed child..as there is no proof... And if push comes to shove, from this woman..he'll still choose me.baloney....LOL...I havent heard that in yearspeace! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by some1s_mom:
[QUYour baby is a gift and a miracle. Do not let any of these bitter women who are carrying alot of anger and jealously let you feel any different.
I'm sure your relationship with your mm is meaningful and real. Some of these people are hurting and can't accept that affairs are about love and need. Not obligation, and that hurts. We all hurt when we are in an affair or a victim of one. Imagine if you were in their situation, the other foot so to speak. They have to tell themselves (such as heavenlybody) that their husbands are in love with them, the sex was great, and what you have with him is meaningless. Of course, that is in most cases, far from reality! That is how they cope unfortunately.OTE] <hr></blockquote>
cmiranda,
I have an ow who claims to be pregnant, and yes her baby is a blessing and a miracle for her, but not for me and certainly not for my SO, if it were he would be showing an interest in her and her situation. It seems like you are living in some twisted land where the ow are the ones the man really loves and wives are just pathetic interferences. Do you really believe that? Affairs are not about love or obligation, they are in fact about need, something the WS wasn't getting and needed but didn't know the proper way to go about getting it. It may in fact be meaningful to the OW and sometimes to the MM, but that is not normally the case. I don't doubt that people marry the wrong person sometimes, but if you involve yourself into someone's relationship with another person whether they are married or not then you are setting yourself up for failure not a meaningful relationship. Meaningful relationships are not secret, they are proud, obvious, and honest. That's what OW fail to realize.I, for one don't have to tell myself that my SO loves me, or try to convince myself that he wants me and I am not an obligation, he tells me everyday, we are not married and he still chose to stay with me, and the sex is great! So what does that say for your theory, here is his chance to go if he wants there are no strings here. Now you explain to my OW why he is here with me when their relationship is so meaningful and there is soooo much love.Baloney!!Bridgette[/QUOTE]
Your story is interesting. My first reaction is if your relationship is so wonderful what is your un-obligated SM doing having a relationship with someone else? Is he afraid of his responsibilities to child, is that what keeps him with you?
I have been on both sides here. The OW and the WS. I know why I got involved with MM while I had H and why I stayed in it for 6+ years. Was it the sex? Well, it was incredible, but no. Was it the frustration that the relationship caused both of us in having to come to grips with it's reality? well, no. Was it the great fun we had having to keep it a secret from most people we know? no again. I could go on and on but to keep this short, it was because we were in love with eachother. We couldn't /wouldn't get out because we loved eachother very much. I think relationships are unique and what applies to some doesn't to others. In keeping with that, there is little place for such sweeping generalizations about the whys and what for's. Why do some WS get into A's and if couples in A's are in love, etc all really depends on the people. Why they stay or leave their relationships/marriages also depend on their situations. Maybe in your case their relationship wasn't meaningful, or maybe it was. He could be with you for the same reason I'm with my H and my ex-mm is with his W.

CM, You seem to be avoiding the question that has been asked of you by more than one person. What are you doing on a site called MARRIAGE BUILDERS? Your M and your H obviously mean very little to you. You are only in your M because you feel "obligated". And if by some small miracle you were truly here to rebuild your marriage then I suggest you read all the concepts and principals on this site before you continue to post. If you have read them already then I suggest you go back and read them again. If you are not interested in rebuilding your marriage then you should go elsewhere to whine about the great love that you can not have because your H and kids are standing in your way.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by want it back:
It appears that CMirandas lover has decided to return to his W and work on his marriage so I fail to see how this relationship could possibly have been as wonderful as described. At least not in his mind. It's sad that CM thinks the OM is doing it just to spare the feelings of the BSs. That may be what he wants CM to think, but it is sad that she actually believes him. It will take much longer for her to get her own marriage back on track while she still believes in the fairytale.<hr></blockquote>Actually, it wasn't him, it was me who decided that I had to change my life. Yes, I've tried it before and so has he but we always ended up back together. Why? Because we didn't try hard enough. This time, He and I BOTH came to agree that it was not the spouses as much as the children who needed us to be stronger and try harder to repair our marriages. As hard as it is for you to understand this, love can be and was(is) the what kept us in our very long affair. It is why we struggle to get out, not because of a fairytale. I am a grown woman and I know what Love is and what it isn't. And by the way, you are presumtious to think that he and I lie to eachother to keep in the relationship. We have told the hard truth to eachother and yet we remain in love. I'm working on getting past the love and back to my family. Give me a break and don't presume to know what is in mine or my lovers mind or heart.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by want it back:
CM, You seem to be avoiding the question that has been asked of you by more than one person. What are you doing on a site called MARRIAGE BUILDERS? Your M and your H obviously mean very little to you. You are only in your M because you feel "obligated". And if by some small miracle you were truly here to rebuild your marriage then I suggest you read all the concepts and principals on this site before you continue to post. If you have read them already then I suggest you go back and read them again. If you are not interested in rebuilding your marriage then you should go elsewhere to whine about the great love that you can not have because your H and kids are standing in your way.<hr></blockquote>Fact- Obligation sends many a WS home. Sorry but it's true.
Fact - I did read the principals. I don't agree with alot of the rude and thoughtless comments made here by the scorned. As such, I will post my responses and opinions as I wish.
Fact - I am not whining, just as you aren't. Although to ears that don't want to hear the other side of it, I soppose that is how you interpret. Some of sweeping statements here are incredible. My H does mean alot to me, that is why I'm working on getting back to him. But don't tell me that I didn't love my om or that he didn't love me and it was some crazy dream. Or others claim to know why he and I are where we are today. Fact is YOU Do Not know, only I do. Which is fine except I have to read the ridiculous statements about what is really going on in mine or OM life. You have no idea so stop acting as if you do.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by BINthereDUNthat:
Your mind tells your heart who to love. It really IS pretty simple.<hr></blockquote>I read your comment and thought it was too simplistic. But I kept thinking about it. Tell me more about why you say this. How does this work?

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by CMiranda:
[QB]1. He and I BOTH came to agree that it was not the spouses as much as the children who needed us to be stronger and try harder to repair our marriages.
2. As hard as it is for you to understand this, love can be and was(is) the what kept us in our very long affair. QB]<hr></blockquote>1. Oh, those bothersome, uninteresting and totally boring spouses! Why do they not know their places?2. That illusion and those involuntary muscle spasms that makes us feel so, so exciting especially when we know we are being bad, bad, bad...what a thrill. Oooooooooh! The intensity! The heat! The passion! My God! I am so alive when I am naughty! And to feel for just a moment, that it is "I" that is chosen over the boring spouse for just a while makes me feel oh so victorious and special. For two or three minutes, I feel desired above the bothersome, uninteresting spouse!MeowCatnip =^^=

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by catnip:
CmirandaTo come here and tell us we are "naive" or proclaim an opinion as "What a joke" are completely disrespectful judgments.If you want everyone to to agree with you and not challenge or advise you with your assessments, go to gloryb where like minded people share your views.I apologize for coming off as a snot. Some of what is said here really torques me up. I have been on both sides of this maybe that is why I'm so sensitive. It makes me crazy when the BS (I think I got that right, the w or h of WS) focus on the op and not the marriage. The A is about the op and the ws of course but the fact that it happened I think is about the ws and the bs and their relationship. My marriage isn't perfect and if I told my H, he would sound like everyone here. I'm not saying you are all wrong, you definetely aren't and I want to hear your side of it. But also, you all are much too focused on the relationship (I realize jealously and hurt are driving this) between ws and op. Just as op is way too focused on bs. It makes no sense to generalize and say things like ws never loved her/him, A was meaningless, etc. That is really so off the mark. Don't be such a snot.Catnip =^^=<hr></blockquote>

CM: Well, here I go again! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] "Actually, it wasn't him, it was me who decided that I had to change my life. Yes, I've tried it before and so has he but we always ended up back together. Why? Because we didn't try hard enough."I guess I can understand what you're talking about here, because my WW did something like this herself with her OM - they mutually tried to break of A early on, remained "friends" for several years, then had another PA in the last 1.5 years. Since he's in another state, the frequency was about 3times/yr that they got together, though they emailed each other quite a bit over the last 1.5 yrs. If I hadn't found out about the A in January, they would have "tried the friendship" thing again. W still thinks it's possible, but I won't allow it, period. Won't demand she break contact either, that's her decision, but I've made it clear where I stand for the long term."This time, He and I BOTH came to agree that it was not the spouses as much as the children who needed us to be stronger and try harder to repair our marriages."To me this doesn't sound like you're being sincere to yourselves. It should be possible to divorce and still be good parents for your kids. If you don't love your spouses, you'll wind up miserable. "As hard as it is for you to understand this, love can be and was(is) the what kept us in our very long affair."I don't think most people on this forum have any trouble understanding this at all. But you need to recognize that you are "too close to the problem" to put it into the proper perspective. It IS/WAS a fantasy and a life of lies, because you weren't being completely honest with your families."I am a grown woman and I know what Love is and what it isn't."Heck, I'm a grown man and I won't pretend that I can answer the question "what is love?" all that well."And by the way, you are presumtious to think that he and I lie to eachother to keep in the relationship. We have told the hard truth to eachother and yet we remain in love. I'm working on getting past the love and back to my family. Give me a break and don't presume to know what is in mine or my lovers mind or heart. "Try being HONEST with your families! Why is it okay to not "lie to each other" and yet live a 6-yr lie with your families??? This mystifies me most of all.Having said all that, and in spite of many of the reactions to your posts recently, I think you have a good chance at truly rebuilding your M, if you want to. But you should tell your spouse everything and break off contact with your OM. Notice I'm not suggesting you help OM do anything - how he works on his M (or not) is really not your business, nor is your life any of his business. Relationships are complicated things. Multiple intimate relationships are ridiculous to try to have and maintain, particularly if you have to keep a secret second life to have them. Be honest, your family will be hurt deeply by what's happened, but will ultimately respect you for it.

All:By the way, what ever happened to tobemommy? Seems her problem got hopelessly buried down in the noise when this thread got hijacked.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by catnip:
1. Oh, those bothersome, uninteresting and totally boring spouses! Why do they not know their places?
I don't understand this one.2. That illusion and those involuntary muscle spasms that makes us feel so, so exciting especially when we know we are being bad, bad, bad...what a thrill. Oooooooooh! The intensity! The heat! The passion! My God! I am so alive when I am naughty! And to feel for just a moment, that it is "I" that is chosen over the boring spouse for just a while makes me feel oh so victorious and special. For two or three minutes, I feel desired above the bothersome, uninteresting spouse!So the fact that we cut the incredible sex out of our relationship for 10 months would negate your theory here catnip.
BowWow.MeowCatnip =^^=<hr></blockquote>

CM, Are you or are you not going to come clean to your H? If your answer is no then you are not serious about rebuilding your marriage. Yes, fine, I get it. You are in love with the OM and he with you (fog), but I would love to see how your H would react to this news. I think you will have a whole new perspective on everything once it is out in the open and becomes "real". Until you face this together with your H your marriage will always be a great big lie.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by 2long:
CM: Well, here I go again! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] "Actually, it wasn't him, it was me who decided that I had to change my life. Yes, I've tried it before and so has he but we always ended up back together. Why? Because we didn't try hard enough."I guess I can understand what you're talking about here, because my WW did something like this herself with her OM - they mutually tried to break of A early on, remained "friends" for several years, then had another PA in the last 1.5 years. Since he's in another state, the frequency was about 3times/yr that they got together, though they emailed each other quite a bit over the last 1.5 yrs. If I hadn't found out about the A in January, they would have "tried the friendship" thing again. W still thinks it's possible, but I won't allow it, period. Won't demand she break contact either, that's her decision, but I've made it clear where I stand for the long term."This time, He and I BOTH came to agree that it was not the spouses as much as the children who needed us to be stronger and try harder to repair our marriages."To me this doesn't sound like you're being sincere to yourselves. It should be possible to divorce and still be good parents for your kids. If you don't love your spouses, you'll wind up miserable. 
"As hard as it is for you to understand this, love can be and was(is) the what kept us in our very long affair."I don't think most people on this forum have any trouble understanding this at all. But you need to recognize that you are "too close to the problem" to put it into the proper perspective. It IS/WAS a fantasy and a life of lies, because you weren't being completely honest with your families.
I know you are right about the lies and living a double life. That is what keeps me going on my trek back. "I am a grown woman and I know what Love is and what it isn't."
Heck, I'm a grown man and I won't pretend that I can answer the question "what is love?" all that well.
I said that because everyone here keeps saying that the om/ow couldn't possibly have loved eachother. (see catnips response to me where all she suggests is that A's are about sex) Until BS realize that the E/PA isn't not about sex you can never really understand it at all."And by the way, you are presumtious to think that he and I lie to eachother to keep in the relationship. We have told the hard truth to eachother and yet we remain in love. I'm working on getting past the love and back to my family. Give me a break and don't presume to know what is in mine or my lovers mind or heart. "Try being HONEST with your families! Why is it okay to not "lie to each other" and yet live a 6-yr lie with your families??? This mystifies me most of all.
Somehow in my A, he was the only person I felt I could be the real me with. We told eachother the things we could not share with anyone else. You are right, it doesn't justify lying to our famlies. I don't think I could face telling the truth. I want to put it behind me. If I tell my H he will hate me and never forgive me. Why do I want to do this to a relationship I want to repair? Did it help you to know?Having said all that, and in spite of many of the reactions to your posts recently, I think you have a good chance at truly rebuilding your M, if you want to. But you should tell your spouse everything and break off contact with your OM. Notice I'm not suggesting you help OM do anything - how he works on his M (or not) is really not your business, nor is your life any of his business.
Thank you for some words of encouragement. They are the only ones I have gotten so far. When I first came to this site I read some posts and I left for a quite some time because I was afraid to be yelled at and criticized.
I do notice that you don't mention helping om. I can understand that although it does seem severe to just throw him aside like yesterdays newspaper. Relationships are complicated things. Multiple intimate relationships are ridiculous to try to have and maintain, particularly if you have to keep a secret second life to have them. Yes, that is why as a WS I was so happy and yet so miserable that I thought death would be a relief at times. Thankfully I didn't have that much of a desire to be dead.Be honest, your family will be hurt deeply by what's happened, but will ultimately respect you for it.<hr></blockquote>
I'm afraid to do this part. I'm not ready yet. Are you glad to know?

CM, If you are not ready to tell the truth yet then you are not ready to save your marriage.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by want it back:
CM, Are you or are you not going to come clean to your H? If your answer is no then you are not serious about rebuilding your marriage. Yes, fine, I get it. You are in love with the OM and he with you (fog), but I would love to see how your H would react to this news. I think you will have a whole new perspective on everything once it is out in the open and becomes "real". Until you face this together with your H your marriage will always be a great big lie.<hr></blockquote>
I never even considered it until came here and Dr. H explained why we are soppose to. But I don't know yet if I will. I want the new perspective you talk about but then I think about the hate he will have for me and that is just about enough to stop me. I am pretty sure he won't leave me (I'm not being arrogant) but he will stay and make life unhappier.
If I do tell then wouldn't it be best to be out of mourning for om first?

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by want it back:
CM, If you are not ready to tell the truth yet then you are not ready to save your marriage.<hr></blockquote>I don't think this is right. Isn't recovery a step at a time? To jump into this by ending love affair, feeling desperation and sad over loss of important relationship (over 6 years with om, feels like I would imagine a death or divorce would feel like) and then create total havoc by telling H? It seems that I would have to be totally irrational to tell him at this stage. I can barely help myself through this right now.

