The other thread has gotten WAY too long but I just want to make sure I get the jest of what our OWs are telling us.

1. The BS is equally to blame for the affair.
2. It is perfectly OK to take a man's ( and his wife's ) money because he owes it to the child without wanting him involved in that child's life. (Of course all OW scream constantly about how MM should stand up and play daddy)
3. Women do not have all the choices in reproduction. Men have choices too. ( I'm still waiting for an explanation on that one )
4. MM owe OW an apology . ( ?????????????? )
5. OW owe no apologies or explanations to BS because they did nothing to them . ( again ??????)
6. Everyone should show some compassion for OW because they too are in pain. ( thats my favorite )

Have I missed anything ?
Catnip, I must be on the same acid trip you are because NONE of this makes any since to me .

jtigger

<small>[ November 21, 2002, 01:45 PM: Message edited by: Jtigger ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jtigger:
<strong>The other thread has gotten WAY too long but I just want to make sure I get the jest of what our OWs are telling us.

1. The BS is equally to blame for the affair.

Some OP's are telling us that. To have an affair before trying to amend a problem is sophmoric thinking. Then again that is ow thinking. Ow in my case wrote and told me that if I was so good in bed H would't have wanted her. With that reasoning, I wonder why H is still here and not with her? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

2. It is perfectly OK to take a man's ( and his wife's ) money because he owes it to the child without wanting him involved in that child's life. (Of course all OW scream constantly about how MM should stand up and play daddy)

Well JTigger, that's exactly what happened here. At first ow said she'd do it alone.....Then she wanted a full time dad w/o me around, she actually expected H to stop by each day after work since we live so close. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> When THAT didn't fly she went to a lawyer and wrote us a letter saying that if H couldn't be there full time she's gonna make him pay through CS, that he should be doing something for their child.

3. Women do not have all the choices in reproduction. Men have choices too. ( I'm still waiting for an explanation on that one )

Ow here said H had a choice not to enjoy her in bed so much....it's typical ow (who don't yet get it)thinking. Childish talk of how MM knows how babies are made.
We all know how eh?
In a lot of cases ow are busy lying about BC, then they want a different reaction to an UNWANTED pregnancy. Heck if they didn't lie, pregnancy should be a wanted outcome, but it usually sends MM running for their lives. A wakeup call.
Sex w/anyone doesn't = wanting a child...If pregnancy were a positive outcome of sex, every time, no one would do it. Especially a man, who as you say gets stuck footing the bill for a child he never intended on having in the first place. CS is many times retaliation...make the as* pay. "I'll show him he can't do this to me." "I have the law on my side" Not always but a lot of times it's that type of thinking.

4. MM owe OW an apology . ( ?????????????? )

For what? A gift they never wanted to receive? "I'm so sorry you kept this child against my wishes OP. It'll never happen again, promise".

5. OW owe no apologies or explanations to BS because they did nothing to them . ( again ??????)

Ow did it to herself. I don't look for an apology. She thinks it is perfectly ok since H was there to help her you know?

6. Everyone should show some compassion for OW because they too are in pain. ( thats my favorite )

My compassion lies with ow's children and oc and her H and family as they were just as devastated upon their own D-Day as me and our son and family.

Ow made very poor choices.

Have I missed anything ?

Not that I can see!

Catnip, I must be on the same acid trip you are because NONE of this makes any since to me .

jtigger</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes it does, consider who's saying it.

love
Debi

1. The BS is equally to blame for the affair.

No way! If there is any blame on the BS, it is for whatever occurred within the marriage, if anything. Once the WS CHOSE to go outside the marriage, for whatever reason, that was the WS&#8217;s decision and sole responsibility. There may have been mitigating factors that led them to believe it was okay to stray, but the final choice was theirs and theirs alone. Going hand in hand with the WS&#8217;s decision is the OP being an accomplice to that choice.

2. It is perfectly OK to take a man's ( and his wife's ) money because he owes it to the child without wanting him involved in that child's life. (Of course all OW scream constantly about how MM should stand up and play daddy)

Nope, again. Regardless of whether money is being exchanged or not, the non-custodial parent should always have the right to participate in their child&#8217;s life. Whether they exercise that right or not is their personal decision. We cannot force involvement and should not deny it, unless there is a danger to the child. Even then, we cannot arbitrarily decide to deny visitation. I believe in due process, even if it doesn&#8217;t always work in my favor.

