Dear Mom of 5,

You mentioned in a recent post that you make some decisions for the sake of your daughter not because of the adults involved. You have mentioned that before and it is quite a selfless position.

My H and I no longer have visitation with the OC because of the behaviour of the ex-OW. The drama became too intense and my H could no longer tolerate it. I have always felt ambivalent about his choice because I have concerns about the OC and her future, but, of course, it is much easier not dealing with the ex-OW.

The ex-OW and I do not get along because we have two completely different personalities. However, I have always believed that my contract for fidelity was with my H and held him completely accountable for the A and the OC. I have completely forgiven my H and moved into a much improved phase of our life together.

But, when I tried to deal with the ex-OW, my H and I were met with hostility and her desire to continue to manipulate every situation. She has never wanted me involved in her child's life. She believed that my H would have a separate, parallel life with her and the OC.

While your situation is not the same, from what you have said, I think some of the feelings may be the same. It is so hard to always pretend to be nice when you are confronted with a woman that you would rather not see.

You manage to suppress your feelings, be polite to the W and basically keep on a good face for the sake of your daughter. Is there a secret to achieving this type of selflessness or is it just a simple conscious decision to put up with whatever they throw at you by keeping your daughter in focus.

How did you get to the point where all adults are looking at the best interests of the child? I would love to have all adults in my situation (including me) put aside their petty feelings but it has not happened yet.

I would appreciate any tips.
heavenly

Well, Heavenly, it takes an honest, sincere effort from ALL parties. As long as OW remains hostile and manipulative, you will most likely continue to harbor ill feelings towards her. It’s a two way street. I wanted peace for my son and xMM wanted to be a part of his son’s life, so I made a strong effort to forge a decent relationship with xMM and his W. I HAD to see that it wasn’t about me at all. It was about my son and doing for him. It was not easy-going. I had to make a conscious effort. But, with time, it was no longer an effort…it just was. I am very appreciative of that.

OB1

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You manage to suppress your feelings, be polite to the W and basically keep on a good face for the sake of your daughter. Is there a secret to achieving this type of selflessness or is it just a simple conscious decision to put up with whatever they throw at you by keeping your daughter in focus.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I go to my room and cry my self to sleep on some nights I dont have her here. I have not fully dealt with this. when it first started I was scared om's w anger for me would show to my baby or she would hurt her or be mean to her.. I was terrified. OM assured me he would never leave her alone with her, till I was comfortable and he didnt.
I still miss my baby when she is gone, but I no longer fear his wife will hurt her, she has proven she loves my daughter. I also never showed any thing but politeness when we have had to meet.. ever, I dont yell argue or cry in front of them, I just give them info.
When I first started to let her go..she cried because she didnt want to leave me, it broke my heart and I started crying I was so angry with my self because I am sure that scared daughter even more.. om's w even cried. I vowed I would never ever make her feel that way again and sense my feelings towards these people and she hasnt.

My daughter needs to know that she is loved by us all and she has the right to love us all and yes that includes his wife as long as she is in the picture my daughter will be around her.

I love my daughter more than I hate his wife or anything else.. D is what matters, not my feelings.
I will still cry sometimes, but in my room where the kids dont see it. I pray every day to give me strength to handle this the way it should be for my daughter.

My daughter needs to feel safe that she can ask about daddy or his wife any day she wants and know it is ok and it wont make mommy sad or upset.. I would never say anything out loud about his wife or something derrogatory about his wife or him in front of any of my children, I expect all my children to be respectful to them at all times

The main thing that has helped that is om and I are on the same page with most of this and we all came to aggreements together and he respects me as a mother and makes sure that every one in his family does as well. It was decided that before he came out in the open .. we would not have some silly struggle with this mess and make daughter hear and see garbage that happens so often, but it can only work if all parties try.
although husband and I get frustrated like the other day when they were fighting I was concerned about my daughter. They have times they go home and are frustrated as well, but when we come together for daughter we put the baggage aside and focus on her.
It was hard to let my daughter go because I had spent years hearing horror stories from om about his wife.. My mental image of her was so disturbing I had to learn to move past that.

If there is a big enough issue and I fear a fight might start with his wife, I call om and speak with him.. she knows we talk about daughter at times and has assured me she knows it is needed.
She and I talk about d some as well.

