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#819502 02/26/03 02:12 AM
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Well me if I was dealing with a married man and me personally not MM, would take responsibilty for using some kind of birth control and if not done, then it would be my soul intent to get pregnant bottom line. Especially if I know I can concieve. I'm talking about my responsibilty as a women . Not flaming just being honest. He would definitely have to rap it up because of STD. Me personally would have told him to do this especially if we both are married. Someone wasn't thinking or only thinking of themselve. This is my opinion.

<small>[ February 26, 2003, 02:47 AM: Message edited by: MALC ]</small>

#819503 02/26/03 07:25 AM
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***In NCsituations you are trying to spare your own children any pain at all at the complete expense of the OC***

Why is it when an OW puts her child first to the detriment and expense of everyone else she is being noble and a good mother. But when the BS does the same thing she is a heartless bytch ?
When an OW agrees to an affair with a MM with children she is not thinking one bit about the emotional pain to the children she will be contributing to if the affair is discovered. She doesn't care about what it will do to MM's children. All she cares about is herself. Now, all of a sudden she has a child to worry about and she thinks everyone should be concerned with the well being of her child even though she didn't give a rat's a$$ about the COM before. Why do OW expect BS to show so much more concern for their children than they ever showed for BS's children ?
YES ! I will always put my childrens needs above OC and make no apology for it. The OC is not my problem nor my responsibility.
Just as every OW says MM should have known sex could lead to pregnancy, every OW should have known that pregnancy with a MM could lead to being a single parent.

jtigger

#819504 02/26/03 08:20 AM
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Honestly, I think as mothers, ALL of us will only think about our children...I suppose that if that didn't happen, many children wouldn't thrive in the world.

Men are different (not excusing them) but they are able to "compartementalize" their lives....women are too emotional and I suppose what I've learned in counseling, we tend to project our "emotions" onto the males and expect them to think like we do. Men don't. Not that they don't care about children, women are the primary nurturers....(and I will never excuse men for their behavior any more than I will excuse my or any other woman's behavior)

as they say, "the hand that rocks the cradle, rules the world."

This has proved to be an enlightening thread and honestly have given me many sides to consider and think about.

Thanks for more things to think about...I've honestly come away with new things to think about.

Hugs to ALL...
Twiisty

#819505 02/26/03 08:21 AM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MALC:
<strong>Well me if I was dealing with a married man and me personally not MM, would take responsibilty for using some kind of birth control and if not done, then it would be my soul intent to get pregnant bottom line. This is my opinion.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MALC - I have to disagree here. At least in MY case. I WAS on BC, it failed. I NEVER set out to get pregnant, and was PETRIFIED when I found out that I was. I've dealt with the ramifications of that pregnancy, and my son as a result. I TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR MY ACTIONS. And it's sad that some women that have gotten pregnant have done so WITH THE WISHES of MM, and it was PLANNED. I don't know what these men think, but 9 times out of 10 they run as fast as they can in the other direction.

#819506 02/26/03 08:31 AM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lostone29:
<strong>HeavenlyBody,

You said: "If you are fair, then all children are equal, because they all belong to the MM. Why is the child of the OW more important and deserving of more consideration?"

I do believe they are equal- which is my point. They BOTH deserve not only financial support from the MM but emotional support too. The OC deserves a father in it's life as much as the children of the marriage. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, now I'm going to actually disagree. Yes, I believe that the OC should be acknowledged. I think that it's great if all parties can work things out as adults and do what is fair to the kids. But unless they are - it's not fair to the kids of the marriage to find out. OY. How do I say this without pissing everyone off? lol
I wanted my son to know his father. I bent over backwards for the first year to make sure that he could. His father did not do the same, he saw him 10 minutes here, 10 minutes there. Unless he was prepared to be a REAL father to the kid, it's not right or fair to anyone.
Now do I think that his 3 kids with his wife have a right to know about him? Yes - WHEN THEY ARE OLD ENOUGH TO UNDERSTAND, and be talked to as adults about the situation. Do I think that as children they should be told? No. He's still living in the house. He's still with his wife. As far as those kids know - everything is hunky-dory. Why shatter their illusions about #1 - their family as they know it and #2 - their father, who obviously is less than the perfect man that I'm sure they imagine him to be.
In time, I'm sure that it will all come out - too many people in his family know about it. But now? His oldest is a freshman in college, and his youngest (at home) in first grade. The oldest I'm sure could deal with it now, the youngest? No way. She needs to be a kid as long as possible - as all kids do. Does my son have to suffer for that? Absolutely. He doesn't have a father. But that was a choice that I MADE when I decided to go ahead with the pregnancy. I KNEW that I would be a single parent. Do I still resent xMM though? Yes. But that's MY ISSUE to deal with.

