[QUOTE]Originally posted by tigger4jdt:<p>
"Yes, you are wrong to make the decission of how your M is going to be alone! You need to come clean with your H about everything!" <p>Tigger4, You have given me some very concrete advice, thank you. I feel that I can tell H about A but I'm still undecided about S. I know revealing A will create questions in his mind about S, so I can see where both would need to be revealed at the same time. If my H decides to leave me then he might decide to leave our S. Although I don't think he would because he loves him so very much. Then OM would possibly come into my S life. That is my worry, not that OM is a bad person but I don't want a part time father for my child. That is why I chose to raise him with my H. Even if OM divorced, as he and I discussed, he already had a family and responsibilites to them. It wasn't what I wanted for my child then and it still isn't. My H really loves our S and is a great father. I'm afraid to ruin that, not for myself, but for my S.<p>"Why does xOM even need to be involved in your S's life, especially if your H chooses to raise his as he has been, as his own son? Your xOM is the classic "cakeman", having his M and kids from that, and keeping you on the sidelines with your S! I can almost guarantee that's why he is telling you that this forum isn't worth it, and to stop coming here! He enjoys his life as it is, and you are ruining that for him! If you truly want to save your marriage, you need to cut all ties w/xOM! If he is not involved now, and your H decides to keep S as his own, then leave everything as it is! But, tell xOM that it is completely over, and you don't want to hear from or see him in any way again!"<p>Somehow your words got through to me about OM . I thought about what you said about him enjoying his life as it is and I do believe you are right on. In my blindness I forgot about him telling me several years ago that he did in fact like things as they are and he didn't want to change. I actually forgot about it until now. I spent the last 24 hours looking back in my minds eye and I have gotten really angry & disgusted at OM. I do wonder now if he just told me what he needed to in order to keep me in his life. I never thought he was lying to me until I read your post. I haven't told him all the principals here or that I was posting or getting feedback that I should tell H everything. I just told him that we should cut all contact. He didn't agree obviously. Why won't he let me go? What is the cakeman profile? Does that mean he wants life his way and to hell with the rest of us?

CM,<p>Yes, the OM can lie. The exOM in my situation would tell me my sons would be fine if I divorced my H. That he himself came from a divorced family and had little contact with his father and turned out fine. Then when I told him I was pregnant and was staying with my H he went up one side of me and down the other about how I was going to ruin my daughters life by not letting her be able to grow up with her "real" mommy and daddy. I called him on it and reminded him of all the times he told me my sons would fine. Know what he said? "I would have told you anything to get you." So yes, they do lie.

WIB & 2long,<p>I don't recall if it was I that said something about all your H wanted, WIB. But, I will offer you something that I read in a book one day. The book was about men and had some title I thought was fun: Men Made Easy, or something like that.<p>In any event, in there the author made an interesting point. The point was that women often don't let men answer or join in the conversations. Yet, they then claim they won't talk.<p>The point and suggestion were the following. Men don't usually talk about their feelings. Lot of reasons for that many of them good. Nevertheless, they don't. So when a time comes where they SHOULD be talking about their feelings, they haven't formulated the words to express what they feel. It isn't done often.<p>Her suggestion was/is to ask him a question and then sit and wait for him to answer. It may take a minute or more, but just wait for him to answer.
Sounds easy doesn't it??? You both have children as do I, ever ask you child a question about school work?? They don't really know the answer off the top of their head, but they probably do know it, they just don't think about it. What you find is often you get impatient and answer the question yourself and then move on to explaining what they didn't know. The waiting is very hard and not often done.<p>Over the years here I have offered this advice to a variety of women who complain that there H's won't talk. It seems to work often. <p>I have thought about this a bit, and my conclusion is that it is simply a matter of practice. Many (not all women) talk with each other about their feelings, it is a common topic. So, the speech patterns, the thoughts, the connections are already primed. Men, don't talk about the subject of feelings very often, so while they know what they feel, they cannot put words to it easily.<p>I would suspect that 2long felt things when his D-day came that it has taken a long time for him to articulate, if he ever has. His W probably doesn't really want to hear how she has hurt him.<p>WIB, I'll bet it took a while to put into words what you felt when you found out you were pregnant by OM. My guess is CM is in the same situation.<p>These are not common occurances and it takes awhile to describe what is felt. One, often sees it on this board. People trying to write what they feel about a situation, no matter what side of an issue they are on, and having a hard time making themselves clear (thank God for those little faces, they help). People are often misinterpretted. Actually, more in this particular section of the MB site than any other.
These are not very common experiences and very very emotionally trying.<p>So, WIB try this exercise on your H. When you ask him something about his feelings let him have a lot of time to answer. My bet is if you asked something about fixing things or carpentry he comes right back with an answer. He practices that.<p>2Long, talk to your W about the same thing. Tell her when she asks a question to give you time to answer. I do that with my W now.<p>CM, pay attention to this (whether I am right or wrong) communications between you and your H is going to be really tested and probably already needs to improve no matter what you decide. You need to be really really aware of both your H's and your capabilities here.<p>One last thought about how well the OM communicate. I was a batchelor into my 30's. I had no trouble communicating with women, but there was no risk. I have a much harder time with my W and we talk all of the time. Why? Well, when you love someone or are deeply enmeshed in their life it seems much harder to say the honest things, and it doesn't seem right to try and snow them either.<p>Do you see what I mean??? When it is casual, it is much easier to do the romantic things. When you are living life with them, it seems somehow harder. Heck, when I buy flowers for my W "just because", I usually get the "what do you want?" look or even question or "what did you do?" look. Yet, I have never cheated, or pushed her for anything. Interesting how marriage changes things. IF I were not married to her, she would accept them as a "romantic" token of my esteem.<p>So to wrap up something that became much longer than it should have. Pay attention to communications especially when the subject isn't one that both are familiar. (Just remember that men usually don't have much trouble talking about their favorite subjects: football, hobbies, etx. Feelings is usually NOT one of their favorite subjects. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>God Bless,<p>JL

