Hi,
Originally this post started out with MOF seeking suggestions on how to deal with conflict between XOM and his W, with regards to OC.

Somehow this changed to somewhat bashing of OP. I am the BS, but do not approve of OP bashing, even thougth sometimes I have my venting moments, which are stemmed from frustration of the A. I do not hold her responsible for my H's decision. She is responsible for her decision.

I visit the PG/C site to gain insite. I don't know if there is an OC. I have speculated that it is possible, so I come here to learn how others deal with it, just in case.......

I have accepted responsiblitly for my part in my M not being a good M. I also understand how the WS can become one. I did not stray, but I considered it, there was a point I was very miserable in my M. I considered finding someone else and maintaining my M. What stopped me was the love I have for my children and the respect I had for my M. I made a promise and I knew if I broke that promise I would hate myself. Because I considered it, I understand how it could happen. I understand how my H may have strayed. My H's A is not confirmed out of my choice at this point in my life. If he is having an A, it is with a former OP. Which is why I speculate, is the connection a child that he is trying to keep from me. (I would not put it past him). I know my h and I know what he is capable of trying to pull off. When the time is right, I will find out and I will have the answers I seek.

I strayed from my original post. MOF was looking for suggestions and at some point it appeared as if this thread changed from her getting suggestions to OW's being condemed.

I have read many of posts from former OW's and they are sincere in their posts with regards to their R., not necessarily the R with the WH, but with their own because they were the WS. I myself find it very helpful to read posts from OW's and former OW's. I don't find it as a trigger to my own pain in my R. I feel I can learn from them. Our WS tell them things that they are afraid to tell us. You can learn from the insight they have to give. Those like MOF and CMiranda I've noticed are very sincere in their replies, why not learn from them.

And I think it is time for this post to return to the original topic at hand.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> posted August 19, 2002 07:36 PM
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MO5,

quote:
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I am constantly told I shouldnt be here .. but no one has given me a valid reason why.
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Allow me, if you will, to give a reason to you.
Without meaning it, you say things that insight BS here.
Such as how insecure OM/W is , that you're sure she calls while MM is out of town to see if you're home.

That you profess to know sooo much of how MM's personality is and how "she's" put up w/it for so long. Like you are the only one who knows things about him and you're coming off as ridiculing the W. As if she's a dummy for putting up with such.
Then from the other side of your mouth it's all about you and MM's D.

If he's so dawggone awful, why bother bringing your whole family into the guy's life?

For biology?

It seems you have a passive-aggressive relationship w/ your H, MM/W.
You've written several times how you wish they weren't involved in your life.

Maybe none of them should.

Maybe you and your H and still-to-young-to-remember D would be better off having seperate lives. Seperate married lives and quit mixing it all together for a D who will not gain a positive thing from the looks of things so early on.

As far as starting another riot goes...please remember what Steve Harley himself told me some months ago.

To regain the union of marriage after such a horrible ordeal, forego visitation. It's the best way for a marriage to heal w/o constant riff-raff and arguments.

Those are some reasons for you to leave.

A new person may feel too frightened to tell their honest feelings.

In early stages it's just too awful to even consider visitation.

Just wanted you to know what others feel...not about YOU, but ow in general.

So...post away if you must, just don't expect us to be happy about things you say of MM/W or MM.

Debi </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hey no offense but I am a wayard spouse just as your husband is and the other husbands here there is no difference. why should it bother you what I say about mm didnt he do the same thing I did.. It bothers you because I know him so well.. we spent more time together than with our spouses for many years, how could we not know everything about each other, he is the same way he knows me and knows what I am going to say before I say it. I do him as well.

