CM: "If I can make my relatinship better with H in doing so then I think I could find the courage somehow. But the children are a very big concern for me. "<p>All the more reason to talk to a good C as soon as possible. NOW would not be too soon! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I have a good friend with M problems. He's been in C the past 6 months (no A, but other problems). He says that 1 session a week should be the MINIMUM, and that he prefers 2/week. I have had 2 in a week, but for the most part they average out to 1/week. I meet with 2 separate IC's and my W and I meet with an MC together (but not often enough, in my opinion). I'm still trying to get her to meet regularly with an IC for herself.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by CMiranda:
[QB][/QB]<hr></blockquote><p>I can't tell where your quotes leave off and your responses start, but I waded through it and see where you apologized for being a snot and now I have to apologize for my sarcastic and stupid counterattack. I thought you were just here to be unpleasant and to incite disharmony. After reading some of your responses to the wise gentleman who was kind enough to look beyond the barbs, I admit I also see that you are dealing in a struggle within.<p>It seems I spend a lot of time here lately playing guardian at the gate looking out for insensitive OP's spoiling for a fight and I have become hypersensitive to attacks against the members here who are in raw pain. So, try to bear in mind I really didn't believe you or think you wanted help, just absolution and to stir things up with rude remarks. Again, if I am wrong, I apologize.<p>So, I guess I was a hypocrite. I was just as rude and judgmental as you were and I should know better. <p>Since you are really here to find your way back to your marriage, I'm here for you, too.<p>Catnip =^^=

CM, I am going to have to leave the advice up to the others as I am just too close to this situation to be impartial. It was me two years ago defending my OM and our relationship just as you are now. I had ALL the same feelings that you are speaking of. I defended what I was doing and feeling to my H(who knew of the A), to my sisters, parents, friends and anyone else who tried to tell me it would pass. Well it did pass and now all I feel is shame and stupidity and embarassment over how I acted. I guess all I want to do is take you by the shoulders and shake some sense into you, but having once been where you are now I know that wouldn't work. Try to listen to the advice you will recieve here. If you want to save your marriage it will not be easy or fun or quick. It is a lot of hard work.

WIB:<p>I think your advice might be very helpful to CM here, because of your similar situations.<p>I guess I felt some sort of empathy for her situation because it (and yours, now) reminds me of what my WW is going through now. When she sent a very personal (IMO, she disagreed) email to OM on my birthday last month without telling me (I found it when he replied), I blew my snooping "cover" by telling her when she called me that afternoon. I had been about to send her and OM an email telling her to stay away from me and him to stay away from her. Basically, politely telling them to both get their heads out of their a$$3$ and focus their energies on their families from now on. My IC stopped me from sending the email, and though the ride has been pretty bumpy at times since then, I'm so very glad that I still have my W home with me and our kids (damn, I'm getting teary eyed again!). I've kept the email on my computer, but I have not told her about it or how close I came to just calling off our M right then and there.<p>Basically, the situation is that up to very recently, my W has defended OM and her "friendship" with him pretty much above her own M and family (on the day of the email discovery, she yelled at BOTH me and my D when we both told her independently that any kind of R with him would never work). No offense CM, but your defense of your R with your MM sounded very similar to my W's (which may have been why I responded with such anger at first, and I'm very sorry that I did). <p>She is getting a little more of what I think of the situation from me without me LBing (I think), and does recognize what my IC says as being sound advice (that if I focus on our M, and things improve because of it, OM will become a non-issue), making sense to her. I will need to talk to her more with time about what "non-issue" means to me, which is no contact forever, period. But it has to be her choice, not my demand. I don't want to drive her away from me and toward him for comfort by being demanding, when things are improving between us and our R is sometimes just plain more wonderful than it's ever been, just because I can't get this OM out of my head. The fog (and that s**t is REAL, believe me) is showing signs of starting to really lift, and so if I wait (painful, to be sure) for her to come out of it on her own, we'll have a much better chance at truly beginning recovery. And yes, I don't think we're really in recovery yet, because until she severs contact completely with OM, she's still in denial, in my view.<p>This is hard. It's been hard, it's going to be hard. It's going to be long. But hang in there, the end results, whether it be a stronger M or a stronger YOU, will be worth the work you put into it.

I found out about a week ago.We're not married but we've been together 7 years. We live together and have 3ds.I love him desperately but he cheats on me over and over again. Please give me some advice in what to do. Should I leave or stay the OW is keeping the OC.I really wish she would terminate because then I know I would stay,But I'm always the one telling everyone to leave.Please someone help.He lies and says the don't mess with each other but I know their still together.What could I do.I'm hurting so bad and I have a 5month old baby.Help me PLease.