WIB: "My H is also not very verbal. When in the midst of my affair my H would ask me why or what was making me do this. I told him that the OM made me feel as no one had ever made me feel before. OM would almost constantly tell me how beautiful I was, how intelligent, funny, sexy, sensitive, caring and on and on."<p>I got something like this from my W after D-day. It really hurt me to the core, until I read how common this is. He has the advantage that he doesn't have to be "real" with my W when he's with her or communicating with her. My wife has often said, particularly in the past year or so that "you can love someone until you have to live with them." My reaction to that was always to express hurt or at best try to come up with some answer related to the "reality" of daily life as opposed to the A, but I often feel like I don't get much mileage with that. <p>"He wrote me unbelievable love letters."<p>My W has said that she's got a couple of love letters from/to OM dating back several years. She offered to show them to me when she was screaming at me about 2 months ago about my checking her emails. I told her I didn't need to see them. What I'd actually like, now, or sometime in the not-to-distant future, is to see her destroy them, along with any and all mention of him on her computer, any reports they've worked on together (I actually helped with one of these after her first PA with him! - not knowing about it of course). Basically, remove the guy from our lives entirely. She probably won't agree to anything like this, at least not anytime soon.<p>"These things he did almost non stop for the entire 3 yrs. My H on the other hand had never done these things even in the beginning of our relationship. My H's reply was " I guess I just don't have a silver tongue but it doesn't mean that I don't think those things." "<p>I did a lot of this when we were dating. I was away at school when we started dating, for a quarter. 2 hrs away, so we saw each other every weekend when I came home. But I wrote letters to and received letters from her every day. We wrote pretty mushy things to each other, and I ususally put a favorite quote from the Bible on the envelope flap for her to read, then colored the envelopes in gawdy colors (spent a good hour each night on them - maybe this is why I didn't do that well as an Astronomy major!). Once I moved back after that quarter and changed my major, we saw each other every day for the next year before we were married, so we didn't write, we talked. A LOT. <p>Throughout our M, I just got quieter and quieter, I guess, modulated by surprises that she was apparently so unhappy for the past 12 years (surprises to me, because although she told me of her attraction to OM, she took my stupid reaction that "as long as there's no sex, it's not an affair" as meaning that I didn't care about her!). Yesterday, she actually told our MC and me that the first 15 years of our M were actually pretty good for her. First time I heard that, really. In the same session, however, she repeated the "I never wanted to be married" and "I wasn't ready for a physical relationship with 2long 27 years ago" comments. <p>So, I continue to flop around like a fish out of water, trying to figure out what she REALLY needs from me NOW.

