I hope someone is out there this weekend that can help me by critiquing the following letter to my W. She went away to an herbal conference for the weekend and I found another e-mail to someone else admitting that she has called him recently. I do truly believe that this trip is legitimate because she has left me so many ways to check on her and she is room mating with my best friends wife.
I feel really hurt but I think a numbness has taken over my body and I can’t sleep.
Please tell me if this sounds rational and is not so damaging that she sees no hope.<p>
My Dearest Mrs. ULA<p>First I must say that I love you with all of my being and it is with much regret that I find myself writing this letter. I feel that I must look at that love as something that I can only give with nothing in return for I have found yet again evidence of your sharing your love with someone else.
It is time for you to make a choice between your poet and me. I realize that you have been chasing a fantasy behind my back for so many years that it must seem a normal thing to do, but it is not acceptable to me.
You have seen the best I have to offer for I will never be a master of words and I don&#8217;t think that there is any thing left in me. I have worked harder at this relationship than anything in my life, and right now I feel betrayed yet again. I believe you have a serious addiction that I cannot cure.
My intent is to allow you some time to soul search and visit your therapist if you wish. If at the end of that time you feel that it is not possible to break this habit then I must move on with my life. My target date is also my retirement day.
I have to say this even though it will probably hurt you and you will no doubt deny it but I feel that one of the reasons that I feel you gave up on your relationship with your sons so easily is that you realized you couldn&#8217;t change and you didn&#8217;t want to hurt them any more.
I know that we will be giving up many good years together but I think I owe myself a chance at unconditional love from someone because I am a good and decent human being.
Please don&#8217;t worry about me because I do not intend to get a ticket to that roller coaster of emotions again. It wasn&#8217;t worth the price of admission.
In your search for yourself, be assured that I will always love you.<p>ULA<p>I plan to leave the letter and my wedding ring for her when she returns. Should I or should I confront her in person? I am not angry but I am very disapointed in her.
The paragraph about her sons sounds vindictive to me. Is it?
Suggestions are welcomed.
Sadly ULA

ula,,,,,, i am sorry to see this happening to you again. you have shown exceptional patience and understanding to your w through all of this. the efforts you have put forth to rebuild your marriage and reconnect your family are extrodinary. your w does not know what a truely good man she may be losing. i don't see anything vindictive in your letter. actually i see it quite the opposite. your words are extremely kind and to the point. one last question are you sure that the e-mail you found was really pointing towards an a of some sort? or could it be lack of trust raising its head again? just hoping that you could be jumping conclusions after all yo have been through.

ula,
I too am sorry for your pain. Are you sure this is affair-related material you found? I just hope you aren't overreacting (and no one could blame you if you did, given her history). Sometimes, given the depth of getting burned last time, I imagine things that are no long happening.<p>Beyond that, your letter is very sweet and caring, very articulate. <p>Prayers and sympathy,
J

Perhaps I am jumping to conclusions but I will attach the e-mail sans names and perhaps you can help me judge more clearly.<p>--------------------------------------------------
-----Original Message-----
From: Mrs ULA
Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 12:46 PM
To: Poet
Subject: RE: (no subject)<p>
I tried to call you today at work - then I went to call you at home, but
can't find your number anywhere. There are allot of changes at work for me
and I wanted you to know that xxx-xxxx will be disconnected June 27. I will
not be on the computer or have a phone line until first week in July. My
new number will be xxx-xxxx and it will not be private - it is the number
for the office. You may call me, if I'm not there will be another
woman answering the phone and would rather she know nothing about my life.
Anyway we need to talk. I love your poem and appreciate you sending it. I
love your words - they make me see what you are saying and that is so
wonderful. Give me your home phone and I will try to call you later, unless
you are going to bed. You can call XXX-xxxx until June 20 and then change
to xxx-xxxx after July 1.<p>-----Original Message-----
From: Poet
Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 12:16 PM
To: Mrs ULA
Subject: (no subject)<p>
hi Mrs ULA
i have worked all night again, just getting home
i am heading out the door to wash my dirty car
i went kayaking yesterday afternoon, it is filthy !!!
here is a little something i wrote yesterday morning<p>
walk with me through the morning dew
watch the sun rise over the sea
how many days have past since we last spoke
since we last loved ...
what do you remember of our times together ...
are you as much of a romantic as I
remembering the soft kisses ...
the stolen glances....
the whispers ...
the touches and embraces ...
when will i be able to reach out and taste
the air around and know you are there
just within reach ...
within my conciousness ...
reach out to touch the clouds with me
let me paint rainbows all over your sky for you..
join me and gather starlight for nights when the moon is full
just so you can find your way to meet me in the darkness ...
--------------------------------------------------<p>I don't think I could send this to anyone except a former lover and the response by W sounds to me like there is a strong connection even if it is not MM2 there is an inappropriate bond of some sort. What do you think?<p>Thanks for taking the time to reply<p>ULA