I dont think anyone here is "glad " to know of anyone's pain us having all been there. and we've all been afraid at one point or another. and we all struggle with what is the right thing to do.
It just always nice to know that you aren't alone in whatever it is your going thru.{{ hugs}} to all of the faceless people with the courage to offer insight and support

CM: "Thank you for some words of encouragement. They are the only ones I have gotten so far. When I first came to this site I read some posts and I left for a quite some time because I was afraid to be yelled at and criticized."You're welcome. You won't be the first person to be afraid of the responses from this forum. Hang in there, people really do want to help (because they really do want to BE helped, themselves). "I do notice that you don't mention helping om. I can understand that although it does seem severe to just throw him aside like yesterdays newspaper. "I don't think the MB approach (or any other that insists on no contact with OP) is intended to toss the OP aside. But "saving" the OP is really up to his S and family, and because of the nature of your relationship with him, you can't likely be of much help without risking another A, and you certainly can't focus the attention you need to on your own M and yourself. "Yes, that is why as a WS I was so happy and yet so miserable that I thought death would be a relief at times. Thankfully I didn't have that much of a desire to be dead."You'll find that many (maybe nearly all?) WS's have suicidal thoughts. My W did (sometimes still does) and I certainly did for about a month and a half after D-day. But after starting Cing and posting to this forum, I feel much better about myself these days, and I feel I can do a much better job helping my W feel better about herself, so she won't need to feel like suicide anymore either. That's probably the single most important reason for being honest and telling your H everything about the A, when he can truly start rebuilding himself and your M from his side of the coin, he'll be better able to help YOU overcome your own despair."'Be honest, your family will be hurt deeply by what's happened, but will ultimately respect you for it.'I'm afraid to do this part. I'm not ready yet. Are you glad to know?"Well, I wouldn't exactly use the term "glad," but I am very very much better off now that I do know. Remember, if I had known about the first PA 11 years ago, I could have been in a better position to deal with it then, and we'd have had a stronger M all this time since then. My W has said many times that she'd prefer that I hadn't found out, that she would have told me eventually. Well, since she had decided to end the A last fall, our R was definiltely improving, and I loved it. I had no idea why it was, though, and I've pointed out that it may have been possible for future withdrawl, for whateve reason, to crop up again at some time down the line, and the whole vicious cycle of A's might just have repeated itself. At best, our M would have been "better" but it wouldn't have been nearly as strong as it looks like it *might* eventually be, now that the A is on the table and we can focus on the issues in our M that enabled it to happen.Hang in there, CM. This will be very, very hard, particularly since your A with OM was so intense for so long and is so recent. I wouldn't "wait until a more opportune moment" to tell your H, but you might meet with a C yourself (and find a GOOD one!) before you break the news, so that you'll hear a professional's perspective on how best to do so.persevere,

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by 2long:
CM: "Thank you for some words of encouragement. They are the only ones I have gotten so far. When I first came to this site I read some posts and I left for a quite some time because I was afraid to be yelled at and criticized."You're welcome. You won't be the first person to be afraid of the responses from this forum. Hang in there, people really do want to help (because they really do want to BE helped, themselves). "I do notice that you don't mention helping om. I can understand that although it does seem severe to just throw him aside like yesterdays newspaper. "I don't think the MB approach (or any other that insists on no contact with OP) is intended to toss the OP aside. But "saving" the OP is really up to his S and family, and because of the nature of your relationship with him, you can't likely be of much help without risking another A, and you certainly can't focus the attention you need to on your own M and yourself. "Yes, that is why as a WS I was so happy and yet so miserable that I thought death would be a relief at times. Thankfully I didn't have that much of a desire to be dead."You'll find that many (maybe nearly all?) WS's have suicidal thoughts. My W did (sometimes still does) and I certainly did for about a month and a half after D-day. But after starting Cing and posting to this forum, I feel much better about myself these days, and I feel I can do a much better job helping my W feel better about herself, so she won't need to feel like suicide anymore either. That's probably the single most important reason for being honest and telling your H everything about the A, when he can truly start rebuilding himself and your M from his side of the coin, he'll be better able to help YOU overcome your own despair."'Be honest, your family will be hurt deeply by what's happened, but will ultimately respect you for it.'I'm afraid to do this part. I'm not ready yet. Are you glad to know?"Well, I wouldn't exactly use the term "glad," but I am very very much better off now that I do know. Remember, if I had known about the first PA 11 years ago, I could have been in a better position to deal with it then, and we'd have had a stronger M all this time since then. My W has said many times that she'd prefer that I hadn't found out, that she would have told me eventually. Well, since she had decided to end the A last fall, our R was definiltely improving, and I loved it. I had no idea why it was, though, and I've pointed out that it may have been possible for future withdrawl, for whateve reason, to crop up again at some time down the line, and the whole vicious cycle of A's might just have repeated itself. At best, our M would have been "better" but it wouldn't have been nearly as strong as it looks like it *might* eventually be, now that the A is on the table and we can focus on the issues in our M that enabled it to happen.Hang in there, CM. This will be very, very hard, particularly since your A with OM was so intense for so long and is so recent. I wouldn't "wait until a more opportune moment" to tell your H, but you might meet with a C yourself (and find a GOOD one!) before you break the news, so that you'll hear a professional's perspective on how best to do so.persevere,<hr></blockquote>2Long,
You have given me some very good feedback and advice. Thank you for taking the time to do so. I have to think hard on it. Children are involved. If I can make my relatinship better with H in doing so then I think I could find the courage somehow. But the children are a very big concern for me.

CM: "If I can make my relatinship better with H in doing so then I think I could find the courage somehow. But the children are a very big concern for me. "All the more reason to talk to a good C as soon as possible. NOW would not be too soon! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] I have a good friend with M problems. He's been in C the past 6 months (no A, but other problems). He says that 1 session a week should be the MINIMUM, and that he prefers 2/week. I have had 2 in a week, but for the most part they average out to 1/week. I meet with 2 separate IC's and my W and I meet with an MC together (but not often enough, in my opinion). I'm still trying to get her to meet regularly with an IC for herself.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by CMiranda:
[QB][/QB]<hr></blockquote>I can't tell where your quotes leave off and your responses start, but I waded through it and see where you apologized for being a snot and now I have to apologize for my sarcastic and stupid counterattack. I thought you were just here to be unpleasant and to incite disharmony. After reading some of your responses to the wise gentleman who was kind enough to look beyond the barbs, I admit I also see that you are dealing in a struggle within.It seems I spend a lot of time here lately playing guardian at the gate looking out for insensitive OP's spoiling for a fight and I have become hypersensitive to attacks against the members here who are in raw pain. So, try to bear in mind I really didn't believe you or think you wanted help, just absolution and to stir things up with rude remarks. Again, if I am wrong, I apologize.So, I guess I was a hypocrite. I was just as rude and judgmental as you were and I should know better. Since you are really here to find your way back to your marriage, I'm here for you, too.Catnip =^^=

CM, I am going to have to leave the advice up to the others as I am just too close to this situation to be impartial. It was me two years ago defending my OM and our relationship just as you are now. I had ALL the same feelings that you are speaking of. I defended what I was doing and feeling to my H(who knew of the A), to my sisters, parents, friends and anyone else who tried to tell me it would pass. Well it did pass and now all I feel is shame and stupidity and embarassment over how I acted. I guess all I want to do is take you by the shoulders and shake some sense into you, but having once been where you are now I know that wouldn't work. Try to listen to the advice you will recieve here. If you want to save your marriage it will not be easy or fun or quick. It is a lot of hard work.

WIB:I think your advice might be very helpful to CM here, because of your similar situations.I guess I felt some sort of empathy for her situation because it (and yours, now) reminds me of what my WW is going through now. When she sent a very personal (IMO, she disagreed) email to OM on my birthday last month without telling me (I found it when he replied), I blew my snooping "cover" by telling her when she called me that afternoon. I had been about to send her and OM an email telling her to stay away from me and him to stay away from her. Basically, politely telling them to both get their heads out of their a$$3$ and focus their energies on their families from now on. My IC stopped me from sending the email, and though the ride has been pretty bumpy at times since then, I'm so very glad that I still have my W home with me and our kids (damn, I'm getting teary eyed again!). I've kept the email on my computer, but I have not told her about it or how close I came to just calling off our M right then and there.Basically, the situation is that up to very recently, my W has defended OM and her "friendship" with him pretty much above her own M and family (on the day of the email discovery, she yelled at BOTH me and my D when we both told her independently that any kind of R with him would never work). No offense CM, but your defense of your R with your MM sounded very similar to my W's (which may have been why I responded with such anger at first, and I'm very sorry that I did). She is getting a little more of what I think of the situation from me without me LBing (I think), and does recognize what my IC says as being sound advice (that if I focus on our M, and things improve because of it, OM will become a non-issue), making sense to her. I will need to talk to her more with time about what "non-issue" means to me, which is no contact forever, period. But it has to be her choice, not my demand. I don't want to drive her away from me and toward him for comfort by being demanding, when things are improving between us and our R is sometimes just plain more wonderful than it's ever been, just because I can't get this OM out of my head. The fog (and that s**t is REAL, believe me) is showing signs of starting to really lift, and so if I wait (painful, to be sure) for her to come out of it on her own, we'll have a much better chance at truly beginning recovery. And yes, I don't think we're really in recovery yet, because until she severs contact completely with OM, she's still in denial, in my view.This is hard. It's been hard, it's going to be hard. It's going to be long. But hang in there, the end results, whether it be a stronger M or a stronger YOU, will be worth the work you put into it.

I found out about a week ago.We're not married but we've been together 7 years. We live together and have 3ds.I love him desperately but he cheats on me over and over again. Please give me some advice in what to do. Should I leave or stay the OW is keeping the OC.I really wish she would terminate because then I know I would stay,But I'm always the one telling everyone to leave.Please someone help.He lies and says the don't mess with each other but I know their still together.What could I do.I'm hurting so bad and I have a 5month old baby.Help me PLease.

WIB,Isn't frustrating to see how something will very like go, or perhaps its potential and NOT be able to make the other person see what is so evident??CM, I have only one real recommendation for you. Listen to WIB and to 2long. THey are giving you good advice. And when you want to know the real nitty gritty, Catnip, is a good one to listen to. She won't blow any smoke your way, as you can tell from her posts to you.Keep thinking about this CM. As simple as things sound, there is some very sound and fundamental logic being applied to these situations. It isn't pain free but the MB approach is effective.God Bless,JL

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by CMiranda:
... the children are a very big concern for me.<hr></blockquote>The bottom line, I believe, is that innocent children are of concern to everyone who posts here... [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Nobody here can bring CM out of the fog, that is something only she can do.I don't believe that she will be able to do it until she has seen her H's pain and felt the responsibility for that pain. Heck, I saw my H's pain and it still took me almost 3 yrs to wake up. CM has expressed her concern of mourning the OM first before she tells her H. Bad idea IMO. She hasn't had do deal with the ramifications of her actions in the real world yet and until she does I don't see the fog going anywhere. She needs to get a good book such as Surviving an Affair from this site,read it, then have it ready for her H to read when she tells him. And she needs to do it soon. He is at a terrible disadvantage by being in the dark.

WIB:"Nobody here can bring CM out of the fog, that is something only she can do.I don't believe that she will be able to do it until she has seen her H's pain and felt the responsibility for that pain. Heck, I saw my H's pain and it still took me almost 3 yrs to wake up."This is very sobering to me, because of the similarities between my W's A and yours and CMs. My W is very intelligent, making the fog particularly thick so that I don't even think the hot sun can effectively burn it off. Even when things are going pretty well between us, I fear that it's only that way because we manage to avoid the sensitive subjects. No, my W has definitely NOT felt my pain, even though she's seen me in agony (mostly around D-day). She's too busy with her current job to have time to feel much of anything. "CM has expressed her concern of mourning the OM first before she tells her H. Bad idea IMO."The only way to deal with this is to bring it all out in the open as quickly as possible, making sure that contact with OM has ceased and won't resume. CM will have a very hard time keeping her M together after such a long and intense A. ...see, now *I'm* getting apprehensive again about my own situation!"She hasn't had do deal with the ramifications of her actions in the real world yet and until she does I don't see the fog going anywhere. She needs to get a good book such as Surviving an Affair from this site,read it, then have it ready for her H to read when she tells him. And she needs to do it soon. He is at a terrible disadvantage by being in the dark."I really do hope that CM reads and considers your post, WIB. Hard truths are sometimes too hard to accept, but coming from someone in a similar position, they need to be recognized for their true value. Though my situation appears also to be similar, I'm on the other side of the fence, and so I sometimes feel like I'm placating my W just to keep her from leaving. Sorry to be so downbeat this morning. I didn't sleep all that well last night. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]

That's because you were up too late posting on GQII. I was just reading them.

WIB:Yep, you're right. I did stay up too late. Maybe I'm putting too much time into this forum lately. I get a lot out of it, for the most part, and chiming in when I think I can help has really picked me up at times. Work and sleep need to be factored in somewhere, too, though.

2long,
I just read your signature. I hadn't realized that your d-day was so recent. My poor H put up with it for almost 3 yrs. Just keep sounding your fog horn, your W will find you again. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

WIB:Gawd, I hope so! My W is(was) truly a wonderful person. If she weren't, I wouldn't care, since the A and "illicit friendship" lasted so damned long. Under even somewhat lesser circumstances, I wouldn't put much hope in our recovery. The prospect of a 3-year fog is pretty daunting. I don't think I'll stay quiet and "loving" that long. I would definitely contact OM and OMW myself, to try to put a stop to this "friendship" from the other side. Just Learning had some great advice, which I passed on to her in a "heated discussion" (not really an argument) about a week and a half ago:W: I'll always care about OM as a friend. You can't expect us not to communicate and see each other as friends.Me: Okay, but if it's going to be a friendship, you won't mind if I tell OM that I know about your A, and HE won't mind if I contact his W and tell her about your A. Get it all out on the table so that we can all move forward with honesty and trust you together out of town.She got quiet after that one, then we "discussed" therapy. W said something goofy about "therapists can't really help you at all. You have to help yourself." To which I replied, "but you are too close to the problem yourself to see it objectively, so you NEED to talk to an outside party about it." She disagreed, so I said "I give up." By that I mean, if she won't work on our M, then I WILL give up at some point and separate. Later, when we were snuggling and talking about things we'd miss about each other (I loved that thread last week on the forum), at one point she said that she sometimes worries that when she comes home from out of town, she might find me packed up and moved out without saying anything. I think I said something like "I'd let you know if I was going to do that. I wouldn't just leave." Let her simmer on that one for a while. (not to be mean, but to try to get her to take this seriously, like I do).

2long, The lifting of the fog is a gradual process. I know, it would be nice if it happened overnight. I think it is the good things that happen between the spouses during this gradual process that enable the BSs to hang on as long as they do. I know in my situation that not all of the 3 yrs were horrible. There were periods of time when that fog lifted just enough to return to the old me and we actually had some pretty terrific times. Then it would roll back in again. But a funny thing happens at a certain point. That fog rolls away and it never comes back. Keep the faith.

WIB:Is your story posted somewhere on the forum? I'd hate to make you repeat painful history for my benefit here. But I am curious, and CM's "wounds" are really just starting to open, as mine are.Thanks in advance

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by catnip:
I can't tell where your quotes leave off and your responses start, but I waded through it and see where you apologized for being a snot and now I have to apologize for my sarcastic and stupid counterattack. I thought you were just here to be unpleasant and to incite disharmony. After reading some of your responses to the wise gentleman who was kind enough to look beyond the barbs, I admit I also see that you are dealing in a struggle within.It seems I spend a lot of time here lately playing guardian at the gate looking out for insensitive OP's spoiling for a fight and I have become hypersensitive to attacks against the members here who are in raw pain. So, try to bear in mind I really didn't believe you or think you wanted help, just absolution and to stir things up with rude remarks. Again, if I am wrong, I apologize.So, I guess I was a hypocrite. I was just as rude and judgmental as you were and I should know better. Since you are really here to find your way back to your marriage, I'm here for you, too.Catnip =^^=<hr></blockquote>I can't tell you thank you enough for your apology. I can see why you had the impression that I was here to make life more miserable for those who seemed so full of anger toward people like me. Likewise, my anger for alot of years was toward my H and BS of OM, even om at times. I was very defensive and I still am somewhat but I'm trying to have an open mind and my feelings are beginning to change.
I do understand that you are in a difficult position being on the other side. I don't know if you can accept this from me, but the truth is, as the ow for so long, I wished I could have been "in the dark" and was envious that my om protected his w so diligently. I got the truth and she was sheltered. You see, the pain of an A escapes not one of us catnip. As 2long told me yesterday, trying to manage 2 intimate relationships is insane. I see now that I've been away from it for a few weeks that it really does go against the grain of being human. At least that is my brain's take on it. My heart still has to catch up and really believe I have to let him go completely.

