Jenny,

Why yes my dear, I consider you a friend. You always post with such clarity and compassion, not only to me but to everyone. I admire and respect your poise and thoughtfulness.

I too am shocked at his stupidity. But like I said earlier, he's got more growing to do. Thanks for your kind words. I will keep fighting the good fight!

BINthereDUNthat

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wonder if they just needed to get their own type of closure to everything? After all, he sounds like a caring person and he probably still genuinely cares for her as a human being whose life is completely OUT OF CONTROL and someone who genuinely NEEDS HELP!!!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Its a bittersweet quality about him. He does have such a compassion for human beings. Especially those who are in bad spots. I love him for that, but I wish he had a control pad that he could turn it off when it comes to women like her!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Still, and from a wife to a wife, I don't know if I could believe he actually told her "good (you're moving far away), now you don't need to contact me anymore." It doesn't make sense that if this was his attitude, that she would feel free to continually call him at such odd hours hoping to reach him without your knowledge. I don't know. I hope I'm wrong.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't believe that version of the conversation either. It probably went more like, "good, the distance between us is probably for the best!"

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hope it's just that because your H is a caring person, he cares for this human being. I remember when he struggled with your "Christian-like behavior" in this whole situation. Well, being a Christian doesn't mean you shouldn't recognize TOXIC people and stay the heck away from them!!!

When will the WS's get this?????</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are very right. He's always wanted to take the higher road with her. Treating her with respect and praying she would in turn treat us the same way. I guess he's gonna have to figure out within himself that he can't save them all. Being Christlike doesn't mean that you have to swim with all the sharks!

One of my H's biggest issues has always been that he does things without thinking through the consequenses. Mind you this has improved by volumes over the years. But he still slips now and then and makes bad choices. This being a big one.

BTDT, thanks for taking time to post to me. It was good hearing from you.

XTREME

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Considering the recency of your new pain - I think you were unbelievably cool and mature with the way you have handled Polland's post.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">why thank you. But I'm known for not letting it rip without much more of a push than what Polland gave. Many of my friends have always said that I'm remarkably resilient considering the things I've been through. I think we all grow thicker skin the longer we are in recovery!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But in my own opinion - despite what you or some posters think that Polland is polluted source of advise - she did say a couple of things there that you could learn from.

One is that - she made a clear point that WSs are the biggest liars in As.I know that part of rebuilding our marriage require that we learn to fully trust our spouses again but remember, lying is deeply ingrained in people who have had or continue to have As. What Im saying is - and this is not to rub salt against your wounds - that - painful as it is - you should recognize too your husband's full and true role in what seems like a dead A attempting resurrection.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you may have missed where I did in fact consider (and still have thoughts) that the contact may have in fact been an attempt to rekindle or resurrect an affair. By no means am I saying he is guilt free and a victim to her magic potion. But I do know one thing for sure ... I'll never really know. They have both lied to me in the past. She obviously whether a lie or not enjoyed saying the hurtful things she said to me. He has lied many times in the past regarding her so there is definately a history that may have well been repeated. So believe me, I walk with my eyes wide open!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Second - is that she gave you very good spying technics - from the POV of the OW (the
sending of the flowers with provocative message is a classic - i might try it myself!!).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Spying is good for some people. And believe me, I've done my fair share. But it is not something I'm proud of. I would much rather take a more passive eyes open approach. Following up on his version of where he was and who he speaks to. I find that when someone tells lies they often have a hard time keeping track. So I watch cell phone bills, look at the pager, check the email from time to time, check the drivers log from his job, ask about what happened in rehearsal and confirm with another member later in general conversation. Stuff like that. Plus the flowers thing wouldn't work ... he drives for a living!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Polland is giving you clues, tips and pointers - which you might hate -- but could be so useful.Since she might as well be your own H's OW, you are at least in a position of knowing thy enemy -- cant you see, having a window in OW's mind can make you defend your marriage better. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No disrespect intended. But I don't care to get to deep into the OW's mind. She is not my issue. I need to work on my marriage. I need to get to the point where OW can be butt naked on a bed, legs wide open and my H can walk by her and throw her a blanket and toss her $10 for a cab! Only my husband and I can make that happen. There's nothing she can do to facilitate that. What good does knowing what makes her tick help me and my husband? It's not a competition. I'm not trying to be like her. Sure she had qualities that drew my H to her ... but my job is to communicate with my H to find those things out. Not psycho analize her to then mimic her. Bottom line, I'm not defending my marriage from her. She's an enemy, but destroying her will not make my marriage any stronger. Only H and I can do that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Overall, I think Polland is trying to come clean, trying to help out some BS is an effort to wash herself. For the other posters, please let us not cast stones on this woman. ZB while you may not want to accept help from an OW who is still very much into it, please see that this is a woman and (soon to be)a mother like yourself whose only fault is loving and catering to the needs of a very selfish man.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are much nicer than me. I don't see her as trying to come clean. If she was she'd be tossing MM out of her bed back to his wife where she stole him from. And just like I told CM (before her evolution), until you are on the road to recovery the last thing you need to be doing is dishing advise to a BS. She needs to be coming here asking advise on how to come clean if that was her intention. How can someone who doesn't know how to swim teach another to swim. Illiterate people can't teach others to read.

