Welcome to the
Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum

This is a community where people come in search of marriage related support, answers, or encouragement. Also, information about the Marriage Builders principles can be found in the books available for sale in the Marriage Builders® Bookstore.
If you would like to join our discussion forum, please read the Announcement Forum for instructions, rules, & guidelines.
The members of this community are peers and not professionals. Professional coaching is available by clicking on the link titled Coaching Center at the top of this page.
We trust that you will find the Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum to be a helpful resource for you. We look forward to your participation.
Once you have reviewed all the FAQ, tech support and announcement information, if you still have problems that are not addressed, please e-mail the administrators at mbrestored@gmail.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 4 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6
#819522 02/26/03 09:16 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17
L
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
L
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17
Pops said- "for a woman to keep a child because she is personaly unable to deal with any other "choice" emotionally seems very hypocritical to put another womans children through the pain in which these things bring. where is the empathy in that?"

It is not just that she is sparing herself the pain of the other choices at the expense of pain to others. There is also the OC to think about. It is an innocent unborn life that an OW struggles over whether it is morally right or wrong to destroy just because it came into being at an inconvenient time. The empathy in that is for the life of the unborn child, which I think is as significant as the lives of the children of the marriage. I thought that opinion would at least be shared by the christians on this board.

If you are referring to the choice of adoption only, then I know there are a lot of people that feel that is a great choice for a child. I tend to disagree. My feeling is that while the child will hopefully grow up in a loving, two parent home, there is no guarantee that that will end up the case. At least in parenting herself, the mother can be safe in the knowledge that her child will be cared for and loved in the way she would want by at least one of the child's natural parents. I feel being adopted provides it own set of problems and pain for the child that is often overlooked or not acknowledged. I don't think financial security and two parents are necessarily a trade off for being raised and loved by at least one of your real parents. It is not the single parenthood that is the tragedy to the child ( maybe to the mother though, as it is a struggle), but the emotional rejection or total absence of one of the parents. If that child knows both parents love him/her and has consistency with that in their life, that is as important and valuable as having two parents, full time, in a stable relationship. That is just my opinion, and I guess why I place so much importance on the father being in the child's life.

Of course, it has to be in the father's heart to want that himself. I agree you can't force it. What I was arguing against was the POV expressed by some BS that the reason for nc should be to save the marriage. That implies sacrificing the well being of the OC for the interests of the MM and BS, who are adults. If the MM truly rejects contact even though he has that option with the blessing of the BS, then that is on the MM. If the couple try contact and the OW truly makes it harmful and toxic to everyone involved, including the child, than nc can't be helped.

I just disagree with the premise that nc is the only way to save the marriage and the right thing to do when you pit that against the pain it inflicts on the innocent OC. And I think that although the children of the marriage may not have the perfect unaffected life they had before, they don't lose a relationship with their father, regardless if the marriage stays intact or not. And I think that is the key thing for both children. To have the love of both parents, even if they are not together. They both suffer, but neither has to suffer the greater pain of not having a father. The children of the marriage may not deserve to have their perfect world disrupted, but the OC equally doesn't deserve to suffer the worse fate of being without their father in their life at all. I guess to me that is not being uncompassionate to the children of the marriage, but choosing the lesser of two evils for both sides ( for the children affected). Of course, now I wonder if that is even a reasonable possibility with all the hurt and anger that gets dragged into the equation. It can't be helped and is understandable, but what then? Can it never work?

<small>[ February 26, 2003, 09:18 PM: Message edited by: Lostone29 ]</small>

#819523 02/26/03 09:20 PM
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 922
H
Member
Offline
Member
H
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 922
LostOne, Joshmom and others,

I would like to share my own experience with my H and his OC.

My H feels tremendous guilt about the A. He used the OW, told her absolute lies, and made promises that he never intended to keep. She idolized my H and truly thought that she had a chance to build a life with him. My H never took her seriously.

The OC was planned by the OW in order to force my H to make a decision to leave me. He told me that all the time he was creating an alternate life with the OW it did not seem real. As Twiisty said, he had compartmentalized his life and the OW was completely separate from his real life. But when she informed him of the pregnancy, he told me that it was like suddenly the fantasy became real life.

The knowledge that he had helped to create a child evoked a number of emotions. He knew that he did not really love the OC and he knew he had to admit that because she was making plans for their new life together. Facing the music, telling her the truth about himself and his life, and seeing the devastation that it caused for that woman created such guilt in him that he has not ever recovered.

He tried contact for a while, but when the OC became old enough to ask questions about why she was different and why she did not have family like other kids, the guilt became intense and he could not take it anymore for two reasons. First, he felt that having a part-time father was hurting the child more than helping her. A married man cannot give the same emotional support to a child living outside his home as he can to those living with him -- that is simple geography. The children living with the MM form a more intimate bond that comes from sharing every day of their life with each other.