<blockquote>quote:<hr> <hr></blockquote>My first reaction is if your relationship is so wonderful what is your un-obligated SM doing having a relationship with someone else? Is he afraid of his responsibilities to child, is that what keeps him with you?CMiranda,
Good question...I am not implying that things did not go wrong in our relationship, that would be foolish of me. What I am saying is that the on again off again relationship he shared with these women was about one thing: money. I dared to believe him at first but have since come to see through both their stories and his that this is in fact true. From both ow I get that he only spewed words of love when he needed something from them, at times when we were hard up for money they provided and he took it. Yes sex was involved, but not a primary reason, but how many men will turn down free a**? [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] SO is not obligated to do anything for my child yet he continues to do so, and has made it very clear to me as I have to him, that children can be raised by one parent. He says he is one of the few people in the world who is capable of walking out of any situation without feeling the emotion, self-proclaimed stone he says. So no, to answer your question he is not with me out of obligation. If he felt obligated then he would be feeling the same for her would he not? As it is, he has chosen no contact with her despite her situation..not saying a lot for the obligation thing????Furthermore, I realize that you have been on both sides of the fence here but it seems to me that if you were leaning at all it would be toward the ow side, you may have been a bs but you certainly didn't learn anything when you were. JMHO.Bridgette

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by want it back:
CM, I am going to have to leave the advice up to the others as I am just too close to this situation to be impartial. It was me two years ago defending my OM and our relationship just as you are now. I had ALL the same feelings that you are speaking of. I defended what I was doing and feeling to my H(who knew of the A), to my sisters, parents, friends and anyone else who tried to tell me it would pass. Well it did pass and now all I feel is shame and stupidity and embarassment over how I acted. I guess all I want to do is take you by the shoulders and shake some sense into you, but having once been where you are now I know that wouldn't work. Try to listen to the advice you will recieve here. If you want to save your marriage it will not be easy or fun or quick. It is a lot of hard work.<hr></blockquote>(Forgive me if you receive 2 responses to this, I submitted my 1st but got an error, I don't know if it will surface)
I need someone like yourself who has felt what I'm feeling now and got past it. I desperately want what you have found. Please don't write me off.
I am completely torn and if it is fog as everyone here refers to it, then I'm in it and can't find my way out. I'm a fairly logical person and my head tells me to behave my way out in the manner I should have been living my life with my H all the time my A was going on. But it's just the motions of a happy life. My heart is blind and can't or won't help me find my way out.

Unfortunately my story is scattered throughout this forum like dust in the wind. Bits and pieces everywhere so I will recap.
I am 38, my H is 40. We have been married for 14 yrs. We have 2 sons ages 12 and 13, and an 11 month old daughter who was the result of my affair.
My A started in the summer of 97 with a man from work and officially ended in Sept. of 2000. It started as an EA. After I realized what was happening I went to my H and told him that I had feelings for another man and I asked him to go to counseling with me.(So essentially my H knew from the beginning). We talked alot and My H thought that this was something we could deal with on our own without counseling. Wrong. EA turned PA and for 3 years I waffled back and forth between my H and OM. I did all the awful things and said all the hateful things but as I said before, there were times when that fog lifts and then comes back. Finally in Sept. 00 I had the opportunity to stay at a friends house for 5 days while they were out of town. It was during this separation from my H that the fog lifted for good. It had been going in that direction for some time but the separation drove it home for me. I ended the A for good and went back home. It was shortly after that I found out I was pregnant. That in itself was a roller coaster ride. It has not been until these last several months that things have really started to get good for us again, but we had a lot of things to overcome that are not present in your situation. The fog is just what it sounds like and you can not convince anyone who is in that fog that it exists. Everything is distorted, and things that would normally be so obvious to this person are lost on them. I absolutely marvel at how blind I was. I mean I had it bad. As bad as anyone could I imagine. It is scary to know how easy you can lose yourself and how difficult it is to find yourself again. I would hate to imagine what would have happened to me had my H given up on me. I don't even want to go there.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by want it back:
Unfortunately my story is scattered throughout this forum like dust in the wind. Bits and pieces everywhere so I will recap.
I am 38, my H is 40. We have been married for 14 yrs. We have 2 sons ages 12 and 13, and an 11 month old daughter who was the result of my affair.
My A started in the summer of 97 with a man from work and officially ended in Sept. of 2000. It started as an EA. After I realized what was happening I went to my H and told him that I had feelings for another man and I asked him to go to counseling with me.(So essentially my H knew from the beginning). We talked alot and My H thought that this was something we could deal with on our own without counseling. Wrong. EA turned PA and for 3 years I waffled back and forth between my H and OM. I did all the awful things and said all the hateful things but as I said before, there were times when that fog lifts and then comes back. Finally in Sept. 00 I had the opportunity to stay at a friends house for 5 days while they were out of town. It was during this separation from my H that the fog lifted for good. It had been going in that direction for some time but the separation drove it home for me. I ended the A for good and went back home. It was shortly after that I found out I was pregnant. That in itself was a roller coaster ride. It has not been until these last several months that things have really started to get good for us again, but we had a lot of things to overcome that are not present in your situation. The fog is just what it sounds like and you can not convince anyone who is in that fog that it exists. Everything is distorted, and things that would normally be so obvious to this person are lost on them. I absolutely marvel at how blind I was. I mean I had it bad. As bad as anyone could I imagine. It is scary to know how easy you can lose yourself and how difficult it is to find yourself again. I would hate to imagine what would have happened to me had my H given up on me. I don't even want to go there.<hr></blockquote>You are right about alot of common sense being lost on people like me. I don't understand it myself either really. love is blind unfortunately and that is what the fight is for me, getting beyond it, the fog and/or love.
I wanted to know something, is your baby being raised by you and your husband and is om completely out of picture? Does he know about baby and if so, was he willing to let child go or did he have no choice?

The OM was given the opportunity to make his own decision about being in my D's life. He chose to pay CS and have visitation. He sees her 3 times a week for 3 or 4 hrs.
My H is her real daddy though and has accepted her as his own.

C MirandaPerhaps I can give you a look from another standpoint concerning your present dilemma of completing the mourning process before you confess to your H. WIB referred to a 3-year fog and I am here to tell you that it can be much longer than that if you so choose. My precious W put off mourning for over 7 years and what forced her to do it then was the final realization that it was not allowing her to be “whole”. Although consciously she did not realize it at the time, her second A and subsequent discovery were signals that she needed help and could not live with this any longer. She obviously wanted to be caught since it was such a transparent ruse that even a dummy like me was suspicious. It was like dumping ice water on me while asleep. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] I cannot honestly say that she saw my pain for all of those years, as WIB said she did, but I feel now that she has seen me emerge from my former self (emotionally dysfunctional, withdrawn, pessimistic, etc.). She realizes that I was subconsciously protecting myself emotionally and she was partially responsible for the continuance of this state.Ultimately she is now paying severe consequences for her mistakes. The loss of her sons’ respect and their refusal to even communicate with her is at times more than she can bear (and me as well). I at first did not believe that our marriage could survive after d-day especially after finding continued contact with MM2 but now I know that although a great deal of damage has been done there is no stopping us now from attaining the marriage we envisioned 40 years ago. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] In summary I don’t need to tell you what your choices are, but I will anyway. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] One, you can continue to indefinitely procrastinate the mourning process. Two, you can attempt to mourn alone and never tell H. Three, you can allow your H to be there with you as you try to rebuild your marriage. IMHO options one and two although possible are not the best paths to take. Sooner or later I feel you will come to the same conclusion that my W came to and it will be much harder then. Perhaps I am being overly optimistic in feeling that your H will be able to handle this now since I don’t know him, but if you love him and if you can love yourself it will not matter. This will pass and you will both grow from it. Don’t allow it to fester.God BlessUsed long ago
[img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by want it back:
The OM was given the opportunity to make his own decision about being in my D's life. He chose to pay CS and have visitation. He sees her 3 times a week for 3 or 4 hrs.
My H is her real daddy though and has accepted her as his own.<hr></blockquote>If you had to do it all again once you found out you were carrying om child; would you change anything?

I began the mourning process alone, before I came to this site and learned about the alternatives. I had turned to om for some emotional support in very beginning of my venture back to H but I knew that I had to stop going to him to talk about how miserable I was. It only hurt us both and recovery I see now. I am struggling with turning him away when he needs to call me and just say hi and see how I am or tell me that he isn't doing so great. I don't know if I am strong enough to tell him to stop calling me because deep down I don't want to stop being his friend. (and I don't mean "fuzzy friend" either, real friendship is what we dream we can have someday) See, our "plan" was to eventually be "real" friends and incorporate our spouses into our friendship and do things that couples who are friends really do together. Everything I read here suggests I have to abandon that plan and that we were completely crazy to think someday down the road this could work.? This "plan" was devised before I learned about the importance of telling my H. I did tell OM recently that Dr. H and people here said we should have no contact whatsoever. He said that I should stop coming and listeining to that advice here. I can't imagine what he'd say if I told him I was considering telling my H about him. That is another question, am I soppose to warn OM that I'm going to do something as drastic as tell my H?
I honestly don't want to hurt H, OM, OM wife or children involved but I do want to avoid the perpetual "fog" as it is called here. I want it to end. I worry when I read about how it can take years. I know I can't do this for years, I have only out relationship with OM for 1 month but I want my life back now.

CM, I'm not sure what you are referring to. Would I change having OM in my D's life or would I have changed having the affair even though it gave me a beautiful D?
In the case of the OM, He would have found out about pregnancy anyway. I'm just saying that I didn't force him to do anything where my D was concerned. I let him decide. If it had been totally up to me I would not have him in our lives.In the case of the A. Even though I love my D with all my heart and can not imagine life without her now, if I could go back in time and not have the A I would.

WantItBack,
That was what I wanted to know, if you would want OM in your lives today because he has acknowledged child as his opposed to your H being her true and only Daddy and OM being out of your life for good when A ended? Any person raising a child is their real parent I believe as well. Of course, how could any parent regret having a child no matter how that child came to be. I certainly understand that. What do you plan to tell your D someday when she has to be told why she has 2 fathers?

The truth. That nobody is perfect and we all have bad judgement sometimes. How important it is to be able to give and receive forgivness. How lucky I am that such a beautiful D came out of a situation that was difficult for everyone. And most of all I will let her know how very lucky she is to have so many people who love her so much.

CMiranda:
"I had turned to om for some emotional support in very beginning of my venture back to H but I knew that I had to stop going to him to talk about how miserable I was. It only hurt us both and recovery I see now."This is your sensible side talking."I don't know if I am strong enough to tell him to stop calling me because deep down I don't want to stop being his friend."This is where your emotions are dominating your thinking."(and I don't mean "fuzzy friend" either, real friendship is what we dream we can have someday)"Don't know what a fuzzy friend is, but the real friendship never really existed in the first place. It was, at best, a friendship based on lies (to your families)."See, our "plan" was to eventually be "real" friends and incorporate our spouses into our friendship and do things that couples who are friends really do together. Everything I read here suggests I have to abandon that plan and that we were completely crazy to think someday down the road this could work.?"Think about this for a minute. You've had an intense A with this OM for over 6 years without your Spouses' consent or knowledge. What do you think the chances are that they could ever accept your "new" friendship in their lives??? I'm in this very situation right now with my WW. That [censored] OM has robbed me and my family of a part of my W's life for 11 damned years now and she's lied to us the whole time. She still thinks that she can be friends with this guy, and when our D and I say it's impossible, she says she figures she may have to just be alone (since she realizes that living with OM is not possible). Don't you see? Even though she believes she's ended the A with the OM, comments like this where she defends the OM so vehemently just prove that she prioritizes this friendship (really still an EA) above her own family! So, I believe very strongly you should NOT expect your Spoouses to accept any form of this "plan" of yours and OM's in their lives whatsoever. Simply stated, you HAVE TO CHOOSE. The real life of your M (or being single) or this fantasy lie with OM. Not very attractive choices, particularly since choosing your M will have to be by the consent of your H, and he may not want it for himself."This "plan" was devised before I learned about the importance of telling my H. I did tell OM recently that Dr. H and people here said we should have no contact whatsoever. He said that I should stop coming and listeining to that advice here. I can't imagine what he'd say if I told him I was considering telling my H about him."This man is starting to show his true colors here. He wants you to continue to lie to your own family. He wants you to stop seeking help for yourself. What a selfish jerk!"That is another question, am I soppose to warn OM that I'm going to do something as drastic as tell my H?"Absolutely NOT!!! What you say to your H is NONE OF HIS BUSINESS. What you say to your OM is VERY MUCH your H's business!!!"I honestly don't want to hurt H, OM, OM wife or children involved but I do want to avoid the perpetual "fog" as it is called here."There's no way you can avoid hurting these people. You already have hurt your family, maybe irrevocably. They just haven't lived the pain yet. But they will. If you tell your H about the A before he finds out, the pain may be a bit less, or at least his chances of rebuilding his trust in you may be somewhat greater. Don't worry about OM or his family. That's his problem and none of your business. I honestly wish my W would stop telling me she doesn't want to tell her OM that I know about the A because she doesn't want to hurt him. HURT HIM, dammit! (I don't really mean that, if you don't have to, I'm just reliving my own feelings while I type. Please bear with me). I can't understand how she could be interested in our M, be willing to have hurt ME so much, but be so concerned about OM's feelings. Fog."I want it to end."Good for you! You have a good chance with that attitude."I worry when I read about how it can take years. I know I can't do this for years,"Neither can I. Nor is your H likely to have an "easy time" with any of this. But that's life, isn't it? At least you are posting here and getting and giving feedback. I wish my W would do something like this."I have only out relationship with OM for 1 month but I want my life back now. "I hope you mean the life with your family, not the OM. Good luck to you.

Ok, I hope this works how I want it to. I've been getting the older two kids off to school, and dealing with Abbi at the same time. <blockquote>quote:<hr>I had turned to om for some emotional support in very beginning of my venture back to H but I knew that I had to stop going to him to talk about how miserable I was. It only hurt us both and recovery I see now.<hr></blockquote>You are correct in your statement of hurting both you and xOM and your recovery. But, I also want to point out, and you may already "know" this, but your recovery can be so much easier, in the long run, if you tell your H. He can support you and be the "sholder to cry on" instead of xOM. (Oh, and I am going to reffer to your MM as the xOM, because I truly feel you want to correct your mistakes and that is how you now need to view him, as an "x")

<blockquote>quote:<hr>I am struggling with turning him away when he needs to call me and just say hi and see how I am or tell me that he isn't doing so great. I don't know if I am strong enough to tell him to stop calling me because deep down I don't want to stop being his friend. (and I don't mean "fuzzy friend" either, real friendship is what we dream we can have someday) See, our "plan" was to eventually be "real" friends and incorporate our spouses into our friendship and do things that couples who are friends really do together. Everything I read here suggests I have to abandon that plan and that we were completely crazy to think someday down the road this could work.? This "plan" was devised before I learned about the importance of telling my H.<hr></blockquote>I can see how it will be hard to have a complete break w/xOM. Especially when the A(again, I am not going to refer to it as a relationship, as it was truly an A that lasted 6+yrs) lasted so long! Yes, you both became close, but at the cost of possibly loosing your M. You now want to work on your M, and repair this damage. I tell you now, it can't be done if you are still "friends" with xOM! You are too used to going to him for your support, and if you want to "change" your relationship to xOM, you can't remain friends! You literally need to choose between the xOM and your M! You can't have both, and have the type of M you say you want! Your H needs to be that friend that you go to! <blockquote>quote:<hr>I did tell OM recently that Dr. H and people here said we should have no contact whatsoever. He said that I should stop coming and listeining to that advice here.<hr></blockquote>You know, this almost sounds like what xOM did to me! Like many other's here, my story is LONG, and all over the board! Long story short, H and I decided to have all contact broken on D-day! It wasn't really something we sat down and stated out loud, but I didn't want to have anything more to do w/xOM! Now, there are many reasons why I felt this way, but D-day was a true eye opener! I found out how xOM truly was! He was similar to your xOM's response of wanting to keep contact! He wanted to talk to me, but I would refuse, and H had already told him that I didn't want to talk to him ever again! xOM took it so far as to try to "blackmail" me into talking to him! Pretty pathetic if you actually look at it! But, when you do cut all contact, it just lifts the fog that much quicker! I know, there is a child involved, and I will get to that at the end.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>I can't imagine what he'd say if I told him I was considering telling my H about him. That is another question, am I soppose to warn OM that I'm going to do something as drastic as tell my H? <hr></blockquote>I don't think you should look at it as "warning" the xOM, just informing him. And, I wouldn't do it in person, or even on the phone. I would suggest emailing him right before you tell H, otherwise, xOM will try to talk you out of telling your H. You really shouldn't be concerned with what xOM would say, as he is not supposed to be a part of your M. <blockquote>quote:<hr>I honestly don't want to hurt H, OM, OM wife or children involved but I do want to avoid the perpetual "fog" as it is called here. I want it to end. I worry when I read about how it can take years. I know I can't do this for years, I have only out relationship with OM for 1 month but I want my life back now. <hr></blockquote>I understand not wanting to hurt anyone involved, whether they currently know or not, but the longer you wait, the worse it is going to be. I suggest you look into Usedlongago's story, just to see what it can do to someone when you keep your "secret" so long! It doesn't have to take years to get your fog lifted! But, you have to be willing to lift it!As for the child from this A, What is the deal with that? Does your H believe she(I think I saw that it was a girl) is his child? That is going to be a rough one when you do "come clean" with him. But, it can be worked through! In our case, the A was over before I found out that I was expecting! We also never told xOM about the pregnancy, and my H is and always will be Abbi's Daddy! We will tell all our children what happened, but when they are a little older. And, Abbi will be told as well.You really do sound as if you want your M to work, but you need to break all contact w/xOM! You can not get over the A until that is done. There will always be "something" there that can turn the tide when you least expect it if you continue to be "friends"! It's like what people have been telling MM over on GQII, you are still cheating your H, you are cheating him out of making his own choices regarding your M by not telling him about the A! Give him a chance, you may be surprised at his final reaction! For me, I was expecting H to tell me to leave, and even told him I would if that's what he wanted, but he told me that's not what he wanted, and we are now almost 2 yrs into recovery! Give him a chance to decide, and then go from there! And, stop worrying so much about xOM and his M, that is now his problem to deal with, as you want to repair your own M.I hope this made some sense, and helps you in some way! If you want to know more about my situation, just let me know!Tigger