WIB,<p>Isn't frustrating to see how something will very like go, or perhaps its potential and NOT be able to make the other person see what is so evident??<p>CM, I have only one real recommendation for you. Listen to WIB and to 2long. THey are giving you good advice. And when you want to know the real nitty gritty, Catnip, is a good one to listen to. She won't blow any smoke your way, as you can tell from her posts to you.<p>Keep thinking about this CM. As simple as things sound, there is some very sound and fundamental logic being applied to these situations. It isn't pain free but the MB approach is effective.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by CMiranda:
<strong>... the children are a very big concern for me.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>The bottom line, I believe, is that innocent children are of concern to everyone who posts here... [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Nobody here can bring CM out of the fog, that is something only she can do.I don't believe that she will be able to do it until she has seen her H's pain and felt the responsibility for that pain. Heck, I saw my H's pain and it still took me almost 3 yrs to wake up. CM has expressed her concern of mourning the OM first before she tells her H. Bad idea IMO. She hasn't had do deal with the ramifications of her actions in the real world yet and until she does I don't see the fog going anywhere. She needs to get a good book such as Surviving an Affair from this site,read it, then have it ready for her H to read when she tells him. And she needs to do it soon. He is at a terrible disadvantage by being in the dark.

WIB:<p>"Nobody here can bring CM out of the fog, that is something only she can do.I don't believe that she will be able to do it until she has seen her H's pain and felt the responsibility for that pain. Heck, I saw my H's pain and it still took me almost 3 yrs to wake up."<p>This is very sobering to me, because of the similarities between my W's A and yours and CMs. My W is very intelligent, making the fog particularly thick so that I don't even think the hot sun can effectively burn it off. Even when things are going pretty well between us, I fear that it's only that way because we manage to avoid the sensitive subjects. No, my W has definitely NOT felt my pain, even though she's seen me in agony (mostly around D-day). She's too busy with her current job to have time to feel much of anything. <p>"CM has expressed her concern of mourning the OM first before she tells her H. Bad idea IMO."<p>The only way to deal with this is to bring it all out in the open as quickly as possible, making sure that contact with OM has ceased and won't resume. CM will have a very hard time keeping her M together after such a long and intense A. ...see, now *I'm* getting apprehensive again about my own situation!<p>"She hasn't had do deal with the ramifications of her actions in the real world yet and until she does I don't see the fog going anywhere. She needs to get a good book such as Surviving an Affair from this site,read it, then have it ready for her H to read when she tells him. And she needs to do it soon. He is at a terrible disadvantage by being in the dark."<p>I really do hope that CM reads and considers your post, WIB. Hard truths are sometimes too hard to accept, but coming from someone in a similar position, they need to be recognized for their true value. Though my situation appears also to be similar, I'm on the other side of the fence, and so I sometimes feel like I'm placating my W just to keep her from leaving. <p>Sorry to be so downbeat this morning. I didn't sleep all that well last night. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]

That's because you were up too late posting on GQII. I was just reading them.

WIB:<p>Yep, you're right. I did stay up too late. Maybe I'm putting too much time into this forum lately. I get a lot out of it, for the most part, and chiming in when I think I can help has really picked me up at times. <p>Work and sleep need to be factored in somewhere, too, though.

2long,
I just read your signature. I hadn't realized that your d-day was so recent. My poor H put up with it for almost 3 yrs. Just keep sounding your fog horn, your W will find you again. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

WIB:<p>Gawd, I hope so! My W is(was) truly a wonderful person. If she weren't, I wouldn't care, since the A and "illicit friendship" lasted so damned long. Under even somewhat lesser circumstances, I wouldn't put much hope in our recovery. The prospect of a 3-year fog is pretty daunting. I don't think I'll stay quiet and "loving" that long. I would definitely contact OM and OMW myself, to try to put a stop to this "friendship" from the other side. Just Learning had some great advice, which I passed on to her in a "heated discussion" (not really an argument) about a week and a half ago:<p>W: I'll always care about OM as a friend. You can't expect us not to communicate and see each other as friends.<p>Me: Okay, but if it's going to be a friendship, you won't mind if I tell OM that I know about your A, and HE won't mind if I contact his W and tell her about your A. Get it all out on the table so that we can all move forward with honesty and trust you together out of town.<p>She got quiet after that one, then we "discussed" therapy. W said something goofy about "therapists can't really help you at all. You have to help yourself." To which I replied, "but you are too close to the problem yourself to see it objectively, so you NEED to talk to an outside party about it." She disagreed, so I said "I give up." By that I mean, if she won't work on our M, then I WILL give up at some point and separate. <p>Later, when we were snuggling and talking about things we'd miss about each other (I loved that thread last week on the forum), at one point she said that she sometimes worries that when she comes home from out of town, she might find me packed up and moved out without saying anything. I think I said something like "I'd let you know if I was going to do that. I wouldn't just leave." Let her simmer on that one for a while. (not to be mean, but to try to get her to take this seriously, like I do).