#819507 02/26/03 09:07 AM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Originally posted by MALC:
Well me if I was dealing with a married man and me personally not MM, would take responsibilty for using some kind of birth control and if not done, then it would be my soul intent to get pregnant bottom line. This is my opinion. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That may be true for you, But you cant judge all women on facts when the facts are all so different, your dealing with a thousand different facts and timelines and years, months, one night stands and all kinds of things, from one night stand to a few months to 20 years, how can all the facts be the same?.. they cant be and therefore you shouldnt lump them all in the same catagory.
You cant judge all relationships on what happened to you. Because it may ot apply to every one. thats all.
some of these women are not dealing with small children at home, I for one had om disrupt my life so my children had to be told, so I damn well expect him to do a good job, after all he invaded our lives and and family, I cant take back what we had to tell our children in order to have him involved, so I expect him to do the very best job of being a bio father that he can.
Just like you have the choice of no contact, I didnt have the choice, state law allows him to contest paternity if he so wishes..
so where were my choices!?
Does a man who fathers a child have a responsiblity , of course he does, he also has a responsibility to parent that child, however since he is able to choose no contact, in my humble opinion , who would want that man around there child in the first place.

again an argument that has experience from all sides, although my husband and I have talked and he feels the same way I do, he couldnt have a child out there that he didnt see and care for.

#819508 02/26/03 09:34 AM
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Who would want that woman around their children?

addressing my situation only of course

#819509 02/26/03 09:59 AM
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Its a safe bet that any good mother will watch out for and protect her children at all costs. No, children of the affair partners are not entitled to their father 'within contexts' of anything. They have as much of his blood running through their veins as any of his other children. They are entitled on equal footing. I called them other children, because you know what, they are his other children. Of the marriage or not. To say that ow doesn't give a rat behind, bs doesn't care, etc is a moot point. We all do care about who and what is important to us.

#819510 02/26/03 10:34 AM
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I should clear something.. I didnt mean I wouldnt want om around his child, I dont realy mind that, I meant for all those women who are so upset and hurt om dosnt want there child and doesnt want to be a father to them, as a mother know your doing the best you can for him/her and if the father doesnt care, he isnt good enough to be around your child any way, thats all..

#819511 02/26/03 11:54 AM
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first let me say that I am new to all this and so I realize some of my opinions come across a little too idealistic and from inexperience. This debate has helped me work through and figure things out.

I suppose I was debating the issue as if things really could be fair for both children with the cooperation of the adults involved. But I guess that's a little naive. My frustration stems from the revelation that men are able to detach themselves emotionally and really don't think as we women do. First lesson in that came from the experience of the affair itself. It was a puzzle to me that the MM could actually do this- someone I thought was normal and intelligent and decent before. I wanted to understand this aspect of human nature. Maybe that is part of what kept me hooked.

I was further dismayed to learn that men could detach themselves emotionally towards a child they created, intentionally or not. That is what angered and shocked me. This attitude by them that because it happened in an affair situation it was an excuse to walk away from being a father. And then I was trying to understand how the BS, being women and mothers, could support such a thing. I still don't entirely see that justified. But that's just my pov.

Malc said- "Yes OC deserve to have a father in it's proper contexts, not at the price or expense loss, detriment, or embarrassment that results from some action or gain or SACRIFICE of destroying a family that was already in place.

