Okay, so now this leads me to the point that mo5 and CMiranda have been attempting to make--WHY is it so easy for a BS to forgive their WS--who chose the affair as much as the OP? Hmmm.... something to think about...

In my mind, perhaps it boils down to the BS wanting to keep their family intact and wanting to keep their WS in their life MORESO than the OP. OP turns into an enemy and the WS turns into an ally--at least, that is the best case scenario...

So what do you do when the OP starts making demands or pushing their way into the established family unit due to their OC's rights, for lack of a better word? ????

Well see, then, I would have an all-out WAR on my hands! There ARE no easy answers to this! I already know myself enough to accept that I could not be as civil as mo5 has been in blending the two families for the OC's sake. I think I might be much too close-minded for that...

<small>[ November 22, 2002, 01:22 PM: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</small>

<<<WHY is it so easy for a BS to forgive their WS>>>
Who said it was easy. LOL
In my case , because my H asked for forgiveness and spends every waking moment of everday trying to make ammends for what he has done.
OW has not asked me to forgive her. She feels she did nothing wrong.

jtigger

Honestly, as an unmarried person who has had MANY affairs, if my H cheats I don't think i'd throw him out. Certainly it's a personal decision, but I just don't think that I would.

Now if he kep doing it, that's a whole other ball of wax. We're happliy monogomous now. But I still find myself doing some light man shopping from time to time. No sampling, just shopping.

I think the reason that I don't cheat now is that what we have is so hard fought.

Well, BTDT, I hope that closed mind opens up so you can be the Christian woman you state and not let other people's sins send you to >>>>>>>>! Have a good one!

I still don't get it. C Miranda, I don't think I will ever understand you all together.

YOu obviously find it nearly impossible to put yourself in my position. Or any of the BS position. Have you ever thought of your MM"s wife and how she might feel if she found out about what you and her H have done? Have you?

Who should I empathize with? The OW who has destroyed much of my life?why? She is my enemy. NOthing more. I feel no sympathy nor empathy for her. She feels no remorse towards me, just has made multiple demands on me, my H, and family. With those circumstances, why should I feel sympathy or empathy for her?

For the record, I am a usually compassionate woman. I have no compassion for people who deliberately hurt others. No one will convince me that many OW, in the throws of lust or love or whatever for MM, do not hurt the BS. It is implicit in the arrangement.

The only OW on this forum I view as worthy of empathy is Obratti, for she did not know her man was married, and BTDT, who truly is remorseful and has gone on to live her life without involvement of the MM"s family. ANd even OBratti is able to state some accountability for her decisions and all.

For the record, Catnip was right earlier. The only ones responsible for A were the people involved. In my case, that was H and OW. NOT ME. You can speak volumes about how your H wasn't meeting your needs, CM, and guess whether I was meeting my H's needs, but even if both those assumptions are true, my H and OW made a huge error, as you did with your MM. AS I heard DR. Phil state on his show this week related to infidelity, what one should not do in marriages , is turn outside to heal something inside of it. That is what my H did that was so wrong, that is what OW did that was so wrong. His attempts to go outside our marriage only has destroyed parts that will never be restored. He and I have lost much, and I resent that very much.

Also, I haven't forgiven H. It isn't easy. I don't feel the same toward him, doubt I ever will. This whole experience has destroyed my feelings of respect, loyalty, desire, love, etc. It will not come back easily. I am not sure it is even worth trying to get it back.

I just think people should start looking at their own responsibility for the affair.The only ones guilty of it are the involved people. Casting blame onto others for it doesn't absolve those involved people . No one is to blame but the affair partners.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">binthere
Okay, so now this leads me to the point that mo5 and CMiranda have been attempting to make--WHY is it so easy for a BS to forgive their WS--who chose the affair as much as the OP? Hmmm.... something to think about...

I would guess the same for other couples. They love each other and they know they were part of the breakdown in some way, in my husbands case he knew I had spent years dealing with his infidelity.He knew what had led me to my friend. [b]We had both done damage over the years and new we needed to make our family work, If we both felt there was a marriage to save. AND we decided there was. [/b]

In my mind, perhaps it boils down to the BS wanting to keep their family intact and wanting to keep their WS in their life MORESO than the OP. OP turns into an enemy and the WS turns into an ally--at least, that is the best case scenario...

So what do you do when the OP starts making demands or pushing their way into the established family unit due to their OC's rights, for lack of a better word? ???? COPROMISE COMPROMISE COMPROMISE. One of the hardest things for me to learn, I am used to getting my way.
Well see, then, I would have an all-out WAR on my hands! There ARE no easy answers to this! AMEN I already know myself enough to accept that I could not be as civil as mo5 has been in blending the two families for the OC's sake. I think I might be much too close-minded for that...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You seem to think I have another choice...