Second, he felt that as long as he was coming in and out of the OW's life, she was content to pretend that they had a "family" and would not move forward to find an available man to make her happy. Most of all he wanted the OW to be happy because he knows how he has ruined her life.

The point I am trying to make (I talk waaaay too much sometimes, sorry...) is that sometimes men walk out because of the complex emotions they feel -- the guilt of having created a child that they can never properly nurture, and the guilt of having hurt a good and decent woman whose only crime was falling in love with a liar.

I am sure that in some cases, the spouse tries to convince the H to adopt no contact. But, sometimes, the spouse does not even enter the equation. Often the MM has created his own demons that end up overtaking him. Or sometimes it is the vindictive behaviour of the OW that makes it impossible to continue the relationship in any form.

There are many variables. But, no contact does not always occur because the MM is an irresponsible sh*t who can easily turn his back on a child he created. Sometimes he may feel that all he can offer both the OW and the OC is more hurt and pain.

This is such a sad situation for everyone concerned. Thanks for the great insights on this thread. These are issues that I have been thinking about for a very long time. We are all victims in one way or another.

love and prayers to all,
heavenly

#819524 02/26/03 09:28 PM
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 922
H
Member
Offline
Member
H
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 922
Hey Lostone,

We posted at the same time.

I just wanted to emphasize that there are both pros and cons to "no father" vs. "part-time father".

When the child is young, there is no problem having a part-time father who comes and goes for visits. But, when the child gets older, he or she will begin to ask difficult questions in each situation.

The child with no father will ask why they don't have one who lives with them. The child with a part-time father will also want to know why daddy doesn't live with them, but will also want to know why daddy lives with his OTHER children. Does daddy love them more because he is with them all the time?

My H's OC asked questions like this. She actually asked my H what was wrong with her that she did not have the same type of family as everyone else. That nearly broke my heart that a child was feeling such inferiority.

Children are not stupid. They sense when things are not quite correct. They are vulnerable to being "different". Meanwhile, growing up without one of your parents is a sad, but quite common, event. Parents are lost through death and the remaining parent in most cases successfully raises the child. This makes the child sad, but it does not make the child try to compare himself or herself against other children with the same father.

Just something to think about.

love,
heavenly

#819525 02/26/03 09:30 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 248
J
Member
Offline
Member
J
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 248
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Sorry Joshmom....

I've had ENUF of enuf..I'm leaving your post as written but enuf has to go.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Justuss

[/qb]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yes, he ignores his child. But that is HIS CHOICE. If he WANTED to be in my son's life, he would find a way, come hell or high water. And do I want a serial cheater, louse, liar and basic JERK to be the main male influence in my child's life? Hell NO. He deserves better than that. And for the record, xMM already pays CS to TWO WOMEN - he's got TWO OC's. We're actually having some pretty decent, eye-opening discussion here, please don't come and ruin it.

<small>[ February 26, 2003, 09:57 PM: Message edited by: Justuss ]</small>

#819526 02/26/03 09:34 PM
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,884
T
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,884
Hear hear Joshmom! That's all I have to add.

Tigger <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

#819527 02/26/03 09:52 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,816
J
Administrator
Member
Offline
Administrator
Member
J
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,816
To Our Wonderful P/C posters,

After a conference between the moderators of this forum, we decided to leave this thread open, and delete only the non-constructive intentionally mean posts.

Let's not allow one negative influence ruin a good thread.

(((((((((to all on P/C)))))))))

#819528 02/26/03 10:43 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17
L
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
L
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17
Heavenlybody26- So do you think that an OC feeling this inferiority and pain is unavoidable with contact or without? In other words, that due to the very fact that they are without a full time dad, either way, it has the same affect? I need to think about that some more. Thanks for answering.

My other two children's father and I are divorced and my five year old remembers the abuse( sad and the reason I left). She seems to understand that it's not about her (why her dad doesn't live with us). He went on to move another woman in and they had a baby in august, along with her three children. My D hasn't asked why he chose to have a family with them instead of us, she hasn't expressed it in terms of him choosing to live with those kids instead of her and her brother. I wonder now if she will. Maybe every child internalizes it differently. I guess that has colored my opinion about this. As much of a jerk as their dad is, they are still happier that he is in their lives. Even though she saw him acting mean at times, he gives love and affection to them, and that is what makes the difference. She even prayed to God the other night to help her dad to change and act better! I personally wish they had a different biodad, but I think it matters to them that he is involved in their lives and they are secure in the fact that they are loved by both of us, even if it is dysfunctional! She understands her dad isn't perfect and he will never be the perfect hero in her eyes as he should have been, but she loves him just the same. I kept thinking - better to deal with a mom and dad who don't live together then to have no dad at all, for a child. But that is what I am now uncertian about.