Xtreme, I do thank you for your "scolding" of Polland on her insensitivity. I'm just glad she decided to come out of lurking on my thread and not a newbies. I can handle her and her kind. Someone fresh into this mess may not be as equiped.

CMiranda, I was reading your post on this thread and the other thread to Polland. My my my have you grown. I was thinking how odd it was that you hadn't chimed in to "defend" Polland's posts. I was pleasantly surprised at the sound advise you gave. I'm so very proud of you. It's like watching a caterpillar metamorphisize. You are showing your truely beautiful colors more and more each day. Keep up the good work. If we can see it, so can your H. And when d-day finally comes he will surely be in awe of how far you've come.

jafujay

Welcome to our very sad club. I'm sorry you are a memeber, but glad that you have found us.

I was so sad to hear that you H has so many OC. We have several members here that have multiple OC. I hope they will read this post and respond to you too.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The other drop out of my H life because he refused to leave me for her. She told him that she couldn't understand why he stayed with a woman who children did not belong to him. My H said he told her that he was still in love with me and that my children were indeed his children.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The funny thing is that many many OW really believe that men marry for children and men stay in marriages for children. This just isn't the norm. Men stay in marriages because they love their wives. The do not leave their wives for women who have their children either. Look at the many childless BS's here on this forum, Catnip - MaryJanes - and many more. These OW really believe that if they get pregnant the MM will leave their wives to be with them so they can be with their illegitimate children. It's just not so (for the majority).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In reading your comments I'm under the impression that your H are the father of your children and prehaps your one and only marriage. Meaning none of you are in a second marriage with children from a prior marriage. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are correct. Both children are ours of our one and only marriage.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I ask this because I need help. I think because of all that I have been though I have lost my self esteem, self respect and a love for my self. Sometimes I find myself wondering is this the way I should be treated. Does no children mean that I should be treated like I'm the other woman.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Honey we have all lost our self esteem. It goes with the territory. Learning of an affair rips the BS down so very low. I remember feel so unworthy of happiness. I thought that this was truely my fate and all I was deserving of. But somewhere in the bottom of my bottom (and some help from Wellbutrin) I saw a glimmer of light within myself to know that I am worthy and deserving of a good marriage and husband. Just because your husband didn't donate the sperm that created your children doesn't deny that he accepted the responsibility of being their daddy. Biology is just that, science. A family is more than what cells and dna people share. If you found out tomorrow that one of your children was switched at the hospital, would you love that child less than your other 4? Well 10 years of being those children's father will not wipe away because he donated sperm to impregnate another woman.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm on this site constantly reading postings, reading Dr.Harleys books. My husband is also doing the same. He has asked me to come home and start a new. He has also said that he is willing to do whatever he need to do to correct his wrong.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are quite blessed to have a willing husband who wants to work on your marriage. Take this offer and run with it. Dive head first into rebuilding your marriage. I'm so hopeful and happy for you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I ask myself:
What about the OSC and their mothers?
Are my children outside children as well? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your children are not outside children if you H has raised them for 10 years. They are your children and I'm sure if you asked him, he'd say the same.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's what bought me to this site. I need some work done on myself as well. I'm scard as He_ _! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't we all. My H always says, "I'm a work in progress". I believe we both are. And God meant for us to continue to evolve until our death.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The pain of it all is still so much alive. What about the lies. All the lies? How can I trust, what do I belive? Who's telling the truth?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">By working the MB principles you will slowly regain trust. With your H being willing to do whatever it takes it should go much smoother than those who are still in a fog. (mine obviously slid into a fog filled road last week!)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm scard yet I'm still in love with my H. This site made me realize that I am not alone. So many W have been though the fire and still press on. You guys old and new please keep sharing. You help me even if you don't know it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We are all madly in love with our H's. And you are not alone. Keep reading, keep working and keep posting. We are here for you.