ULA, I vowed that I would never post here again but I have always admired you and feel the need to offer you some hope even if it is only wishful thinking. It's obvious that whoever wrote the poem contacted her first. It also sounds as if it is someone whom she has not heard from in a while (she can't find his home phone #, is informing him of changes going on at work etc). Maybe, just maybe, she wants to contact this person to tell him to please not contact her anymore, or to let him know that she is happy and he need not be concerned for her anymore. Of course she should not have contacted him back in the first place and should have been honest and up front with you about the e-mail but just maybe it is not as bad as you are thinking it is. I really hope it isn't. She doesn't sound overly romantic in her response to him. Maybe more like a fondness. Like she appreciates that he has some nice memories which prompted the poem. If anything it probably gave her a momentary ego boost for which she was thankful for. Does that make any of this appropriate behavior? No way!! Your letter is great, she needs to know that you are serious and that this behavior will not be tolerated. Just please don't imagine that it is more than that until you have talked to her. You need to do what you need to do now. You have been more than fair and understanding.

Want it back<p>I am sorry that you broke your vow but I am also happy that you did at the same time. I think that you have a lot to offer us here and would hate to see you leave. I thought my time for lurking was almost at an end but now I feel like I will need all of you kind folks for a while longer.<p>As far as her calling him to tell him to leave her alone, I also hope that is true. However if you notice the dates she has had more than enough time to tell me that someone has again tried to contact her. Also a no contact letter was sent to MM2 over a year ago. The passage that he wrote strongly indicates to me that this is in fact MM2 and not another individual. It has the same style as the e-mails that he originally wrote to her and the sexual undertones are unmistakable. It sickens me to read these things again so that I can compare them.<p>Also the timing seems too convenient since it preceded her scheduled trip. Maybe this is truly paranoia but I think somehow he knew that she was going to be away from me this weekend and was hoping for an invitation to meet her. God my mind goes wild just thinking of the possibilities. If any cheater deserves to have his wife informed this one certainly does and I would not hesitate given the opportunity. I guess I am angry after all.
I did allow myself to get into the boat and go fishing this morning for a few hours but it is too easy to let my mind drift from the beauty before me to the unhappiness I am facing when she returns tomorrow.
I feel like I have let everyone here down because I was so proud of our progress and now my comments have lost their validity.
The boys are taking me to lunch tomorrow for Father&#8217;s Day and it is going to be hard to put on a happy face for them. I just cannot hurt them any more by confiding my suspicions.<p>God Bless us all<p>ULA

ula,,,,, i am sorry to say that i feel your fears are correct. i don't know if i am the person to give advice on this subject as i am of the two strikes and your out mind set. hurt me once and i might heal but never ask a second time. so please take this with a grain of salt as it may sound very blunt. i assure that there is no disrespect intended anywhere.
i would not hesitate to give her your letter as i feel your w is in at least an ea. i would be very honest and direct about finding her e-mails. i would explain that i thought her actions were most inappropiate (sp?) under the circumstances of your marriage and her past history. my reasons are very simple. there should be no reason on earth that your w should need his home phone number and she should never had returned his e-mail with any sort of positive response. period. this i my view his poem was backed with unexceptable sexual and romantic content. i would not hesitate either to contact his wife given the chance. in my personal situation i saw fh's a starting and was tempted to contact om's w to try and end it. she asked me to trust her, i did and look what it got me. your w is not acting with any sort of trustworthyness. she has had plenty of time to onform you of this contact. she is also trying to keep tings from you in the fact that she doesn't want him to let anyone in the office know of her personal life. if your w thinks you should be accepting of this situation then she is again most definetly in the proverbial fog. do what is best for yourself at this point.
i would not mention any of this to your sons at this time until she has the opportunity to make her decision under your conditions. <p> i will appoligize if i have offende you in any way and if my views seem to differ from that of mb's. but your w may just have something in her personality that causes her to carry on in this manor. <p> again i admire you for the strength you have shown in your own personal life tragedies and in the sound and compassionate advice you have been able to offer others throughout your own delemas.