WIB:<p>Forgot to respond to your first comment about compliments from your H. I did that too early on. I've been doing it a lot again, since D-day. I feel awkward at times doing it, knowing that that was apparently one of the things she liked about OM. Also feel bad when she says it's too much. <p>Again, trying hard to find the right balances, and not getting enough of the right feedback, or not reading it well.

JL: Your post seems to hit so close to home with me that I'm tempted to copy and paste it into an email to my W, but I don't think I will (based on my previous experiences with trying to "educate her" with MB principles).<p>"WIB & 2long,<p>In any event, in there the author made an interesting point. The point was that women often don't let men answer or join in the conversations. Yet, they then claim they won't talk."<p>BINGO! At least, that's the way I feel. My W probably feels that I'm not listening, or that I don't care. And NOW, she has the MC seeming to agree with her! I guess this is why I'm so down now, even though things overall appear okay between us.<p>"The point and suggestion were the following. Men don't usually talk about their feelings. Lot of reasons for that many of them good. Nevertheless, they don't. So when a time comes where they SHOULD be talking about their feelings, they haven't formulated the words to express what they feel. It isn't done often."<p>Yep. Absolutely.<p>"You both have children as do I, ever ask you child a question about school work?? They don't really know the answer off the top of their head, but they probably do know it, they just don't think about it."<p>You were there? [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>"What you find is often you get impatient and answer the question yourself and then move on to explaining what they didn't know. The waiting is very hard and not often done."<p>Bingo, again. This is exactly what my W does to me.<p>"Over the years here I have offered this advice to a variety of women who complain that there H's won't talk. It seems to work often. "<p>This is worth a try in our situation. I will think about how to broach the subject with my W.<p>"I would suspect that 2long felt things when his D-day came that it has taken a long time for him to articulate, if he ever has. His W probably doesn't really want to hear how she has hurt him."<p>That's for sure. She also tends to think my changes are fake, or won't last. I can't reassure her, and that makes continuing with Plan A hard for me, knowing she doesn't always believe I can keep up this new behavior forever. I think I can, and I think so because going back to the past is so unthinkable to me. I've at least gotten her to recognize that. My problem with her primarily is that she doesn't believe that I will ever trust her again, and she doesn't think that she trusts me to have fundamentally changed, because 11 years is such a long time.<p>"These are not very common experiences and very very emotionally trying."<p>And I am exhausted daily. So is my W, and because her perspective on what's happened is so different from mine (11 years to adjust, versus 3 months), she'd rather take it "one day at a time" whereas I'd rather wear myself out all day every day until I understand everything.<p>"2Long, talk to your W about the same thing. Tell her when she asks a question to give you time to answer. I do that with my W now."<p>I will.<p>"Do you see what I mean??? When it is casual, it is much easier to do the romantic things. When you are living life with them, it seems somehow harder."<p>Hence my W's "you can love someone until you have to live with them" comment. Your way of putting it just now was a lot less antagonistic, however.<p>"Heck, when I buy flowers for my W "just because", I usually get the "what do you want?" look or even question or "what did you do?" look. Yet, I have never cheated, or pushed her for anything. Interesting how marriage changes things. IF I were not married to her, she would accept them as a "romantic" token of my esteem."<p>I get funny looks, or even disgusted, tired looks, when I give my W flowers, and they come from our own garden and I pick them myself! Before we were M'd, I used to bring her those small potted cacti. She loved that, because it was so unique. I'd do that again, but I think she told me that it wouldn't mean the same these days as it did then.

2long,<p>I realize now that telling my H the things OM was telling me must have hurt him terribly but at the time I said it I was in the fog and trying to justify what I was doing. As far as the letters and cards from the OM go, they were burned by me in our wood stove a long time ago. I never showed them to my H.<p>My H started telling me things towards the end of my A like how wonderful I was and how I am the one person that keeps this family going and they would all be nothing without me. He stopped saying those things though after I ended the A. I used to feel like he stopped saying them because he knew he had "won" but I know how he feels about me and I don't need to be swept off my feet everyday.<p>JL,
I know, I know. I need to work on communication. I guess I just see how uncomfortable he gets when he has to talk about anything personal and I don't like to push it. But I would love it if he did talk so I won't give up on it.<p>
2long and JL, <p>I haven't gotten flowers since the A ended period, so I don't know how I'd react.<p>[ April 10, 2002: Message edited by: want it back ]</p>