I cant just forego visitation, he is my daughters father and he loves her.. we all have problems here and there and sometimes need to vent. Not a big deal really.
I should leave because I might scare others away.. why what am I saying that is so scary it is all the truth.. it has only to do with my life and my roblems, I am sure while some may not want to talk to me , there are others that dont mind and are able to seperate my life from theirs and not see it as a threat.
I dont think he is so dog gone aweful, but he does have his quirks, but it isnt my choice to have him in our life or not, My daughter deserves to know who she is and he loves her, I will deal with things as they come.
I dont think she is a dummy, but I also dont think it is my job to entertain this woman everytime her husband leaves town and I dont have to .. why would I want to ? I do not make this about me, it is about my daughter,, but when his wife constantly invites her self into my life, I have a right to say I dont want so much of it.. My husband doesnt want her calling here and emailing us all the time.

Yes sometimes I wish he wasnt in our lives, we all have days like that.. if I did not it wouldnt be normal, but they pass and we move past.

No sorry gem.. I still dont think you gave me a good enough reason. But thank you for trying.

I am not sure what you mean by seperate married lives, but I have no plans to uproot my self or my children any time soon, but thank you for the advice, I do appreciate the support.
ok this thread has turned sour once again,
this was not a thread to start a debate it was a thread because I was trying to work out a problem, so if you dont like what I say dont post to me.. it is really very simple.

I am sorry that you and a few others dont like what I have to say but I am sorry I do not post any thing but the truth if that bothers you dont read my post..

I do not have to be critisized just because my opinion differs from yours. why must that be an issue with you every single time.
have a nice evening

FOR those of you who responded about the situation on hand . Thank you.. I appreciate it. I was concerned and still am to a point.
I understand the hurt of a betrayed spouse, I am not knew to this.. but when I vent I am only talking about me.. not any one else, please do not react that way it does not help any of us.

I learn from many bs's on here and one or two whom I consider a great source of comfort and learning.

I have bad days when dealing with this is very hard and I want to stop.. I have others that things are great and I dont mind at all.
I learn from all on here and no if I have a complaint about his wife.. it is not meant to hurt you.. and just because she is a bs does not mean she isnt at times loony herself. I am sure she has bad days as well and that is why i Work so hard to try and be kind to her. But somedays I need to gripe on here, it keeps me from griping to my husband.. it keeps me from calling other man and griping at him.. so that is why I do it, it also keeps me from telling her just what I think sometimes.

and the end result is at home my husband and I are not cranky with each other and can discuss things with out getting angry, we are learning to be more open and honest with each other.. I dont lb at home. and that is good for my marriage and my children.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If anything, it would be more like signing up to ruin your very own life. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WHAT A TRUE STATEMENT CMIRANDA

But we should all know that we can fix those ruined lives...
I know if I dont stay married I will have learned a lot and I am still happy with my self and knowing I tried to save my marriage.

you know today my husband wrote a nice note for me before he left work.. been a while since he has done things like that. very sweet.

Hi MOF,

One thing I noticed when I first read about your situation was that this is a tough one. You being both WS and BS, having OC with MM. You were honest with H about baby. All of you have shown great maturity in trying to be involved in D's life. This cannot be easy and at time very frustating so you do need to vent so you don't LB or find yourself venting to OM as you stated.

In my post when I have my moments of frustration I am told to go ahead and vent, this is the place for it. You should be told the same. So, I will say it. Go ahead and vent, so you don't LB your H. Working on your M is a priority in your life.

As I said at the beginning, it takes a great deal of maturity on everyones part to handle this sort of situation, especially in the best interest of your D.

"I know in my A, we never, or I should say rarely, discussed the M relationship or the BS. Very rarely to practically never."

And, it is thus, by ignoring the very existence of a dear sister woman that we are able to participate in inflicting the worst pain she will ever know.

This turning our backs to the inevitable pain our actions will likely produce for another woman is dehumanizing to ourselves ... and to the woman ignored.

Where is the sisterhood? Where is the love?

We are sisters. We should care for and love one another ... and if we can't do that ...at the very least we should acknowledge each other's existence!

The love we have expressed for all children ... (no matter the circumstances of their birth) ... can be extended to love for all mankind. If we love children ... we love adults, who were once children.

This woman we can never or rarely discuss ... exists, breathes, loves, hurts, has needs ... and we ignore her .... why?