2long, The lifting of the fog is a gradual process. I know, it would be nice if it happened overnight. I think it is the good things that happen between the spouses during this gradual process that enable the BSs to hang on as long as they do. I know in my situation that not all of the 3 yrs were horrible. There were periods of time when that fog lifted just enough to return to the old me and we actually had some pretty terrific times. Then it would roll back in again. But a funny thing happens at a certain point. That fog rolls away and it never comes back. Keep the faith.

WIB:<p>Is your story posted somewhere on the forum? I'd hate to make you repeat painful history for my benefit here. But I am curious, and CM's "wounds" are really just starting to open, as mine are.<p>Thanks in advance

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by catnip:
<strong><p>I can't tell where your quotes leave off and your responses start, but I waded through it and see where you apologized for being a snot and now I have to apologize for my sarcastic and stupid counterattack. I thought you were just here to be unpleasant and to incite disharmony. After reading some of your responses to the wise gentleman who was kind enough to look beyond the barbs, I admit I also see that you are dealing in a struggle within.<p>It seems I spend a lot of time here lately playing guardian at the gate looking out for insensitive OP's spoiling for a fight and I have become hypersensitive to attacks against the members here who are in raw pain. So, try to bear in mind I really didn't believe you or think you wanted help, just absolution and to stir things up with rude remarks. Again, if I am wrong, I apologize.<p>So, I guess I was a hypocrite. I was just as rude and judgmental as you were and I should know better. <p>Since you are really here to find your way back to your marriage, I'm here for you, too.<p>Catnip =^^=</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I can't tell you thank you enough for your apology. I can see why you had the impression that I was here to make life more miserable for those who seemed so full of anger toward people like me. Likewise, my anger for alot of years was toward my H and BS of OM, even om at times. I was very defensive and I still am somewhat but I'm trying to have an open mind and my feelings are beginning to change.
I do understand that you are in a difficult position being on the other side. I don't know if you can accept this from me, but the truth is, as the ow for so long, I wished I could have been "in the dark" and was envious that my om protected his w so diligently. I got the truth and she was sheltered. You see, the pain of an A escapes not one of us catnip. As 2long told me yesterday, trying to manage 2 intimate relationships is insane. I see now that I've been away from it for a few weeks that it really does go against the grain of being human. At least that is my brain's take on it. My heart still has to catch up and really believe I have to let him go completely.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> <hr></blockquote>My first reaction is if your relationship is so wonderful what is your un-obligated SM doing having a relationship with someone else? Is he afraid of his responsibilities to child, is that what keeps him with you?<p>CMiranda,
Good question...I am not implying that things did not go wrong in our relationship, that would be foolish of me. What I am saying is that the on again off again relationship he shared with these women was about one thing: money. I dared to believe him at first but have since come to see through both their stories and his that this is in fact true. From both ow I get that he only spewed words of love when he needed something from them, at times when we were hard up for money they provided and he took it. Yes sex was involved, but not a primary reason, but how many men will turn down free a**? [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>SO is not obligated to do anything for my child yet he continues to do so, and has made it very clear to me as I have to him, that children can be raised by one parent. He says he is one of the few people in the world who is capable of walking out of any situation without feeling the emotion, self-proclaimed stone he says. So no, to answer your question he is not with me out of obligation. If he felt obligated then he would be feeling the same for her would he not? As it is, he has chosen no contact with her despite her situation..not saying a lot for the obligation thing????<p>Furthermore, I realize that you have been on both sides of the fence here but it seems to me that if you were leaning at all it would be toward the ow side, you may have been a bs but you certainly didn't learn anything when you were. JMHO.<p>Bridgette