ula,<p>I have to agree with Pops! There is never any reason your W should be exchanging this type of emails with anyone except you! I would give her the letter, but you may want to make sure she understands that what ever she decides will be for the rest of her life. <p>I used to think as Pops, but have withstood more than I ever thought I would, and am very greatful that Sailorman has also been forgiving of my 2 moments of stupidity! You need to decide for yourself, is your W willing or able to change? Like you state in the letter, she has been living this fantasy for so long, is this how she perceives life should be? She also needs to see that she is in no way thinking of you and your sons if she is continuing to lead this double life! <p>I would think that she would have learned her lesson, seeing how your sons reacted to the truth that she had kept for so long! I know that I learned my lesson! I wish that I had some better advice to offer you in your time of need here! I wish that your W could see you from our eyes, to see that you have forgiven her for a lifetime of lies, and that you truly love her with all your heart! Your situation slightly reminds me of an old poster who hasn't been around for quite some time. His W was the perfect example of a fence sitter! It almost seems as if your W is afraid to give up her fantasy to see that the true prince charming is living with her!<p>I hope that I made some sence, or helped at least a little. Keep us updated as to what happens, and come here for support!<p>Tigger

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I am sorry that you broke your vow but I am also happy that you did at the same time <hr></blockquote><p>
ULA, Don't worry about it. As we all know I've already broken vows more important than this one.<p>
I'm sorry if you or anyone else found my post to be too "easy" on your wife. That was not my intent. I am simply the kind of person who can not stand to see anyone in pain, and I could almost feel your pain as I read your post. I just wanted to give you any kind of hope to hang on to. Without hope what do we have?<p>I will go back to my lurking position now and will keep following your posts and praying very hard that things work out the best for YOU.

The e-mail exchange was dated June 10 and obviously there was no discusssion between your wife and yourself (radical honesty) about this...<p>Therefore, I seriously doubt if she was trying to get in touch with him for a "no contact" agreement. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] I have to agree with the others that she has established contact and is planning on renewed contact if not already maintaining contact... And, I have to agree with you that she does seem willing to sort of exchange her relationship with your sons for this person!!! Not to mention YOU!!! I'm so sorry! *sigh* <img src="graemlins/teary.gif" border="0" alt="[Teary]" /> <p>"stolen kisses...touches & embraces...taste you in the air...meet me in the darkness"<p>What the heck???<p>Nah, if she was in favor of NO CONTACT, why give out her new numbers, ask for his HOME number, and even provide details of dates and who will be answering the calls--in other words, do not tell the woman answering the phone exactly who you are!!! [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] Not only does this sound like contact, it sounds like (re)establishing contact without a break in between new phone numbers.<p>I don't think your letter sounded vindictive or angry at all. In fact, your letter sounds VERY nice! So, how did she react? What did she do with your ring??? I'm really sad to hear this news. Hope you held up okay over the weekend ULA. We all care about you a lot on MB, I hope you know that!!! We are all pulling for you, too! Hang in there!!! LOVE & HUGS TO YOU! [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ June 24, 2002: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</p>