#819529 02/26/03 11:49 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 361
T
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 361
<<And I think that although the children of the marriage may not have the perfect unaffected life they had before, they don't lose a relationship with their father, regardless if the marriage stays intact or not. >>

Lostone, I think that in my situation I would have to respectfully disagree with your above comment. I almost believe that it is more difficult for adult children of the marriage to recover from a parent's betrayal.

My H's relationship with our daughter has been severely damaged. She has lost all respect for him. She now feels that her past 8 years have been a lie. She feels she has been replaced by his 2OC. He does not want to do the work it takes to repair his relationship with her, which is very sad. Our son (20) made the comment that "dad must think we don't need him anymore since we are grownup". He is no longer available to our children as he was before, as he is now at OW's house most evenings till morning, and his cell phone is turned off at 6pm usually. OW has told us not to call her house unless in emergency. Hard to maintain a relationship that way. Also hard for me not to be bitter. But that is where I am at in my road to recovery. Bitter, angry, and very depressed.

Now that our marriage is ending over his choice to be with OW and OC, not sure if their relationship will ever be comfortable again, but time will tell.

Tina

#819530 02/27/03 12:01 AM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,094
P
Member
Offline
Member
P
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,094
lost,,,,, please don't insinuate about a persons Christianity because they feel differently about this highly contraversial topic. that doesn't seem fair in light of the fact that we are all here on this board because someone close to us acted in an unGodly fashion.

you are right that your reference to abortion is a struggle for most all women. and even though i asked fh to abort or adobt her oc does not mean i don't respect her choice to carry to term and keep her child. it did however place the ball back in my lap with some heavy choices.

as you know there is no quarantee that even with adobted families. they also end in broken marriages.

if a w made the statement that it is either nc or the highway then i quess that would force the husband to make some serious choices. if he choose nc for that reason only then i would tend to think his marriage would be doomed sooner or later.

the problem that i see in this arguement is that it comes down to 2 very sacred things created by God. children and marriage. someone earlier quoted the scripture about Abraham and his oc. i remember talking to fh about that exact scripture when we were early into this. God told Abraham to cast his oc and his mother into the desert and He would care for them. which He did.

i also think that children are very resilient. they adjust better to most situations then do we adults. they bring ti life what they are taught. if you teach them love,they will spread love. if a bitter ow teaches them negative thoughts because the childs dad is not around then the childs thoughts will be negative. but if that parent explains to the child that dad just couldn't deal with all the pain and damage that had been done then the child will learn empathy and compassion. in these select instances of nc it boils down to the mothers projection of the consequences for 2 knucklehead adults in how that child will view themselves either as a lucky child or an unlucky one.

#819531 02/27/03 12:19 AM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,094
P
Member
Offline
Member
P
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,094
lost,,,, let me give you a brief back ground into my situation since d-day. fh and om broke off relations within 30 days. she popped out of the fog rather quickly. maybe another 30 days. since then om has had hardly any contact with her. and maybe 3 or four times since birth. he has seen his child on 2 occasions and hasn't touched her once. now that the d.a. has set a date (late march) for the hearing for cs the last time he spoke to fh was to accuse her of only wanting money. he is also saying that if he has to pay cs then he wants visitaion. he can have it if that is truly his wish. but i kind of doubt he will make it a life time endeavor. if it was so important to him he would have made more of an effort to see his child in light of the fact that his w said that if he has to pay they should persue custody. fat chance that they will take an infant away from her mother when she has already parented 7 other children. he offered financial support when the pregnancy was first discovered and in one of his meetings with fh since birth. but to this day he hasn't paid out one nickel for her and she is over a year old. also there is no doubt in anyones mind that the child is his.

#819532 02/27/03 07:37 AM
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 166
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 166
Hi Lost,

Sorry for replying so late in the thread....
Your question...do I think it's better contact w/ no peace or no contact w/ peace...well, I'll speak from experience.