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 2long:
2long,
I hope my reply looks as organized as yours so that you can read it and make sense of it. I havent gotten the skill down yet so bear with me.1. "I don't know if I am strong enough to tell him to stop calling me because deep down I don't want to stop being his friend."
"This is where your emotions are dominating your thinking".I agree but how do I shut off emotions that are equivalent to run away train, its as if they have a life of their own and they aren't mine anymore to control? This is a big struggle. I imagine this is where your W is getting hung up. Change hurts no matter how good it is. An A is a balancing act. If your wife and I are anything alike, she doesn't want to hurt you. But in the quest to improve M you have asked her to be honest. Us ws hide A's in part to keep bs from being hurt. We shelter you like a fragile shell out of fear and out of love and protectivness. Not that you can't bear it or won't but we don't want to put you through it if we can spare you the pain we ourselves are enduring. Why hurt anyone so deeply when you love them? 2. "(and I don't mean "fuzzy friend" either, real friendship is what we dream we can have someday)"
"Don't know what a fuzzy friend is, but the real friendship never really existed in the first place. It was, at best, a friendship based on lies (to your families)."Sorry, fuzzy means the kind of friendship I had with my OM. A Friendship clouded by love,sex,quilt,tenderness,concern,hate,jealously,rage,frustration,envy,competition,sorrow,hope,despair all encompassed into 1 relationship3. "See, our "plan" was to eventually be "real" friends and incorporate our spouses into our friendship and do things that couples who are friends really do together. Everything I read here suggests I have to abandon that plan and that we were completely crazy to think someday down the road this could work.?""Think about this for a minute. You've had an intense A with this OM for over 6 years without your Spouses' consent or knowledge. What do you think the chances are that they could ever accept your "new" friendship in their lives??? I'm in this very situation right now with my WW. That [censored] OM has robbed me and my family of a part of my W's life for 11 damned years now and she's lied to us the whole time. She still thinks that she can be friends with this guy, and when our D and I say it's impossible, she says she figures she may have to just be alone (since she realizes that living with OM is not possible). Don't you see? Even though she believes she's ended the A with the OM, comments like this where she defends the OM so vehemently just prove that she prioritizes this friendship (really still an EA) above her own family! So, I believe very strongly you should NOT expect your Spoouses to accept any form of this "plan" of yours and OM's in their lives whatsoever. Simply stated, you HAVE TO CHOOSE. The real life of your M (or being single) or this fantasy lie with OM. Not very attractive choices, particularly since choosing your M will have to be by the consent of your H, and he may not want it for himself."I don't expect to tell H and he accepts friendship with om. We (OM & me) had originally planned to keep A secret, move out of it and into just a friendship so we wouldn't have to say goodbye for good, and have our spouses become a part of our "new" friendship. I know, it sounds selfish. That is how it sounds as I type this. But at the time it sounded like a good idea. Also, if we could see eachother with our spouses then any feelings we couldn't shutoff on our own would go away having seen OP with their spouse. It did make some sense at the time.. I don't think I believe it anymore.4. "This man is starting to show his true colors here. He wants you to continue to lie to your own family. He wants you to stop seeking help for yourself. What a selfish jerk!"I guess I can't see him as a selfish jerk all the time, although I have called him selfish several times over the years. I thought he doesn't want to believe the principals spoken of here, I sure didn't want to hear any of it at first. He does think we can be friends and sucessfully move past A. He thinks I should be stronger and not rely on "crazy people" to help me. I don't think anyone here is crazy just in desperate need of help through a very hard situation. He is a guy who doesn't talk about feelings or deal with emotions very much because he hates how he feels when he does. Vunerable.5. Absolutely NOT!!! What you say to your H is NONE OF HIS BUSINESS. What you say to your OM is VERY MUCH your H's business!!!I was just thinking that OM should know I was going to tell H so that if my H went nuts and called OM or OM wife, then OM could prepare for worst and hope for best. I don't want to destroy him or his family anymore than I want to ruin my own. I care alot about him. I don't know if I should hope to hate him or feel indifferent toward him..? That can eat up a person just as bad as anything.
6. "...I honestly wish my W would stop telling me she doesn't want to tell her OM that I know about the A because she doesn't want to hurt him. HURT HIM, dammit! (I don't really mean that, if you don't have to, I'm just reliving my own feelings while I type. Please bear with me). I can't understand how she could be interested in our M, be willing to have hurt ME so much, but be so concerned about OM's feelings. Fog."This is what I'm trying to avoid by not telling my H. Spouses don't seem to understand the other side of it and rightfully so. I wouldn't expect him to and likewise you can't understand the twisted loyalty. I'm sure your W is pulled just as I am in that she doesn't want to hurt you or him. But now you know the truth so it becomes much harder to shelter you. She is still in w/d possibly because she still has a friendship with an ex- 7. "I hope you mean the life with your family, not the OM."
Yes, that is what my head wants right now very very much. My heart, well, it is struggling to catch up to my brain. I don't know why I can't get in sync. I want to feel about my H as I did before the relationship went downhill. If your wife is with you now she must want the same. I am so confused and brain/heart are so far off track that I can't give you the kind of good advice you have given me. I'm sorry for that. All I can say is this very simple statement: If you W is with you now, after what seems to be an intense A, she is because she wants to be. The reason almost doesn't matter anymore. That is a strong foundation to build on. If you want it, use it to get what you seem to want, back.
You are far beyond me in terms of getting past A. A new question, is a friendship with ex-lover always an EA? Can it ever be just that, a friendship?

I hope this made some sense, and helps you in some way! If you want to know more about my situation, just let me know!Tigger[/QB][/QUOTE]Thank you so much for your reply. I don't have any more time today to post my response but I defintely will tomorrow. I have alot of questions for you.

CMiranda:"how do I shut off emotions that are equivalent to run away train, its as if they have a life of their own and they aren't mine anymore to control? This is a big struggle. I imagine this is where your W is getting hung up. Change hurts no matter how good it is."I don't think you can shut off the emotions. You never will be able to completely. This is why no contact is essential. Yes, this is where my W is getting hung up. It hurts immensely being patient with her, but I have to."An A is a balancing act. If your wife and I are anything alike, she doesn't want to hurt you. But in the quest to improve M you have asked her to be honest. Us ws hide A's in part to keep bs from being hurt. We shelter you like a fragile shell out of fear and out of love and protectivness. Not that you can't bear it or won't but we don't want to put you through it if we can spare you the pain we ourselves are enduring. Why hurt anyone so deeply when you love them?"The question then comes back to, Why have an A to run away from problems within your M? The answer, of course is: nobody expects the hurt to be this bad when they start, and once they start, it gets harder to stop with time.Sorry, fuzzy means the kind of friendship I had with my OM. A Friendship clouded by love,sex,quilt,tenderness,concern,hate,jealously,rage,frustration,envy,competition,sorrow,hope,despair all encompassed into 1 relationship"This is a good, clear-headed appraisal of an A, if I've ever seen one!"It did make some sense at the time.. I don't think I believe it anymore."Good for you! "He does think we can be friends and sucessfully move past A. He thinks I should be stronger and not rely on "crazy people" to help me. I don't think anyone here is crazy just in desperate need of help through a very hard situation. He is a guy who doesn't talk about feelings or deal with emotions very much because he hates how he feels when he does. Vunerable."My W also thinks the friendship is possible, and has called this website "simplistic and stupid." She's going to have to get over both attitudes, eventually. The more I learn from this site and from C'ing, the less in-line our thinking is becoming. If hers doesn't "evolve," we may wind up not having enough in common anymore. I'm not saying that she can't come up with methods of dealing with our situation on her own, but we'll have to discuss any of them to ever agree whether they're reasonable or not."I was just thinking that OM should know I was going to tell H so that if my H went nuts and called OM or OM wife, then OM could prepare for worst and hope for best."I didn't call or write OM. Most people don't. I have no desire to see or hear from him. But if my W doesn't get off the fence in a reasonable amount of time and tell him to back off, I sure will. Also, if we end up DV, I will contact him and his W. He should not be rewarded with an opportunity to resume the A with my W, just because she's "free" and he's not."I care alot about him. I don't know if I should hope to hate him or feel indifferent toward him..? That can eat up a person just as bad as anything."I don't think it's reasonable for us BS's to expect the WS not to care about the OP anymore. That's being demanding. But that's also one of the very reasons for no contact."This is what I'm trying to avoid by not telling my H. Spouses don't seem to understand the other side of it and rightfully so. I wouldn't expect him to and likewise you can't understand the twisted loyalty. I'm sure your W is pulled just as I am in that she doesn't want to hurt you or him. But now you know the truth so it becomes much harder to shelter you. She is still in w/d possibly because she still has a friendship with an ex-"You won't be able to avoid telling your H forever. Well, you might, but think how miserale you'll be the rest of your life for not being honest with him. And how vulnerable you will continue to be to having another A. Don't presume to know what your H will or will not understand. I actually think I understand my W's predicament a helluva lot better than she does. Mainly due to C'ing and this website. I'm certainly not in a fog now (though I was in one of my own early on, before I realized that *I* am a good person and will survive whatever the outcome of all this). "Yes, that is what my head wants right now very very much."Think about this statement. Your heart wants it too!"If your wife is with you now she must want the same. I am so confused and brain/heart are so far off track that I can't give you the kind of good advice you have given me."But you have, in your own way, by telling me your perspective on your story, which is similar to my W's. This has enabled me to understand a bit more of what's going on in her mind when she won't/can't come out and tell me in her own words."If you W is with you now, after what seems to be an intense A, she is because she wants to be. The reason almost doesn't matter anymore. That is a strong foundation to build on. If you want it, use it to get what you seem to want, back."That's what I intend to do! Thanks!"You are far beyond me in terms of getting past A."I don't think this is necessarily true. Especially when you do tell your H, you will be in for quite a struggle. But do it!"A new question, is a friendship with ex-lover always an EA? Can it ever be just that, a friendship? "Just Learning gave me some advice about this regarding my W's insistence on the continued friendship. He said to tell her that it would be "okay" with me, if all the truth were revealed to both families and we could all agree that the friendship (which would involve them getting together while on business out of town and away from either family) would be completely harmless to our families and our M's. I'm sure he realized, even as he said that, that the whole concept is prepostrous.

<blockquote>quote:<hr> #1 I want to feel about my H as I did before the relationship went downhill. #2 A new question, is a friendship with ex-lover always an EA? Can it ever be just that, a friendship? <hr></blockquote>Hope you don't mind me jumping in here, and don't feel as if I'm taking your first statement above out of context. I just want to say that do you really want to feel the way you did about your H as you did before the A? I ask this because there was something not right in those feelings before, and you could be setting yourself up for another A! You need to re-evaluate how you want to feel about your H, and what you want out of your M to him! I know that I want to feel MORE for my H than I did pre-A! If I felt the same now as I did before, I'm still left open for another OM to come into the picture!#2 I, personally, don't feel that friendship with an xOP is ever a good idea! It is different when you are single, and there was no cheating involved, and you grew apart. But, when you are married, or as in some cases here, have been together as long or longer than some M's, you have an A, and then want to "just be friends", it doesn't work. It was a "relationship" based on lies, so can never be honest! And, it would be too painful for the BS to see this "friendship" between WS and OP! For everyone involved, it is best to have a complete break(hence us never telling xOM about Abbi) for a M to be rebuilt! From my POV, it removes the temptation from WS, and the reminder from the BS.Does that make sense?Tigger

Tigger:"I just want to say that do you really want to feel the way you did about your H as you did before the A?"good point. This whole discussion has steered around the issues wrong in the M that led to the WS's decision to have an A in the first place. Rebuilding the M will have to address these issues as the most important thing. The A is a symptom, not the core of the problem, but it can't be treated as such until it is over and contact is severed."From my POV, it removes the temptation from WS, and the reminder from the BS.""Does that make sense?"YES. And very well put!

CM, You owe the OM NOTHING. Despite all the declarations of love and commitment and promises of the future that I'm sure were exchanged you have to remember that you did those things with your H first. He is the one who desrves your honesty and your loyalty. I know you don't want to hurt the OM but you have to not want to hurt your H more and by not telling your H the truth and giving him the fair chance to save his marriage that is exactly what you are doing. As far as the OM's W and family goes I know you don't want to hurt them either, but they are his responsibility. He needs to be the one to worry about that, you have way to much to worry about already.No contact at all is a very good idea and helps immensely. From the time I told the OM I was pregnant and the time my D was born (6 months), I had no contact at all with him. If you sever all contact with the OM you will not need to see or hear of any pain that is caused in that direction and will be able to concentrate better on your marriage. Boy, I don't envy where you are now. I do know though that I will never be there again.

Dear CM,Excuse me for jumping in here into a well-established thread. My H and I were off in Russia adopting our two new sons. Yes, we are a recovering couple, moving past his 7-year A and the birth of his child by that affair.Did my H love his lover? I know that this topic was brought up at the beginning of this thread. It hurts to admit it, but yes, I believe that he did love her. I am not surprised that his feelings followed where his genitals lead him. Did he still love me at the time of his (extended) affair? I don't know. Only he can tell you that and he claims that he did. My weight was a large problem for him and apparently, one that he could not or would not find a more honest, decent way of dealing with. So, now we have the horrible consequences of my weight, his affair, his child by that affair and a mess for the rest of our lives.Am I glad I know? Tough, but fair question. I am not glad. There is a part of me that will always wish that I didn't know, but it is a small part of me. Most of me wishes that he had never done this. There are days I would prefer to hide my head in the sand and pretend it never happened, but that would be forgetting the important lessons that we have to learn about this.Did I hate him when I found out? Don't confuse hate with rage. I may have wanted to kill him, but I didn't really hate him. Will you husband hate you? I don't know. He may and that is something you have to own up to. He may not want to continue his marriage with you. My strongest feeling on this is that he deserves the truth from you. No one should be forced to live his or her life based on the lies of the one who supposedly loves them. He has every right in the world to know the truth and to decide for himself what he wants the rest of his life to be. The problem with you cutting off contact with OM and *not* telling your H about the affair is that you are most likely too weak to keep up your resolve. My H ended his A many times over the 7 years and was consistently drawn back into it over and over again. She was desperately in love, he had some feelings of love for her (I will never know how much) but he mostly felt responsible for her pain. I say phooey on her pain. She chose this pain for her life. I was the innocent one in this. What was done to me was done w/o my consent. About three years into his A he went to a priest and confessed his A. The priest asked if he had ended it and my H said yes. The priest then asked if my H would ever go back to the A? H swore that no, he never would. The priest said "Go and sin no more" and "don't cause any more pain in your marriage by telling your wife." It proves how very little the priest knew about human nature and the addictive aspects of affairs. How I wish my husband had told me back when recovery would have been easier--before the conception of his child. I imagine that my message sounds pretty bitter, but that truly isn't the way I live most days. We are almost two years into recovery. We have visitation with his daughter and we both love her. We have just adopted our first two children. Life is improving all the time. However, it really spins me up to hear someone talking about protecting another person by lying to them. I demand honesty in all my relationships. Anything else is pure manipulation and that protection that WSs so often talk about seems to me to be more about protecting themselves than about protecting the spouse. If protecting the spouse had been the object, then they never would have entered into the A. JMOI am glad that this thread has turned around. I do wish you all the best in restoring your marriage. I wish you courage and strength. I hope that your husband is a person who can find forgiveness in his heart.MJ

Mary Janes: "However, it really spins me up to hear someone talking about protecting another person by lying to them. I demand honesty in all my relationships. Anything else is pure manipulation and that protection that WSs so often talk about seems to me to be more about protecting themselves than about protecting the spouse. If protecting the spouse had been the object, then they never would have entered into the A. JMO"Thanks for your comments! This is what frosts my tes*****s, too. And it's what's totally destroyed my trust in my W, which is going to be impossible to rebuild if she insists on having "her privacy" and continuing this "friendship" with OM. No, having an A and lying about it to the BS is not protecting the BS or the family at all. It's all about the WS being selfish, pure and simple.