WIB:
"I realize now that telling my H the things OM was telling me must have hurt him terribly but at the time I said it I was in the fog and trying to justify what I was doing."<p>Add to this my W's tendency to blurt things out, often times in such a way as to sound very hurtful to most lifeforms on this planet (when some other, kinder way would get the point across just as well, like my quote from her about being able to love someone until you have to live with them), and you see where I've been for the past 11 years, and where I still am now, in many ways. There are many ways to communicate things you feel, but I think too often my W appears to try to make her point in as biting a way, just to get it across. Guess she thinks I won't listen if she isn't blunt. What she doesn't realize is that, if I can't help her change that behavior, I'll quit our M. It hurts too much, particularly now I'm hurting since D-day.<p>"As far as the letters and cards from the OM go, they were burned by me in our wood stove a long time ago. I never showed them to my H."<p>I'd like to do this. Hm... I may be tempted to buy her a new laptop as an upgrade, then pour hot coffee on the old one before all the files can be transferred.... Nah!<p>"My H started telling me things towards the end of my A like how wonderful I was and how I am the one person that keeps this family going and they would all be nothing without me. He stopped saying those things though after I ended the A. I used to feel like he stopped saying them because he knew he had "won" but I know how he feels about me and I don't need to be swept off my feet everyday.""<p>Hm. I wonder if I'll do something like this, and I wonder if that's what my W is worried will happen. I started saying more of the wonderful stuff to her after D-day, though I firmly believe that I said them before as well (or else why would her friends all have been telling her that our M was "perfect"?). I love her very much, but I'm getting pretty tired. Not tired enough to give up yet, though.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by want it back:<p>
WIB,
Was your xOM single or M? Were you in love with him when you decided to stay with H?

CM,
xOM was single (divorced). Looking back now I'm not sure I was ever truly in love with him although it certainly felt like it at the time. So for the sake of argument I have to say that yes, I felt I was still in love with him at the time I ended the A. I did not end it because I no longer felt in love with him, I ended it because of other realizations I had made. I realized that I did love my H and we had a much longer history together than I had with the OM. We had been through much more together than I had with the OM. We also had a family together that I wanted very badly to preserve. I had also begun to seriuosly question whether the relationship I had with the OM could survive the realities of day to day life. I wasn't so sure I could make it work with him in that context, however I knew I could make it work with my H.<p>I know you have very big concerns about hurting people right now and I definately understand that.
I'm the kind of person who never says no to anyone asking me for a favor, no matter how inconvenient it is to me, because I don't want to hurt thier feelings. I did not want to hurt the OM but it was unavoidable. Then on top of that, a few weeks later I had to tell my H that I was pregnant( Not only did I know that this would kill him but I also knew there was the possibility of him kicking me out). Then I had to tell the OM that I was pregnant but I was still staying with my H. It seemed as if everytime I turned around I was causing someone unbearable pain. The best thing I did was have no contact with the OM after I told him I was pregnant until my daughter was born. It was not long before days would go by without me even thinking about him. Knowing I made the right decision helped tremendously. <p>You need to get past all the ugly stuff to get to a good place again. If you don't then you live with the constant fear of having to go through it eventually and that is no way to live.

CM,<p>I'm sorry I didn't relpy sooner. I was looking to see if I could find the thread on the GQII board about "cakeman" but after searching off and on all day, I couldn't find it. From what I understand, it's basically like "having your cake and eating it too". Your xOM has his W and kids, but he is also holding on to you and your R! He could just be using your S as a way to keep you around! He doesn't want to let that go, and that's why he is "warning you off" of this site! Deep down, he knows that your R is wrong, but he doesn't want to loose the ability to "eat his cake"! <p>I know that this is a hard one for you, but I still think that when(not if) you come clean with your H, you need to come clean about EVERYTHING! You owe it to your H to give him the whole truth, and let him decide where to go from there! Even after our initial D-day, both Sailorman and I were still keeping secrets from eachother, and it just made it that much harder to start down the road to recovery! But, once we came clean, it was like the weight of the world was lifted from our shoulders! Think about it. Can you truly head down the road to recovery if you are still keeping a secret, one that I feel is almost bigger than the A itself! At least then, after you "tell all" you can start with a clean slate, nothing to hide from your H! Think how much easier that will be for both of you to rebuild your M!<p>Ok, I'm going to get off my soapbox now. Maybe we should start a new thread off of this one, so we can keep track of all the new growth you've had since coming here. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Love,<p>Tigger

CM:<p>I just wanted to check in and see how things are going for you? I've been away trying to fathom some unfathomable things my W and our MC have been telling me this week, so I lost track there.<p>Hope all is progressing!