I dont think every one can do this, I give her a great amount of respect for dealing with me, I know it isnt always pleasant.. But because she has shown respect to me as d's mother, I learned to give respect back.. it is alot easier to do that if two people are trying. But it took her a while, I had to work my butt off being nice before she came through and started trying as well.

ok I have strayed.. sorry helps to talk about it.

some tips for the ow/with oc
Be aware this is difficult for this woman to see you and the child.

2. Be polite and show respect, address her first and then her husband. NEVER EVER SAY ANYTHING BAD ABOUT ANY PARTIES IN FRONT OF CHILD.

3. Make sure you relay child care info to her while the father listens.. most times it will be her caring for the child. not always but alot.

4. Never make mention of any thing personal about your self or her husband. it is rude and disrespectful and will make her resent you more.

5. Understand most would not be asking to see your child if they were not intrested in loving that child, it is too hard of work to fake it. If they are faking, they will cease contact very soon.

6. Try and compromise on some things so you dont make them feel you are runnning the show.

7. Do not gripe about petty stuff like they brought her home ten min. late, who cares she is home safe , say thank you and goodnight.

Ok For bs [something that might help ease tension so you dont have the garage around you.
1. Understand this woman is a mother and remember your mothering instincts.. we are tigers when it comes to our children. ASK questions about her care, make her see you are intrested in her child and want to do what is best.

2. Try and respect if she has certain boundries that you know of, like if she doesnt want them to have certain things, it is better for baby if parents have some of the same rules, back each other up on them. Try and respect bed time rituals, it isnt doing what the ow wants it is keeping that baby ona schedule and babies thrive on stability.

3.Know that when a mother is away from her child she misses the child, make a nice gesture, send an email, letting mother know she ate a good dinner and yall are having a good time. what can it hurt, it takes a min.. and mother goes to bed not as upset and in turn, learns to show respect back.

4. when you say or do something in front of her or with her child, remember how you would feel if this were your child and act in the same way.

5. ask if baby is doing something new.. ask if she has any new foods she may like, share a funny story about something baby did. and try and put the mother at ease.

6. while she is a person you do not like, if you are involved with your husband child, you will want to love that baby because she is your husbands baby, just dont forget that mother loves her/him as well.
7. NEVER EVER MAKE ANY BAD REMARKS ABOUT ANY PARTIES IN FRONT OF CHILD.
while not ideal, some of these things go along way to making a better relationship.. none are trouble free, but these are things we do.

I dont know if any of these help and I hope no one is offended by them, this is just how we do it, I bet others have some good tips..

Dear OB and Momof5,

One of the things that my H told me during one of our talks about how to handle the OC situation was that he can separate the OC from the ex-OW. He can love his daughter and care for her without linking her to her mother. OB you said that you had to realize it was not about YOU, but about your son.

Both of you seem, though, to have been able to swallow your pride and make the effort for the good of the children. Mothers are fierce creatures -- we protect our young like tigers just as Momof5 said. I guess one of my problems is that since the child is not mine, I don't have as much motivation to make her happy as I would if she was my own.

I bear no malice towards the OC. Unfortunately, she is a carbon copy of her mother -- no features of my H at all. But I learned to cope with that already.

Her mother would do all the things that Momof5 just said were the worst possible things -- make remarks about me, criticize my H and I, make the child feel she was disloyal for wanting to know her father's wife, etc.

Her mom's problem is simple -- she is in love with my H and she keeps hoping that our marriage will fade away and that he will make them a full-time family. When I was insecure, I resented her relentlessness. Now, I feel sorry for her and sad that my H caused her so much pain.

I wish that more people could understand where affairs lead -- no one won anything in this one. It nearly destroyed a marriage and the ex-OW did not get what she bargained for either. She is raising a child alone and she comes from a religious family that has completely ostracized her for having the child.

My H and I have worked out our problems, we are stronger and more committed, and I no longer feel that she is a threat to me or my family. But, she seems so unwilling to put on that polite front for the sake of her daughter.

I do understand that the ex-OW might fear that I would -- not harm the child -- but perhaps be indifferent or mean to her. But, I did do my best to support my H, to show affection towards the child, the same that I would to any other. I simply adore children and wish I had been able to have a house full of them.

I guess the bottom line here is that there is not much I can do if the main adult -- the mother -- does not want to make an effort. This whole situation is so difficult for everyone involved. I feel bad for the OC and just wish that there was a better solution.