Man, all this has been pretty close to home for me. I guess I got myself pretty worked up by it. When W came home from work today, tired and all, and after I said "I miss you" said "I've been too busy to miss anybody," I just lost my steam. I'm going to take the night off posting and watch Moulin Rouge with my D.

2long,Hang in there. She has no idea what you are going through. Hope you enjoyed the movie.God Bless,JL

Please clarify, what is the meaning of the FOG??

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tigger4jdt:
"I understand not wanting to hurt anyone involved, whether they currently know or not, but the longer you wait, the worse it is going to be. I suggest you look into Usedlongago's story, just to see what it can do to someone when you keep your "secret" so long! It doesn't have to take years to get your fog lifted! But, you have to be willing to lift it!"I have lied to H for so long & had another relationship (I still see it as one as screwed up as it may have been) for over 6 years. How can I tell him that I had this A for that long? I guess my other life or double life as it has become is so emesshed with who am now that it is hard to think about exposing it after hiding it for so long. "As for the child from this A, What is the deal with that? Does your H believe she(I think I saw that it was a girl) is his child? That is going to be a rough one when you do "come clean" with him. But, it can be worked through! In our case, the A was over before I found out that I was expecting! We also never told xOM about the pregnancy, and my H is and always will be Abbi's Daddy! We will tell all our children what happened, but when they are a little older. And, Abbi will be told as well."Yes, I have a son with OM. He is 20 months old and the best thing that ever happened to me and my marriage. Of course the fact that he isn't my H biological child isn't the best thing but our babies presence in our lives is a gift beyond words) Our son is a big factor in bringing us back from the brink of divorce. He drew us together if that makes sense. My shortened story on my son is this:
when I became pregnant I basically handled it on my own in the first month or so. I look back and know it wasn't best for the adults but I still do believe it was right for my chld. I decided that since my H wanted a child and OM already had 2 of his own and mostly because the baby as I imagined it, wouldn't be truly accepted by OM family (they are very religious and he had been with his W since he was 15 so she had long history with them) that baby was better off being loved by 2 people and famlies who really want him and where he can live a normal life full of love. In my OM life, I could not be 1st because of nature of relationship and my heart broke just thinking that our child, if I allowed OM to acknowledge him, wouldn't have the kind of family or father that I wanted for him. He would not only be seen as a bi-product of an A, but would be grandchild number 13 and so his big family doesn't think that much about new babies being a big deal. So I told OM that I was pregnant but I explained I already told H that the baby was his and that we would raise him as our own. At the time, he said he believed in my decision because we had to put this child and his 2 children above everyone else. OM told me while we were talking about "someday ending it" that we never really could cut off eachother completely "if for nothing else, the baby". He does want to see him and hear about his life, etc. from a friend of the family perspective. That is what he said. If I tell H it will destroy him I believe. Then the door is open for OM to try and get some kind of custody. The only deterient he has right now is the secret is still intact. Most of all, I don't want my child having to live with my crazy life choices. I know I can't do that to him.
The more I listein here, telling H does seem fair and does seem, despite the risk of ruining M, to make sense in terms of allowing him to decide and then know what we're up against. Then I think about what he told me when "our" son was born, that it was the happiest day of his life. I don't think I can destroy that. I haven't made up my mind on it. Can't I tell him about A without the baby truth. He is in my eyes my sons only father. "And, stop worrying so much about xOM and his M, that is now his problem to deal with, as you want to repair your own M."
I know I have to stop worrying but it is not easy to do. The sad truth is (2Long is facing some of this now) that even when A is over, the feelings of care and concern linger on. I do know you are right and the lack of contact will help these feelings die down. And like an addiction to anything else, the addicted person can't focus on tomorrow, next week, next month, a lifetime without OP. Rather, I focus on today, I won't see him or talk to him. It helps. My H is in 12 step program for alchoholism so I do understand some 12 step thinking. That is another big concern for me, mostly because of our son, what if he can't take all the emotional carnage and starts to drink again? Ironically, when he stopped drinking I started my A with OM. Neither H or son deserve that.I hope this made some sense, and helps you in some way! If you want to know more about my situation, just let me know!As I understand it, your situation is reverse mine. Your H knows baby is biolocially not his but your ex-om does not? Why did you not tell him and do you think you ever will?

Gemini2, The FOG is that which envelopes you in the midst of an affair. Just as it is when driving through a thick fog. You lose all sense of perception. You see things that aren't there and don't see the things that are there. The world on the outside of this fog is as it always was, but from the inside of this fog it seems that all has changed. Eventually(hopefully) this fog lifts and you once again see things as you had before, and as they always had been even while you were in this fog.

Doesn't the fog envelope those that are betreyed as well? I sure feel like I've lived thru a foggy period myself
Peace

CM,The reason xOM does not, and will never know(from us at least) is that he became VERY violent on D-day and assaulted my H, basically in front of our older D! He(xOM) even told me that the only thing keeping him from killing my H was OD looking out the front window! After that, he proceeded to basically stalk us! We have the police report from the assault, and I had also filed a harassment report! Now, and for the past 1 1/2 yrs, xOM has been almost half a world away! xOM does know where we live right now, but that will be changing very soon, and even though we will be moving closer to where xOM is, he will never know it. All the people around here, who may still have contact with him, are pretty much gone, and will never know were we are being transfered next.Yes, our stories are a little bit different, but in the bare truth, they are so similar! I still feel that it is best to tell your H about your S. Why? Because if you tell him about this 6 yr A, but never come clean about your S, he will begin to suspect anyway! Then, you will have been continuing to lie to him after claiming to have come clean. That could actually be the nail in the coffin, although you may not see it that way. Your H will look at it as you still being dishonest, which he would be right. If you really think about it, if you tell him about the A, and he puts 2 and 2 together, and asks you straight out to get a DNA test to be certain your S is his, how will you respond? I truly believe in the total honesty they talk about on this board. I agree that when you come clean about your A, you need to become clean about everything. Not necessarily the gory details, but the major stuff, like the A itself, and this little boy that was a result of the A! Your H has every right to be told the truth all at once, not to have to wonder in his own mind if his S is truly his or not! Think how much more that will hurt him if you wait till he suspects after you've told him about just the A. There's no way to avoid the pain that you are going to cause. You will be hurting many people, but you can minimize the extent of that pain, instead of putting it off, tell all, all at the same time. In a very real sense, if you don't tell your H about your S, you are taking away his right to choose to be his father! Like I said before, you may just be surprised. Yes, it may take a while to get over the pain of this betrayal, but your H can get past it, and will continue to love your S as his own child! For a very long time, I worried about that exact thing, would my H truly love Abbi. I know that he had a very hard time dealing with my pregnancy, and even the birth of Abbi! But, he now loves her as much as our other children, and she's his in every way that counts! A child, especailly at that age, doesn't care about blood or genetics, they care about love and acceptance! But, it is ultimately your choice and decission. I'm just giving you my POV and the reasons behind our decissions. I also want to give you my welcome here. I know we started out rough, but, as Catnip stated, we tend to be a little protective here, especailly on this particular part of the forum. We've had many who were here to hurt, and in your first posts, you had seemed to be contradicting yourself. I have read where you explained your wording, and do believe you are here for help! I am glad you found this place, and hope you can remain here for as long as it takes to get you through this time in your life.Tigger

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tigger4jdt:
[QB]CM,
Thanks Tigger,for your advice and telling me more about your D and circumstances of OM & H as well as letting me know I'm welcome here. I know I sort of bonbarded my way in.
This is alot to deal with and this site and the words of the people who have given me advice have been ringing in my ears and happily, those thoughts have been replacing my obsessive thoughts of OM and being out of A. Now, I seem to have at last turned down the road of no return to save my M and my life.

CMiranda:Good for you!!! Your story on this thread has been the most amazing turnaround I've seen (though I've only been here for about a month, I've read an AWFUL LOT in that time). You very definitely have some rough roads ahead of you, much rougher than mine even, but you have the exact right attitude to make it all work. Keep posting, and get some good counseling!

Amazing thread people!
Pepper/lurking [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

CMiranda-I didn't have time to read all of your posts. However, I'm confused. Does your H know about the OM? Does he think this child is his and it's not? Are you still involved with OM?
My brain gets muddled trying to figure it out. Are you trying to save your marriage? Thanks for clarifying things.

CMiranda,I thought I might offer you some perspective about what could happen if your H doesn't find out. This is one of the posted from UsedLongAgo. Just click on the highlighted part UsedLongAgo.This is the down side of carrying the secret of your child with you and not sharing with your H.I would also like to suggest that there are two things you need to know. One, after a period of time (depending on your state) your H will be assumed to be the father and be financially responsible for your child. You very likely could not reverse it even if you and H divorce. This is the effect of the Assumed Parenthood laws that men live under.The message: it would be best to tell H before that time arises.Second, don't do a dna test if you really want H to be the father. If OM takes a DNA test and it can be matched to your child he can claim some level of custody and visitation, whether you or your H wants it. Of course he may be made to pay child support, but the issue of Assumed Parenthood may complicate this.There is a poster, Bystander, who is really up on these laws and what they can do to a couple.So be very careful if you want your H to be the Dad to this child. I believe it was Want It Back that pointed out that she would have preferred not to have OM in her life, but he is there.I think you can see by what I have posted as well as what everyone else has posted that life is getting complicated for you. The hard part is that it will get more complicated if you DON'T do anything. Telling your H will be most painful, but it will eventually clear up many things for you, your child and your H. It won't be easy if you do tell your H either.This is tough stuff CM and there are a lot of lives already affected and one created by this situation. Think carefully, get some counseling if for no other reason to discuss how best to break this news to your H.If you read ULA's thread you can see why it might be important to tell him with a counselor present. His whole world is about to be turned upside down. But, I think that ULA's post also shows that he can survive. There are many other men who have posted here in the past in your H's situation.One, final point. I don't know if you know how to navigate around here. If you click on the sun glasses above someones post you will get some history if they have filled out the forms. However on the upper right side is a red line stating that one can see some of the most recent posts. Click that and you will get to see the recent posts. I would suggest that you do that with ULA's post. He hasn't posted much and you can see how it works.If you decide you would like to read more from the H's or even women in your situation let me know I maybe able to direct you to some. I first started posting here because of a woman named "Facing Choices" you do a search for her posts on the archives files. She also was in your shoes and told her H when the child was about 10 months old. This board used to have only one location to post and all posted to that spot instead of being broken up as it is now.In any event, please read ULA's post and listen carefully to the people posting to you: 2long, tigger, WIB, etc. I think you will find their advice sound.God Bless,JL

I agree that your H needs to know. This is much too big of a 'secret' to continue to carry. If he decides to leave, that's his choice. He sounds like a wonderful father so that's a good thing. I guess the OM's wife doesnt' know either? That is not fair.You have said you are trying to protect the children. I give you credit for not having an abortion to doing what you think is right. But it doesn't feel right at all. There are a whole handful of people living lies right now. It reminds me a little of mmseekingadvice who refuses to 'hurt' his wife by telling her. My H also made that choice for me and believe me, IT MADE THINGS MUCH WORSE. I don't think you will find one professional who would encourage you to continue to lie. Have you had counseling? Things aren't going to change unless you do in my opinion. This is way too complicated for you and the OM to sort thru alone.I am sorry for your pain. Please do the right thing

cm
I just thought I would give you something to think about. I was in a situation simialar to yours. My OM wanted to keep things a secret because his W and kids( grown) would be too angry, wife new D might be his, but they had been ignoring it. He was seeing child in secret since she was born. I got tired of it and said he had to come forward or back away forever, because this will hurt. D. HE came forward and told family, some are angry, some are very proud he was a man and owned up to his responsibility. And as much as W and I dont like each other, we work very hard to do what is right for D. Things have worked out for the best in most areas. My husband loves daughter with all his heart and is there for her no matter what. He did not leave as I thought and he thought. He treats her with the same love he does all the children. I am releived and grateful I dont have to hide any more.

2Long,"The question then comes back to, Why have an A to run away from problems within your M? The answer, of course is: nobody expects the hurt to be this bad when they start, and once they start, it gets harder to stop with time."
Absolutely right. In my case and I suspect in many other WS, sometime after A starts (and it is not well devised plan in the beginning, for myself and OM, we had never been in this kind of R before so it played out as it happened, we had no idea what would come of it or how much pain we'd be setting ourselves up for. I was so idealistic back then and naive) I fell hopelessly in love with OM and there was a window of time where I was feeling strongly about telling H and ending M. However, once that window closes in part from the progression of clandestine relationship and all of the problems (aka reality) that it encompasses and has to deal with, the fear sets in that spouse could find out and then A would have to end and WS wants A to continue but now isn't so convinced M has to end. And so the protection of Spouse, OP, A, and self kicks in and away you go. The "voids" that are filled in WS life by having the A and M both make us "happy" even if it is only temporary. That is why OM and I continue for over 6 years."I didn't call or write OM. Most people don't. I have no desire to see or hear from him. But if my W doesn't get off the fence in a reasonable amount of time and tell him to back off, I sure will. Also, if we end up DV, I will contact him and his W. He should not be rewarded with an opportunity to resume the A with my W, just because she's "free" and he's not."This is what I'm afraid of. You are an unknown threat to his M and could blow it apart with a phone call. I know you won't like how this sounds but I do still care for OM and it doesn't seem right (I know I am protecting him) that I tell H and open up this threat and not tell OM that it exists. I told OM when we parted that I hoped for him what I was seeking for myself, a happy life, where the voids we filled for eachother can be found in our M. I meant those words and I do want him to be happy. If I do this in the way suggested here, I feel I'd be turning on him. I know my A was me turning on my M but still, my H hurt me alot in our M before I had A and OM never intentionally hurt me. "I don't think it's reasonable for us BS's to expect the WS not to care about the OP anymore. That's being demanding. But that's also one of the very reasons for no contact."
I admire your strength. I do see why you stress no contact and believe that it is a major problem in your W's situation. She is in denial I think over OM and giving up her friendship with him. I don't agree with her but I definetely understand how she is stuck."You won't be able to avoid telling your H forever. Well, you might, but think how miserale you'll be the rest of your life for not being honest with him. And how vulnerable you will continue to be to having another A. Don't presume to know what your H will or will not understand. I actually think I understand my W's predicament a helluva lot better than she does. Mainly due to C'ing and this website. I'm certainly not in a fog now (though I was in one of my own early on, before I realized that *I* am a good person and will survive whatever the outcome of all this)."Hearing you and other BS explain how you've stuck with your M's make me see that I should not be closed to telling H. I see that it could prevent future A or more likely, getting back together with OM. I don't forsee my H coming to this site for help. He is very much the silent type which worries me. "But you have, in your own way, by telling me your perspective on your story, which is similar to my W's. This has enabled me to understand a bit more of what's going on in her mind when she won't/can't come out and tell me in her own words."I'm happy that I could offer some perspective. Don't be too hard on your W, I open up here but I don't think I'd ever be so honest with my feelings with my H. Not to be deceitful, but some of this would be cruel to expose to him or I just can't tell him because he is too close to me to want to hear about my feelings toward OM even if we are out of A."Just Learning gave me some advice about this regarding my W's insistence on the continued friendship. He said to tell her that it would be "okay" with me, if all the truth were revealed to both families and we could all agree that the friendship (which would involve them getting together while on business out of town and away from either family) would be completely harmless to our families and our M's. I'm sure he realized, even as he said that, that the whole concept is prepostrous."That is an interesting perspective. I am pretty sure that if we exposed our A to our spouses that our "plan" I told you of earlier would be ridiculous to even think about implementing. I couldn't show my face at a barbeque at OM house after his W found out. Likewise, I don't see OM and family coming to our summer picnic if my H is told. It would be an event that the police would have to come to I suspect. It seems ridiculous to even write about it! Of course we never intended to tell spouses. OM would think I was a complete maniac if I devulged to him that I was contemplating it. If I hadn't come to this site and read the BS perspective, I would have concurred with him. It does sound like a stupid idea if you don't know that it can help save M in long run.