My mom and dad merely lived in the same house for most of my childhood. They didn't get along very much but still somehow managed to have three kids. From the simplest, to the most complex of topics, they fought bitterly. The arguments quite often lead to abuse at my father's hands. In spite of all that, it was still a happy childhood...just some sadness here and there.
My father was in my life...and for a long time, I couldn't stand him. He was so different from my mom and would often put her down in front of us. He gave me many, many reasons to dislike him and wish him from my life on more than one occasion. So in some instances, there was no peace and I wish I could have had the life of my cousin who's father died much earlier in her life.
HOWEVER,
I recall the times when my dad was tender with me, or gave me money to buy something I liked, or took us to the movies, or made something good to eat, or talked to me about world affairs, or defended me from a male bully at school, or took up for me with my mom when I didn't want to go to church (shouldn't have done that though). I think those are the moments that make me say that even though my father was not the best husband to my mom and often times not the best dad in the world to me, I couldn't imagine being the strong, independent thinker I am today without him having been in my life and loving me the only way he knew how.
So to answer your question, I think it depends on the child's ability to develop and think independently for him/herself. If they're strong personality and can appreciate differences in people I think it's ok for the child and dad, (AND DAD'S FAMILY) to have regularly scheduled, unsupervised visitation. If on the other hand the child seems clingy and very dependent on their mom to breath and exist, then maybe it won't work out. The child will grow to hate one parent and worship the other.
I love my daddy. He stayed with us when he could and when my parents eventually divorced he still visited with my sisters regularly. I on the other hand at the point was in my teenage years and quite frankly felt that one parent was enough <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />
Right now, I wish we all could have worked out our adult differences so that lil mama could have the best of both worlds. But the way things stand right now, it doesn't look good for the reasons I stated in a previous post. I really feel like she could have gained another perspective on family life (not better, just different) had she been able to develop a bond with us w/out major drama.

#819533 02/27/03 08:54 AM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 903
T
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 903
I've been mulling over the question of the "part-time dad versus no dad" question and I offer my experience in it, which in a way, helps me deal with the NC issue on our end....

#1.....My own parents marriage and divorce....

I was never exceptionally close to my mother, only my father. He left my mother for another woman who met his "emotional needs". I answered the door when the OW knocked. My mother was livid. I had no clue at that time who OW was.
The relationship my dad had with his OW ended as quickly as it started, but my parents marriage was ruined. My mother was bitter about it. I got my first glimpse at infidelity when I was 8. I knew it was wrong. I lost alot of respect for my father. My father eventually met and married a woman with two sons and totally "blocked" me and my sister out of his life. It had been a recurring pattern over the years...

He made his family with his wife and step-son's more of a priority than my sister and me. He did little league, took them to Vermont for their timeshare vacation, built a pool at their house while my mother raised and my sister along until my step-father came along. My mother's bitter rantings did affect my outlook on my father. I chose no contact with my father for almost three years as a teen because of my disgust over how my sister and I were treated. I missed my dad, but I felt it was better not knowing him, then to hear my mom ***** about him all the time and to be ignored by my own father.

My Dad and his wife divorced, then he became "sorrowful" and started doing things for my sister and me. He became a part of our lives again and got to know his grandchildren. I always left the door open for him. As soon as he recovered from his divorce, he started dating and met this wonderful "married woman". Needless to say, I told my dad, if he really loved her, wait for her to divorce. The woman was fence-sitting and my dad had to end the relationship with her. Now he is lonely and sad and has no one. He's in another LTR with a single person, thus we are put on the "back burner" again.

My point in #1...I would rather be ignored than put in an on-again/0ff-again situation with my own flesh and blood father! I have no bitterness because as an adult, I understand now. I feel sorry for him, because he seems like such a desparate old man who is looking for something he really doesn't know what it is.

#2.......My marriage to Wild Bill.....
I married young to get away from an abusive situation (verbal and hitting) from my step-father. Wild Bill was in the army and away from his family and we just thought marriage was the "thing" to do as our friends were all getting married left and right. We were 19. Stupid and in love with the idea of being in love. He's bi-polar and delightful when he's manic, but man, I sure found out in a hurry what the depressive/rage part was like!

I always wanted children. He told me to wait. I was told that I was infertile (yeah, me, can you believe it? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> By the army) I got pregnant four years into a bad marriage with many "hardship tours" in between. To make a long story short (and not to get too personal) we had two daughters back to back. Wild Bill, in the recovery room of the hospital I was in, looked over curly-top's bassinette and said and I quote, "Oh great...there goes what's left of my freedom." The head nurse in charge was ready to grab a hypodermic needle and charge him! She actually had to be held back! (Army Hospital too!)

I was promptly abandoned when diobon was 18 months and curly-top was 3 months old. I raised them by myself or with Mr."T"'s help (when we married) for almost 7 years. We got by on Mr."T"'s paycheck and took the measly $200 a month for BOTH kids, even with dinobon's bi-polar meds costing us $230 a month and eked out a comfortable living, with me being a sahm. I never bad mouthed Wild Bill. I answered questions to my girls honestly when they asked about him.

I showed them the baby photos that I did have of wild bill with them and they were ok. Mr."T" was their DAddy and all's right with the world.

Wild Bill all of a sudden decides on contact after 7 years of virtually ignoring them. The girls were excited at the prospect of that. After the first initial visit, there was extreme emotions on the girl's part, especially curly-top who felt guilty, like she was being disloyal to her Daddy, (Mr."T"). It was rough emotionally for the girls to finally see wild bill.