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by want it back:
<strong>CM, I am going to have to leave the advice up to the others as I am just too close to this situation to be impartial. It was me two years ago defending my OM and our relationship just as you are now. I had ALL the same feelings that you are speaking of. I defended what I was doing and feeling to my H(who knew of the A), to my sisters, parents, friends and anyone else who tried to tell me it would pass. Well it did pass and now all I feel is shame and stupidity and embarassment over how I acted. I guess all I want to do is take you by the shoulders and shake some sense into you, but having once been where you are now I know that wouldn't work. Try to listen to the advice you will recieve here. If you want to save your marriage it will not be easy or fun or quick. It is a lot of hard work.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>(Forgive me if you receive 2 responses to this, I submitted my 1st but got an error, I don't know if it will surface)
I need someone like yourself who has felt what I'm feeling now and got past it. I desperately want what you have found. Please don't write me off.
I am completely torn and if it is fog as everyone here refers to it, then I'm in it and can't find my way out. I'm a fairly logical person and my head tells me to behave my way out in the manner I should have been living my life with my H all the time my A was going on. But it's just the motions of a happy life. My heart is blind and can't or won't help me find my way out.

Unfortunately my story is scattered throughout this forum like dust in the wind. Bits and pieces everywhere so I will recap.
I am 38, my H is 40. We have been married for 14 yrs. We have 2 sons ages 12 and 13, and an 11 month old daughter who was the result of my affair.
My A started in the summer of 97 with a man from work and officially ended in Sept. of 2000. It started as an EA. After I realized what was happening I went to my H and told him that I had feelings for another man and I asked him to go to counseling with me.(So essentially my H knew from the beginning). We talked alot and My H thought that this was something we could deal with on our own without counseling. Wrong. EA turned PA and for 3 years I waffled back and forth between my H and OM. I did all the awful things and said all the hateful things but as I said before, there were times when that fog lifts and then comes back. Finally in Sept. 00 I had the opportunity to stay at a friends house for 5 days while they were out of town. It was during this separation from my H that the fog lifted for good. It had been going in that direction for some time but the separation drove it home for me. I ended the A for good and went back home. It was shortly after that I found out I was pregnant. That in itself was a roller coaster ride. It has not been until these last several months that things have really started to get good for us again, but we had a lot of things to overcome that are not present in your situation. <p> The fog is just what it sounds like and you can not convince anyone who is in that fog that it exists. Everything is distorted, and things that would normally be so obvious to this person are lost on them. I absolutely marvel at how blind I was. I mean I had it bad. As bad as anyone could I imagine. It is scary to know how easy you can lose yourself and how difficult it is to find yourself again. I would hate to imagine what would have happened to me had my H given up on me. I don't even want to go there.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by want it back:
<strong>Unfortunately my story is scattered throughout this forum like dust in the wind. Bits and pieces everywhere so I will recap.
I am 38, my H is 40. We have been married for 14 yrs. We have 2 sons ages 12 and 13, and an 11 month old daughter who was the result of my affair.
My A started in the summer of 97 with a man from work and officially ended in Sept. of 2000. It started as an EA. After I realized what was happening I went to my H and told him that I had feelings for another man and I asked him to go to counseling with me.(So essentially my H knew from the beginning). We talked alot and My H thought that this was something we could deal with on our own without counseling. Wrong. EA turned PA and for 3 years I waffled back and forth between my H and OM. I did all the awful things and said all the hateful things but as I said before, there were times when that fog lifts and then comes back. Finally in Sept. 00 I had the opportunity to stay at a friends house for 5 days while they were out of town. It was during this separation from my H that the fog lifted for good. It had been going in that direction for some time but the separation drove it home for me. I ended the A for good and went back home. It was shortly after that I found out I was pregnant. That in itself was a roller coaster ride. It has not been until these last several months that things have really started to get good for us again, but we had a lot of things to overcome that are not present in your situation. <p> The fog is just what it sounds like and you can not convince anyone who is in that fog that it exists. Everything is distorted, and things that would normally be so obvious to this person are lost on them. I absolutely marvel at how blind I was. I mean I had it bad. As bad as anyone could I imagine. It is scary to know how easy you can lose yourself and how difficult it is to find yourself again. I would hate to imagine what would have happened to me had my H given up on me. I don't even want to go there.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>You are right about alot of common sense being lost on people like me. I don't understand it myself either really. love is blind unfortunately and that is what the fight is for me, getting beyond it, the fog and/or love.
I wanted to know something, is your baby being raised by you and your husband and is om completely out of picture? Does he know about baby and if so, was he willing to let child go or did he have no choice?