CMiranda:"You are an unknown threat to his M and could blow it apart with a phone call. I know you won't like how this sounds but I do still care for OM and it doesn't seem right (I know I am protecting him) that I tell H and open up this threat and not tell OM that it exists."Something like this appears to be going through my W's mind right now, too. I sometimes wonder if they made some sort of "pact" not to talk about each other to their families, and she's worried OM will be angry with her for telling me. Actually, she WAS worried that OM would be angry that I found their emails, that she was that careless. I have no respect for that kind of thinking, form him or her. I don't think she cares that much for OMW, but I think that it's probably common for people in A's to dehumanize the OP's S to some degree. She's mostly worried that OM will hate her for "letting me" find out. In a way, that might actually help me get no contact from him, though. But even then, I prefer complete honesty. He'll have a lot of work to do on his own M. That will be his problem, but I'd prefer he face it than go out and have an A with someone else's W, or even to keep trying to have one with my W." If I do this in the way suggested here, I feel I'd be turning on him. I know my A was me turning on my M but still, my H hurt me alot in our M before I had A and OM never intentionally hurt me. "My W thinks I was the bulk of the problem with our M, perhaps similar to yours (though I am not an alchoholic). That's simply not true, and I've recognized more and more that it was partly rationalization to support her A. OM would, in all probability, eventually "intentionally hurt you" if you lived with him all the time. We all end up doing that, or perceivign that we're doing that, eventually, unless we remain vigilant in keeping our M alive."Hearing you and other BS explain how you've stuck with your M's make me see that I should not be closed to telling H. I see that it could prevent future A or more likely, getting back together with OM. I don't forsee my H coming to this site for help. He is very much the silent type which worries me."So was I!!! But here I am. I love my W very much, but I will admit that my patience won't last forever, nor should it."I'm happy that I could offer some perspective. Don't be too hard on your W, I open up here but I don't think I'd ever be so honest with my feelings with my H. Not to be deceitful, but some of this would be cruel to expose to him or I just can't tell him because he is too close to me to want to hear about my feelings toward OM even if we are out of A."Again, I thank you for the perspective on your situation.Oops. Got to run. I'll look at the rest of your message later.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by mom of five:
cm
I just thought I would give you something to think about. I was in a situation simialar to yours. My OM wanted to keep things a secret because his W and kids( grown) would be too angry, wife new D might be his, but they had been ignoring it. He was seeing child in secret since she was born. I got tired of it and said he had to come forward or back away forever, because this will hurt. D. HE came forward and told family, some are angry, some are very proud he was a man and owned up to his responsibility. And as much as W and I dont like each other, we work very hard to do what is right for D. Things have worked out for the best in most areas. My husband loves daughter with all his heart and is there for her no matter what. He did not leave as I thought and he thought. He treats her with the same love he does all the children. I am releived and grateful I dont have to hide any more.<hr></blockquote>Your story is inspiring. Can I be so bold as to ask if I understand a post you made previously. Did both you and H have A's? The reason I am asking is that my H as far as I know, hasn't. If what I believe is true, then question his ability to be as "reasonable" as yours has or even as I imagine I would react having been through one. It just seems to offer a different perspective to the reality of an A, both the good and the bad.
Also, how old was your D when the OM owned up to his responsibility? D must know that she was conceived of an A? If she is old enough to comprehend it's implications, how does she feel about herself?

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by maggierose:
CMiranda-I didn't have time to read all of your posts. However, I'm confused. Does your H know about the OM? Does he think this child is his and it's not? Are you still involved with OM?
My brain gets muddled trying to figure it out. Are you trying to save your marriage? Thanks for clarifying things.<hr></blockquote>
No, H does not know about or suspect OM. (at least I don't think so) He thinks our son is his biological child. Well, emotionally, I would have to be honest and say yes, I am still involved with OM but I'm working on changing that. Our A ended in my eyes about month ago but I've been on 1 business dinner with him (but I no longer work with him. Our company consolidated after 9/11, and everyone is to loose their jobs, so I left the company on my own. I met him with other business collegues to wish me farewell) We did see eachother one other time and a few phone calls. Now that I came here I'm learning of another way and have a new perspective on the friendship plan.
Yes, I want to save my M. Up until last week I truly believed I'd save M and work on relationship with my H as well as keep my beloved OM in my life as my friend. OM and I had devised a plan to remain friends and eventually incorporate our spouses into our "real friendship" that we'd create.
That is basically the story. Oh, I haven't yet mentioned anything to OM about possibly telling my H about A. He doesn't think much of this site and thinks I should not listein to any advice about cutting all ties, etc.

cm,
I have been married close to 20 years, my husband has had as many affairs and I SPENT ALL MY TIME TRYING TO BE BETTER, IF I COULD JUST BE PRETTIER OR NICER OR MORE TOLERANT, after he HAD about as many affairs as years we were married, I grew tired and dint want to try any more.
I met someone at work, he new we were having trouble and just seemed to step in and make life so much better, husband and i were seperated at the time. this OM became my best friend we did everything together including dinner with each other spouses, ugh well I got pregnant, and I thought it was husbands, ( IT WASNT) told other man the day i found out she was not my husbands. he told me to get an abortion, I said NO, he told me to put up baby for adotion, because i was ruining our lives together, i said NO. He and I parted ways he told his wife and told me good bye, He wanted nothing to do with baby, I said , your loss and good bye as well. when baby was born I let him know and he wanted to see her, so He started seeing her, every week, till I told him , he had to come forward or walk away and let D have my husband for dad, He refused to walk away so he came forward, has been difficult, daughter now knows him as daddy, but she also knows my husband as this, she loves them both and is too little too understand the difference. she is not 2 yet. Things are still tense at times, but we work very hard at this all, I couldnt say if what we handled this the right way, but I know my daughter has more people to love her, and aside from a few problems, it is going well. and I have had each person involved tell me they are grateful I didnt listen and abort. OM and husband hate each other that is biggest problem.

d was 13 months when he came forward

CMiranda:"Don't be too hard on your W, I open up here but I don't think I'd ever be so honest with my feelings with my H. Not to be deceitful, but some of this would be cruel to expose to him or I just can't tell him because he is too close to me to want to hear about my feelings toward OM even if we are out of A."Once again, this is a choice of cruelties. I think that the honesty will be appreciated by him more than the attempts to "protect" him by continuing to lie to him. And yes, not telling him something this important is a lie of omission."I am pretty sure that if we exposed our A to our spouses that our "plan" I told you of earlier would be ridiculous to even think about implementing. I couldn't show my face at a barbeque at OM house after his W found out. Likewise, I don't see OM and family coming to our summer picnic if my H is told. It would be an event that the police would have to come to I suspect. It seems ridiculous to even write about it!"Yep. This kind of vision can only come when you see gaps in the fog."Of course we never intended to tell spouses."Can't maintain the lie and do that."OM would think I was a complete maniac if I devulged to him that I was contemplating it."I think this is more an indication of his own fears and insecurities. It's cruel of him to expect you NOT to seek help for yourself, as a result of this insecurity. "If I hadn't come to this site and read the BS perspective, I would have concurred with him. It does sound like a stupid idea if you don't know that it can help save M in long run. "It also sounds like a stupid idea if you have no DESIRE to save the M in the long run, or if you actually believe that the A can continue indefinitely without affecting the M.

CMiranda:Sorry about that first quote from you. I misread it somehow. In fact, though I have told my W that I post here, I haven't shown her my posts (yet) because I'm in the position that I need her to decide our M on her own, as I've already decided by my reaction to D-day. And she still doesn't put much stock in this site or C'ling in general.

CMiranda,
What you and OM is doing is called "triangulation": making a triangle. So long as you have a relationship to each other, giving thought and energy to each other, that is the very energy and commitment drained away from your marriages. You don't have to FULLY commit yourself to your marriages, because you've got this OtherPerson hanging on the sidelines. You and OM are afraid to cut those ties and see if you can really make your marriages work. It isn't healthy.Prayers,
J

2long, ula, mom of 5, jl,wib, and, of course,
dear friends cat and tigger,Each of you deserves a giant hug for turning a horrid thread into a helping thread. I tried, in my usual sweet style [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] to shed some light on the reasons for the hostility that was being thrown at the original poster but wrote the thread off completely when I also believed it was "hijacked". So, I am amazed to see so many responses and they are even polite and helpful [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] You guys have done a tremendous job and it is wonderful to know that such sensitive, caring and persistent people are standing by on MB to guide those in need. I wish you all the same success with your personal problems ...love,
heavenly

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Jenny:
CMiranda,
What you and OM is doing is called "triangulation": making a triangle. So long as you have a relationship to each other, giving thought and energy to each other, that is the very energy and commitment drained away from your marriages. You don't have to FULLY commit yourself to your marriages, because you've got this OtherPerson hanging on the sidelines. You and OM are afraid to cut those ties and see if you can really make your marriages work. It isn't healthy.Prayers,
J<hr></blockquote>I never heard of that term "triangulation". You seem to be right on the mark with that. It isn't a conscious plan to do what you described but I have to admit, you are right. The most difficult thing for me is the huge gaping hole in my thought process which has developed over all these years. I have a very large void in my thinking process because it is so natural just to fill it with thoughts of him. I know it isn't healthy and I am really trying to stop it and change for real, not just go through the motions.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mom of five:"I couldnt say if what we handled this the right way, but I know my daughter has more people to love her, and aside from a few problems, it is going well."I am in a similar situation with regard to child. I guess you never really know for sure if you made the right decisions but all you can do is try to give your D a happy and loving family. Of course your being courageous and giving your D life is awesome despite selfish response from your ex-OM. That was my only concern was at the time I decided to raise child as my H's. I don't know how I would have handled being told by OM to have abortion. My God, that must have been so hard to deal with. Fortunately, my OM told me not to feel bad about myself or baby and we'd all be fine somehow. I guess the most important aspect of that statement is that the baby is happy and healthy and is loved and wanted with limited casualtys. That is all I could ask for and for me, keeping the secret hurts but I feel as if my needs or wants don't matter compared to keeping H and child secure and happy as well as sheltering OM. I'm at a crossroads now in trying to decide if I should take advice I've gotton here and to into couseling to determine how/if I should reveal secrets of A and paternity of my son.
How do you deal with your H and ex hating eachother?

cm,
do you have icq

cm,
I dont always handle their hate for each other well, although I understand my husbands hate for OM, I feel he should be very careful what he says and does around my daughter, he thinks I am too nice to OM. But we are talking about the man who has my baby on occasion and if I start crap with him or argue, I dont want D to have that crisis in her life, because it is not her fault.
Om hates husband because he wants him gone, I think he feels if he gets rid of him , he can just have two families. But I dont want that and it will not happen. I have been through enough. so for now.
I meet with om and sometimes with his wife as well and exchange my daughter, I welcome them in my home when they pick her up and share pictures any time I have them. Other wife is a little more selfish , but I know it is because she is insecure, she knows how close we were and she is afraid, beng involved with daughter will start A over, so I try to over look little remarks and such.
wife has even asked to pick up daughter alone and spend time with her, I am NOT ready for that and have not allowed it, and OM and husband supports my decision.
I am not in your situation so I cant say what to do, I do know that keeping it a secret hurts you as well as those you love. Some day the truth will come out and it may cause more hurt when it does. Maybe when baby is younger it would be better. But I odnt know your husband and if this would drive him away.
My husband thought baby was his at first and also told me to get an abortion, I think that hurt worse than other man telling me so. But seems he was having an affair at the same time and planning on leaving and this threw a wrench in his plans.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mom of five:Why does the secret have to come out if I choose not to tell? I admire you for your honestly but on the other hand, I don't want OM, as his situation stands today, to be involved with my son. I won't allow my child to be second to anyone and I think that is what will happen. I know how it feels to be sitting around on the sidelines waiting for OM to have time for me. He is the type who barely has time for his own kids, his W spends alot of time alone except for weekends, so my son would be competing with their time with OM. I know him well enough to believe that he can't manage another child. Am I wrong to make this decision on my own?

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Why does the secret have to come out if I choose not to tell?<hr></blockquote>

The secret HAS to come out because of at least 3 reasons. The first and foremost is that if you choose to keep this secret, you are, by omission, lying to your H about the state of your M! Do you really want your M to be built on lies? The second reason is that you are cheating your H out of deciding for himself about your M! I know it's a hard thing to think about, but he may not want to stay married due to the betrayal! But, by you keeping this all from him you are controlling his life with out him knowing. Finally, last but definately not least, you are keeping him from deciding what he wants to do about your S! He has every right to decide whether he is to be your S's Daddy or not! You keeping this secret is again deciding for him! He is not a baby that you need to "do what's best" for him! He is the only one who knows what he will do, but you have to let him decide for himself! <blockquote>quote:<hr>I don't want OM, as his situation stands today, to be involved with my son. I won't allow my child to be second to anyone and I think that is what will happen. I know how it feels to be sitting around on the sidelines waiting for OM to have time for me. He is the type who barely has time for his own kids, his W spends alot of time alone except for weekends, so my son would be competing with their time with OM. I know him well enough to believe that he can't manage another child. <hr></blockquote>Why does xOM even need to be involved in your S's life, especially if your H chooses to raise his as he has been, as his own son? Your xOM is the classic "cakeman", having his M and kids from that, and keeping you on the sidelines with your S! I can almost guarantee that's why he is telling you that this forum isn't worth it, and to stop coming here! He enjoys his life as it is, and you are ruining that for him! If you truly want to save your marriage, you need to cut all ties w/xOM! If he is not involved now, and your H decides to keep S as his own, then leave everything as it is! But, tell xOM that it is completely over, and you don't want to hear from or see him in any way again! <blockquote>quote:<hr>Am I wrong to make this decision on my own? <hr></blockquote>Yes, you are wrong to make the decission of how your M is going to be alone! You need to come clean with your H about everything! I'm not talking details and such, just about the fact that there was something wrong with your M over 6 yrs ago, and due to that, you had the A, which resulted in your S! Give him the chance to decide what he wants to do! I would also show him this site, and that he's not alone in his situation! He may be in the minority, but he is definately not alone! Also, that it can be done, either way, with or without visitation/CS! You both need to learn to work together on your M! I can't remember where I saw this, and I am going to be paraphrasing big time here, but a M should never be 50/50! It should be 100/100! And by that I mean that both the H and the W should be giving their ALL, their 100% to the marriage! You are taking that away from your H by keeping him "in the dark"!Well, I don't know if I have any more to add at this point. I hope there aren't too many typo's as I was getting kids to school, and keeping Abbi happy, and I'm generally skatterbrained right now anyway! I hope that I helped, and didn't seem to run of at the mouth(hands [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] )Tigger

CM, The missing person in your decision-making is your husband (NOT OM!!). Your spouse is suppose to be your best friend and helpmate. In recovery after an affair, you should present a united front together. Triangulation is something I learned about in couseling (highly recommend it!!)I hope you get counseling (money well spent). You can even get phone counseling from the owners of MB. There is also a chapter at the end of the book "After the Affair" by Janis Abram Spring (excellent book!) on deciding whether to tell when you are keeping one a secret (but it does not include any OC considerations!).As for your child competing with W and other kids for OM's time... I get upset thinking about it from the W's point of view. Do you not also consider how your A (and contact between OM and OC) takes away from his W and kids at home?!?!My H is military. I, the W, and our children already have second seats behind his job, by nature of military life. XOW wanted H to treat OC "just like" our children... now, unless OC LIVES WITH US, that is IMPOSSIBLE!!!!!!!!!!! The arrogance just floors me. She also expected H (just H, didn't care about how it affected our marriage or our children) to visit OC (we live far away), etc. etc. We don't have enough time with H as it is. I'm certainly not going to send him thousands of miles away to spend time alone anywhere near the woman he had an affair and child with!! Neither is that my idea of a "fun" family vacation spot!! I have nothing against the child, but there's limit to what is humanly possible or reasonable. I hope I've been of some small help.
J