OW when she made a choice to have this child in my opinion she didn't care about the devastation this would have caused the family of the people involved."

So, better to abort the child then to cause pain to those involved? What kind of logic is that for a christian? The family isn't being destroyed by the OC, it's the MM's unfaithfulness and the resulting affair and/or the inability of the BS to stay in the marriage after what happened that destroys the family. I don't think many OW WANTED to get pregnant, the pregnancy often causes her great pain and hardship too. She is simply trying to make the best out of an awful situation for the OC. Most don't want or demand the MM to leave his marriage, the OW only wants her child to have a father too. Most sane OW would be understanding and willing to work that out while the MM tries to stay in the marriage. So the OW is not trying to destroy any families. In my naive way, I'd like to believe that isn't absolutely necessary.

For the record, I come from a bit of a different aspect myself. The MM I was involved with doesn't have children in the marriage. I am personally struggling with the guilt of affecting his marriage itself and hurting the wife. That is why I read here- to get insight. But of course I end up wanting to spare my child pain, too. Maternal instincts kicking in I guess.

JoshMom- I agree with you, or I did. Not sure what I think now. I originally took the same stance you did. I felt that I went ahead with the pregnancy with the knowledge that I was in it alone, and planned to handle it that way. I guess I started having second thoughts about sparing MM at the expense of this child's well being. I started to feel it wasn't fair to this child to go without in order to spare others pain. Why sacrifice this child for a marriage? (To put a reverse spin on what someone else said). What is really more important- a child or a relationship? I am not sure I know the answer to that. Of course, being pregnant doesn't help one to think clearly or objectively about this!

#819512 02/27/03 12:29 AM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lostone29:
<strong> JoshMom- I agree with you, or I did. Not sure what I think now. I originally took the same stance you did. I felt that I went ahead with the pregnancy with the knowledge that I was in it alone, and planned to handle it that way. I guess I started having second thoughts about sparing MM at the expense of this child's well being. I started to feel it wasn't fair to this child to go without in order to spare others pain. Why sacrifice this child for a marriage? (To put a reverse spin on what someone else said). What is really more important- a child or a relationship? I am not sure I know the answer to that. Of course, being pregnant doesn't help one to think clearly or objectively about this!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Lostone - I have come full circle with all this, I guess. My son is 6 now. I will never understand all of the WHY's of everything, but can begin to understand some of it, partly from reading here, partly from basic live experience and knowing people that have been BW's. The child IS the most important thing. But realistically speaking, in order for xMM to stay in his marriage, he must have NC. That is HIS decision and I have to respect it. I don't have to LIKE it, but I do have to respect it. And I am OK with looking myself in the mirror every morning. Is he? I don't know. edited to fix my italics! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ February 26, 2003, 12:31 PM: Message edited by: JoshMom ]</small>

#819513 02/26/03 02:43 PM
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"And then I was trying to understand how the BS, being women and mothers, could support such a thing. I still don't entirely see that justified. But that's just my pov."

When oc was born, ow wasn't sure who the father was(it was between my h and her another guy) I suggested that my h and ow come to a mutal agreement about the welfare of the oc when paternity was determined..

I left the descision about the oc to them, after all I was a big girl, I can take care of my own wounds, oc is innocent and that was the bottom line..

from there I made the descision to accept the situation or leave. I didn't make him choose one family over the other..I don't know how to answer the question really..I just know what we did and what our choices were..I invited my h to be a part of the child's life. (being a mother myself) NC was a mutual decision on their part...however, we do provide support..

There is really no way to make another person understand unless they walk in my shoes and I walk in theirs

Being a woman and mother too..
Butterfly

#819514 02/26/03 03:10 PM
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WOW, it's been quite a while since I've posted, but I must admit, I'm compelled to add my two cents to what seems like the end of a very good thread.