WHY "rarely to practically never"?

The essence of our goodness .... our connection to each other as women ... our obligation to God ... is to love one another as you would be loved ... is there no value to that?

I do not understand this position CM. I am totally at a loss to understand the inability to "see" another woman .... to what purpose?

WHY was she out of your conscious thoughts?

This is important FOR YOU .... and I pray your heart softens and feels compassion for the woman you did not care to see.

Pepper

As I asked before, may we bring this topic back to the original subject.

By all means, ask your questions of others, but maybe those should be a new topic?

MOF was and maybe still is looking for suggestions on how to deal with a particular situation.

Thanks

Sue with Hope ... you are correct. thank you for pointing that out. I appreciate it.

I apologize to MO5 for expressing my off topic views and straying from her chosen topic.

Pepper.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Pepperband:
[QB]"I know in my A, we never, or I should say rarely, discussed the M relationship or the BS. Very rarely to practically never."

And, it is thus, by ignoring the very existence of a dear sister woman that we are able to participate in inflicting the worst pain she will ever know.

PB,

Sue with Hope is right, it is time to return to Mo5 original issue; yet you make an excellent point and I feel compelled to respond very briefly.

It may seem like I ignored her existence from where you are sitting. The term in my case was not ignore but deny. I did deny her existence, I struggled to maintain that denial. For 6 1/2 years and then some, I struggled with maintaining a state of mind where she was concerned; push any thought of her right out. If they creeped in, I pushed them out, for me and my sanity. It was a requirement for staying with the man I loved and letting him continue to love me.

Harsh..yes but the truth.

CM

<small>[ August 19, 2002, 09:40 PM: Message edited by: CMiranda ]</small>

C MIranda, I must respond. You say you never consider yourself a perpetrator to your MM's wife. I think you are in massive denial. It is true that you and other WS, my H included,start the A thinking only of themselves, and deciding to enter into an affair, with all the risks inherent in it, is intrinsically self damaging and risk taking. But to think your actions are not damaging to the relationship you had with your spouse, or the spouse of the oP, is absurd. You did not think of your MM's wife because to do so I think would perhaps have caused you to stop the A. My own H admits he was not thinking of me nor our 3 kids when he was in his affair , one that lasted years. He thinks he remained the attentive husband, the responsible father, the loving partner, the loving father. In reality, he spent time away from all of us not thinking of us at all. And thinking he would get away from hurting us. He would have gotten what he wanted-an affair without hurting us-except for the existence of the OC. His presence ruined it for him.

I think you need to look at your own self, and see how widely your A has affected people, for your own healing.

When a crime occurs, the significant others of the alleged victim are also affected by the crime. It is not unlike the significant others of affair partners--each participant in the affair has hurt a wide group of people, and that includes all parties.
Just my humble opinion.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong>...
And, it is thus, by ignoring the very existence of a dear sister woman that we are able to participate in inflicting the worst pain she will ever know.

This turning our backs to the inevitable pain our actions will likely produce for another woman is dehumanizing to ourselves ... and to the woman ignored...
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">yes... AND "criminal." I agree...

If your friend leaves their gun at your home and you decide to return it to them but along your way you accidentally shoot someone and they die. You are a criminal regardless of the intent. You are a criminal because of the outcome, not the intent. We (xOWs) are perpetrators because of the outcome of our actions. I do have to agree with this. We need to step out of denial and call it what it is... Take responsibility regardless of whether we (xOWs) were single, married, abused, or mistreated by whomever at the time of the affair.

Just because a person doesn't intend to disobey God's commandments doesn't make them innocent on Judgment Day.

If a judge didn't punish a murderer, just let them go free, wouldn't he be considered an unjust judge???

When I came to MB and read about and realized the pain and anguish I caused to the wife of the MM, I was transformed... If I had met her, I don't believe I could have gone through with the A. I believe the BS is pushed out of the OP's consciousness due to pure selfishness.