CM,I thought something you said was very very important and wanted to comment on it. You said <blockquote>quote:<hr>I never heard of that term "triangulation". You seem to be right on the mark with that. It isn't a conscious plan to do what you described but I have to admit, you are right. The most difficult thing for me is the huge gaping hole in my thought process which has developed over all these years. I have a very large void in my thinking process because it is so natural just to fill it with thoughts of him. I know it isn't healthy and I am really trying to stop it and change for real, not just go through the motions. <hr></blockquote>CM, you have already won over half the battle. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] By recognizing what has and is going on within you, you are coming out of the "fog" as they say here. You are starting to realize the placing of things within your life. You are doing well CM, you really are.Just one question. Did you ever read UsedLongAgo's thread, the one I bookmarked for you about a page ago?? If you haven't please do it. I think it will help you see some other things. I cannot predict which they will be for you, but I think it will help you.God Bless,JL

CM:I hope things are going better for you. I just got back from a weekend away with my W, and can tell she's still in a fog regarding OM, but I have to hang back a bit and let her work on that herself. At least she starts IC today. I think that the advice you've been getting lately is very good. That any time and energy you devote to even just thinking about OM detracts from quality time and care you can give to your family and H. This is what my W can't see yet, even though it should be obvious to someone with an anthropology background all the way up through her M.S. degree. But I clearly LB bigtime if I try to point that out to her. Injuring her pride should be done by her, not by me, when I'm trying to make our M a safe place for her to come home to (even if it's just mentally, since OM isn't readily accessible). At the same time, we don't have the OC problem you're faced with on top of recovering from your A. I can't even imagine how hard that's going to be. Thankfully there are people here that know what you're going through. I can only comment on the things we're going through that are similar, and even based on just that, I give you a lot of credit for sticking with this thread, knowing how hard that is alone! Definitely get C'ing as soon as you can. Do it with the plan that you intend to tell your H about A and child, and you will be able to tell quickly whether the C you meet with is a good one or whether you need to find another one. Persevere!!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 2long:
[QB]CM:It's good to hear from you 2Long. "I just got back from a weekend away with my W, and can tell she's still in a fog regarding OM, but I have to hang back a bit and let her work on that herself."
You are very patient and wise to recognize that she needs to do just that. In my experience, the A had alot more to do with me and less to do with my H in regards to who we were as individuals. It took quite a while for our relationship to fall apart before the EA began, and so it will take time to repair it. "That any time and energy you devote to even just thinking about OM detracts from quality time and care you can give to your family and H. This is what my W can't see yet, even though it should be obvious to someone with an anthropology"You're absolutely correct on it taking away from H and family. If your W hasn't found out yet that an A is a state of suspension. It is as if you are mid-way to something else but you can never get there because the door to the next level is closed. How frustrating that is! So, to feel better the only way without ending M and persuing other R, was it to get off the fence so to speak. I feel so much better mentally, I can't even tell you how much. Your W must find this for herself. The "fog" lifts but then it returns, over and over again, but with less thickness. Its being able to recognize this: I feel better when I'm away from the frustrations of the A. She will in time. Education has nothing to do with this, unfortunately. "Thankfully there are people here that know what you're going through. I can only comment on the things we're going through that are similar, and even based on just that, I give you a lot of credit for sticking with this thread, knowing how hard that is alone!"I can't tell you that I wish I didn't have to face the OC aspect of my situation. I wouldn't change having him for anything in this world. He is the light of my life. Ironically, he is what brought me back to H. I seen what kind of guy he really is and what kind of guy OM is by comparison. I always thought OM was cats meow. Now I see my H in new light.
2long, I would not have stuck with this if you hadn't spoken up. You were the first one who made me realize that I'm not alone. "Definitely get C'ing as soon as you can. Do it with the plan that you intend to tell your H about A and child, and you will be able to tell quickly whether the C you meet with is a good one or whether you need to find another one."This is the kind of advice I need to hear. My ex-OM confessed to his priest 3 years ago and priest basically told him to end it with me, keep secret, and mend M. Well, he did break up with me. It lasted less than 1 month. I'm not looking for redemption, only real happiness with my H.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by mom of five:
cm,
do you have icq<hr></blockquote>What is that?

JL:
Thanks for taking the time to offer me feedback on "triangulation" as Jenny outlined. "CM, you have already won over half the battle. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] By recognizing what has and is going on within you, you are coming out of the "fog" as they say here. You are starting to realize the placing of things within your life. You are doing well CM, you really are."Thanks for the boost, I sure needed it. I'm feeling better everyday (not great but not in complete despair as I was before) that I chip away at the "triangle" that I've been living in for all these years. It gets more painful before it gets better but I think I really am seeing glimpses of daylight finally. "Did you ever read UsedLongAgo's thread, the one I bookmarked for you about a page ago?? If you haven't please do it. I think it will help you see some other things. I cannot predict which they will be for you, but I think it will help you."Yes, I did, thank you (I think) for that. It scared the hell out of me though.

CM,I am sorry it scared you. On the other hand, it is good that it did. How is that for a definite "maybe" type response. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] I guess I was hoping you would see that after all ULA's W did, he did stick with her. I was hoping you would see that not telling doesn't mean the story doesn't get told eventually for some of the strangest reasons. I was hoping you would see that in his latest posts his older son appears to be coming around.There is sooo much pain in ULA's posts, but there is such strong optimism in there as well. CM, if there is one thing you will see and learn here, it that this place is populated with people strong enough to hope and sincere enough to try. It is what makes it so addictive [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] , and so compelling.You are doing well and gradually as you continue to withdraw from OM, you will begin to see things in a new light. I think you already are from your most recent posts.Nevertheless, this is tough stuff and not for wimps. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] There is still much to accomplish in your life. God Bless,JL
PS: Is your son with OM your only child? I was never clear on that. Don't have to answer if you don't feel like it. Just curious.

Cmiranda I know that this must seem very scary to you now and all that I can do for you is assure you that in our case the marriage is going to be saved. We are closer now than ever before and are no longer hiding our feelings and emotions. Granted we do have serious concerns for our relationship with our sons but I feel that you are young enough to save yourself from the same fate by introducing truth to the children at the appropriate times under the advisement of a good counselor. 
I cannot say that if I were a younger man how I would have reacted but I did surprise even myself in my conviction to keep the M together. I feel that you are aware that there are no iron clad guarantees of success in these situations, but I see a strong desire on your part to put this part of your life behind you. Perhaps this will be enough. You are a strong woman as you have shown by admitting a need to change your life. I would encourage to give your H a chance. It may be the best thing you can do for "yourself" in the long run.I am pulling for you every day and wish you the best.God BlessUsedlongago

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Just Learning:
[QB]CM,"I guess I was hoping you would see that after all ULA's W did, he did stick with her. I was hoping you would see that not telling doesn't mean the story doesn't get told eventually for some of the strangest reasons. I was hoping you would see that in his latest posts his older son appears to be coming around."I did see all that you have hoped for me to get from his story. I am digesting it and wow it's scary."Nevertheless, this is tough stuff and not for wimps. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] There is still much to accomplish in your life."This is an understatement. 2Long gave me the nudge I needed to be one of the wimps and leave here after my baptism by fire.Yes, my son with OM is my only child.Thank you again for your words of hope.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Usedlongago:
[QB]Cmiranda Thank you ULA for your feedback. I wish I had a crystal ball. I am afraid to ruin the lives of the ones I do love the most. Sadly it took me took long to figure out that I do still love my H but I have a precious son from all of this and so I can not regret. I want to put my head in the sand so I don't know that I really am a strong woman. I'm just trying to survive. How can I put this OM behind me if I tell my H? If my H leaves me then my son will lose his real Daddy.If you could go back to a time when your life was what you thought it was, would you?

Cmiranda <blockquote>quote:<hr>If you could go back to a time when your life was what you thought it was, would you? <hr></blockquote>No because I realize now that what I was living was not in any way real, through no fault of my own. I have come to understand why I was so introverted and insecure. My W never realized that she was partialy responsible for the way I acted towards her. We both like who I am right now although we are still getting to know me. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] (I know that sounds a little out there but it is true). I also would not be as close to my sons as I have become and still would not be able to hug them and tell them that I love them.

I was living a lonely life of isolation and didn't know the joy of allowing other people to love me. Happiness means much more to me now because I know that I don't have to wait for it, it was there all along just waiting for me to enjoy it.
It has been the hardest thing I have ever done, but accepting that the past cannot be changed has allowed me to grow in my life and in our marriage. I'm sure you still feel as though you are going to hurt OM but he has already hurt you more than you realize and he should not be a factor in the equation. I know it is easy for me to say but he can only hurt you more now.Please allow your H a chance to experience all that marriage can be.It is not unusual to feel that you are not strong at times and God knows there were times that I didn't think that I was strong enough to get through another day, but I feel like I have never been stronger now. I know that you can make it.God BlessUsedlongago

ULA, CM:ULA: "Cmirandaquote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you could go back to a time when your life was what you thought it was, would you?
------------------------------------------------------------------------No because I realize now that what I was living was not in any way real, through no fault of my own. I have come to understand why I was so introverted and insecure. My W never realized that she was partialy responsible for the way I acted towards her. We both like who I am right now although we are still getting to know me. (I know that sounds a little out there but it is true). "This is so similar to the conversations my W and I had yesterday with our MC and afterwards. I haven't read your story yet, ULA, but I will try to this evening when I get time. I came away from our MC meeting feeling pretty much better than before, but surprised by one thing. My W has been saying that "I never listened" to her all those years ago when the A started, and then the MC said that when my W was spelling out her frustrations, it didn't seem like I was listening, that I was just doing the "physical contact" thing - holding her hand and stroking her back. I guess I just always have been less verbal (partly because she's SO verbal, but partly because I compose myself better if I have more time, and so don't get a word in very often when the discussion is "animated"). MC thought I was wanting to go back to when things were better just before D-day, based on how I'd brought it up (better because W had decided to focus on M on her own - I didn't know why they were better at the time). I tried to explain that I don't, but that I wanted to figure out why things worked when they did, so I could focus on those things.I am amazed at how many men have this kind of problem, and how many women have my W's frustration with it. I try to explain this to my W, but she doesn't seem to get it. In the end, I slept very strangely last night, with all kinds of odd relationship dreams, most of them depressing, and so today I'm not sure I'm going to be of much help here. My W left for the field for the next 3 days, and at least told me she'll miss me. I have to tell you, though, that I'm having one heckuva hard time figuring out at what point I'm not being attentive enough (the problem that led to the A) and at what point am I being too clingy. Tearing me apart. I guess my point is that, even in my situation, which though similar is nothing near as intense at the moment as yours, CM, I still experience some rather extreme ups and downs, and can't always tell where they're going or what it is that I want in the end.Sorry to end this on a low note.

2long,I'm not sure if I understood your last post completely but the part about you not being very verbal caught my eye.My H is also not very verbal. When in the midst of my affair my H would ask me why or what was making me do this. I told him that the OM made me feel as no one had ever made me feel before. OM would almost constantly tell me how beautiful I was, how intelligent, funny, sexy, sensitive, caring and on and on. He wrote me unbelievable love letters. These things he did almost non stop for the entire 3 yrs. My H on the other hand had never done these things even in the beginning of our relationship. My H's reply was " I guess I just don't have a silver tongue but it doesn't mean that I don't think those things." Now, a little while ago I posted that all my H has wanted from me now is to hug and kiss him for no reason, be happy to see him when he gets home from work, make him feel like I am happy to be with him, etc. I can't remember if it was pops or JL who couldn't believe that this was all he wanted from me after the A. It got me to thinking about it too. But now I see that those are the things that are important to him because he isn't a very verbal person. I guess for him actions speak louder than words.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tigger4jdt:
"Yes, you are wrong to make the decission of how your M is going to be alone! You need to come clean with your H about everything!" Tigger4, You have given me some very concrete advice, thank you. I feel that I can tell H about A but I'm still undecided about S. I know revealing A will create questions in his mind about S, so I can see where both would need to be revealed at the same time. If my H decides to leave me then he might decide to leave our S. Although I don't think he would because he loves him so very much. Then OM would possibly come into my S life. That is my worry, not that OM is a bad person but I don't want a part time father for my child. That is why I chose to raise him with my H. Even if OM divorced, as he and I discussed, he already had a family and responsibilites to them. It wasn't what I wanted for my child then and it still isn't. My H really loves our S and is a great father. I'm afraid to ruin that, not for myself, but for my S."Why does xOM even need to be involved in your S's life, especially if your H chooses to raise his as he has been, as his own son? Your xOM is the classic "cakeman", having his M and kids from that, and keeping you on the sidelines with your S! I can almost guarantee that's why he is telling you that this forum isn't worth it, and to stop coming here! He enjoys his life as it is, and you are ruining that for him! If you truly want to save your marriage, you need to cut all ties w/xOM! If he is not involved now, and your H decides to keep S as his own, then leave everything as it is! But, tell xOM that it is completely over, and you don't want to hear from or see him in any way again!"Somehow your words got through to me about OM . I thought about what you said about him enjoying his life as it is and I do believe you are right on. In my blindness I forgot about him telling me several years ago that he did in fact like things as they are and he didn't want to change. I actually forgot about it until now. I spent the last 24 hours looking back in my minds eye and I have gotten really angry & disgusted at OM. I do wonder now if he just told me what he needed to in order to keep me in his life. I never thought he was lying to me until I read your post. I haven't told him all the principals here or that I was posting or getting feedback that I should tell H everything. I just told him that we should cut all contact. He didn't agree obviously. Why won't he let me go? What is the cakeman profile? Does that mean he wants life his way and to hell with the rest of us?

CM,Yes, the OM can lie. The exOM in my situation would tell me my sons would be fine if I divorced my H. That he himself came from a divorced family and had little contact with his father and turned out fine. Then when I told him I was pregnant and was staying with my H he went up one side of me and down the other about how I was going to ruin my daughters life by not letting her be able to grow up with her "real" mommy and daddy. I called him on it and reminded him of all the times he told me my sons would fine. Know what he said? "I would have told you anything to get you." So yes, they do lie.