We tried the 'every child is equal' approach. Most of you here know enough about our story but for newbies, I'll give the quick version....H filed for both cs and visitation. He didn't want to wait to be told by the courts or in our case, the child's mom the terms of visitation. He openly provided financial info and tried to make lil mama a part of our lives. This only ended in a false accusation of neglect by xow to her lawyer and a request for a psychological analysis of my H, me and the baby by xow!!
Since he took the proactive stance out the gate, there were major problems. I suppose because when xow told him about baby, he responded the way most mm respond....pls abort.
Well, since she knew he was less than excited about the baby, she carried that into the dynamics of what we thought would be an ongoing parental arrangement between three adults. It never worked out that way.

Here's why I think things bombed and why no contact may be the easiest (not best, but certainly facilitates the ability to go on with a peaceful life)...
Yes, the list queen is back:
1. In most arrangements, no one is willing to acknowledge the underlying hurt, resentment and mistrust of each other. I think the best thing in the world would have been for all of us to agree to counseling sessions to deal with the fallout of the affair. But everyone has their pride right? My H still has not, and probably will never apologize to her for her pain. She still has not, any may never apologize for hurting me. This sets most attempts at contact on a downward spiral on an already slippery path. Since no one is willing to apologize and deal with the mess, it sets communication up for failure because everyone has their 'you hurt me so i'm gonna get you sucka' hearing and understanding filter on. Sorry, but as much as we'd like to think otherwise, in most cases, that's how it turns out. We take our wounds into the situation and make things worse.
2. Even if the adults are willing to get all the junk out in the open and deal with things, it takes time to heal. Inevitably, there will be a scenario that will require trust on the part of the xow, or bs. Both are likely unwilling to take that leap of faith...the xow unwilling to believe that the bs and ws can love and accept the baby and the bs unwilling to believe that the xow has honoralbe intent on behalf of her child.
3. Respect for each other's requests and opinions are unlikely. Matters of discipline, praise, extra curricular activities, religion etc will more than likely cause parents (even happily married parents) to go at it with all their might. In these cases, unless everyone can agree that regardless of the action, that each adult TRULY has the child's best interest at heart, then there will be drama. I was told recently to not spank my H's daughter. While I respected her request, I felt a little bothered with the fact that she, her mom, her father and everyone else in her family routinely uses corpal punishment, but I couldn't????

I do believe the children are equal. But I also believe that there are sacrifices that we make. Some on behalf of our children and some at the risk of our children's well being. I feel like as a wife, I sacrificed personal peace for a while so that my son and future children can have a two parent home with an active and emotionally attched dad. I even sacrificed the same for lil mama so that she can have a relationship with her dad. I put my personal comfort aside for that, all to no avail. The xow on the other hand sacrificed her child's right to that relationship when she did the deal with a man that would not committ to her. The fact that he was married made matters worse, but the fact that he was emotionally unavailable and clearly not ready for a committed relationship makes it so. Does this make it right? Not at all.
Do I think a father's love and acceptance can be replaced? No. Time and life are the great equalizers though. Someone here said it best, let the future worry about itself...

#819515 02/26/03 03:11 PM
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WOW, it's been quite a while since I've posted, but I must admit, I'm compelled to add my two cents to what seems like the end of a very good thread.

We tried the 'every child is equal' approach. Most of you here know enough about our story but for newbies, I'll give the quick version....H filed for both cs and visitation. He didn't want to wait to be told by the courts or in our case, the child's mom the terms of visitation. He openly provided financial info and tried to make lil mama a part of our lives. This only ended in a false accusation of neglect by xow to her lawyer and a request for a psychological analysis of my H, me and the baby by xow!!
Since he took the proactive stance out the gate, there were major problems. I suppose because when xow told him about baby, he responded the way most mm respond....pls abort.
Well, since she knew he was less than excited about the baby, she carried that into the dynamics of what we thought would be an ongoing parental arrangement between three adults. It never worked out that way.