Excellent, BinThere<p>I second what she said.<p>Prayers,
J

Tigger4jdt, WIB, BTDT, Jenny and Pops;<p>Thanks for your support and advice. It was greatly appreciated this weekend.<p>I didn&#8217;t have the heart to remove my wedding ring because it means so much to me. I think that gesture will have to wait until I am positive that she cannot change. She has a little over 4 months left to prove it. <p>I did, however, give her the letter and a copy of the e-mail and left her alone to read them. At first her attitude was defensive but she soon realized how much she had hurt me again. She spent the rest of last night and this morning apologizing and begging me not to leave since she says he means nothing to her. I am having a very hard time believing that. If you can believe it she told me that she saw nothing which would harm our relationship in his words and she thought she could &#8220;handle it&#8221;. Ha! I guess she is either extremely naïve or she thinks I just fell off the turnip truck! Said she was afraid to tell me he had contacted her because I would be mad at her. I&#8217;m sorry but I missed the logic there. How could I be mad at her for what someone else has done? She has asked me what she can do to make amends and I have no immediate answer since her promises seem so empty to me right now.<p>I am contemplating sending e-mail to him myself after she reads it and agrees with what I have to say. I don&#8217;t hold any sway over him but perhaps I can point out to him that there can be consequences to his marriage if he attempts another contact. Also I would like to appeal to him that she has an addiction not to him specifically but to anyone willing to feed her fantasy. Would he give a fix to a junkie he cared for? Offer a drink to a known alcoholic loved one? If the answer to either of those is yes then there is no hope for him. <p>Does anyone else have any suggestions?<p>I would also like to include the Internet address of the &#8220;Cakeman&#8221; definition if anyone has that handy.<p>By the way our DIL is hanging in there (not literally like the card to MJ&#8217;s OW) and she is now 27 weeks into the pregnancy with no contractions for a week and a half. We know the baby is not out of the woods but every day it&#8217;s chances improve. Thank you all for your continued prayers for her.<p>God Bless<p>ULA

ula,,,, again your compassion for others must be admired. the mear fact that you are contemplating sending him an e-mail after your w agrees to its content is way more then i would tolerate at this point. i would write the e-mail and let her read it. you are a person whos words are never threatening so there would not be much for your w to complain about. i would also be very direct in not appealing to him to stay away but insisting. and i would most likely inform his w of the situation. <p> it seems that you are seeing things very clearly in regards to what your w is saying to you. please continue to keep your eyes wide open. your plan to keep your hope positive for the next 4 months seems sound. <p> wow! 4 months until retirement? that is a dream i can hardly wait to realize. what on earth could a man do without a time clock to punch every day or an office to run or clients to see? could their be the horrible experiences if a round of golf several days a week or travel to new places or may be a little sailing? all without the weekend crowds? my word what am even looking forward to such pain and agony for?<p> good luck ula and i will be pulling for you and your successes in life.

ULA,<p>I am sorry to see this thread exists. I am also sorry that you are in this fix again. I do hope that perhaps your W will finally see the light and get some help. As for the MM#2, send him the email if you like. Frankly, at this point your W has a decision to make and so do you. Her decision is whether or not she is going to be a real W, after all of these years. You decision is whether she can be a real W to you or it is time to move on.<p>Therefore, what you do to MM#2 is of no consequence. But, you just might save his W a lot of the heartache you have gone through with the repeated betrayals.<p>You have received great advice from everyone. It was good to see WIB come out. I do miss her posts.<p>ULA, you have done as good as you can do. It is time for your W to step up.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

ULA:<p>I too am sorry to see this thread. You have been an inspiration to me over the past 5 1/2 months since I found out about my W's As with her OM (two over an 11-year period). <p>This scares me because my W still has contact with her OM for work purposes, BUT she does it through a hotmail acct because I intercepted an email between them that was very hurtful to me, and yet she thought was a sort of closure email to him! So, I worry daily that the kind of sexual crap that was in that email is still going between them, maybe even more so since OMW threw OM out when she found out about the latest A (and she'd known about the first one!). <p>We're getting along great, but we're not talking much about this problem. My W does seem to appreciate the way I responded to the news of OM being thrown out, because I didn't do the same to her, but the contact still continues.<p>Again, I'm very sorry to hear your news. It does make me wonder if some WSs are really capable of devoting themselves to honesty and one R. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]

