cantip- [/qb][/QUOTE]She didn't say YOU should be humilated and ashamed...she said she would be if it happened to her.[/QB][/QUOTE]

Did I say she did? No, I didn't. I say that I agree with every word she wrote. And I do.

CM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by catnip:
[qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by CMiranda:
[Q
Sadly, I see the the realliance with his wife as a man who is afraid of being left by both of us. It goes back to my thought that we are looking for someone else to complete us.

=^^= Does making the wife nothing more than a non-entity in your mind and something to be "used" by husband as a safety net when his A is over make OW's feel better to think the only reason he goes back to the wife is out of need and convenience? This is what you OW's really want to believe, isn't it? That the wife, you know, the Old Ball and Chain, is a cross for him to bear while he pines away for the OW he secretly wanted to knock up because he left an unopened condom in a drawer. God, you women are dreamers and completely delusional while you rewrite history to pretend your affairs were so much more than a fling or sordid affair.

--> I'm not looking to make myself feel better. I'm simply stating the facts as they are known to me by my ex. I am not saying YOU, I'm saying in my case. Funny, 7 year fling. I like that. Whose dreaming now?
I know what he told me and I believe him.
Simple.

My ex never uttered a word about bc, ever once, in 6.5 years.

=^^= He probably thought that in this enlightened age of a multitude of BC devices that are handed out to teenagers in high schools, a woman of your ripe old years would be able to figure out how to prevent pregnancy. He probably never gave it much thought.

--> Wrong again. He and I discussed pregnancy on more than one occasion and he shared his feelings of that happening. Immediately thereafter, he wanted to make love and he cried in my arms when he said that he wanted a life and kids with me. A man who rarely shared his emotions. The next day or week, whenever, I do not recall, he was back to saying how he can't put himself first and what he wants doesn't matter. The preg. discussions were not what you might think or are trying to believe here that is for sure.
For the men who assume - shame on them.

When I brought up preg. possibilites, he only said that he often wondered how that would change things for us and what a good looking child we'd make.

=^^= And, what did you say????

--> Feeling was mutual.

Thanks ex-mm. For nothing.

=^^= for nothing? What about your beautiful child? You certainly got something wondeful there

--> You got it, I do have something absolutely precious, but I'm not refering to my child when I make that statment. Go back and read my post.

For someone who likes to remind us ws/ow's how much you are not referring to us and our situations, you sure seem to lose touch with that here. I'm not talking about your H, I'm talking about my ex-, as a ws as well as ow.
If I wanted to be, I'd still be with him.

CM

<small>[ November 21, 2002, 10:36 AM: Message edited by: CMiranda ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by catnip:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CMiranda:
<strong>UW,
My only thought is that you are very focused on "me". That is why you do not understand or empathize, that is not meant as a shot at you, its just what I hear in nearly all of your responses since day one.

=^^= If you give no empathy, why do you expect it from UW?

Blame them (h and ow) and poor me.

=^^= Who else is on the blame list besides H and OW?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BS.

I deleted an original response, but I'll say this and then I will retreat....

not ALL BS's are to blame...it's a nice thought to blame us too, but the original people to blame are the selfish people who decided to have the fling/affair/whatever. They obviously weren't thinking about the betrayed wives and husbands and children of the home when they were having their "fun" "emotional attachment" what have you.

I refuse to take the blame for Mr."T" and his ex-booty call. Our marriage had no problems...our marriage counselor said if it weren't for the fact that he did this deed and an oc resulted, you wouldn't have known there was a problem.

Perhaps I'm the rarity on this, but I will own blame when I'm in the wrong, but I didn't cause or contribute to my H's quickies. I know the circumstances that surround why/what/how of our situation.

I guess it all depends on your circumstances. Our MC told my H that he was selfish as was ex-ow.

It's pure selfishness on the people who cheat...and whether a BS (male or female betrayed) contributed to the break down of communication or what have you, doesn't excuse and affair.

Let's just give this a rest and move on, eh?
I guess because My H had a three night stand/black book type of affair, I don't really count anyways...it's not like he was emotionally attached to the woman anyway. I'm fortunate in that respects, I suppose...but the pain is still real and I will not accept blame on selfish people's pleasures.

