Deb,

There’s nothing wrong with the way you think. As an individual, you are entitled to your own thoughts and beliefs, and I totally respect that. What I was trying to express is that I am often in awe at what someone is capable of, especially when it comes to their child. Mothers would willingly go through trial by fire for their little ones. It’s hard to say what you can truly endure until you are put to the test. Look at all you’ve lived through, Gem! You didn’t lay down and die when you found about the affair. You didn’t disintegrate when you found out about OC. You survived your son’s breakdown. You triumphed over OW’s attacks on you and your family. You’ve made it through more pain and heartache than any one person deserves. I bet you never realized you were this strong until you were faced with so much adversity. You were stripped down to just Gem, at her rawest, most vulnerable form, and you prevailed.

As for getting my juices flowing…I did not mean that in a derogatory way. You just made me think about all the different directions in which this thread was jumping. What you said, I do not take personally. I recognize that it was stated as it applies to YOU and your boundaries/beliefs. It did not hurt or offend me in any way. No worries with me, Gem. I’ve got a thick skin. Please do not apologize to me for voicing your thoughts.

Take care,
OB1

Dear Ohbratti1
~sniff~ ~sniff~ Ob1 ~sniff~ Thankyou.

My Mom,just recently in a conversation, told me how proud she was of me for the strength I showed through out all that has happened in my life. That she was so proud of how I handled things...~sniff~ ~sniff~ Something about thoses words....I couldn't answer her because I was sobbing...so be glad this is a computer and I can type the words...because I am sobbing again...

Ob1, let me return the compliment in saying you too are a strong woman. You did what I said I could never do..and you did it with grace....So never think I ever would condem you for being you!

Jonas will be proud of the woman who is his Mom.
Guaranteed. With your sense of being able to capture what I feel! And put it into words!

And being from what some may call the enemy camp!
Thankyou. ~sniff~
love
Debi

I think it took me 30 minutes to read this whole topic. What a hot topic.

fact is, what has happened to all of us is shameful. Nothing to be proud of. I myself, had I been the OW, could not have decided to keep the child and brought the child into my current family. And why not?Because it is wrong, shameful, and hurtful to them. and my BS. THat is why. I also come from a generation that having children out of wedlock was not o.k. I certainly am not conservative, but I still feel that way. Would not want my children to go about having children that way at all. Let's face it-- how many of you would prefer that over a committed marital relationship for your children?

The fact is, a single woman having a child out of wedlock with a MM, accident or planned, is not necessarily thinking of whether that is good for child or not. My H tried to tell OW how hard it would be to raise child by herself. Pleaded with her to adopt child out. This OW does not have an education, makes very little money in her job, cannot afford her own place, and is not economically solvent. It didn't matter to her. Because she wanted a child, didn't have any, she had the child, and kept the child. Then cries wolf when she realizes years down the road it is exhausting to raise a child by oneself with little resources around her.

NOw, I think that is selfish. I know when I was young, and with H, and married, I was not ready to have children for many years. I took the responsibility to stop pregnancy by using a chosen method of birth control-- why? Because I would have had to face having an unwanted child or consider abortion if I wasn't ready. I would have had to face the implications of this much more so than my H. It is just a fact.

In these awful cases, when the OP is the male, he plain doesn't have the same choice. In my H's instance, he says the OW didn't want to use a condom-- didn't like it, and because she had never been pregnant before, she naively believed she couldn't get pregnant.Stupid on both their parts. I must admit, there are many times when I wonder if she picked him out to steal his sperm.

I think she did do me wrong. ANd Mom of five, you were admirable in apologizing to WS's wife. But you sound as if you apologized because she was going to have contact with your child, not because you really thought it was indicated.

I have said this to my OW and I say it to you all-- To my worst enemy, and trust me, the OW is right up on the top of the list, I wouldn't and would never do what she did with my H. NOr could I have gone forward with pregnancy and seek CS for the child from a man married already. It would sicken me, humiliate me, and cause me great stress. I would have been so ashamed for my behavior, I couldn't bear to hurt the innocent family more.

Why can't some OW see that? I don't get it. Where is the compassion for other human beings?

UW,
My only thought is that you are very focused on "me". That is why you do not understand or empathize, that is not meant as a shot at you, its just what I hear in nearly all of your responses since day one. Blame them (h and ow) and poor me. Not to single you out by any means.
CM

Unhappy wife wrote,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> ...NOr could I have gone forward with pregnancy and seek CS for the child from a man married already. It would sicken me, humiliate me, and cause me great stress. I would have been so ashamed for my behavior, I couldn't bear to hurt the innocent family more. Why can't some OW see that? I don't get it. Where is the compassion for other human beings? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In my view, the only truly innocent one is the child. That is why I chose to have my child - he did nothing wrong. Why should his life be snuffed out because he wasn't planned? I think I would feel more ashamed at myself for not having my child and taking the easy way out than to have him, albeit an unconventional circumstance, yet strive to give him the best life possible in spite of it.