<small>[ August 20, 2002, 06:05 AM: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</small>

So my point is, we can all spend the rest of our lives in this jail OR we can just set each other free. We are all living in the hell of our own thoughts daily in our own personal lives. We get to choose which ones we will allow to permeate our attitudes. We can be better through this, we don't have to respect each other's decisions, but we can at least respect that we are all paying for our "crimes" in our own personal ways because God is a just God. We reap what we sow. OC's are innocent, we all agree with that. However, even in SAA, Dr. Harley points out that unfortunately, there are three people who contribute in some way to the affair--OW, WS, and the BS.

UW,
I still do not feel I am a perp in MM marriage. Nor is he in mine. I am solely responsible to my H as he is to his W. I made no promise to her before God or anyone else. That is how I see it.
My promises were to my H and that is where I am negligent. In my own relationship, I had no relationship with her. If she had been my friend, that would be different.
I never, ever said my A with MM wasn't damaging to either of our marriages. What I am saying is that he is soley responsible for the damage to his M, as I am for the damage in mine. I made choices affecting my M, not MM. I chose to be there with MM. Therefore, I chose to turn away from my H. Likewise, MM did the same and he is solely responsible for the risks he took and any fallout thereof.
I understand that victims and their families are affected by crimes against them. I am not going to get into a debate over that.
I think you are drawing an erroneous parallel between an affair, where there were 2 consenting adults making choices, high risk perhaps, but still consenting, and crime, whether felony or misdeameanor, whereby the criminal makes a choice to commit an unlawful act, and is cognizant of the punishment; of the fact that there will be a punishment of some sort. There are also many rules to apply and criteria to meet, when determining what type of offense has been committed before an accused can be charged. Those are the aggravating factors. Afterward, the mitigating factors are considered.
If you want to talk about criminal intent and call me a criminal, lets talk about the mitigating factors as well and not blindly focus on the aggravating circumstances as only you see them.

<small>[ August 20, 2002, 08:38 AM: Message edited by: CMiranda ]</small>

BTDT,
You have every right to discuss how you react and feel but please make no assumptions about me. I did not push anyone out of my consciousness first of all.
You speak an awful lot about God yet I have found many inconsistencies with your statements since I've been on this site, in comparison to what I have been taught in my church (which is Christian btw) over the years. So pardon me if I don't respond to your judgement warnings and view on what God has intended for us. I'm not about to get into a religious arguement here.
Affairs are like marriages in that each one is different, the people are different, the breakdown of the marriage is not the same in all cases. I take responsibility for me. Do not mistake that for not taking responsibility at all.
Once again I will tell you that denial has no part in my feeling that I am not responsible for my MM choices and broken promises to his W. Nor is he responsible for my actions and decisions. That is my humble opinion.

CM

SOOOO Today all my kids[you know the rack I have at home] are in school, and life is once again very quiet at home. How about the rest of you.. has school started ? My little one will be at bible clas all morning, so I get to work and not have to stop to play every ten min. although I do enjoy playtime.

My husbands grandfather passed away so he will be flying out of state tomorrow.. I wish I could go, but we have too many things to take care of here. so it will be a nice visit for husband he has not been home in ten years..[they are not close]

I am making a special dinner for him and kids tonight so he will have a pleasant memory when he is away.

My 8 year old is loving school, she doesnt do well with change and she has worked really hard the last two days.. may seem silly to most but for this little girl it is a huge accomplishment. we are very proud of her. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

cmiranda how is that little one doing ? I know he is young so I bet he is doing new things all the time. Isnt it funny how they grow so fast. My sweet angel is not so little any more, she changes each day.. now if we could just get that potty training down. I will be one happy camper.
she has quite a personality, makes us all laugh all the time.

Every one have a good day today and think happy thoughts <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ August 20, 2002, 08:49 AM: Message edited by: mom of five ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">One thing I noticed when I first read about your situation was that this is a tough one. You being both WS and BS, having OC with MM. You were honest with H about baby. All of you have shown great maturity in trying to be involved in D's life. This cannot be easy and at time very frustating so you do need to vent so you don't LB or find yourself venting to OM as you stated.