After that first initial visit, he doesn't call or write much and then all of a sudden, takes them for five weeks in the summer. We allowed it to see if it would make or break their relationship and to see if Wild Bill could handle the situation. It went splendid. Of course, when the girls return, we have to deal with the crying and the "I miss daddy wild bill etc.".

I have more emotional problems with the girls now, then I did when they didn't know "wild bill".
I know that it takes time and we need to iron the bugs out, but knowing the nature of wild bill, he may cut himself off again for a few more years. What do I tell the girls about that then?

I am taking this on a step by step basis...my point for sharing #2?....is this:

It would have been better for wild bill to let my husband, Mr."T" adopt the girls (when we had that small window of chance back then) I often ask him, why now? Why not be involved from the beginning? Even if he was getting his life together, what happened to calls, photos and letters? He (wild bill) did none of that.
I'm watching this carefully, but I see my girls getting some problems now, because he "is" in their lives now.

We have counseling about this to help them deal with their feelings and it has been brought to our attention that due to the time span, it would have been better for him to have stayed out of their lives rather than disrupt almost 8 years of 'single' parenting that Mr."T" and I have done.
But I wouldn't begrudge Wild Bill acess to "His" children. (But where was he when Mr."T" was working double shifts to afford dinobon's hospital bills?)

In my case, as far as my children were concerned, No contact would have been best. But I'm here to make their contact experience with Wild Bill as positive as I can be. I again, like with my father, left the door open for him. I never closed it. I could have. I could have gotten him for abandonment.

Now, with these experiences behind us and Mr."T" knowing what a jerk Wild Bill is for not caring for his children, didn't want that for his (Mr."T"'s) OC. He wanted to adopt the child out. We understood that may not have been an option for OC's mother, we know because we have children together and know how that is. (we aren't heartless). Mr."T" didn't want OC to experiece the pain of Ex-OW and Mr. "T" fighting all the time. (In counseling, I got the first-hand truth of the hell they put each other through fighting etc. she demanded visitation and that he leave me and our children for her.)

Mr."T" had to tell the truth in counseling and with his place of employment, there was no rooms for lies on his part because it can cause problems with employment (for various reasons that I won't divulge here). Let's just say, from what I knew about ex-ow before we were married (Mr.T was always honest about his relationships as I was with him before we were married) and I knew all about her. I knew about her stalking him. I reamed Mr."T"'s butt in counseling about why he would let this "fatal attraction" like woman back in his life for a cheap thrill to jeapordize our marriage and COM and the counselor thought that was a good question also! We are still working on the WHY in counseling...his answer, "I don't know. I was stupid. I wasn't thinking. I wanted sex."

So, without going off on another "tangant" (Tigger4jkt <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ) I'll get to my point.....
(this really ties in, I promise)

Due to what we BOTH knew about ex-ow before our marriage, during the marriage when the three incidences of sex occurred (it's confirmed!) and the 18 months before I found out about OC etc. Mr."T" had to make and think seriously about his choices and he based his decision on No Contact due to:
Ex-ow behavior and antics towards him and the comments she made about our family and her willingness for him to leave me and our children for her and OC.

Her harrassment of him at work, calling and paging him constantly.

Her attitude of when she called and told me, after he told her he would prefer to tell me and he was waiting until our son was a little bit older and that I wasn't post-partum before telling me.

Her comment to me, "I'm madly in love with your husband and you and your children mean shyte to me"

Her constant phone calls to the house after D-day and parading around like she had a right to, now that "the wife knew". Upsetting my older children, wondering why mom is crying and this lady is bugging us on the phone, etc.

She harrasssed him at his place of employment after D-day.

He made his decision because he realized that she was only a piece of butt to him and that he couldn't possibly co-parent a child with a stranger he barely knew. (Yes, he knew her physical body) but not "her". She was in love with him, but he wasn't with her. (I have issues of him using her for a piece of butt, that was wrong and I feel sorry for ex-ow on that account, no one should have to accept crumbs from a man, when she has so much more to offer to someone who would appreciate it!)

He didn't want ex-ow and me to be at war all the time. He knew I could handle it, but he was more worried about her causing problems, rather than me.

His work hours doesn't permit him to see his own kids that much and now with the CS obligation we have to pay, he works even more. "I" don't even see him except four days a week. The other three he sleeps over at his grandmothers because he has to work to support us all (he still wants me home with the kids).
He knew that I would spend 99.5% of the time with OC and that ex-ow wouldn't go for that. He even told her that and she didn't want me around the OC. She was okay with our COM's but that I couldn't be around the OC...(she was afraid I'd beat her or something.)