<small>[ November 22, 2002, 05:14 PM: Message edited by: mom of five ]</small>

my my my CM,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">3. If the WS expresses honesty about giving spouse a chance to meet needs but BS does not, it does not constitute any wrong doing to the marital relationship and the WS is being 'childish'. The BS behavior or withholding of certain behaviors, does not affect the decision made by the WS to engage in affair?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, so how 'bout this senario.

I withhold sex from my husband. I'm being childish and not meeting his emotional or physcial needs. He goes out depressed/angry/whatever and drinks up half the bar. Then kills someone in a D.U.I. on his way home. Does that mean I'm responsible "to some degree" for the death of that innocent victim?

and i put "to some degree" in quotation marks because of what you said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, others have their major role, but so too does the spouse of the ws to varying degrees.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">CM Please explain using my analogy how a spouse is responsible for a BAD decision the other spouse makes.

It just isn't logical. And it just ain't right.

I refuse to take responsibility to a choice he and his ego made. And I hold him responsible for that choice.

I hold her responsible for her bad choices too.

I only hold myself accountable for my portion that contributed to the breakdown of the marriage. Everything and anything that happened outside of our marriage was squarely on their sholders.

Bottom line ... you are that miserable in a relationship ... you either get counseling and work on it or you get a divorce. Easy enough in this day and age of quickie divorce. That's the RIGHT way to deal with it. Not out trampling all over innocent people (BS and children of the marriage) and creating other innocent victims (OC)!

CM anxiously awaiting your reply,
Z.

Some clarification is in order here.

BTDT, You made a comment that I first seen in M05's reply to you. I don't know how you've determined that the point I'm trying to make (along with M05) is that it is so easy for the BS to forgive the WS. I do think there is a contradiction where WS is seen as the victim by many of the BS's here, and OP as the "perp", but that is not a point I'm trying to make here. I agree with M05 in pointing it out, but I think I understand why the BS would focus on the OP and not the WS. In part, I believe it is easier to focus on OP and to avoid looking at how BS contributed to the WS unhappy state. I'm not blaming BS, we are ultimately responsible for our own happiness. If WS is/was unhappy, it can not be blamed completely on anyone. Just as the A can not be blamed on some OP seducing the poor WS.
We all own our role in it.

ZB, You've completely misunderstood what I am saying in quote #3. I'm taking and turning what Ohbratti said to ask her if childishness (her word not mine) extends as well to the BS who tries to dodge their role in the marital breakdown? I use my case as an example. However, my H has owned his actions, or lack thereof. I think men handle these situations differently. He is much more focused on us and where we went wrong not to mention his own behavior that contributed to our emotional disconnect. We are both responsible, over years, toward the breakdown of our marriage. It was not one night, one bad decision. Nonetheless, I never said that a spouse is responsible for a bad decision the other spouse makes. I don't believe that. What I am saying is that both marriage partners are responsible for the breakdown in their marriage, not only the WS. Just as both affair partners are responsible for the A, not just the OP.

I used to feel the same way that you describe ZB. If you are that miserable, just get a divorce.
I soppose there are varying degrees of miserable; yet I also found out that people stay married for a variety of reasons. Right or wrong, it is the truth. The best part about staying for the wrong reason is it is possible to make the marriage a happy and fullfilling once again. If 2 people can make their way back to eachother and find happiness again, it is a great accomplishment and worth celebrating.

CM

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by unhappy wife:
<strong>I still don't get it. C Miranda, I don't think I will ever understand you all together.

YOu obviously find it nearly impossible to put yourself in my position. Or any of the BS position. Have you ever thought of your MM"s wife and how she might feel if she found out about what you and her H have done? Have you?

Who should I empathize with? The OW who has destroyed much of my life?why? She is my enemy. NOthing more. I feel no sympathy nor empathy for her. She feels no remorse towards me, just has made multiple demands on me, my H, and family. With those circumstances, why should I feel sympathy or empathy for her?

For the record, I am a usually compassionate woman. I have no compassion for people who deliberately hurt others. No one will convince me that many OW, in the throws of lust or love or whatever for MM, do not hurt the BS. It is implicit in the arrangement.

The only OW on this forum I view as worthy of empathy is Obratti, for she did not know her man was married, and BTDT, who truly is remorseful and has gone on to live her life without involvement of the MM"s family. ANd even OBratti is able to state some accountability for her decisions and all.