In my post when I have my moments of frustration I am told to go ahead and vent, this is the place for it. You should be told the same. So, I will say it. Go ahead and vent, so you don't LB your H. Working on your M is a priority in your life.

As I said at the beginning, it takes a great deal of maturity on everyones part to handle this sort of situation, especially in the best interest of your D.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">sue thank you for your support I do appreciate it.
I am sure we will work it out. This is just one of the down falls to an affair, maybe someone else will learn from my mistakes and take a different path. Goodness knows I never thought I would choose such a path.

<small>[ August 20, 2002, 09:02 AM: Message edited by: mom of five ]</small>

You know they say there is always two sides to every story. If you only hear one side, well then you dont get the whole story, now do you......

BS and WS... now that would be BOTH sides of the equation now wouldnt it???

I'm sorry if there are BS on here that feel uncomfortable by the presence of us WS that are here, but that IS the reality of the situation now isnt it.

There are many things a BS can learn from a WS just as there are many thing a WS can learn from a BS. We may not always like what we hear "from the other side of the fence", but there is so much to learn from each other.

I am not just a FWS, I was a BS before that. And I'll be damned if ANYONE is going to tell me that I dont belong here. We ALL belong here.. cause as I said... without both sides of the equation, then you dont have the full story.

If people would for just one minute take down the fence that divides the sides, and looked at each other as PEOPLE, as humans with feelings things might go a little smoother here.

I am a BS, I am FWS, but no matter what LABEL you want to place on me, I am a human being, and therefore deserve the respect for at least being human. WE ALL DO!

There are things I see posted that make me angry, things that make me happy, things that make me sad, but most of all.. everything I read on here makes me think. I dont always agree with what people have to say.... but if we could learn to respectfully agree to disagree it would be a much better experience for everyone that comes here.

Bottom line is we ALL belong here, WS and BS.... dont you think it's about time we all learned how to get along and interact with each other? The WS arent going anywhere and neither should the BS. Learn from each other... even if you can't sympathize, you can at least empathize with any given situation.

And thats my 2 cents on that whole thing.....

MO5... I say stay out of the middle of it and let them figure it out. You know they will have something figured out, even if it's just for appearances sake by the time of the birthday party anyway. But I would make it clear that they need to settle their differences, and preferably not in front of the child either. You and your H have agreement about not getting in the middle of it... tell them they need to come to an agreement before EITHER of them sees the child again. You shouldnt have to be put in the middle of it and neither should the child. Just my 2 cents on that..... (((hugs))))

M05,
I was happy to see your upbeat post this morning. I hope that things are settling down regarding the conflict over visitation. I'm sure you are happy to have a quiet home once again even though you adore your children!
I'm sorry about your husband's grandfather. My SIL's mother passed on recently too. Its these times more than ever that make many of us think about what is really important in our lives.
Speaking of that, my little peanut is doing wonderfully. The terrible two's aren't so terrible after all; maybe I should knock on wood or something..! He makes me laugh everyday of my life, with that gift I have been truly blessed.
Enjoy your special dinner tonight with the family <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

thank you alc
I agree with you and will make sure my husband and I are clear with them on this issue, they do this with each other on a weekly basis and have for years, one day they dont speak for a week, next they are fine, I just dont want him to drag me in to make his points, it doesnt help him or me.. just will make her angry .

He and I talked at lenght last night and are working on changing a few things. who knows..

If only I had had that crystal ball all those years ago. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

CMiranda,

Didnt anyone ever tell you that the "terrible two's" is just an old tale..... what they dont tell you about is the "horrible threes"...lol.

All three of mine never had the terrible two's syndrome, but each one of them did the horrible three's and the youngest just turned three and the fun has begun! LOL!

Having the other two in school is NICE... it's so quiet.....I love it!

Anyway... take care and talk to you soon!

Ann