And I guess I don't see how asking for child support is not showing compassion, especially if it is done within reason. If my H were the one who had the affair, I would insist on us at least paying child support and come forward to do so on our own. In my mind, its really the only decent thing the OM could do at this point, besides staying away from us.

But for the record, I have given up my right to child support because my H and I are trying to get past this and have a normal life. I asked H about this at dinner tonight and he said he wouldn't even take OM's money if it were given to him. He doesn't want anything at all to do with OM. I, on the otherhand, want OM to pay SOMEHOW for what he did. Maybe if I knew he felt some remorse, not only towards his wife, but towards me and what he put me through. As I've said before, OM is who I'd like the apology from.

Oh, and CM, I too heard the line from OM, "you ended it, not me". So I guess that justifies him turning his back on us. Not that I even want him in my life, but I think some act of remorse is necessary.

And get this, (venting here) when I was cleaning out the love nest that OM and I shared, in the bedroom dresser was an unopened condom. which makes me wonder if he had this whole thing planned thinking that if I were pregnant I would definitely leave H for him...NOT.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think it took me 30 minutes to read this whole topic. What a hot topic.

fact is, what has happened to all of us is shameful. Nothing to be proud of. I myself, had I been the OW, could not have decided to keep the child and brought the child into my current family. And why not?Because it is wrong, shameful, and hurtful to them. and my BS. I come from a family where it is not ok to have a child out of wedlock, But it does sometimes happen and my family, although they may not like my choices they love me and respect what decision I have made and would have been absolutely furious had I aborted or given my child away..

I am a mother unhappy wife just as you are and I cant imagine the only reson in this world that you love your children is because your husband fathered them. You expect less of someone who had a child out of wedlock. We still love our children . my children love thier sister.. why wouldnt they, she is their sister.

THat is why. I also come from a generation that having children out of wedlock was not o.k. I certainly am not conservative, but I still feel that way. Would not want my children to go about having children that way at all. Let's face it-- how many of you would prefer that over a committed marital relationship for your children?

Of course I would not wish this for my child as parents we alwasy want things to be perfect for our children, but would not stop loving them if it did not turn out the way I wanted.

The fact is, a single woman having a child out of wedlock with a MM, accident or planned, is not necessarily thinking of whether that is good for child or not. My H tried to tell OW how hard it would be to raise child by herself. Pleaded with her to adopt child out. This OW does not have an education, makes very little money in her job, cannot afford her own place, and is not economically solvent. It didn't matter to her. Because she wanted a child, didn't have any, she had the child, and kept the child. Then cries wolf when she realizes years down the road it is exhausting to raise a child by oneself with little resources around her.

Unfortunately young people have babies all the time and it is very sad and devistating, if your husband was so wise to advise her what a shame he did not make better choices for her before.

NOw, I think that is selfish. I know when I was young, and with H, and married, I was not ready to have children for many years. I took the responsibility to stop pregnancy by using a chosen method of birth control-- why? Because I would have had to face having an unwanted child or consider abortion if I wasn't ready. I would have had to face the implications of this much more so than my H. It is just a fact.

In these awful cases, when the OP is the male, he plain doesn't have the same choice. In my H's instance, he says the OW didn't want to use a condom-- didn't like it, and because she had never been pregnant before, she naively believed she couldn't get pregnant.Stupid on both their parts. I must admit, there are many times when I wonder if she picked him out to steal his sperm.

I cant imagine a woman just picking out a man for his sperm, lol but I would guess it could happen

I think she did do me wrong. ANd Mom of five, you were admirable in apologizing to WS's wife. But you sound as if you apologized because she was going to have contact with your child, not because you really thought it was indicated.

I apologised because she and I had to come to some form of communication , I was sorry for all of us, not because of the baby, but because of all the hurt and anger that had gone on for a few months.. I am concerned about any one who is going to be around my child.. sorry cant help it, its a mom thing...

I have said this to my OW and I say it to you all-- To my worst enemy, and trust me, the OW is right up on the top of the list, I wouldn't and would never do what she did with my H. NOr could I have gone forward with pregnancy and seek CS for the child from a man married already. It would sicken me, humiliate me, and cause me great stress. I would have been so ashamed for my behavior, I couldn't bear to hurt the innocent family more.