WIB & 2long,I don't recall if it was I that said something about all your H wanted, WIB. But, I will offer you something that I read in a book one day. The book was about men and had some title I thought was fun: Men Made Easy, or something like that.In any event, in there the author made an interesting point. The point was that women often don't let men answer or join in the conversations. Yet, they then claim they won't talk.The point and suggestion were the following. Men don't usually talk about their feelings. Lot of reasons for that many of them good. Nevertheless, they don't. So when a time comes where they SHOULD be talking about their feelings, they haven't formulated the words to express what they feel. It isn't done often.Her suggestion was/is to ask him a question and then sit and wait for him to answer. It may take a minute or more, but just wait for him to answer.
Sounds easy doesn't it??? You both have children as do I, ever ask you child a question about school work?? They don't really know the answer off the top of their head, but they probably do know it, they just don't think about it. What you find is often you get impatient and answer the question yourself and then move on to explaining what they didn't know. The waiting is very hard and not often done.Over the years here I have offered this advice to a variety of women who complain that there H's won't talk. It seems to work often. I have thought about this a bit, and my conclusion is that it is simply a matter of practice. Many (not all women) talk with each other about their feelings, it is a common topic. So, the speech patterns, the thoughts, the connections are already primed. Men, don't talk about the subject of feelings very often, so while they know what they feel, they cannot put words to it easily.I would suspect that 2long felt things when his D-day came that it has taken a long time for him to articulate, if he ever has. His W probably doesn't really want to hear how she has hurt him.WIB, I'll bet it took a while to put into words what you felt when you found out you were pregnant by OM. My guess is CM is in the same situation.These are not common occurances and it takes awhile to describe what is felt. One, often sees it on this board. People trying to write what they feel about a situation, no matter what side of an issue they are on, and having a hard time making themselves clear (thank God for those little faces, they help). People are often misinterpretted. Actually, more in this particular section of the MB site than any other.
These are not very common experiences and very very emotionally trying.So, WIB try this exercise on your H. When you ask him something about his feelings let him have a lot of time to answer. My bet is if you asked something about fixing things or carpentry he comes right back with an answer. He practices that.2Long, talk to your W about the same thing. Tell her when she asks a question to give you time to answer. I do that with my W now.CM, pay attention to this (whether I am right or wrong) communications between you and your H is going to be really tested and probably already needs to improve no matter what you decide. You need to be really really aware of both your H's and your capabilities here.One last thought about how well the OM communicate. I was a batchelor into my 30's. I had no trouble communicating with women, but there was no risk. I have a much harder time with my W and we talk all of the time. Why? Well, when you love someone or are deeply enmeshed in their life it seems much harder to say the honest things, and it doesn't seem right to try and snow them either.Do you see what I mean??? When it is casual, it is much easier to do the romantic things. When you are living life with them, it seems somehow harder. Heck, when I buy flowers for my W "just because", I usually get the "what do you want?" look or even question or "what did you do?" look. Yet, I have never cheated, or pushed her for anything. Interesting how marriage changes things. IF I were not married to her, she would accept them as a "romantic" token of my esteem.So to wrap up something that became much longer than it should have. Pay attention to communications especially when the subject isn't one that both are familiar. (Just remember that men usually don't have much trouble talking about their favorite subjects: football, hobbies, etx. Feelings is usually NOT one of their favorite subjects. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] God Bless,JL

WIB: "My H is also not very verbal. When in the midst of my affair my H would ask me why or what was making me do this. I told him that the OM made me feel as no one had ever made me feel before. OM would almost constantly tell me how beautiful I was, how intelligent, funny, sexy, sensitive, caring and on and on."I got something like this from my W after D-day. It really hurt me to the core, until I read how common this is. He has the advantage that he doesn't have to be "real" with my W when he's with her or communicating with her. My wife has often said, particularly in the past year or so that "you can love someone until you have to live with them." My reaction to that was always to express hurt or at best try to come up with some answer related to the "reality" of daily life as opposed to the A, but I often feel like I don't get much mileage with that. "He wrote me unbelievable love letters."My W has said that she's got a couple of love letters from/to OM dating back several years. She offered to show them to me when she was screaming at me about 2 months ago about my checking her emails. I told her I didn't need to see them. What I'd actually like, now, or sometime in the not-to-distant future, is to see her destroy them, along with any and all mention of him on her computer, any reports they've worked on together (I actually helped with one of these after her first PA with him! - not knowing about it of course). Basically, remove the guy from our lives entirely. She probably won't agree to anything like this, at least not anytime soon."These things he did almost non stop for the entire 3 yrs. My H on the other hand had never done these things even in the beginning of our relationship. My H's reply was " I guess I just don't have a silver tongue but it doesn't mean that I don't think those things." "I did a lot of this when we were dating. I was away at school when we started dating, for a quarter. 2 hrs away, so we saw each other every weekend when I came home. But I wrote letters to and received letters from her every day. We wrote pretty mushy things to each other, and I ususally put a favorite quote from the Bible on the envelope flap for her to read, then colored the envelopes in gawdy colors (spent a good hour each night on them - maybe this is why I didn't do that well as an Astronomy major!). Once I moved back after that quarter and changed my major, we saw each other every day for the next year before we were married, so we didn't write, we talked. A LOT. Throughout our M, I just got quieter and quieter, I guess, modulated by surprises that she was apparently so unhappy for the past 12 years (surprises to me, because although she told me of her attraction to OM, she took my stupid reaction that "as long as there's no sex, it's not an affair" as meaning that I didn't care about her!). Yesterday, she actually told our MC and me that the first 15 years of our M were actually pretty good for her. First time I heard that, really. In the same session, however, she repeated the "I never wanted to be married" and "I wasn't ready for a physical relationship with 2long 27 years ago" comments. So, I continue to flop around like a fish out of water, trying to figure out what she REALLY needs from me NOW.

WIB:Forgot to respond to your first comment about compliments from your H. I did that too early on. I've been doing it a lot again, since D-day. I feel awkward at times doing it, knowing that that was apparently one of the things she liked about OM. Also feel bad when she says it's too much. Again, trying hard to find the right balances, and not getting enough of the right feedback, or not reading it well.

JL: Your post seems to hit so close to home with me that I'm tempted to copy and paste it into an email to my W, but I don't think I will (based on my previous experiences with trying to "educate her" with MB principles)."WIB & 2long,In any event, in there the author made an interesting point. The point was that women often don't let men answer or join in the conversations. Yet, they then claim they won't talk."BINGO! At least, that's the way I feel. My W probably feels that I'm not listening, or that I don't care. And NOW, she has the MC seeming to agree with her! I guess this is why I'm so down now, even though things overall appear okay between us."The point and suggestion were the following. Men don't usually talk about their feelings. Lot of reasons for that many of them good. Nevertheless, they don't. So when a time comes where they SHOULD be talking about their feelings, they haven't formulated the words to express what they feel. It isn't done often."Yep. Absolutely."You both have children as do I, ever ask you child a question about school work?? They don't really know the answer off the top of their head, but they probably do know it, they just don't think about it."You were there? [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] "What you find is often you get impatient and answer the question yourself and then move on to explaining what they didn't know. The waiting is very hard and not often done."Bingo, again. This is exactly what my W does to me."Over the years here I have offered this advice to a variety of women who complain that there H's won't talk. It seems to work often. "This is worth a try in our situation. I will think about how to broach the subject with my W."I would suspect that 2long felt things when his D-day came that it has taken a long time for him to articulate, if he ever has. His W probably doesn't really want to hear how she has hurt him."That's for sure. She also tends to think my changes are fake, or won't last. I can't reassure her, and that makes continuing with Plan A hard for me, knowing she doesn't always believe I can keep up this new behavior forever. I think I can, and I think so because going back to the past is so unthinkable to me. I've at least gotten her to recognize that. My problem with her primarily is that she doesn't believe that I will ever trust her again, and she doesn't think that she trusts me to have fundamentally changed, because 11 years is such a long time."These are not very common experiences and very very emotionally trying."And I am exhausted daily. So is my W, and because her perspective on what's happened is so different from mine (11 years to adjust, versus 3 months), she'd rather take it "one day at a time" whereas I'd rather wear myself out all day every day until I understand everything."2Long, talk to your W about the same thing. Tell her when she asks a question to give you time to answer. I do that with my W now."I will."Do you see what I mean??? When it is casual, it is much easier to do the romantic things. When you are living life with them, it seems somehow harder."Hence my W's "you can love someone until you have to live with them" comment. Your way of putting it just now was a lot less antagonistic, however."Heck, when I buy flowers for my W "just because", I usually get the "what do you want?" look or even question or "what did you do?" look. Yet, I have never cheated, or pushed her for anything. Interesting how marriage changes things. IF I were not married to her, she would accept them as a "romantic" token of my esteem."I get funny looks, or even disgusted, tired looks, when I give my W flowers, and they come from our own garden and I pick them myself! Before we were M'd, I used to bring her those small potted cacti. She loved that, because it was so unique. I'd do that again, but I think she told me that it wouldn't mean the same these days as it did then.

2long,I realize now that telling my H the things OM was telling me must have hurt him terribly but at the time I said it I was in the fog and trying to justify what I was doing. As far as the letters and cards from the OM go, they were burned by me in our wood stove a long time ago. I never showed them to my H.My H started telling me things towards the end of my A like how wonderful I was and how I am the one person that keeps this family going and they would all be nothing without me. He stopped saying those things though after I ended the A. I used to feel like he stopped saying them because he knew he had "won" but I know how he feels about me and I don't need to be swept off my feet everyday.JL,
I know, I know. I need to work on communication. I guess I just see how uncomfortable he gets when he has to talk about anything personal and I don't like to push it. But I would love it if he did talk so I won't give up on it.
2long and JL, I haven't gotten flowers since the A ended period, so I don't know how I'd react.[ April 10, 2002: Message edited by: want it back ]

WIB:
"I realize now that telling my H the things OM was telling me must have hurt him terribly but at the time I said it I was in the fog and trying to justify what I was doing."Add to this my W's tendency to blurt things out, often times in such a way as to sound very hurtful to most lifeforms on this planet (when some other, kinder way would get the point across just as well, like my quote from her about being able to love someone until you have to live with them), and you see where I've been for the past 11 years, and where I still am now, in many ways. There are many ways to communicate things you feel, but I think too often my W appears to try to make her point in as biting a way, just to get it across. Guess she thinks I won't listen if she isn't blunt. What she doesn't realize is that, if I can't help her change that behavior, I'll quit our M. It hurts too much, particularly now I'm hurting since D-day."As far as the letters and cards from the OM go, they were burned by me in our wood stove a long time ago. I never showed them to my H."I'd like to do this. Hm... I may be tempted to buy her a new laptop as an upgrade, then pour hot coffee on the old one before all the files can be transferred.... Nah!"My H started telling me things towards the end of my A like how wonderful I was and how I am the one person that keeps this family going and they would all be nothing without me. He stopped saying those things though after I ended the A. I used to feel like he stopped saying them because he knew he had "won" but I know how he feels about me and I don't need to be swept off my feet everyday.""Hm. I wonder if I'll do something like this, and I wonder if that's what my W is worried will happen. I started saying more of the wonderful stuff to her after D-day, though I firmly believe that I said them before as well (or else why would her friends all have been telling her that our M was "perfect"?). I love her very much, but I'm getting pretty tired. Not tired enough to give up yet, though.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by want it back:
WIB,
Was your xOM single or M? Were you in love with him when you decided to stay with H?

CM,
xOM was single (divorced). Looking back now I'm not sure I was ever truly in love with him although it certainly felt like it at the time. So for the sake of argument I have to say that yes, I felt I was still in love with him at the time I ended the A. I did not end it because I no longer felt in love with him, I ended it because of other realizations I had made. I realized that I did love my H and we had a much longer history together than I had with the OM. We had been through much more together than I had with the OM. We also had a family together that I wanted very badly to preserve. I had also begun to seriuosly question whether the relationship I had with the OM could survive the realities of day to day life. I wasn't so sure I could make it work with him in that context, however I knew I could make it work with my H.I know you have very big concerns about hurting people right now and I definately understand that.
I'm the kind of person who never says no to anyone asking me for a favor, no matter how inconvenient it is to me, because I don't want to hurt thier feelings. I did not want to hurt the OM but it was unavoidable. Then on top of that, a few weeks later I had to tell my H that I was pregnant( Not only did I know that this would kill him but I also knew there was the possibility of him kicking me out). Then I had to tell the OM that I was pregnant but I was still staying with my H. It seemed as if everytime I turned around I was causing someone unbearable pain. The best thing I did was have no contact with the OM after I told him I was pregnant until my daughter was born. It was not long before days would go by without me even thinking about him. Knowing I made the right decision helped tremendously. You need to get past all the ugly stuff to get to a good place again. If you don't then you live with the constant fear of having to go through it eventually and that is no way to live.

CM,I'm sorry I didn't relpy sooner. I was looking to see if I could find the thread on the GQII board about "cakeman" but after searching off and on all day, I couldn't find it. From what I understand, it's basically like "having your cake and eating it too". Your xOM has his W and kids, but he is also holding on to you and your R! He could just be using your S as a way to keep you around! He doesn't want to let that go, and that's why he is "warning you off" of this site! Deep down, he knows that your R is wrong, but he doesn't want to loose the ability to "eat his cake"! I know that this is a hard one for you, but I still think that when(not if) you come clean with your H, you need to come clean about EVERYTHING! You owe it to your H to give him the whole truth, and let him decide where to go from there! Even after our initial D-day, both Sailorman and I were still keeping secrets from eachother, and it just made it that much harder to start down the road to recovery! But, once we came clean, it was like the weight of the world was lifted from our shoulders! Think about it. Can you truly head down the road to recovery if you are still keeping a secret, one that I feel is almost bigger than the A itself! At least then, after you "tell all" you can start with a clean slate, nothing to hide from your H! Think how much easier that will be for both of you to rebuild your M!Ok, I'm going to get off my soapbox now. Maybe we should start a new thread off of this one, so we can keep track of all the new growth you've had since coming here. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] Love,Tigger

CM:I just wanted to check in and see how things are going for you? I've been away trying to fathom some unfathomable things my W and our MC have been telling me this week, so I lost track there.Hope all is progressing!

2long:
How are things with you and W?
I've been on a rollercoaster lately. I've felt paralyzed and in the past when I feel this way, I do nothing. I know that I have to do something. Although still in WD, I have been trying hard at home with H. Maybe I'm trying to get myself in a position where H is happy so when/if I tell him, he won't feel so hopeless and hurt as you and others tell about. Does that make sense? I did decide to do something else. Many people here said not to do this but my gut instinct said I had to do it. Mainly because my son is involved. I called OM and I explained in alot more detail about his site and what it has done to help me see there is a way out of this. He told me that he has had 2 1/2 years to prepare for it so he doesn't need any help. 2 1/2 yrs ago he broke up with me and although we ended up back together it was at that time that we made a pact of no divorces would take place and eventually we'd just be friends. I had gotten pregnant after that pact was made and for me I became more confused all around so my progress toward the "end" was not so great. Anyway, I went on and explained what you all have advised, and that I was looking for a MC and in very serious consideration of telling H about him and biology of son. While I am not looking for his approval, in my heart I felt I needed to tell him since it potentially will affect him and his family. He told me that he wouldn't try to tell me what to do and that I had to decide for myself. He didn't try to convince me not to and that shocked me. He said that if my H doesn't react as I hope, then his W will probably find out and he has no doubt she will leave him. 2long, I did not fall back, I said something that even surprised myself considering I wanted to marry this man at one time. I told him of all the people here who initially thought they'd leave too and didn't. That he may be surprised and that if he wanted to be happy and make M better, he would consider telling his W too. I know to people here that may seem like such a trival step or maybe not even count toward Recovery, but for me, it was HUGE because I believed it. I told my H that I loved him lastnight for the first time in a long time and I really meant it. That is all for now, sorry not to report better progress.

CM,I realize this is Fri and heading toward the weekend so I thought I would respond because others may not until next week. While I don't think it is the best idea to talk with your OM, I think you are making very good progress.It seems to me in this reading he is still trying to control you, by mentioning that his W may leave him. She might. Your response is very true, HE DOESN'T KNOW what she will do. It is a risk.I think your realize that if you tell your H there is a risk as well. Anyone that would tell you that there is no risk of your H leaving is being very very foolish. Your betrayal of him is pretty complete and I know you realize this.That is of course the point isn't it? If things were to stay like they are YOU will never know if your H loves you or not. You will never really ever be able to share with him even the joys of raising a child because you will always know that he doesn't know that this child is not his.The only real light is probably honesty, but where it leads you is anyone's guess. One of men's deepest fears is that a child might no be his. Not that he cannot raise such a child, it is done via remarriages all of the time. It is just the betrayal part.I think you did a good job telling him you love him. But, only if YOU mean it. From now on whatever you tell him, it had better be the truth. If you do love him, tell him. Build up those love units. If you are mad at him, tell him. Talk with him about it. Interestingly, people well sense honesty better sometime via the unpleasant things that are told than the pleasant.I sense that you are getting stronger. You are beginning to face what has happened. As you do, I suspect you will do what is best for you, your H, and your child. Make no mistake there is a risk that things may not turn out as you would wish. But, also remember that things will turn out and this will pass once you face it.You are doing well CM. Keep up the good work.God Bless,JL

CM:Thanks very much for asking! Things are going well, when I look at how we interact and also when I look at our situation as objectively as I can. But emotionally, I'm still pretty uncertain. For a summary of what's going on right now, check out Freshstart's thread at http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=8&t=009102 (I hope I did that right!). But my W is still a wonderful person, and I get hugs when I tell her I'd like nothing more in this world than to spend the rest of my life with her. I'm just not convinced yet that, based on some of the things she says, our M is the right thing for her, and I also want what's right for her.It sounds like JL is giving you the best advice I've heard lately right now. I do urge you to tell your H, don't even think about not telling him. But if you haven't gotten an IC lined up yet, by all means get one as soon as possible. They've literally saved my M already, by stopping me from reacting rather than responding with care. persevere, you're worth it!