3. Women do not have all the choices in reproduction. Men have choices too. ( I'm still waiting for an explanation on that one )

I&#8217;m kind of torn on this one. I&#8217;ve always argued that when a man makes the conscious decision to have sex, he is doing it with full knowledge of what COULD happen. Even if all precautionary measures are taken, there is still a slim chance of conception. This is not top secret information. All methods of birth control have this disclaimer. So even if the OW lied about birth control, the man could have safely assumed that he could still father a child if he proceeded with intercourse. He took a gamble and lost. Unfortunately, he did not realize all that was at stake. From that position, I move on to the decisions regarding WHAT to do after conception. Again, it is public knowledge that the final decision lies with the woman. If a man knows
a) that he could potentially conceive a child and
b) that if he DID conceive a child, that the woman had the legal right to decide how to proceed with the pregnancy

and he opted to have sex, he does so knowing he could possibly end up being a father to a child he may not want. He let caution and common sense fly out the window. Up until the point of conception, the man still has a choice. Once he decides to move forward with the act, he gave up control over the potential outcomes. He may have only wanted a quick moment of meaningless pleasure and got a lot more than he bargained for. I say all of this in reference to the male side of this ONLY.

4. MM owe OW an apology . ( ?????????????? )

Anyone who commits an act of wrongdoing on another, should apologize&#8230;be it OP, WS, or BS.

5. OW owe no apologies or explanations to BS because they did nothing to them . ( again ??????)

Don&#8217;t agree with this either. Just like the WS could have said no, so could have the OW. They both committed a foul act against an undeserving party, regardless of the condition of the marriage. When you bump into someone on the street, don&#8217;t you apologize or excuse yourself? A transgression is a transgression. You apologize!

6. Everyone should show some compassion for OW because they too are in pain.

I received a good deal of compassion from the folks here. Let me tell you, it went a long way. However, BS's have been through a lot. You don't "owe" the OW compassion. Again, it's just my opinion, but if the OW is in pain, it's a pain she helped come to fruition.

This is just how I feel. I don&#8217;t presume to speak for other OW.

OB1

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The other thread has gotten WAY too long but I just want to make sure I get the jest of what our OWs are telling us.

1. The BS is equally to blame for the affair.

i DONT RECALL ME SAYING THAT OR THINKING THAT.
2. It is perfectly OK to take a man's ( and his wife's ) money because he owes it to the child without wanting him involved in that child's life.
It is perfectly ok for a woman to recieve child support from a man who fathered her child, whether he is involved or not.. that is correct. although that is a personal decision and I would recomend going it alone if you can.
(Of course all OW scream constantly about how MM should stand up and play daddy)
I would guess they are all not worthy to e daddys, but yes, I do think a man should feel some sense of responsibility for his his child.. But I also think if he is not intrested, as a mother, why would you want a man like that in his/her life!?

3. Women do not have all the choices in reproduction. Men have choices too. ( I'm still waiting for an explanation on that one )

This one amazes me to no end.. Men have the ultimate choice, they could have kept it at home and said no, it is so simple,
4. MM owe OW an apology . ( ?????????????? )

I dont recall saying this, I am not sure who thinks this, I got an apolog, But didnt really care if I gfot one or not. although, I dont think it would have killed him to make amends with my husband,
5. OW owe no apologies or explanations to BS because they did nothing to them . ( again ??????)

I would guess many of us differ on this one, But I would bet the main one who should be apologizing is WS to BS. I never wanted to hear crap from husbands women, why would I .

6. Everyone should show some compassion for OW because they too are in pain. ( thats my favorite ) I just think compassion and respect have to be equally shared if you are dealing with a child if your not, I odnt care if you spit in her face, makes no difference to me.. But if you are trying to care for someones child and developing a relationship with that child, yes you have to suck it up sometimes,... those who have no contact... who cares.
Have I missed anything ?
Catnip, I must be on the same acid trip you are because NONE of this makes any since to me .