For the record, Catnip was right earlier. The only ones responsible for A were the people involved. In my case, that was H and OW. NOT ME. You can speak volumes about how your H wasn't meeting your needs, CM, and guess whether I was meeting my H's needs, but even if both those assumptions are true, my H and OW made a huge error, as you did with your MM. AS I heard DR. Phil state on his show this week related to infidelity, what one should not do in marriages , is turn outside to heal something inside of it. That is what my H did that was so wrong, that is what OW did that was so wrong. His attempts to go outside our marriage only has destroyed parts that will never be restored. He and I have lost much, and I resent that very much.

Also, I haven't forgiven H. It isn't easy. I don't feel the same toward him, doubt I ever will. This whole experience has destroyed my feelings of respect, loyalty, desire, love, etc. It will not come back easily. I am not sure it is even worth trying to get it back.

I just think people should start looking at their own responsibility for the affair.The only ones guilty of it are the involved people. Casting blame onto others for it doesn't absolve those involved people . No one is to blame but the affair partners.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">UW,

I am talking about empathy, not sympathy. I can empathize a great deal with the BS. More than perhaps I communicated effectively on this board.
I have gotten stuck in the blame game and that is why I pointed it out to you. It is a part of the cycle toward recoverying. Yet, it rings so loudly from you that you blame OP and OW, even OC for all of your marital problems and it simply can't be true. You have some role in that. No, you aren't responsible for WS's choice to have an affair. Absolutely not, not any BS. I'm not saying that at all. What I am saying is what about you, the BS? Do you not have to reflect on you and determine where it is that you are in need of improvement? Did you not contribute the state of your M pre-affair? The marriage is about the 2 married people. The OP can not infringe upon nor come between people who are happy and fullfilled and where they want to be at the time of the A.
You are very judgemental here, do you not believe that comes across to your ws?
If you think I'm unworthy of empathy, that's fine. I do not seek empathy from you. You empathize with someone who you can agree with. To me, that is not true empathy at all.
If you continue to blame, you become a prisioner of hate and unhappiness to the very people you are so focused on. What is wrong with spending some time looking within UW? Surely you can not be perfect.

CM

<small>[ November 23, 2002, 10:10 AM: Message edited by: CMiranda ]</small>

It isn't easy to forgive the WS. I remember days looking at him and thinking of being with OW and being sick to my stomach. I remember thinking how could I be intimate with him after he had been intimate with her. The intimacies he shared with her were supposed to shared with ME alone. Thinking the few times I kised him if he was comparing my kiss to hers, I could go on.
Trusting him to not do it again. My H traveled when he got involved with OW, he still travels. Even now, when our sex life falters due to his job and mine I wonder, The price he pays is when this happens I corner him and demand to know if he is sleeping with someone else. Because he knows that I won's tolerate it this time. If he ever cheats on me again. I walk and he will pay big time. I see the pain on his face as tells me no and says he wishes he had never been involved with OW for the millionth time.
If you think it was easy you're deluding yourself. And, yes, I came close to walking away, if I had been childless I might have. But I didn't, and I still loved him, there the was still the original person I married lurking there. The kind soul, loving person, the gentle man who would wrap his arms around me when I wept over his indiscretion and most important, HE didn't want to end it. He realized that the person he contemplated leaving me for was actually not the person he wanted to be with.
He realised that she was not worth the trials and tribulations he would have to go thru to be with her. Like I questioned his character, he questioned hers, what kind of woman would get involved with a married man. Would he want that woman to raise his children to be moral people. Would she be a good role model for his daughters?
He decided no.
One should always question if the person you're involved with is someone you want to meet your parents. He did not want his mother to meet this person.
Never believe that getting to this point was easy.

Texasgirl

CMiranda, you naively believe that all affairs are about troubled marriages. It isn't always so. I think people who get involved in affairs have some characterlogical defect that makes it o.k to do this. It would never be o.k to do this to my H by me.

Let me tell you. Of course I look back and see things I wish I had done differently in my marriage. I don't hide from that. But like texasgirl said, my H was never direct about what he was not happy with-merely indirect and not clear. Instead of trying to do that with me, he took an easy road and did that with a stranger, the OW. He took an easy way out, and ruined his relationship with me.

Even the therapists we have seen say he did not talk to me directly, spell it out, etc. He made that mistake. I am not responsible for that.

That said, as I look back during the years of the A, I realize I was quite unhappy with him and his demeanor and attitude toward me. He was cruel, critical, uncaring and not loving toward me. I often thought that about him. I often felt unhappy, felt he was not meeting my needs.