I understand there are several situations that lead up to A's....I could have had one too, when my H emotionally distanced himself from me, but I chose to honor my marriage vows. I wonder if honoring them is worth the pain I'm feeling now?

Hugs and peace,
Twiisty

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CMiranda:
<strong>Gemini,

I do not say this to make you feel bad.
You say you love your son because your H is his father. You say you and he did it the 'right way'. Yet, your marriage wasn't going along the 'right way' or else he would not have turned away from it.

typical ow thinking...every relationship has problems CM.....Turning away instead of trying to amend problems is wrong

Yet you do not love your son any less having been deeply hurt by his father.
I am not so sure you really belive what you are saying here. I sense you are saying what you need to say to support your argument about how us ow should not have had our children because they happen to be children of someone elses H. You will say what you need to say to support that feeling, which is more than likely bred out of the pain of the affair. That is how I think about it as I can not commit to my logical thinking self, that a mother, who has carried a child and given birth, who has loved her infant child and known an unconditional love like no other, can actually believe what you say you do.
I wonder how you would feel about your son if your H were to have left you or if you fell out of love with him, and left him? See, the child is a seperate person. You are essentially saying you love your child conditionally.

I would still love him as he was a gift to each of us from our marriage,regardless if it ended.

What if you found out tomorrow that the hospital made a grave error and your son was switched at birth. Then what? You toss him aside like yesterdays newspaper.....in search of the child conceived the 'right way'?

No, CM, I wouldn't give him back to find the right child. H and I once discussed this after seeing a story on a switch at birth. We would want to see our "real" child, but would not want to interfere with the life he has known.

Love is love and you can try and disquise it or twist it into something grander than simply love, yet it remains universal. What I had with my -ex was love. Wrong lifetime, but love nonetheless.

Seven years is a very long time to step outside your marriage. I'm sorry for you. Still, you write typical ow thoughts. Things like "wrong lifetime"... CM, if it was love why did you guys break it off? Love is universal. Love conquers all. You write with such regret at what you've done to your marriage, yet defend the A with statements like "wrong lifetime"

In closing I do wish you well.

I hope you find the healing you want. Really, I do.

CM</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Debi

I don't blame my H for my A. I blame him for not meeting my needs. I clearly defined them but he was too wrapped up in himself to do much about it. I do blame him for that end of things. I hope I claried myself, I don't think BS is to blame for decision of ws to have the A. I see the role of the BS in the process leading up to the A though. I do and for some to say that BS is innocent of the entire event is blaming and projecting all of the sadness and pain one is experiencing onto others. Yes, others have their major role, but so too does the spouse of the ws to varying degrees.

CM

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Noplacelikehome:
[QB]]No, in my case I don't believe the BS is innocent but rather should bear some responsibility for kicking her husband out of their bed and allowing him to sleep in the spare bedroom with the dog. I mean, come on, not that she deserved what happened, but what did she think was going to happen?[/b]

=^^= That's HIS version...you don't REALLY know what went on in that home or between those two people. No one knows what really goes in between a married couple but the married couple.

No, but I believe in the previous part of the thread we were discussing whether or not to have a child under these circumstances and that's what I was eluding to.

=^^= Understand that 90% of this site is Betrayeds and this is a POV that most of them probably share. Majority rules kind of thing

I never said anything about emptying anyone's pockets. But if I had my drothers, yes, that's how I would like the situation to be - child support but no contact.

=^^= Am I on acid or something?

This thread was about getting an apology - that's what I responded to.

=^^= It is about Betrayeds getting an apology FROM the OW

I allowed myself to get lured into and my actions in the whole situation.

=^^= "Lured" into a sexual relationship with a man who is married to someone else.

QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CMiranda:
<strong>I don't blame my H for my A. I blame him for not meeting my needs. I see the role of the BS in the process leading up to the A though. I do and for some to say that BS is innocent of the entire event is blaming and projecting all of the sadness and pain one is experiencing onto others.

CM</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">=^^= So what if the entire event is blamed solely on the perps who did these vile things? So what? What do you say to woman who went above and beyond the call of duty to meet every single emotional, mental, physical, spiritual need imaginable for two decades? Then what? Then how is she or he even remotely responsible for the A?