Why can't some OW see that? I don't get it. Where is the compassion for other human beings?

I can see that you think you would never do any of these things, I can also say you dont know what you would do , unless you are put in this situation. I dont feel sick or humiliated. I take good care of my children, they have a family who love them, and are well taken care of... I am not hurting an innocent family at all, and your husband is not innocent, he is the one who hurt you the most, so that argument should be with him.

Unhappy wife,

I am not saying what the other woman did was right, but you cant tell those of us who kept our child that we should be humiliated and ashamed.. I am not proud of the affair, it wasnt a conquest, just two people who learned to depend on each other when we should not have, But I am proud of my daughter.. why wouldnt I be!? I gave birth to her, I feel no different than you do about the children you gave birth to. this is what you dont get.. you think the mother should not love this child and not have it... because it would suit the other man.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Noplacelikehome:

And I guess I don't see how asking for child support is not showing compassion, especially if it is done within reason. If my H were the one who had the affair, I would insist on us at least paying child support and come forward to do so on our own. In my mind, its really the only decent thing the OM could do at this point, besides staying away from us.

I couldn't agree more NP.

...I on the otherhand, want OM to pay SOMEHOW for what he did. Maybe if I knew he felt some remorse, not only towards his wife, but towards me and what he put me through. As I've said before, OM is who I'd like the apology from.

I echo your feelings 100% at this time in my recovery. He asked me what he could do to make things better? My honest reply at the time was to see some blood and tears on HIS part along with an apology. I got the apology. I can't say it meant a whole lot, seeing how I had to ask for it. Sadly, I see the the realliance with his wife as a man who is afraid of being left by both of us. It goes back to my thought that we are looking for someone else to complete us.

Oh, and CM, I too heard the line from OM, "you ended it, not me". So I guess that justifies him turning his back on us. Not that I even want him in my life, but I think some act of remorse is necessary.

Amazing, isn't it? Yes, we chose to stay with our husbands and that was interpreted as go back to life as it was and forget about their role in all this.

And get this, (venting here) when I was cleaning out the love nest that OM and I shared, in the bedroom dresser was an unopened condom. which makes me wonder if he had this whole thing planned thinking that if I were pregnant I would definitely leave H for him...NOT

I am not the least bit surprised. My ex never uttered a word about bc, ever once, in 6.5 years. When I brought up preg. possibilites, he only said that he often wondered how that would change things for us and what a good looking child we'd make. I can never know what crazy thoughts were raging through his mind back then. And neither can you. As messed up as the bs think we are, the ow/ws, so too are their husbands. Then they find out about A, and they too become an emotional catastrophy. Thanks ex-mm. For nothing.

momoffive said: I am not saying what the other woman did was right, but you cant tell those of us who kept our child that we should be humiliated and ashamed.. I am not proud of the affair, it wasnt a conquest, just two people who learned to depend on each other when we should not have, But I am proud of my daughter.. why wouldnt I be!? I gave birth to her, I feel no different than you do about the children you gave birth to. this is what you dont get.. you think the mother should not love this child and not have it... because it would suit the other man.

Perfectly said.

CM

<small>[ November 20, 2002, 09:03 PM: Message edited by: CMiranda ]</small>

I must say something to you MO5,

The main reason I love my son is because my husband fathered him.

We waited 6 years into our marriage before he was born.

It was a loving choice we made togetherand we anticipated his birth by reading all the books on child rearing together, chose his nursery together, told all of our happy families together. The main word here is together. He was there at the hospital for our son's birth and handed out "it's a boy" cigars (ok smoking them was a non-political issue back then <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ).

H entered all the information in our boy's baby book. Including where mommy and daddy met. And when mommy and daddy were married....and what daddy said when he found out mommy was expecting.

We did it the right way.

I wonder what ow wrote in her baby book? What did you write?

As I said before...I would never consider having a child with a man I wasn't married to. I guess I forgot to say I wouldn't "do the do" until then either. But thats me.

If by some unforeseen reason I'd have had the child, and not been married, by all means I'd love it. We aren't arguing if you love your D or not.

See when you chose to have the baby in such horrible circumstances, it stands to reason some difficulties will follow.

We have a cousin who did that w/a single man, left her H and is living w/single man raising their D. She left her H of 23 years and 21 yr old D and 18 yr. old son. Her mom and dad cut her out of their lives at first for causing so much grief.