I think it is so hard to try and lump us all in the same boat.. because we are infact so different. BS, WS OP.. We are still people and have thoughts and feelings. in that respect we are all the same.. They are just different thoughts and feelings thats all.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

<small>[ November 21, 2002, 03:30 PM: Message edited by: mom of five ]</small>

You noticed there were several ws's and ow posting and we all had a different idea...

by the way sorry about caps, some day I will send this in and fix it. haha

Maybe one would not expect an apology from OW if there is no child involved. However, if there is an OC, just my opinion, the OW might extend a SINCERE apology as a beginning to paving the way to the relationship she claims she wants for her child. These are three adults who have to be involved with a child, shouldn't they demonstrate to the child how one takes responsibility for THEIR actions. By apologizing to the BS, OW is assuming her responsibility for the affair. In most cases the H has already expressed his remorse. I know mine has.
Someone mentioned the sex part. Funny, my H is out of town this week, we were talking on the phone about sex. I told him I was sorry, but after 9 years the question begged to be asked. So I asked, how good was sex with the OW? He told me that it was straight sex and what we have is sooooo much better than the sex with her. His affair wasn't really about sex, but his ego. She boosted his self-esteem, something I didn't know he needed to have boosted. He told me that he can remember liasons with me in much greater detail, than any liasons with her.Even liasons we had earlier in marriage, before affair. Now, when he thinks of sex with her it is a turn off, sex with me, even over the phone is major turn on.
Anyone heard similar views their WS's?

I have heard apologies from him, and he did tell her he was sorry, but in reality he wanted me not her.

Texasgirl.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jtigger:

1. The BS is equally to blame for the affair.

---->No one ever said equally to blame. What I said is simply BS has a role in the state of the marriage and breakdown in the relationship with their WS. The M is about the 2 people engaging in it.How is it that anyone can honestly say that BS is completely innocent for the unhappiness of their mate? I said this because Catnip responded to KS, saying the only innocent one in all this was the OC. She chimed in so too was the BS. I disagreed with that statement. No, BS isn't responsible for WS DECISION to have A. Yes, BS is responsible for their 1/2 of the partnership that isn't working for obvious reasons.

2. It is perfectly OK to take a man's ( and his wife's ) money because he owes it to the child without wanting him involved in that child's life. (Of course all OW scream constantly about how MM should stand up and play daddy)

---> I don't want my -ex to play daddy. Too late for that. He is lacking in values in my opinion at this time and isn't worthy. I don't particularly want his money either. However, I haven't ruled it at this stage of MY recovery. I may decide it is the least he can do.

3. Women do not have all the choices in reproduction. Men have choices too. ( I'm still waiting for an explanation on that one )

----> What don't you get? Can a man not put on a condom? Does he have responsiblities to protect himself, OP, and his BS from std's? Is he so stupid that he assumes OW is using BC? Does he not know how to keep his seed from being distributed? Hello? Since when is bc the sole responsiblity of the woman? In my case, I was using bc. OM assumed however,now what if I wasn't?
Drop the poor little man position. My -ex was in so much of a hurry to rip off my clothes he never would have taken the 10 seconds to put on a condom. Even when I told him I was on antibiotics.

4. MM owe OW an apology . ( ?????????????? )

----> Yes. Just as OW owes MM an apology if she hurt him. Just as you all say she owes you one. If you hurt someone, apologize. Lets share the loving gesters. Just as MM owes you one for hurting you. What is so hard to grasp here? Do you not understand WS and OP had a relationship in some case for years?

5. OW owe no apologies or explanations to BS because they did nothing to them . ( again ??????)

-----> I dont' think I ever said this. I feel if an apology is to happen, it has to come in time and when the person feels genuinly sorry. I personally, at this stage, don't feel sorry for having the affair with her H. I feel sorry for what I did to my H, not to her. She is still living in blissful ignorance. If that changes, then I will mostly probably feel sorry.

6. Everyone should show some compassion for OW because they too are in pain. ( thats my favorite )

----> If you think that's funny, get this one.
OP should feel compassion for BS. LEts not forget the monkey in the middle is WS. BS and OP don't have anything in common except love for WS. Its harder to muster up compassion on your end? Well, it is no different for OP. Hello?

Have I missed anything ?
Catnip, I must be on the same acid trip you are because NONE of this makes any since to me .