When you have given and loved and done every thing possible to enhance your marriage and to make your spouse happy and fulfilled and they betray you, how is this betrayal your fault???

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CMiranda:
[QB He and I discussed pregnancy on more than one occasion and he shared his feelings of that happening. Immediately thereafter, he wanted to make love and he cried in my arms when he said that he wanted a life and kids with me. A man who rarely shared his emotions.
When I brought up preg. possibilites, he only said that he often wondered how that would change things for us and what a good looking child we'd make.

=^^= Awwww. CM, that is so tender (sniff). Memories...like the shadows of my mind....
Hey. How's that Discovery (D-Day) coming with your HUSBAND?

For someone who likes to remind us ws/ow's how much you are not referring to us and our situations, you sure seem to lose touch with that here.

=^^= Oh, please. I am so fed up with a couple of you I could go running naked through the streets. As soon as any of you hear anything that has any common sense to it or any validity that is uncomfortable for any of you, you all start lashing out with preposterous statements and then bury your heads in the sand like a bunch of ostriches. I really don't know how much longer I can stand listening to the denial, self absorption, excuses, pining away for XMM's while rarely if ever mentioning husbands or recovery!!!

I'm not talking about your H, I'm talking about my ex-, as a ws as well as ow.

=^^= I am not so self absorbed to think you were talking about me. I did not take it that you meant me at all.

If I wanted to be, I'd still be with him.

=^^= Oh. And you think you still have this option, this choice? Well, keep hanging onto that illusion if that's what gets you through the day. I would think coming here and hanging at MARRIAGE BUILDERS for months, and months and months, your focus would be on your husband and your marraige and not waltzing down memory lane reminsicing about how XMM "cried in your arms"....sheesh.

You know, CM, right about now I would like to take this outside with you and have it out once and for all. Scream it out. You really get under my skin.

Cat

CM[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by catnip:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CMiranda:
<strong>I don't blame my H for my A. I blame him for not meeting my needs. I see the role of the BS in the process leading up to the A though. I do and for some to say that BS is innocent of the entire event is blaming and projecting all of the sadness and pain one is experiencing onto others.

CM</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">=^^= So what if the entire event is blamed solely on the perps who did these vile things? So what? What do you say to woman who went above and beyond the call of duty to meet every single emotional, mental, physical, spiritual need imaginable for two decades? Then what? Then how is she or he even remotely responsible for the A?

When you have given and loved and done every thing possible to enhance your marriage and to make your spouse happy and fulfilled and they betray you, how is this betrayal your fault???</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Very good question.
I think I'd have to ask a question first to better understand the situation. That Q would be, does the WS also concur that her/his needs were all met, that the BS made you happy, fullfilled you, etc. I think this is where the breakdown may be happening. In my case, my H knows this is not the situation.
In your case, or others, it may be that the H, who is most notably emotionally handicap, probably not forthcoming in describing his needs, may not have been upfront and honest about how he is feeling and what he wants but feels he is not getting.
I also think that men expect alot from women. They seem to think it is innate for us to be loving, caring, givers and they take, take and take, by nature. When women get tired of being deleted of our resources, it is too late for talk as we more than likely have already found our need being met someplace else. OM in my case met my need for conversation for at least 6 months then I was invested emotionally, and rest is hx.

CM

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CMiranda:
<strong>You know, it occured to me. Maybe these men did use condoms. They put them on their heads as they should, only the wrong head all together. When they did so, their oxygen got cut off and rendered them even more emotionally handicap than they were before the affair.
CM</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bwaa Haaaa Haaaaa Haaa Haaa. I don't think I have ever had a bigger internet laugh. Thanks, CM.

We have the story of the broken condom in our house. Actually they avoided pregnancy for almost all of a 7 year affair.

MJ

I believe some of us are missing the obvious, even though it&#8217;s been stated many times.

We are responsible for our OWN actions.