But I didn't seek an affair, and trust me, there have been times in my life where a few opportunities arose with attractive single and married men expressed interest in such a relationship. I was unhappy-I wasn't having my needs met-why didn't I have an affair?

Why? Because my vows mattered to me-because doing that to my H was abhorent to me. Because I valued him even when he wasn't meeting my needs.Because within me, doing this to him wasn't going to happen. I couldn't do it-even to get my needs met.

So what is the difference between him and me-- weakness, addiction, character flaws, etc. We both may have needs that weren't being met-- but he chose a path that made problems even bigger.

I think he is more to blame, as is the OW. You will never convince me otherwise.

<small>[ November 23, 2002, 12:21 PM: Message edited by: unhappy wife ]</small>

Hi Guys ....

OW #1 apologized to me.

When OW #1 apologized she said she was very sorry for sending me a Hallmark Baby Announcement card in the mail. On the front of the card it had a picture of a beautiful newborn and when you opened it, was preprinted:

"Enjoy Every Precious Moment"

and she wrote this:

"Steve's done it AGAIN, I'm pregnant with his baby and due in early November"

By "AGAIN" she meant that OW #2 had just 2 mos before had my H's first child, which was devistating for me, as you all may know. To then receive her card in the mail was a blow that almost put me in the rubber room.

But she did apologize 7+ years later and I told her that I forgave her. She also said that she would have never had an affair with my H if she would have known me. By that I think she meant she ended up liking me, and hurting me made her feel bad about herself.

Jo

<small>[ November 23, 2002, 02:34 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]</small>

[QUOTE]Originally posted by unhappy wife:
[qb]CMiranda, you naively believe that all affairs are about troubled marriages. It isn't always so. I think people who get involved in affairs have some characterlogical defect that makes it o.k to do this. It would never be o.k to do this to my H by me.

---> I speak from my own experience. That is the case with ex-om and I. It is the case of others I communicate with about their affairs. I'm sure what you say is true, there are several types of affairs. I don't believe it is characteristic. There is an inherent lack of evidence to support your claim. If that were true, MB wouldn't exist would it? One of the greatest advantages to affair proofing a marraige is honesty and meeting partners needs. Remember?

Let me tell you. Of course I look back and see things I wish I had done differently in my marriage. I don't hide from that. But like texasgirl said, my H was never direct about what he was not happy with-merely indirect and not clear. Instead of trying to do that with me, he took an easy road and did that with a stranger, the OW. He took an easy way out, and ruined his relationship with me.

----> I can so respect your experience with your H. He sounds like alot of men regarding lack of communication skills in sharing their feelings and needs. I've also mentioned this in my past posts on this thread as a major problem for female BS's. I was forthcoming in my feelings with my H but that is probably because I'm female and expressing my feelings is fairly easy for me.

Even the therapists we have seen say he did not talk to me directly, spell it out, etc. He made that mistake. I am not responsible for that.

----> You are right 100% about that.

That said, as I look back during the years of the A, I realize I was quite unhappy with him and his demeanor and attitude toward me. He was cruel, critical, uncaring and not loving toward me. I often thought that about him. I often felt unhappy, felt he was not meeting my needs.

---> Did you tell him so?

But I didn't seek an affair, and trust me, there have been times in my life where a few opportunities arose with attractive single and married men expressed interest in such a relationship. I was unhappy-I wasn't having my needs met-why didn't I have an affair?

---> Okay, let me tell you something very frankly UW. I didn't seek an A either. I too was unhappy, frustrated, tired, uncared for, etc. I didn't seek out anyone and there were occasions when I had to shun being hit on and flirted with my men. I wasn't seeking an affair. It went against what I was raised to believe was right. It went against my grain and my value system. I met a guy that became my friend. We were assigned to work on a long term project together. We worked nights and weekends together. We began to communicate about everything from problem solving on the job, to our college days, etc. He met my #1 need, which at the time I didn't even identify as something that I needed so much. It wasn't a plan. I didn't go out and say, hey, here is a man, any man, who I threw to the ground, tore off his clothes and had an A with him. That isn't exactly how these things work.

Why? Because my vows mattered to me-because doing that to my H was abhorent to me. Because I valued him even when he wasn't meeting my needs.Because within me, doing this to him wasn't going to happen. I couldn't do it-even to get my needs met.

---> My vows mattered to me. If you think the WS doesn't care about vows, you are mistaken. I believed our vows didn't matter to my H anymore. He was ignoring me and ignoring what I was telling him for a long time about how our M was failing and why I felt that was happening.

So what is the difference between him and me-- weakness, addiction, character flaws, etc. We both may have needs that weren't being met-- but he chose a path that made problems even bigger.