----> Yes, acid indeed. Qualoods, reefer, and vodka on the rocks. This is not just about YOU and YOUR feelings. I wonder, did you listein this poorly when your ws was trying to tell you what was missing? My H didn't listein but he was actually in the bottle. You seem to be on some level, in denial that you own apart of the bad marriage.

cm

When did the WS ever tell his wife/husband that there were problems? I know rom my experience, he NEVER said word one. I am not a mind reader.
That is one for the first things counselors tell you. If there is a problem in the relationship, the party with the problem needs to bring it up. He never said anything until he started sleeping with her.
It was his responsibility to express his needs and what was missing. I was busy trying to pay the bill, run the house, take care of 4 children, keeping two teen age sons in line and out of trouble, while he was in another state enjoying dinners for two while I spent my weekends at home with the kids. You know we lived on an Army base I could have got it on with another man, but I didn't because I respected my marriage vows and I respected the person I married, as well as my children.
There is no high road when it comes to affairs,adultery, The people who get involved in affairs are owed nothing. They should be ashamed of their actions.

<<<I may decide it is the least he can do. >>>

The least he can do for what ??!!
You BOTH agreed to the affair. YOU decided to have a baby. That was your decision now take responsibilty for it.

<<<Can a man not put on a condom? >>>
Even when I was in high school I knew better than to have sex unless he did use a condom. Even in sex the woman has the final say. No condom, no sex.

<<<I wonder, did you listein this poorly when your ws was trying to tell you what was missing? >>>

CM, You speak of things you don't know. But just to educate you...
The problem in my marriage at the time of my H's affair was I was recovering from a year long bout of chemotherapy and radiation for breast cancer. I didn't have the energy to take care of his emotional needs much less physical needs. OW was extremely happy to take care of the physical ones with the added comment that maybe she would get lucky and the breast cancer would kill me.
Now, since you are the expert about the workings of everyones marriage, please tell me just what could I have done to prevent this. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

<<<If you hurt someone, apologize>>>
Thats kind of hypocritical coming from you given your stance on apologizing to his wife.

jtigger

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jtigger:
[QB]<<<I may decide it is the least he can do. >>>

The least he can do for what ??!!
You BOTH agreed to the affair. YOU decided to have a baby. That was your decision now take responsibilty for it.

---> We BOTH agreed that if I ever became PG, that we'd keep the baby. I chose to stay with my H when that event happened. That completely surprised MY OM. He has told me, if I didn't choose that route, things would be very different today. He also told me that if my H and I wanted him to pay support, he would. You wanna argue with that JT?!

<<<Can a man not put on a condom? >>>
Even when I was in high school I knew better than to have sex unless he did use a condom. Even in sex the woman has the final say. No condom, no sex.

---> Maybe for you. That sounds like a personal decision. Just as with some men, no condom, no sex. I personally don't like condoms. Your arguement has sunk here.

<<<I wonder, did you listein this poorly when your ws was trying to tell you what was missing? >>>

CM, You speak of things you don't know. But just to educate you...
The problem in my marriage at the time of my H's affair was I was recovering from a year long bout of chemotherapy and radiation for breast cancer. I didn't have the energy to take care of his emotional needs much less physical needs. OW was extremely happy to take care of the physical ones with the added comment that maybe she would get lucky and the breast cancer would kill me.
Now, since you are the expert about the workings of everyones marriage, please tell me just what could I have done to prevent this. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

----> Who said I am an expert on everyone's marriage? Look, if you or I were experts, we wouldn't be here.
I'm sorry about your cancer. That is terrible to put it mildly what happened. What kind of man cheats on his wife during this time?

<<<If you hurt someone, apologize>>>
Thats kind of hypocritical coming from you given your stance on apologizing to his wife.

---> I feel this way. If om is forced to tell her, I will feel much worse about what happened. Right now, she doesn't know. I feel much more sorry because my H is hurt. I've written an apology to her but it is written from the position that she's been told. I would feel sorry for hurting her with the knowledge of reality of her life and marriage.

jtigge

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Texasgirl:
<strong>When did the WS ever tell his wife/husband that there were problems? I know rom my experience, he NEVER said word one. I am not a mind reader.
That is one for the first things counselors tell you. If there is a problem in the relationship, the party with the problem needs to bring it up. He never said anything until he started sleeping with her.
It was his responsibility to express his needs and what was missing. I was busy trying to pay the bill, run the house, take care of 4 children, keeping two teen age sons in line and out of trouble, while he was in another state enjoying dinners for two while I spent my weekends at home with the kids. You know we lived on an Army base I could have got it on with another man, but I didn't because I respected my marriage vows and I respected the person I married, as well as my children.
There is no high road when it comes to affairs,adultery, The people who get involved in affairs are owed nothing. They should be ashamed of their actions.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I DID. Numerous times. I tried every which way I knew to get through to him. He was too busy drinking to hear me or to care.