Sooooooo, to make a long story short (sorry ladies and gents) the decision for no contact was made. We barely could afford the court costs for DNA testing and retaining our atty. and getting one for me to go after Wild Bill, let along every time she perceives "abuse" or whatever. So Mr."T" decided that No Contact from the beginning would be best.

The child does not know him. She was afraid of him when OW shoved her into his arms, when he met her at the pre-arranged public place to exchange CS money and diapers (before I found out) the OC cried and was terrified, reaching for her mother, while her mother snapped photos away of her crying OC and an uncomfortable bio-dad/sperm donor trying to leave and get back to work.

It's a horrible situation no matter what. How sad, how tragic. I love kids, otherwise I wouldn't have 5 of my own.

But we had to do, what we had to do to preserve peace. Nothing makes any of this right. But I have to say, Ex-ow moved on, got married and has a house now. I'm happy for her and wish her years of health, financial success and a great marriage. I can say that honestly.

I do struggle with some of the things she said and did to me and my family. But it's been two years now and she has honored our NO Contact letter and things have settled.

We pay, and we rebuild our marriage.
OC has a step-father that is daddy to her, much like Mr."T" is daddy to my two older girls when wild bill is around.

I guess because of what I've been through and what Mr."T" experienced with me and my girls and wild bill, he could make some hard-hitting serious choices, knowing that everyone will turn out okay, somehow.

Heck, Mr."T" and I aren't even assured that despite the best we raise our children, that they might not turn out the way we expect them to!

I've come from this thread with a better understanding of ow/ex-ow's questions and pov's (even if we don't always agree) I hope this long post might shed some light on things also.

In an ideal world, I would have loved to try to get along with ex-ow for the sake of OC, but she came off attacking me and announced to some mutual friends of ours that "she will punish Mr."T" for marrying Twiisty instead of her"...that was of course, said four years ago. I'm sure she's changed her tune, but believe me, we are punished and things like that does affect the contact/no contact decisions.

Hugs, peace, and prayers for healing for all of us,
Twiisty

#819534 02/27/03 09:11 AM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 903
T
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 903
Oh and one more thing...

As a hearing impaired/deaf adult, I get comments spoken to me like, "I'm sorry you can't hear...it must be terrible that you can't hear_______________"(fill in the blank).

I thought about that for a long time and then I replied, "How can you miss something you never had or experience?"

Although deafness and not having a father are two different things, I can speak from knowing that I rely and depend on my hearing aid. When it broke, it reminded me of all that I was missing in my life. I couldn't hear the most basic, simplest things (and the most important ones like my children in their rooms) and thought to myself, man...I wish I either was hearing or totally deaf, it stinks being in the middle.

I would rather not know what it was like to have my father in my life for 8 years then to be ignored. I think I would have preferred my "what-coulda been expectations" over the reality of what I had.

But I refuse to let my father dictate how I'm going to live the rest of my life. My first 30 years of life have been marked with pain. I can change my next 30 years to be more positive, despite the hardships I have, because I can control and adjust my attitude. It's the only thing, besides my faith in God, that can get me going.

And heck, we aren't even guaranteed tomorrow...
I want to make the most of today, for myself, my husband and my children.

So many things to think about.....

Twiisty
This thread is good exercise for me to think! It sure beats "Blues Clues".... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

#819535 02/27/03 08:07 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17
L
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
L
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17
Hey Twiisty- I actually agree with you on something!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I too think if you never experienced something it's better than if you do and it gets taken away. My ex, who fought for custody and visitation, has recently started to skip visits or bring them back early. It's only minor at this point, but I already see how it's affecting my children. When they are with him, he doesn't spend any real time with them, as he has the new woman there, the new baby, and her three daughters. My kids end up playing with/ being babysat by the teenagers. My three year old son doesn't want to go when his dad comes to pick him up, and then cries for his dad to stay when he drops him back off because he misses him and didn't really get to be with him. Very tough on my kids and it breaks my heart.

Are they better off with or without their father in their life? Despite the pain and trouble it causes them I think they still get something positive out of knowing their dad loves them and at least sees them on a regular basis, even if he could be a better dad.

I think.... As long as he doesn't get to the point of nc at times.

I worry that this OC will have a harder time dealing with the issue of not having a dad in their life because his/her siblings do go to visit their dad. I'm sure that will make things a lot harder. If all the kids had no father in their life than the better off not knowing what it's like thing would apply better.

Thank you all for posting your stories, it has given me a lot of insight, although I am dismayed that there may be no real good answer as to what's best.