To elaborate on that:
To me, that means that regardless of someone else&#8217;s degree of responsibility (WS, BS), I STILL have to own MY actions and make amends for what I did. What BS/WS did or didn&#8217;t do is irrelevant. When it came down to it, I was the one who decided to do what I did. It would be ridiculous to say that I had an affair with a married man because his wife was not meeting his needs. I get so weary of all the finger-pointing. Whether BS/WS is responsible for any wrong-doing or not, has absolutely nothing to do with ME being responsible for MY actions. Not to accuse anyone of being childish, but this so reminds of a petulant child defending their bad behavior by say "Well, SHE started it!&#8221; Who gives a [censored] who started it? The end result was a lot of unnecessary pain due to avoidable bad choices. Blame cannot easily be apportioned out to each involved individual. What burns me is that not only do the guilty parties try to minimize their share of the blame, they also try to justify/rationalize what blame they do have. Nobody wants to be the bad guy, but I can respect someone more for standing up and saying &#8220;I did it, and I&#8217;m sorry.&#8221; than someone who says &#8220;Well, it wasn&#8217;t all MY fault!&#8221;

OB1

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ohbratti1:
<strong>I believe some of us are missing the obvious, even though it&#8217;s been stated many times.

We are responsible for our OWN actions.

To elaborate on that:
To me, that means that regardless of someone else&#8217;s degree of responsibility (WS, BS), I STILL have to own MY actions and make amends for what I did. What BS/WS did or didn&#8217;t do is irrelevant. When it came down to it, I was the one who decided to do what I did. It would be ridiculous to say that I had an affair with a married man because his wife was not meeting his needs. I get so weary of all the finger-pointing. Whether BS/WS is responsible for any wrong-doing or not, has absolutely nothing to do with ME being responsible for MY actions. Not to accuse anyone of being childish, but this so reminds of a petulant child defending their bad behavior by say "Well, SHE started it!&#8221; Who gives a [censored] who started it? The end result was a lot of unnecessary pain due to avoidable bad choices. Blame cannot easily be apportioned out to each involved individual. What burns me is that not only do the guilty parties try to minimize their share of the blame, they also try to justify/rationalize what blame they do have. Nobody wants to be the bad guy, but I can respect someone more for standing up and saying &#8220;I did it, and I&#8217;m sorry.&#8221; than someone who says &#8220;Well, it wasn&#8217;t all MY fault!&#8221;

OB1</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think I follow your line of reasoning.
If I'm correct, you are saying the following:

1. OW/OM should own their actions and stand up and say I did it and I'm sorry?

2. BS owns no responsiblity as the WS made the sole decision to have the affair to begin with?

3. If the WS expresses honesty about giving spouse a chance to meet needs but BS does not, it does not constitute any wrong doing to the marital relationship and the WS is being 'childish'. The BS behavior or withholding of certain behaviors, does not affect the decision made by the WS to engage in affair?

It seems to me that this is one sided. Us WS or OP should all parade around, waving our arms saying, we did it, we did it, and we're sorry. (which many of are) But the BS should simply say, I forgive you or I do not forgive you. You..you...you, its all you, WS/OP. I'm innocent?

CM

CM,

When it comes to owning your actions, I referred to the position of the OW because that is who I am. However, owning your actions is something that applies universally. Your reference to parading around and waving your arms with declarations of guilt and remorse, was an exaggeration and lampoon of what I envisioned. All I&#8217;m suggesting CM, is that we focus on ourselves and being honest, and make amends for what WE, we meaning EVERYBODY, have done wrong, instead of trying to shift the blame to someone else. I tried to blame OM for the state of affairs I was in. But you know what? I was a willing participant. Yeah, he lied. So what? The fact still remained that I had slept with another woman&#8217;s husband. Whether I meant to hurt her or not, doesn&#8217;t really matter. I had harmed her and I owed her an apology. MM never apologized to me. His apology or lack of, has absolutely NOTHING to do with me making amends for what I did. I am still on the hook for the role I played in this whole mess...even if he never apologizes.