As school opens and fall is around the corner, I start thinking of the Holidays that will be upon on us soon. My mind always turns to a solution for the OC situation at this time of year. I have always dreamed that one day my H could have all his children together for a celebration. The situation is more complicated this year as we approach the anniversary of the loss of our twins. I am in an extremely emotional state so if I don't make sense sometimes, please forgive me for rambling.

Thank you for offering some excellent things to remember when dealing with an ex-OW. I may try to get my H to speak with her. Thanks again.

love,
heavenly

Mo5 wrote and I quote: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I love my daughter more than I hate his wife or anything else.. D is what matters, not my feelings. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not to be stirring up anymore [censored] in the sun, but why do you hate MM's wife? What has she done to you? I don't recall reading in your past posts that she did anything to you, if she did could you send me the link to the post so I can understand your statement? Or am I taking it out of context?

I am tired of Ex-Ws's and EX-OW's telling us BS's that we are "bitter and angry" when ex-Ws's and Ex-Bs's "hate" their MM's wives etc. etc.

It's ok to have those feelings if they work for you, but I feel that it should apply to all, we own and control our own feelings and I am not fond of my ex-ow...borderline hate? I can't because my faith doesn't allow it.

I'm not trying to stir up trouble, but I am genuinely trying to understand that statement...if her crime is just being married to the MM, then why hate her for that? If she annoys you because she's trying to make the best of a destructive situation, why hate her? Please clarify as I have always read what you wrote with much thought....Please explain this to me....

Thanks, and Hugs,
Twiisty

It is just an expression.. and not mean to rile any one, I will not get into some crap about his wife or what she has done to me or not done to me,
It just means I love my daughter and all my personal feelings should be put aside.
geez,, get a grip people I am so sick of this

It means that because I love my daughter I can put all the things she said she would do to my child when I was pregnant, it means I can put aside all the terrible things mm told me about her,that she prooved most to be true.. I said most not all. It just means I love my daughter and I am sharing her and doing the best I can. It means when his wife does annoying things like call me constantly and and writing us , my husband, my children, I ignore it most of the time and let it go, Because I love my daughter more than I hate her..[would it make you feel better if I said dislike, ] It is just an expression and not meant as an insult to any one.]
It means I can smile and get along for my childs sake, BECAUSE I LOVE MY BABY.

It means nothing more than that.. if it offends you I am sorry.
Is it because he is married to her???? NO I feel sorry for her in that respect.. she has been married ten years and he was with someone when he married her and continued for a few months. then he was committed for a year or so and then spent the next few years with me.. why hate her, it is a sad life for her, her husband still is the same and will not change.

I do not post all the things about there personal life, because I dont think that would be fair to them, so I am sorry if you do not understand. I will not be posting on this thread again and i will not be arguing with any one.

This was only in reguard to visitation and that is all. It just means I put my personall feelings aside for her so my daughter can have a good relationship with her.
Just as MM puts his feelings for my husband aside most of the time, he hates my husband, but ignores it, other than the occasional, why dont you leave him speech.
I am not talking about you as a betrayed spouse only me and my life, so it is time to stop taking it personal and leave it at that.

<small>[ August 23, 2002, 10:53 AM: Message edited by: mom of five ]</small>

Maryjanes,
would be nice if we all had a crystal ball before we make decisions.. but we dont and we cant change the past. You right affairs are devistating to all. It hurt My husband , My children and family and yes it hurt me. I did it to my self and shall have to take responsibility for it.
It hurt his wife, his grown children, her grown child and yes he hurt him self as well.
We cant change our past , we cant erase the years we were together and betraying oUR OWN. But we can move forward and make the best of it. Thats all any one can do. I think you have tried to make the best of it and you cant make something work if all parties dont want it to work. Just can not happen, if both sides are not in agreement.

Shame the mother is not able to put her feelings aside for her child. I think if people can not do that it would be best to have no contact because they are just hurting the child with the turmoil.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This was only in reguard to visitation and that is all. It just means I put my personall feelings aside for her so my daughter can have a good relationship with her. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hon....I ain't offended and do not take this personally...I just wanted you to clarify some things that's all. I understand that with the tension on the board lately, that you would be defensive and please know that my post was not intended to rile you up.

As for the points you posted, I have done several of them and attest to the fact that they work when dealing with my ex-husband and his wife. His wife took the time to ask me about the girl's schedules etc. and what you wrote is correct in that. Like I said before, I always read your posts with much thought and appreciate some of the things that you write also. I wasn't trying to rile up anyone...