#819536 03/01/03 09:11 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 412
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 412
Hi Pops and everyone

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">the problem that I see in this arguement is that it comes down to 2 very sacred things created by God. children and marriage. someone earlier quoted the scripture about Abraham and his oc. i remember talking to fh about that exact scripture when we were early into this. God told Abraham to cast his oc and his mother into the desert and He would care for them. which He did. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

I mention this scripter earlier, Gemini gave me the scripture you are the only one who even acknowledge this scripture so far. It makes me wonder do people acknowledge God or is it there denial that keeps them holding on to something that they no in fact this is not of God.

I even asked My Mom who is a minister about this scrpture she also believe, God knew how painful this OC would be for Abraham family this is why God sent Hagar away.Same as OW& OC in these cases need to be sent away especially if OW knew MM was married and she willfully choose to have this OC not considering his family they should be sent away. Pay reasonable CS but NC No harm done Just my honest opinion along with scripture.

You know people have a problem with this scripture
because it deals with what's happening in our lives today. People seem to want to rewrite the script to satisfy only there needs. When in fact the Creator knew how painful a situation like this would be. Something of this magnitude would be a constant reminder of the betrayal. How can you heal if you are constantly reminded of this situation.

To jtigger
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just as every OW says MM should have known sex could lead to pregnancy, every OW should have known that pregnancy with a MM could lead to being a single parent.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

I agree with you once again 100% on this and other matter of concern. It seems different standards are applied to men oppose to women and it's wrong. Men should have the same options as women. I really like this statement you made a while back which I hold very true and dear to my heart.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If a woman engages in casual sex, gets pregnant and then decides to put the baby up for adoption we would all be falling all over ourselves talking about what an unselfish gesture it is.
Why is it we hold men to such a higher standard ?
Why is sex consent to parenthood for men but not for women ?
Why do we think it honorable when a women admits she is in no position to be a parent or simply does not wish to be a parent at that time, but we think a man is a SOB if he does the same ?
It makes NO difference if a man is married or single. He should have the same opportunity to walk away from an unwanted pregnancy as a woman. And please don't anyone give me the line about how it is a woman's body. If it is her body she needs to take responsibility for what happens to it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">


The same choices that are alloted for women should also apply to men if not this is practicing sexism. Being prejudice or discrimination based on sex especially discrimination against men in these circumstances. Behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes. Society as a whole is being very hypocritical towards our men. Just my honest and humble opinion.

#819537 03/03/03 12:08 AM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 412
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 412
TO M05

You are right every situation may be different but betrayal is betrayal.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">so I damn well expect him to do a good job, after all he invaded our lives and and family,</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

WOW, what he raped you? Not being smart just asking! I don't understand I thought your affair with OM was mutual,< if that's the case he invaded your life with an open invitation from you. So you are 100% responsible for that just as he is 100% responsible for lying about having a vasectomy, if that was the case. It's goes to say when you live a lie expect a lie in return.
Not flaming I had to laugh at that statement above
Please don't be offended I laugh at myself too.

Oh another thing, when I spoke about what I would do in a situation with MM. I wasn't being judgemental, I was talking about how I would handle a situation about using protection because they have STD that will kill you. That's all no harm intended.

<small>[ March 02, 2003, 01:27 PM: Message edited by: MALC ]</small>

#819538 03/02/03 01:39 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17
L
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
L
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17
Hey Malc, I didn't respond to the bible reference because I didn't want to get into a debate over the bible. I kind of wanted to stick to the practical aspects and emotional aspects as relating to the children and what's best for them.

As for that scripture, there are a lot of things that happened in the old testament before God experienced our struggles through Jesus and began to advocate a kinder, more forgiving path. God did a lot of harsh, unforgiving things in the old testament. He often picked favorites and chose the best for one biblical character over another. Sure it was best for Sarah and Abraham, but what about the OC? Even if they were taken care of, it's hardly a fair or desirable outcome for that child- to be cast off, fatherless, into the desert. That shows favoritism by God. And this was at a time when concubines were more acceptable and this child was created with God's blessing. I find many of these stories to show a cruel, uncompassionate, and unfair God. One I could never have followed had the new testament not been around to balance things and bring a more compassionate God to light. I don't think we are supposed to follow the old testament literally, but balance it in a context with the new testament. And I never got the thing that God never changes and is perfect. If so, why did he change his mind so many times? He realized he made a mistake with the flood, and said He wouldn't do it again. And there is a total reversal in handling sin- from punishment like Sodom and Gomorrah to forgiveness through repentance. You can't pick and choose which scriptures you want to apply literally and which ones you don't. Maybe no one is interpreting it right. We may all have it wrong. It's not that simple- and your interpretation (that because God did that then in that situation He intended it in the present, post Jesus time, to apply) is just that- your opinion and interpretation. I am not so convinced.