As for responsibility for the state of the marriage, I believe that belongs to the H and W. But, if the H decides to go outside of the marriage to have his needs met, I do believe that was solely his decision. We have choices. We have free will. There are other options besides getting entangled in an EMA. It&#8217;s kind of like drinking. There can be so many things pushing you to drink, but your sobriety rests solely on YOUR shoulders. If you &#8220;fall off the wagon&#8221;, it was you and no one else that held that drink to your lips. I&#8217;m sure that other &#8220;behaviors&#8221; or circumstances facilitated the fall, but the final decision was made by one person.

OB1

<small>[ November 21, 2002, 02:49 PM: Message edited by: ohbratti1 ]</small>

Ohbratti

There is nothing more to add to your perspective....from the bottom of my heart. Thanks

I agree with Catnip, thank you for your input. I thought I put that in. It is about making choices, responsible choices. H made choice to get involved with OW outside of marriage. She chose to get involved with a MM. The BS had no choices here. She did not know that her H was involved with OW until it was too late. And for those who post here, another child was probuced from the illicit affair.
Who made the choices? The H and the OW. Who suffers, they all do, but the affairees were RESPONSIBLE for the whole situation by their choices. Why can't they accept it and show some concern for the BS later. A BS who never asked for her H to get involved with another person. Last time I looked, no one here has the ability to read minds, you cannot know there are problems if you do not get told by the person with the problem.
opinonins?

Texasgirl

KS as you would say, oh good grief! I don't believe I have made any assumptions here, just giving my opinion. Of course, I could be wrong and I am open to change. I did mention on one of those previous pages that my opinions are simply originating out of "where I come from. So maybe where you come from single parenting of a married man's child is okay. Fine, not trying to offend you or anyone else... Relax!

You made it very clear from the beginning of your posting on MB that your becoming a single parent was your choice because of your anti-marriage, anti-commitment views. I don't have a problem with that.

We are talking on this thread about single/married other women who become pregnant by married men and whether or not they made amends or apologized to the betrayed spouse. Let's stay focused on the subject at hand! Please don't take my comments out of context. I have no hidden agendas...

<small>[ November 22, 2002, 04:55 AM: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</small>

BTDT-
you of all people should know that I NEVER apologize unless i'm really convinced that i'm wrong.

That said, I apologize for the misinterp of your comments. I can't even find what you said on this thread, but I read it to imply that all single mothers should feel shame. Or that we all felt shame and were not willing to admit it.

My child is not the product of my 10 year EMA so he's a different situation all together. I incorrectly assumed that you were projecting your shame onto others. I apologize.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Katie Scarlett:
<strong>BTDT-
you of all people should know that I NEVER apologize unless i'm really convinced that i'm wrong.

That said, I apologize for the misinterp of your comments. I can't even find what you said on this thread, but I read it to imply that all single mothers should feel shame. Or that we all felt shame and were not willing to admit it.

My child is not the product of my 10 year EMA so he's a different situation all together. I incorrectly assumed that you were projecting your shame onto others. I apologize.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Apology ACCEPTED! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ((CYBERHUGS)) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I think I might be guilty of projecting at times, but on this board I try to remember that my opinions are related to my experience, nothing more. And you know, our opinions can only be based on two things--what we have experienced and what we have not!!! We think we would react a certain way if... but in a given situation, we find we are capable of stooping way low or rising above--it IS our choice!

Think about it... You KNOW who has not experienced infidelity in their marriage because they are the first ones to say DUMP the WS! Including Dr. Harley!!! OCs tend to make or break a marriage altogether. But you know, I wonder what someone would REALLY do if this happened to them--single OW with OC. It's easy for a BS to say, adopt out the OC or abort the OC but in a single OW shoes, what would they REALLY have in their heart to do? Think about it before just reacting... And I already kinda know the answer--they would NOT be an OW in the first place! See, I rest my case! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> (no flames intended please believe me!)

And although I am a wife without any affairs in my marriage... I believe I could/would forgive my H if he chose to have an affair. I also know that I would be the OW's worst nightmare! She would wish she never set eyes on my husband! I would probably be ALL in her face, yes, with my Christian beliefs and everything... I don't think I could rise above as so many of the BS's here on this forum have. I applaud you all... And, I understand the rage as well... HUGS to everyone... We need this place! We need each others' prayers and support...

<small>[ November 22, 2002, 01:18 PM: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</small>