They all get along somewhat now, but each Christmas when we see them, everyone still says.."how sad a situation it is"

LOL I'm sure now they say it about H and me and our S!!!!!
Just can't escape the Jerry Springer thing no matter what, I guess....

Debi

Gemini,

I do not say this to make you feel bad.
You say you love your son because your H is his father. You say you and he did it the 'right way'. Yet, your marriage wasn't going along the 'right way' or else he would not have turned away from it. Yet you do not love your son any less having been deeply hurt by his father.
I am not so sure you really belive what you are saying here. I sense you are saying what you need to say to support your argument about how us ow should not have had our children because they happen to be children of someone elses H. You will say what you need to say to support that feeling, which is more than likely bred out of the pain of the affair. That is how I think about it as I can not commit to my logical thinking self, that a mother, who has carried a child and given birth, who has loved her infant child and known an unconditional love like no other, can actually believe what you say you do.
I wonder how you would feel about your son if your H were to have left you or if you fell out of love with him, and left him? See, the child is a seperate person. You are essentially saying you love your child conditionally. What if you found out tomorrow that the hospital made a grave error and your son was switched at birth. Then what? You toss him aside like yesterdays newspaper.....in search of the child conceived the 'right way'?
Love is love and you can try and disquise it or twist it into something grander than simply love, yet it remains universal. What I had with my -ex was love. Wrong lifetime, but love nonetheless.

CM

<small>[ November 20, 2002, 09:29 PM: Message edited by: CMiranda ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Katie Scarlett:
[QB]Oh, and I was highly offended at the comment about single parenthood being shamful.
QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No fair. You cannot be highly offended by a comment that was not directed at you personally or we Betrayeds will all have to get all offended at your remarks that you don't care one fig that your Betrayed was injured or that you don't owe her an apology, making her seem like a non-entity. No one became grossly offended at your remark...instead you were praised for being honest...

Catnip =^^=

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CMiranda:
<strong>UW,
My only thought is that you are very focused on "me". That is why you do not understand or empathize, that is not meant as a shot at you, its just what I hear in nearly all of your responses since day one.

=^^= If you give no empathy, why do you expect it from UW?

Blame them (h and ow) and poor me.

=^^= Who else is on the blame list besides H and OW?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Noplacelikehome:
<strong>In my view, the only truly innocent one is the child.

=^^= And the Betrayed Spouse

That is why I chose to have my child - he did nothing wrong. Why should his life be snuffed out because he wasn't planned?

=^^= I don't believe anyone suggested your child's life should be "snuffed out"

In my mind, its really the only decent thing the OM could do at this point, besides staying away from us.

=^^= So, you want it BOTH ways...empty the pockets but get to call the shots and discourage visitation/joint custody...

But for the record, I have given up my right to child support because my H and I are trying to get past this and have a normal life.

=^^= THAT'S smart. Especially for the child and for your marriage.

Maybe if I knew he felt some remorse, not only towards his wife, but towards me and what he put me through.

=^^= what about what YOU put HIM through, and his wife, and his fmaily by consenting to adulterous sex with someone else's husband? Maybe he does feel deep remorse, but you will never know and that will be the price you will have to pay for doing what you did. You are in control of your body and no one forced you to have sex. If you would have said NO there would have been no sex, no conception, no child.

As I've said before, OM is who I'd like the apology from.

=^^- And that is fair, as long as you apologize to him as well for your part in this.

Oh, and CM, I too heard the line from OM, "you ended it, not me". So I guess that justifies him turning his back on us.

=^^= What did you want and expect him to do if you ended it....drop to his knees and beg?

And get this, (venting here) when I was cleaning out the love nest that OM and I shared, in the bedroom dresser was an unopened condom. which makes me wonder if he had this whole thing planned thinking that if I were pregnant I would definitely leave H for him...NOT.

-^^= How delusional can people get here on this site?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CMiranda:
[Q
Sadly, I see the the realliance with his wife as a man who is afraid of being left by both of us. It goes back to my thought that we are looking for someone else to complete us.

=^^= Does making the wife nothing more than a non-entity in your mind and something to be "used" by husband as a safety net when his A is over make OW's feel better to think the only reason he goes back to the wife is out of need and convenience? This is what you OW's really want to believe, isn't it? That the wife, you know, the Old Ball and Chain, is a cross for him to bear while he pines away for the OW he secretly wanted to knock up because he left an unopened condom in a drawer. God, you women are dreamers and completely delusional while you rewrite history to pretend your affairs were so much more than a fling or sordid affair.

My ex never uttered a word about bc, ever once, in 6.5 years.