You have a right to your feelings and to vent about your personal situations as we, the betrayeds do too...that's all that I was pointing out.

I hope you have a great day, again, I just wanted to clarify.

Hugs,
Twiisty

For me, heavenly, I do not want contact with OC because his existence really has nothing to do with me, and yet, has everything to do with me.

The OW chose to have her son because she wanted him.THen she expects me and my family to change everything in our life because of her decision.

I could not be as Mom of five and her ex MM and his wife are. I do not think I could love the OC as my own.He would never be that to me-rather represents pain beyond measure.

I also wonder, despite how well MOm of five has handled all this, how weird their relationships with MM and his wife and Mom of five and her husband. I know I certainly would not want to be talking or seeing regularly the woman who participated in my life's destruction as I know it. I cannot separate the child from the mother. Further, I must admit there is a part of me that wonders if Mom of five's entourage of relatives now aren't a bit enmeshed-she knows things about the marriage of ex MM that I am not convinced she should know, even for benefit of her daughter with MM. It smacks of dysfunctional enmeshment in psychological terms.

Just my thoughts

Dear UW,

I have experienced many of the feelings you have in the past. After discovering the A and learning about the OC, it is very natural to view them together -- as an inseparable pair. For a very long time, I thought that my H's desire to see the OC meant that he was still pining for the OW.

But I have noticed a huge difference in how my H thinks and I think about this situation. My H was a serial liar. He was bored with his life, himself, and he made up a new person for the OW. He openly admitted the many things that he told the OW which were completely untrue and admitted that he led her to believe they could have a future together.

But, when the OW became pregnant, it made my H face up to himself and what he had done to his marriage. If it had not been for that defining moment in my H's life, he might be even worse today.

Just Learning said on another post that an OC can be an opportunity. In my case, the OC was the catalyst that made my H stop evading his problems and start dealing with them.

My H is a responsible man. I have held him accountable for everything he did and he has also held himself accountable. He does not see the OC as a means to get close to the OW -- she is out of the picture. But, he carries with him so much emotional baggage about the OC.

He feels guilty that he led the OW on, made promises to her that he never intended to keep, and basically created a very difficult life for her as a single mother. He loved her but he is "in love" with me. He also feels guilty that he helped create a child that he never intended to raise. He pays CS, but he knows that the child may have emotional issues later in life.

The OC, and his responsibility, really don't have anything to do with the OW. The shame here is that it took me so many years to come to this understanding and to agree to meet my H's emotional need to have visitation only to have the entire thing derailed because the OW is not on board with the idea.

I am grateful that our marriage means so much to my H, that he refuses to put me through any more trauma by playing games with the OW, but at the same time, I can't help but think of this girl who -- as you said -- means nothing to me but is so involved in my life at the same time.

Could I ever love her like my own children? Probably not. But if you soften your heart there is enough love for everyone. A mother's love for her children is always a very special love. But you can love other children as well -- your relatives', friends' children.

My stumbling block was always feeling that my H would love the OC more than he loved me. Now I look back at that feeling and think I must have been out of my mind. I actually tried to compare the love between a husband and wife, with love for a child.

Now, I feel that the love my H and I share is strong enough to allow me to open my heart to his OC. Our willingness to meet each other's needs is stronger than our fears. I have forgiven him and given up my right to continue hurting him just because he hurt me.

It takes such a long time to get to this point. But UW, if you and your H want it, you can do it. The OC is painful to you, that I completely understand. But, don't let the OC take over your entire life. That child is just one part of the many things -- some good, some bad -- that will happen to you throughout this crazy adventure called life.

I wish I could hug you, UW. I feel the pain and betrayal that you still feel inside you and I could just cry for you. I hate to see you stuck in this place. But, there are no easy answers or right answers.

Visitation is not for everyone. But, I just want you to be at peace with the idea that the OC exists and not to let that knowledge ruin one moment of the happiness you have with your H and your children. That's what I pray for you.

love,
heavenly

Heavenly, it is so nice to see you posting again. I have missed you.

I actually am doing better than I have been. My H this summer has tried to do much to reconnect to me-being more affectionate, loving, and not lying to me. I still hold back from him a bit, as this A and OC still hurts a lot. He took a lot away from our life via his stupidity and recklessness, and it will take a lot of time to regain that from me. He knows it, too.

ON my hand, I am doing more things he has wanted from me. I believe his connection to OW is less.