2long:
How are things with you and W?
I've been on a rollercoaster lately. I've felt paralyzed and in the past when I feel this way, I do nothing. I know that I have to do something. Although still in WD, I have been trying hard at home with H. Maybe I'm trying to get myself in a position where H is happy so when/if I tell him, he won't feel so hopeless and hurt as you and others tell about. Does that make sense? I did decide to do something else. Many people here said not to do this but my gut instinct said I had to do it. Mainly because my son is involved. I called OM and I explained in alot more detail about his site and what it has done to help me see there is a way out of this. He told me that he has had 2 1/2 years to prepare for it so he doesn't need any help. 2 1/2 yrs ago he broke up with me and although we ended up back together it was at that time that we made a pact of no divorces would take place and eventually we'd just be friends. I had gotten pregnant after that pact was made and for me I became more confused all around so my progress toward the "end" was not so great. Anyway, I went on and explained what you all have advised, and that I was looking for a MC and in very serious consideration of telling H about him and biology of son. While I am not looking for his approval, in my heart I felt I needed to tell him since it potentially will affect him and his family. He told me that he wouldn't try to tell me what to do and that I had to decide for myself. He didn't try to convince me not to and that shocked me. He said that if my H doesn't react as I hope, then his W will probably find out and he has no doubt she will leave him. 2long, I did not fall back, I said something that even surprised myself considering I wanted to marry this man at one time. I told him of all the people here who initially thought they'd leave too and didn't. That he may be surprised and that if he wanted to be happy and make M better, he would consider telling his W too. I know to people here that may seem like such a trival step or maybe not even count toward Recovery, but for me, it was HUGE because I believed it. I told my H that I loved him lastnight for the first time in a long time and I really meant it. That is all for now, sorry not to report better progress.

CM,<p>I realize this is Fri and heading toward the weekend so I thought I would respond because others may not until next week. While I don't think it is the best idea to talk with your OM, I think you are making very good progress.<p>It seems to me in this reading he is still trying to control you, by mentioning that his W may leave him. She might. Your response is very true, HE DOESN'T KNOW what she will do. It is a risk.<p>I think your realize that if you tell your H there is a risk as well. Anyone that would tell you that there is no risk of your H leaving is being very very foolish. Your betrayal of him is pretty complete and I know you realize this.<p>That is of course the point isn't it? If things were to stay like they are YOU will never know if your H loves you or not. You will never really ever be able to share with him even the joys of raising a child because you will always know that he doesn't know that this child is not his.<p>The only real light is probably honesty, but where it leads you is anyone's guess. One of men's deepest fears is that a child might no be his. Not that he cannot raise such a child, it is done via remarriages all of the time. It is just the betrayal part.<p>I think you did a good job telling him you love him. But, only if YOU mean it. From now on whatever you tell him, it had better be the truth. If you do love him, tell him. Build up those love units. If you are mad at him, tell him. Talk with him about it. Interestingly, people well sense honesty better sometime via the unpleasant things that are told than the pleasant.<p>I sense that you are getting stronger. You are beginning to face what has happened. As you do, I suspect you will do what is best for you, your H, and your child. Make no mistake there is a risk that things may not turn out as you would wish. But, also remember that things will turn out and this will pass once you face it.<p>You are doing well CM. Keep up the good work.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

CM:<p>Thanks very much for asking! Things are going well, when I look at how we interact and also when I look at our situation as objectively as I can. But emotionally, I'm still pretty uncertain. For a summary of what's going on right now, check out Freshstart's thread at http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=8&t=009102 (I hope I did that right!). But my W is still a wonderful person, and I get hugs when I tell her I'd like nothing more in this world than to spend the rest of my life with her. I'm just not convinced yet that, based on some of the things she says, our M is the right thing for her, and I also want what's right for her.<p>It sounds like JL is giving you the best advice I've heard lately right now. I do urge you to tell your H, don't even think about not telling him. But if you haven't gotten an IC lined up yet, by all means get one as soon as possible. They've literally saved my M already, by stopping me from reacting rather than responding with care. <p>persevere, you're worth it!