=^^= He probably thought that in this enlightened age of a multitude of BC devices that are handed out to teenagers in high schools, a woman of your ripe old years would be able to figure out how to prevent pregnancy. He probably never gave it much thought.

When I brought up preg. possibilites, he only said that he often wondered how that would change things for us and what a good looking child we'd make.

=^^= And, what did you say????

Thanks ex-mm. For nothing.

=^^= for nothing? What about your beautiful child? You certainly got something wondeful there.
[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CMiranda:
<strong>momoffive said: [b]I am not saying what the other woman did was right, but you cant tell those of us who kept our child that we should be humiliated and ashamed.. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She didn't say YOU should be humilated and ashamed...she said she would be if it happened to her.

CMIranda, Your post to me is so interesting and probably says a lot more about you than me at all.
I reread my post.

The post I wrote above barely mentions blame. But that is what you picked up on. It does mention decisions made by OW and my H. True decisions. Decisions that affected me. OF course it makes reference to me, I am the one doing the post.

Just exactly did you pick up on my post? I don't see any evidence of focus on me at all-but I did focus on how decisions made by OW and OM affect the people who are loved by these people.

You know what? ANyone who gets involved in an A, knowingly and willingly, did it full well it could hurt others. You can't tell me otherwise. My H thought he could avoid hurting me, but in the end, he hurt me in the worst way.So too did the OW. No excuse for either of them.

Catnip,

Originally posted by Noplacelikehome:
In my view, the only truly innocent one is the child.

=^^= And the Betrayed Spouse

No, in my case I don't believe the BS is innocent but rather should bear some responsibility for kicking her husband out of their bed and allowing him to sleep in the spare bedroom with the dog. I mean, come on, not that she deserved what happened, but what did she think was going to happen?

That is why I chose to have my child - he did nothing wrong. Why should his life be snuffed out because he wasn't planned?

=^^= I don't believe anyone suggested your child's life should be "snuffed out"

No, but I believe in the previous part of the thread we were discussing whether or not to have a child under these circumstances and that's what I was eluding to.

In my mind, its really the only decent thing the OM could do at this point, besides staying away from us.

=^^= So, you want it BOTH ways...empty the pockets but get to call the shots and discourage visitation/joint custody...

I never said anything about emptying anyone's pockets. Your H's OW may be trying to do that to you, but I that's not what I'm about. I just think he should pay something reasonable. Plus, since he's all the way on the other side of the U.S. now, I don't see how visitation or joint custody would even be possible. But if I had my drothers, yes, that's how I would like the situation to be - child support but no contact.

But for the record, I have given up my right to child support because my H and I are trying to get past this and have a normal life.

=^^= THAT'S smart. Especially for the child and for your marriage.

Maybe if I knew he felt some remorse, not only towards his wife, but towards me and what he put me through.

=^^= what about what YOU put HIM through, and his wife, and his fmaily by consenting to adulterous sex with someone else's husband?

This thread was about getting an apology - that's what I responded to. As I stated earlier, I did apologize to OM's wife and when I ended it with OM apologized to him then. Not that an apology makes everything ok, but I was extremely remorseful (and still am) for what I allowed myself to get lured into and my actions in the whole situation.

As I've said before, OM is who I'd like the apology from.

=^^- And that is fair, as long as you apologize to him as well for your part in this.

See answer above.

Oh, and CM, I too heard the line from OM, "you ended it, not me". So I guess that justifies him turning his back on us.

=^^= What did you want and expect him to do if you ended it....drop to his knees and beg?

No, but he could have asked if there was anything he could do to make the situation right or help in any way.

And get this, (venting here) when I was cleaning out the love nest that OM and I shared, in the bedroom dresser was an unopened condom. which makes me wonder if he had this whole thing planned thinking that if I were pregnant I would definitely leave H for him...NOT.

-^^= How delusional can people get here on this site?

Could do without the personal attack here. And if you knew my OM you would understand what I meant.

catnip, I was offended at the inference that all single mothers were secretly ashamed. Maybe that's not what she meant, but that's the way I read it.

When I post i'm pretty careful to make it clear that my opinion is mine and mine alone.

Oh and for the record my child is not a product of my EMA.

<small>[ November 21, 2002, 08:44 AM: Message edited by: twiisty ]</small>

I'm not going to argue with you uw. I simply am saying that in nearly every post, you are blaming or judging H and ow and full of self pity.
I do not believe that BS are innocent victims. I believe that BS contribute to the breakdown of their marriages. No, they are not to be blamed for the affair. No, their not. However they are not innocent of their role. The only innocent ones are the children.

CM