---> The problems sure do get bigger. Ask any ws if they think when going into it, that there problems will get bigger? In my case the answer was obviously no! Even when I didn't get caught, my/our problems still got much bigger..MUCH BIGGER. I don't agree with the character flaw theory. If that were the case, I would think I'd have been a cheater much earlier in my life. I've been faced with problems before where my needs weren't met, I was seperated from my then boyfriend, now H, during my college years, andwhatever, and still I didn't cheat.

I think he is more to blame, as is the OW. You will never convince me otherwise.

---> I'm not interested in convincing you. Its really your loss, not mine. My H is much more open to his role than to blaming me or om. I'm much more willing to accept my role because of his lack of blaming me for all his/our problems. His finger isn't in my face all day long, month after month, nor is mine in his face. Actually there are no fingers flying anywhere. It just doesn't work. My M is getting better everyday. Is yours?

<small>[ November 23, 2002, 01:28 PM: Message edited by: CMiranda ]</small>

Can we get back to what is helpful to save marriages??

Has this bickering thread actually helped anyone?

pj3 said: I've noticed alot of threads where people are asking for help and only get a few responses or it turns into a "who's right" post.

Sad but true.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CMiranda:
<strong>There is an inherent lack of evidence to support your claim.

=^^= What is it?

If that were true, MB wouldn't exist would it?

=^^- Are you being snotty?

One of the greatest advantages to affair proofing a marraige is honesty and meeting partners needs. Remember?

=^^= Are you being snotty?

I don't agree with the character flaw theory.

=^^= Why not?

I think he is more to blame, as is the OW. You will never convince me otherwise.

I'm not interested in convincing you.

=^^= Are you being snotty?

Its really your loss, not mine.

=^^= What does this mean? What is UW's "loss" and how is it applicable to what she stated to you?
My M is getting better everyday. Is yours?

=^^= What is this? Nah, nah, nah, nah, nah? Or does this mean you and your husband have embarked on your recovery with your Rules of Honesty intact and your D-day behind you? If so, a hearty congratulations. Am I being snotty?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jenny:
<strong>Can we get back to what is helpful to save marriages??

Has this bickering thread actually helped anyone?

pj3 said: I've noticed alot of threads where people are asking for help and only get a few responses or it turns into a "who's right" post.

Sad but true.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's because there are too many OW's on this site who inflame us and push our buttons...constantly. They should have their own seperate site.

I am sorry, Jen. You are absolutely right and I apologize for getting in one last lick but I have really, really, really had it and I am not going to be any easier to live with these next few days. Sorry. I'll try to do better.

The bickering is horrible and I am sick of it but I can't stand these people continuing to snark us at every turn, at every issue. It has got to stop.

Catnip,
I explained myself throughly in my post to uw. Please reread it again and try to remain unbiased, the answers to your questions are in there.
p.s. I've always been direct, that is my nature. I'm not being snotty.

CM

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by catnip:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jenny:
<strong>Can we get back to what is helpful to save marriages??

Has this bickering thread actually helped anyone?

pj3 said: I've noticed alot of threads where people are asking for help and only get a few responses or it turns into a "who's right" post.

Sad but true.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's because there are too many OW's on this site who inflame us and push our buttons...constantly. They should have their own seperate site.

I am sorry, Jen. You are absolutely right and I apologize for getting in one last lick but I have really, really, really had it and I am not going to be any easier to live with these next few days. Sorry. I'll try to do better.

The bickering is horrible and I am sick of it but I can't stand these people continuing to snark us at every turn, at every issue. It has got to stop.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Doesn't anyone see that blaming doesn't work? This is so exaggerated. Go and thank malc if you want to start pointing your finger.

Ladies,

This is a waste of energy. I'd suggest that you channel your energy back into building your marriages. If you have extra energy, perhaps sit down and ask God to help you really see the situation from the other side---without hate. Try to put yourself in the other's shoes, and have some compassion. Compassion doesn't mean agreement. It doesn't mean you have to like them. And in the case of some, it may not even change your mind much (for those blessed with dealing with pathological psycho-types).

I sit here and think tonight of my wife's OM. I wonder how he feels about having left a child behind. Does he hurt? Does he ache to know what has happened? And I ask God to relieve this man's pain and doubts, and let him know that this child will be well-cared for.

It doesn't mean that I want the OM in our lives, or that I'll send him a family Christmas card. But it helps to demonstrate that the world isn't always so black and white. We're soon beginning a season which celebrates the birth of a small child who eventually died for our sins... all of us. Think about his example.

And the people of God said "Amen and amen."

With that, I hope that we will leave this thread.

Shalom,
MJ