But I Must admit, not having visitation is the glue working with us. I cannot conceptualize having visitation in my life. The existence of the OC is so horrifying and humiliating to me, it is beyond consideration in my world. Not having visitation has allowed us to work on us, and keep our family together.WE have enough to keep together, without incorporating the OC.

Thanks always for your comments. ANd I felt hugged today by you.

<small>[ August 24, 2002, 02:16 PM: Message edited by: unhappy wife ]</small>

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{heavenly}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

A hug for Heavenly!

Heavenly, you know the answers and gave them to me already... and you were RIGHT!! ;-) Our XOW has broken Mof5's recommendations and so has yours, and however sad it is, we don't have to feel guilty for not playing with the devil (which is NOT to say all XOP are demons, but that some people allow evil to flow through them like water).

Mof5, thank you for writing these recommendations and I'm sorry others didn't add on to them rather than run off onto other things--Your recommendations should be SAVED somewhere for the good of all who ever struggle on this board!!!!!!!

Dear Jenny,

We posted at the same time. Thank you for reminding me that guilt is a useless emotion. You have to think carefully, make your decision, and then move on.

As you well know, it is just so hard when there is a child involved. I know the xOW loves her daughter. She truly does not see what she is doing to the child by making a relationship difficult.

Please see my post under "Heavenly Comfort" by Catnip. I have a better update there on the whole situation.

So good to hear from you Jenny. You sound well and happy. Update us soon on what is going on with you and the situation that developed a whort while ago with your xOW and her rejection of your best efforts to keep communication open.

love,
heavenly

Dear Heavenly,

yep, posting at the same time! See other thread.

Latest story is simple. I asked XOW for OC update on deployed-H's behalf. After ignoring me for months despite my continued gifts to OC, she sent incredibly nasty email attacking me, our marriage, saying things sent to OC from me "do not count" for OC <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> (does this mean XOW throws them away, or tells OC something horrid like "it's Jenny's handwriting so you can't play with it" or <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> ?), only H should ask about OC, H is a big hero (ie she's still in-lust) and it's all my fault H doesn't see OC (HELLO--we're in another COUNTRY?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ) etc. etc.

Evil flowing like water; no more guilt. Sadness for H, for OC, even for XOW, yes, but not guilt.

PS. Heavenly, in all this time, have you guys told your living children @OC? Do they know, and if so, how do they feel about it? If not, at what age (if ever) do you think you'll tell them??

Hugs,
J

Dear Jenny,

I wanted to tell my children about OC, but my H has been adamant that he does not want them to know. I feel that since his entire family knows (my family knows nothing about it), that sooner or later someone will either slip or tell them intentionally to be mean (very dysfunctional family).

He should tell them now while explanations can be simple. They already have a step-sister and brother from my H's first marriage so they are used to having siblings who don't call me mom. I think most children adjust to difficult situations better than adults, as long as we set the right tone.

I fear that when my children are grown and they find out about the OC, they will resent the fact that their father hid it from them for so long. My H is too good a father to his children to create that sort of tension later in their relationship.

I am not sure of the exact reasons why he refuses to tell the kids. I have not been able to figure out if it is embarrassment or just a desire to keep our family completely sheltered from the situation.

Visits with the OC always consisted of taking her somewhere -- park, McDonald's, special events, etc. My feelings fluctuate on the situation. While I am sometimes glad that my family remains outside of the situation because of the obvious complications that it brings to my life, I also sometimes feel that we are still living an extension of the OW situation -- not being honest and carrying on a covert relationship now with the child.

What have you and your H decided on this issue?

love,
heavenly

Heavenly,

We intend to tell them eventually. Like you, I feel bad harboring a secret from my kids, but neither do I want to drag them through this drama at an early age.

H is especially NOT looking forward to it. He carries a LOT of shame into everything to do with A/OC. Our counselor the first year said not to tell our kids until there was more contact (visitation), or (if no visitation) when our kids are teens (the oldest is under 10). I dread either one, and I worry about how it could affect our adopted child.

The only good thing that came out of the A/OC disaster has been our drawing closer to God (esp. me:)). I wish DH would do moreso, because it is the only possible balm for all his shame.

I truly pity OC growing up under XOW--yours and mine. That low kind of envious, damaged person can't be best for the child. God help them.

How are you, Heavenly? Did you see my post to you on catnip's thread? (I am still so dismayed by your XOW!)

J