Here's why I think things bombed and why no contact may be the easiest (not best, but certainly facilitates the ability to go on with a peaceful life)...
Yes, the list queen is back:
1. In most arrangements, no one is willing to acknowledge the underlying hurt, resentment and mistrust of each other. I think the best thing in the world would have been for all of us to agree to counseling sessions to deal with the fallout of the affair. But everyone has their pride right? My H still has not, and probably will never apologize to her for her pain. She still has not, any may never apologize for hurting me. This sets most attempts at contact on a downward spiral on an already slippery path. Since no one is willing to apologize and deal with the mess, it sets communication up for failure because everyone has their 'you hurt me so i'm gonna get you sucka' hearing and understanding filter on. Sorry, but as much as we'd like to think otherwise, in most cases, that's how it turns out. We take our wounds into the situation and make things worse.
2. Even if the adults are willing to get all the junk out in the open and deal with things, it takes time to heal. Inevitably, there will be a scenario that will require trust on the part of the xow, or bs. Both are likely unwilling to take that leap of faith...the xow unwilling to believe that the bs and ws can love and accept the baby and the bs unwilling to believe that the xow has honoralbe intent on behalf of her child.
3. Respect for each other's requests and opinions are unlikely. Matters of discipline, praise, extra curricular activities, religion etc will more than likely cause parents (even happily married parents) to go at it with all their might. In these cases, unless everyone can agree that regardless of the action, that each adult TRULY has the child's best interest at heart, then there will be drama. I was told recently to not spank my H's daughter. While I respected her request, I felt a little bothered with the fact that she, her mom, her father and everyone else in her family routinely uses corpal punishment, but I couldn't????

I do believe the children are equal. But I also believe that there are sacrifices that we make. Some on behalf of our children and some at the risk of our children's well being. I feel like as a wife, I sacrificed personal peace for a while so that my son and future children can have a two parent home with an active and emotionally attched dad. I even sacrificed the same for lil mama so that she can have a relationship with her dad. I put my personal comfort aside for that, all to no avail. The xow on the other hand sacrificed her child's right to that relationship when she did the deal with a man that would not committ to her. The fact that he was married made matters worse, but the fact that he was emotionally unavailable and clearly not ready for a committed relationship makes it so. Does this make it right? Not at all.
Do I think a father's love and acceptance can be replaced? No. Time and life are the great equalizers though. Someone here said it best, let the future worry about itself...

#819516 02/26/03 07:28 PM
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Oh, OK...so in your opinion, if my guy had an OC, and I asked him to not have contact...that would make me horrible, unwomanlike, and un-Christian? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Oh I see. Thanks for defining my religion for me. Hmm, and I would be the one adult who actually didn't sin...hmmm go figure! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Just as you can't make OW have an abortion or adopt the OC out...you can't make MM be a hands-on father if he doesn't want to be. Sure he is responsible financially. But if he and his wife choose to rebuild their marriage, and actually heed the words "forsake all others," his emotional responsibility is with the intact family within the marriage. Donating sperm makes one a parent, but it doesn't make a family.

#819517 02/26/03 07:37 PM
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Whatever you say, Enuf. After all, it seems you have descended upon MARRIAGE BUILDERS to grace us with your own harsh brand of wisdom. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Sounds like you have issues. I just question if you are here to build your marriage, or to try and hurt those who are.

#819518 02/26/03 07:56 PM
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enufizenuf,
Actually it is OW like you that are in denial.
Let me ask you this, if his wife didn't have enough control over him to keep him from having an affair in the first place, what in the world makes you think she has enough power over him to stop him from seeing this child he is supposedly dying to be with.
In my case I left the decision completely up to H. I even offered to try for custody.
I think OW give the wife credit for having way more power than we actually do. If a man wanted to be part of a childs life he would be. Period.
Now please, lets don't get a board war started. This thread has remained very controlled with good information being given by both sides. Lets not start the name calling and finger pointing that we have seen so much of in the past.