Wheeewwwww. my fingers hurt! LOL. I'm signing off for now. Thanks to all,
Z.

<small>[ September 09, 2002, 07:29 PM: Message edited by: zebrababy ]</small>

Hmmm... Welllll, ya know? Sometimes the "high ground" is the road of prayer. It seems to me that if there is any "high ground" or seeds to be sown into an OW's life, it would be seeds of PRAYER. That's right, prayer and NO CONTACT. No contact, period. Especially since this person showed her true colors and what (damage) she is capable of doing to many lives, including her own child's by LYING about paternity.

Nevertheless, z, my heartfelt prayers are with you. Your husband has no reason, NO REASON whatsoever to be contacting this person and she has no reason, NO REASON whatsoever to have his cell number.

Just thinking about it makes me furious but as the Word says, our wrath does not promote the righteousness of God. Try to let it go and just remember we can't control anyone but ourselves. When we take our rightful place, God will get through to our husbands and convict them of everything they need revelation on. I mean everything. God can even infiltrate their dreams just like so many BS's have nightmares, well how about a WS nightmare for a change! Something to really set them on the right path! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Let's have some fun with our faith!!!

Forgive the OW, she sounds just as desperate and pitiful as ever... still wants to make a baby with your husband so she can be forever connected to your lives. Little does she know that you are ONE FLESH. Hmmm... sounds like she needs a revelation too! Maybe a Holy Ghost nightmare (I mean DREAM) would be good for her right about now too! Seems to me she needs to be busy with other things like trying to figure out who is the real father of her baby...

Sorry I'm in quite a sarcastic mood tonight... Please forgive me if I'm not being constructive. Probably time for me to just say g'day!!!! Good luck z--this is not an easy hurdle but it's okay because God will help you at your weakest points. He is strongest at our weakest points. Trust HIM. He will never fail you...

p.s. Just let me clarify what I meant by "having fun with faith..." I'm not saying that it is scriptural to go around praying for people to have nightmares, okay, so don't get me wrong. I'm just saying that FAITH means trusting GOD with things that are out of our control. We don't have control over anyone's dreams nor can we manipulate others' final decisions through our prayers. Everyone has a will and everyone makes their own choices...

If z's husband refuses to give up contact with the OW, then that is his choice and no prayer in the world will override his choice, however much we might disagree.

What I am saying is that faith is fun because it keeps us free--free from anger, free from strife, free from confusion. God is not the author of confusion. He wants us to be at peace and the only struggle a Christian should ever have is that laboring to enter into His rest. Nothing frustrates the enemy more than when we are at peace, singing and praising God (for HIS goodness and faithfulness) when at the same time, our lives seem to be crumbling around us. We just need to remember that the things which are seen are temporary and subject to change! We have to hold out for the good outcome which God has promised to all His kids. We win no matter what it looks like.

Recovery is an interesting phenomenon, I'm learning from hanging out on this board. Some days are good and some days are not as good. Triggers come and go. When it is good, it's great, but when it's bad, it really sucks. There are so many ups and downs. Nothing is ever the same but it doesn't mean you are not fully recovered. You are! You just have to fight to STAY recovered and keep doing whatever it was that got you free from all the negativity to begin with.

Hang in there, z! I'm sure you understood, but we have a lot of newbies and I didn't want to leave the wrong impression...