<<<You wanna argue with that JT?!>>>

Nothing to argue about. If you gave him a choice and he made it, then all is fair.

<<<What kind of man cheats on his wife during this time?>>>

A very weak and selfish man that now spends everyday trying to make up for it. But the question must be asked what kind of scuzzy bytch would sleep with a man knowing that his wife is being treated for cancer and then say out loud to a room full of people that she hoped it killed her. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
Oh yeah CM, most OW are REAL class acts.

jtigger

Until an OW on this board has experienced being a BW and had their HUSBAND have a child with the OW .... I will continue to hold no credibility in their words regarding what they think or believe a BS should or should not FEEL, THINK or DO regarding the OC situation.

Let me clarify this so as not to be misunderstood, I believe OPs (OW & OM) presence on our boards is of great value, however, I don't believe they can offer advice about something they have not experienced. They have no frame of reference or experience to draw their conclusions from, PERIOD.

Best,
Jo

<small>[ November 23, 2002, 05:55 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]</small>

From an outsider looking in...

Alot of you on see things very onesided.

You say things are only your opinion but act as if they are fact.

If someone is not of the majority, and says something that might be true, they are persicuted. I've noticed this in a were a person cleary states several times in several posts of what they meant and some of you respond by disagreeing with a statement they, and then remake the same statement in your own words, and then, and only then can the statement be accepted.

I'm not going to waste my time quoting and unquoting.

It's funny for a board that is suppose to be about healing and support, some of you spend an awful lot of time being. I've noticed alot of threads where people are asking for help and only get a few responses or it turns into a "who's right" post.

I dont know any of you and I really hope some of you don't act this way in you normal day to day life. Maybe this board is your only outlet. Even though people say words are only words, those words represent who you are on this board.

So go ahead, flame away, quote and unquote me. Because if the shoe fits...

Have a Happy Thanksgiving and try to remember what your thankful for.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">CMiranda asked:
What kind of man cheats on his wife during this time?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Then JTigger responded:
A very weak and selfish man that now spends everyday trying to make up for it. But the question must be asked what kind of scuzzy bytch would sleep with a man knowing that his wife is being treated for cancer and then say out loud to a room full of people that she hoped it killed her. Oh yeah CM, most OW are REAL class acts.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">CMiranda,

My H was also having his affair while I was in cancer treatments. What was to have been 8 weeks of Rad treatments and topical chemo for cervical cancer, turned out to be 8 long horrible months ... only because of the emotional stress of his affair and the OW calling and leaving me msgs on our answering machine calling me a "Cancerous C-word". I have numerous tapes of her vulgarity. She was angry because my H hadn't left me and took her hatred of him out on me. Nice person, huh?

So, IMHO it's not uncommon to have OW become EXTREMELY preditorial and aggressive when it comes to taking what they want at any cost to anyone.

Jo

<small>[ November 23, 2002, 04:51 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]</small>

To condense what pj said:

Are we building marriages yet?

<small>[ November 24, 2002, 08:42 AM: Message edited by: catnip ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by K:
<strong>To condense what pj said:

Are we building marriages yet?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No. We are not. This is why having their own site is important for them and for us. We are not getting our issues discussed without them thwarting us with their bad manners.

I have sensitive issues to discuss and I do not feel free to do so with them here because I know from experience what will happen. I know most BS's here feel the same way. This is not beneficial for either side and the reason why so many have left.

You are highly respected here, K. Have you a solution?

catnip, have you ever thought bad manners run on both sides, I see no reason we cant get along with out trying to be mean,

I infact communicate with a COUPLE of BS from this site, and they seem to have no problem, distinguishing me and my experience from there, even through all the pain we all experience.