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enufizenuf,,,,,, what i don't understand about your position on this is that if a mans or womans heart is not into being a parent to any child why would you want them around that child. seems they would do much more damage to the child then good.
case in point: one of my sons wilder friends got his gf pregnant. she deliverd the child and then took off. HE took on the responsibility of raising his son and is doing a wonderful job of it. does he want the mom to be involved? no. it has changed who he is. God works in mysterious ways.

in the case of some here who have tried to have contact and the op (him/her) makes life miserable for all. then no doubt someone has to step up and end the bleeding. neither the isrealites or the palestinians will step up so the fighting will go on for another 2000 years. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

what does the Crucifiction of Christ stand for? SACRIFICE. "for God gave His only Son". everyone here is sacrificing something to continue on in their marriage. some financially sacrificing items for their family of marriage to meet their responsibility of cs. some by being single parents. some by raising a ws's oc for the benefit of their family of mariage with the everyday reminder of their ws tryst.

if you did not like me personally, would it not offend you if i tried to force my friendship on you? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

it often amazes me how someone can stand up on their pedistal and accuse others of being hypocritical Christians because their views differ. while their narrow minded views of others are in fact just a form of "passing judgement" and therefore unChristian.

for a woman to keep a child because she is personaly unable to deal with any other "choice" emotionally seems very hypocritical to put another womans children through the pain in which these things bring. where is the empathy in that? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

also i have known many very well adapted and great kids who have been raised in a single parent home. although it is generaly hard on the parent these children never suffered from lack of feeling loved. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

#819520 02/26/03 08:18 PM
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Everyone, I so am stirred up by this post.

I agree with Joshmom's last post. All are affected by the A and OC. I agree that the children of the marriage should not sacrifice their world and life for the mistakes of the father-the MM-and the OW.

IN my case, my H was married, with kids, and told OW he was intending to stay in the marriage. Had no intention of leaving. She knew he was committed to his marriage and being a father to these kids. He never told her he wanted to be with her, or marry her, or have a child with her.

When she found herself pregnant, she was delighted.She had no kids, and even my H said she wanted a child at all costs.Costs not just to her, but to child, my H, me, and our family. AT that juncture, she didn't much think what being a single mother would be like for herself.She was in the deluded view of motherhood being wonderful. This from a woman who could not support herself independently from her job, because she doesn't make enough money to rent her own apt. or home, etc. My H tried to tell her how difficult it would be to raise a child alone, the energy necessary, the emotional and econical demands, etc. SHe wouldn't listen.AT all costs, she wanted that child.

So she has said child.ANd 6 months after birth, she complains she cannot economically support the child and make a go of it. She needs H's economic support and takes him to court for CS. She takes home over 1400 dollars a month to support this child.NOw who needs that to raise a child? She is not economically supporting that child, in my opinion.She is using our CS to do that solely.

Now, when I found out, her first communication to me concerned how her child had a right to know my children. Excuse me? When the A was going on, she cared not about my kids or my family's needs.And now since she screwed my H, and accidentally got pregnant ( well, that is the story, anyway), she thinks her child's alleged needs to know siblings supersedes my children's need and right to have a quasi normal childhood despite this horrible act to our family?

I think not.

My inlaws are horrified at what their son has done.THey do not think of this child as equal to our kids. They do not feel this child deserves their attention or a relationship with the child. THey support me, because I had children while married with H, not done this way.

I totally agree that children all deserve as peaceful a life as they can, as children. My children deserve as much of that as the OC. ANd one's needs should not supersede the others.

I resent every day that my life has changed drastically because of H's stupid actions and OW's stupid desires. I will always resent that.

I just don't see how single women who want children should be rewarded with CS for child they conceived with a man who is unavailable to them.

I don't see how choosing single parenthood, because wanting the child is what the woman wants, is also good for the child.

I have a suggestion--perhaps any woman who gets pregnant by a MM or single guy must release the child for adoption to a married couple-so child can be raised in two parent family.

Do you think this would stop the ease at which affairs and OC are brought about?

#819521 02/26/03 08:22 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17
L
Junior Member
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Junior Member
L
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17
Matthew 6:14,15- Your list was very insightful, thank you. It made a lot of sense as to why these situations are so difficult and don't work out in most cases.

So that leaves the question- is nc better for the child or not? Is it better to have peace and no father or no peace but a father? Do you think this child was better off knowing it's father despite the circumstances or would have been better off with nc? Please give me you honest opinion from your experience.

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