I just wouldn't go around sanctioning a certain action based on my interpretation of how God would handle things. Seems pretty presumptuous to me. And I think if you presume to speak for God, you better be pretty sure you are right. JMO

And I personally believe that no matter what sin we are in, only God creates life. So that no child is truly a mistake, He has a plan for all. Which is why I couldn't abort. I fell into sin with a couple other SG after I left my children's father. An accidental pregnancy could have occured just as easily then, but didn't. Only God knows why He allowed it in this situation. I am sure I have lessons to learn, the MM has lessons to learn, even the BS has to go through this for a reason. I just want to find the best path for the innocent OC, so that they don't have to suffer so much for our growth and because of our actions. The BS is innocent also, but as an adult isn't immune to having to suffer to grow and learn what God wants us to learn. I think children should be spared that pain. I think they need to have a good emotional foundation so they don't crumble when it's their turn as adults to suffer and learn the things we are all here to learn. I think we all deserve that beginning, and that comes more often when you feel loved and wanted by your mother AND father. That's how I see it and again, it's just my interpretation of things.

#819539 03/02/03 02:01 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,163
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,163
malc
I dont guess you have been paying attention, but thats ok, I never said I didnt have a relationship willingly, was not reffering to my affair, I was referring to the fact that my husband and I had moved on in our lives and had taken responsibility for the child I had with om, My husband was and is her daddy, then om came back into the picture, I didnt ask him to, I didnt invite him to, I had no plans of having to divulge this to my entire family, liKE MANY OF THE Women here, I planned on moving on with my life and deal with it.
He chose to come back around, he chose to be involved with our daughter and we let him because we thought it was the right thing to do, even after int he beggining he wanted nothing to do with her, and his wife didnt, now they do, but his wife has wavered on many occasions and yes if they are going to invade my family and my childs life, I damn well expect them to hang in there and do a good job, I dont take my children lightly, nothing funny or amusing about it, instead of being insulting why dont you just spend alittle more time fixing your own mess.

#819540 03/02/03 02:07 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,163
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,163
by the way if you knew what you were talking about you would know I am 100 percent responsible for my bundle of joy, I love her dearly and couldn't imagine life with out her, No I dont blame om for her, on the contrary I thank him, she is awesome, and we love her very much.
all of us. I am ok with that, we have worked it out mutually agreeable to all of us, so I am pretty happy about that.

rape
I will tell you this, rape isnt a funny thing nor is it something to joke about and is highly offensive to say such a thing, when you were reading out of context and trying to start something,
the word shallow comes to mind.
Your right about only one thing, he and I were both willing participants and equally respnsible, I do my part and i expect him to do his.

#819541 03/02/03 03:04 PM
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 713
U
Member
Offline
Member
U
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 713
This post goes on and on because it has such variables in it that everyone has an opinion on.

What I resent in my own situation is that the existence of the OC in some ways mandates a change in the relationship of my H with my children, through nothing they or I did. The decision to keep the OC was the OW's choice, pure and simple. My H tried to convince her to give child up for adoption, or abort,but she so desperately wanted a child that she said she would do anything to have the child.

Now, that was her wish, but why should her wish supersede my family's way of functioning and being?

If my H has contact with the child, he is taking time away from his kids with me. He admits he feels awful doing this. He does not have a great time with OC because he knows he is missing out times with our kids. He and I waited years to have kids until we were economically, emotionally, and physically ready. We both committed to raising these kids together. I resent that relationship changing because of OW's choice to keep the child. Yes, I know all the arguments that H consent for sex implies consent for parenthood with OW. I don't buy it. I agree with posters above-the woman holds the cards with that, and had H wanted child but OW didn't, he would have had no say in it. His wishes, nor mine, nor my children's wishes were considered nor taken under advisement.

So, I ask now, why should I worry about what OC needs? My children's needs are not being considered. I don't think changing their relationship with their father because of what he has done with OW is good for them. I don't think interacting with OC is good for them. I think all the kids deserve a childhood unfettered with this chaos and adult mistakes. And these are adult mistakes. I don't think my kids should have to live with this daily, but they do. They are pained and hurt and distraught over what has happened.Now, I ask you, who has protected my kids from this pain? not the OW, certainly. But I will do my darndest to make their life from now on in as pain free as possible, and that does not involve the OW in our lives.

Page 4 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6

Link Copied to Clipboard
Forum Search
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 163 guests, and 59 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
cbm800, Dodo M, Kingpin, MikaylaVaux, I.P.
71,728 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums67
Topics133,546
Posts2,322,791
Members71,729
Most Online3,185
Jan 27th, 2020
Building Marriages That Last A Lifetime
Copyright © 1995-2020, Marriage Builders®. All Rights Reserved.  |  Web Development by SunStar Media.
Site Navigation
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5