ULA I think that one of the things that your W has to know is that it is that her dishonesty to you is what caused all the heartache in everybody's lives. If she wants to make amends she has to know that she has to be honest about everything that she encounters when you are not present and that you in kind promise not to react angry or disrespectful for her honesty. <p>You also have to remember that in your situation, her A's were decades long. A person like her will need time to change her habits, habits that have been part of her makeup for so long, just like a decades long alcoholic. But in order to do this, she has to willingly want your help in keeping her honest because otherwise it will not work and it will back to business as usual. I hope that you can help her realize this.<p>Good luck and God bless.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Usedlongago:
<strong>...she says he means nothing to her. I am having a very hard time believing that. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>I have to agree with you on that one too, ULA... Clearly, there was an EA, your son is proof of their PA... <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Usedlongago:
<strong>If you can believe it she told me that she saw nothing which would harm our relationship in his words and she thought she could "handle it". Ha!
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Yeah, it's the old WS fog rolling in... [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Usedlongago:
<strong>Said she was afraid to tell me he had contacted her because I would be mad at her. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>Maybe your wife was telling the truth and everything, but I think it was more of a concern for her guilt than your hurt, so that's why she would keep it a secret. Stolen kisses are done in secret. Of course, this would upset you UNLESS there was an interest on her part in dealing with the OM as a united front and the team that you are supposed to be. Not only did she have no intention of telling you, she had every intention of reestablishing contact with this person. I'm sorry, but that's the way I honestly see this. I'm trying to give your wife the benefit of the doubt and I'm trying to be as fair to her as I can based on what info you have provided here.<p>Have to agree with the CoffeeMan that this has been going on for such an extended period that 4 months is a short recovery time compared to the length of the addiction...<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Usedlongago:
<strong>She has asked me what she can do to make amends and I have no immediate answer since her promises seem so empty to me right now.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>ULA, you need to get your thinking cap on right now, immediately! This is your chance to negotiate the OM right out of your lives and maybe get your W in to joint counseling with you--maybe get her to make amends with your sons--the sky is the limit! THINK about what you really want from your wife and verbalize it and get it down in writing! You can do this!<p>You want:

• Counseling?
• Relationships with your sons repaired through apologies from your W to them as a start...?
• A Christmas family dinner?
• Her to quit OM for GOOD.
• A no contact letter signed by both of you.
• OM's wife to KNOW about what is going on.
• The sky is the limit! THINK!

<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Usedlongago:
<strong>I am contemplating sending e-mail to him myself after she reads it and agrees with what I have to say...perhaps I can point out to him that there can be consequences to his marriage if he attempts another contact. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>I wonder what Steve Harley would advise you in this situation? I don't know.... but I think this is a good idea! E-mail this person a photo of you and your DW together squeezing each other! He needs to think of your face whenever he thinks of contacting your wife to discuss linking the stars so she can find him in the dark... [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Usedlongago:
<strong>Also I would like to appeal to him that she has an addiction not to him specifically but to anyone willing to feed her fantasy. Would he give a fix to a junkie he cared for? </strong><hr></blockquote><p>Nah, leave this part out. Seems like you would be giving him an ego boost instead of trying to open his eyes to understanding the damage he is doing to your relationship. Seems to me he could care less about your relationship. Still, he is a little sneak. He doesn't deserve your time nor attention, but I think one good e-mail notifying him of some consequences would do him good. Then, go tell his wife ANYWAY!!! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] You know? Mail her that e-mail note and let her read it too...<p>Don't know if this article contains the cakeman definition you were looking for, but I thought it was pretty good...<p>http://www.waterpoetry.com/Page2.htm<p>GLAD to hear about your grandbaby staying put at 27 weeks gestation. That is such a blessing. The baby is probably a little under 2 lbs right about now! My twins were born at 26 weeks, you don't want to go through that nightmare! Trust me!<p>[ June 25, 2002: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</p>