<small>[ September 10, 2002, 05:14 AM: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</small>

Good Lord, Z....

What on earth possessed your husband to meet up with the OW that lied and caused so much angst, hurt and grief is amazing in itself.

Z, Honey, I think your husband and you need to go to someone well versed in the MB prinicples and get him a refresher course. For some reason he is vulnerable and needs some kind of validation. I know you are meeting all him EN's and then some, so there is soemthing happening with him, or something lacking within himself that is causing him to allow the nose of the camel back into the tent....and he better be careful before the whole damn camel is standing there in your midst.

This is something you need to focus on and address. Don't sluff it off or let it go. There is something wrong with your husband, something you can't ignore.

I know Polland's presence and statememts upset you and Tigger but I can see what she was trying to say, barring her continued involvement, she was trying to offer helpful insight from her side of the fence. Take what you need and leave the rest. I know she is not being hurtful and vindictive and was sincerely trying to help. Her apologetic demeanor makes that evident.

Z, you have such a strong faith in God and He spared you the agony of having to deal with an OC. He spared your husband as well. But, sparing him might make your husband think he is bullet proof. He needs to remember the horrible agony and pain the two of you went through and not forget how close he came to having the obligation and complications of dealing with the OW and the OC for the rest of your lives.

To me, any man or woman who got a Get Out Of Jail Free card and then continues to play with fire must have some serious emotional issues that could put them back into a bad situation again if they don't work on why they behave in such self destructive ways.

Please tell your husband you need to find out what you need to do to "affair proof" your marriage because you love him and want your life with him.

God bless, Z...I'll keep you in my heart and in my prayers.

Love

Catnip =^^=

<small>[ September 10, 2002, 07:25 AM: Message edited by: catnip ]</small>

Thanks Cat and BTDT for your input on my situation.

I agree with alot both of you said.

I had a long talk with a chat buddy of mine who laid it out to me on the possible senarios that could be going on with my H. She gave me some advise on how to approach him to get him to open up about it.

I followed her advise. After two hours of agruing he opened up to about fifteen minutes of an awesome monolog about whats was and is going on in his head and heart.

As suspected the contact with her was a combination of things: curiosity, closure, testing himself, ego, etc. As I've mentioned before he's always thought OW wasn't a bad person just caught in circumstances that she's made bad decisions in. After this whole senario played out her phone calls with me and then him he's woken up to what she's all about.

He says it was exactly what he needed to close that chapter in his life forever. He was humble and apologetic (which is rare for this macho man of a husband I have).

He's growing and so am I. I know that my biggest area needing improvement is how I receive information regarding OW. Had I been better at this, perhaps this senario could have been avoided. His area that needs to be improved is how to deal with his deamons and seeking help for them. He's always been so "self sufficient" and never humbles himself to seek advise of our pastor or his sound friends or better yet, me.

That's an area we both acknowlege we need to work on. We can communicate about everything under the sun, but when it comes to talking about how he feels about her, I break down and he shuts down.

Just believe, there is so much work to recovery. Somedays I wonder will I ever be scott free?

H said something tonight to me that made me think. He said when we've been married fifty years, imagine how it'll sound when we say, "we've been married 50 years and the first 6 were a bytch."

It'll seem so insignificant then.

We are a young couple. Growing into one. I know he's grown from where we were. And knowing his "guilty" reaction and his "innocent" reaction, I know nothing happened that day they met. I know now in my gut he was trying to purge his deamons in his own way, even though it was wrong. He realizes it now too.

I've prayed long and hard about it. I've cried enough tears. And as my chat buddy said, "It's time to piss or get off the pot." So, I'm letting it go, and letting God take care of it. I got what I needed and that was the information that H held so close to his chest. I have no power over anything else.

Once again, "God had kept me so I wouldn't let go" and I will continue with my own growth for the good of myself and my family. And if he sees fit, God will equip my husband with the tools he needs to "shake the devil off" if she should ever let her ugly head appear!

Thanks again everyone,
Z.

Honesty brings about healing!

well luscious,

look what the cat dragged in! Welcome back, I hope this time you are in a better spirit than last.

Z.