JL and 2 Long<p>I am very sorry to be here but more than that I guess I am afraid of facing life alone again.
Especially when I am about to step over a very big threshold in my life. I am convinced that I cannot carry the burden of knowing my W cares for someone else with me into retirement so, even if it costs me a great deal more financially and emotionally than it will her, I will have to get the strength to move on without her.<p>BTDT <p>I appreciate your comments and suggestions and would like to address some of the points that you have given me to consider and perhaps clarify some misunderstanding about MM2.
<p>"I have to agree with you on that one too, ULA... Clearly, there was an EA, your son is proof of their PA..." <p>
MM2 is not the sperm donor for my son. MM1 has been dead for 8 years last Wednesday. However there definitely an undisputed PA carried on with MM2. That PA was immediately terminated upon discovery but the EA has continued.<p>
&#61550; Counseling?
&#61550; Relationships with your sons repaired through apologies from your W to them as a start...?
&#61550; A Christmas family dinner?
&#61550; Her to quit OM for GOOD.
&#61550; A no contact letter signed by both of you.
&#61550; OM's wife to KNOW about what is going on.
&#61550; The sky is the limit! THINK!<p>
We are still in individual therapy and couples counseling and have been for 18 months and I have confidence in both therapists. (Actually I have had much more help than her, I was under the care of a psychiatric team for a month or so.)<p>She has done both formal and informal apologies to both boys and their wives but I feel that she could do more if she could overcome her self-pity about their separation.<p>She has agreed to never contact him again. (How will I know? I probably can never be 100% sure again)<p>We sent the no contact letter well over a year ago and apparently it meant nothing to him. He interpreted it as merely a smoke screen to appease me and at some time she responded which completely invalidated the whole idea. Herein lies my largest hurt. She &#8220;promised&#8221; at the time that she would tell me if he ever contacted her again. <p>As far as informing his wife, I have mixed emotions about that. Knowing the pain involved, do I want to be responsible for being the messenger? I feel like I would be simply using her as a tool to get at him and that doesn&#8217;t seem like the right thing to do. At this time maybe just the threat to expose this slime ball will be enough.<p>I know I feel myself being very cold towards her now which goes against my nature. I never thought I could be that way to her even in the worst of times and I really don&#8217;t like it. I have pulled back to get my bearings and don&#8217;t know where I stand with her.<p>I wish I could subscribe to &#8220;hope springs eternal&#8221; again but right now it is just a dying trickle.<p>God Bless us all<p>ULA

ULA,<p>I'm in over my head on most of your issues, but as a BS I can tell you I wish the XOW's husband had told me if he suspected her affair w/H. I still don't know when he knew, but he knew XOW and I saw each other often as friends. <p>It would've been painful, yes, but it was painful anyway. And every day it continued was a day further away from recovery--you know what I mean? Instead of being "X" long, it could have ended sooner. I could give any number of reasons why I wish I'd known sooner, (not the least of which, it might've prevented an OC). I wonder how many of XOW's "friends" (who met me) knew she was bopping my H and failed to tell me. It just seems like, if they knew, they didn't really care about ME at all. Wouldn't you want to know the truth, or at least some version of the possibility?<p>Please don't just think of the wife's pain, but the couple facing their issues and hopefully recovery.<p>Don't think you'd just be the "bad guy".<p>However you decide, your own marriage is the more important issue, of course.<p>Sympathy for your deliemmas!!
Angel wings flyin' your way!!
J

ULA,<p>Well, I understand your concerns about your retirement. It is a hugh adjustment from what I have seen from my friends. I look forward to it in the next few years with mixed emotions. Actually, I could retire now, but... [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>As for your W, I am going to ask you some harsh questions.<p>Do you think all of this is just a game to her?<p>I mean she has been playing at this for over 30 years now, yet she doesn't leave. The fact that it cost her a relationship with her sons, doesn't seem to have done it for her. If it is a game, then I suspect that your feelings for her cannot be matched by her feelings for you. She needs help. Frankly, I see the potential for even bigger problems when you retire. YOu will have time to do things, will want to be with her. ANd she may well feel smothered, will run to her job for her support instead of you.<p>Have you two talked about this situation? Do you two have a plan that is good for both of you?<p>ULA, I realize you are worried about many things, but I will tell you this when you retire and if you divorced your W, you won't be a lonely man. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] You sound like a very nice person and you will have time to do many things. So don't worry about being alone.<p>Having said that have you got things lined up to do when you do retire??<p>What is your W saying to you now? Is she even comprehending that this time you really might leave her? I suspect she really doesn't believe it. <p>ULA, keep your head up. Start going through plans for YOUR future; they may include her they may not. I think it is time that SHE prove to you that she is serious and that means she ought to supply you with a plan to convince you that she is being honest with you. I know you mentioned earlier that she is very head strong and full of herself, but that hasn't really served her well. Maybe it is time she decided what SHE wanted and commit to that.<p>ULA, you are doing well. It is your W that has the problem. She is going to have to fix it, or she will lose you. I think you are more important to her than you realize or she would have left years ago.<p>Hang in there and God Bless,<p>JL