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#820103 03/18/03 03:26 PM
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Well, I'm back again asking questions...it's funny, when you first find out about the devestation, you post here for support. When you decide whether to leave or stay, you're here. When you decide contact/nc, you're here looking for a willing ear and eager fingers to give you both sides.
And now, since we've decided to go with nc after having tried contact for almost two and a half years, I got questions.
I need closure. I don't know how to get it. It's the strangest thing though. It's almost like I'm going through a grieving process all over again. There are so many emotions that I wish I never had to feel or deal with, and now that it seems like I have the opportunity to pay and go on with my life (our lives)with no drama, somehow, there's a sense of anger, frustration, relief, remorse, you name it..
We haven't had contact in over two months. Part of me wants to know how lil lady is doing and part of me wants to giver her mom a piece of my mind. I'm so angry because I truly feel like we did our level best to include her in our lives. And in the end, it still wasn't good enough.
I don't feel like she's won anything, because it was never a competition, but at the same time, I'd hate to see the smug little look on her face like she stole something and got away with it. I hate the fact that lil lady will grow up without knowing her dad and at the same time, I'm adamant at this point that contact will NEVER be an option for us, not now, not next year, not in the next 5,10,15 years...not ever. I don't want to have to relive this nightmare over again and go through all the drama, even when lil lady is grown.
I feel like I did my best at supporting my H in something truly beyond human capability, and now that the effort and time and care that was extended has been thrown in my face, I feel like I need to protect myself and my family and react NOW like I could have reacted from day one....you know...the whole "It's her or us" ultimatum.
That's what I'm feeling. If my H ever feels the need to know the details of his daughter's life, it will come with a steep price tag, because as sure as I love my next breath, I never want to experience what I've been through again.
I never want to have to tolerate a scorned xow for the sake of a child.
I never want to have to play nice and allow numerous phone calls to my house.
I never want to have to explain to an xow why it would be inappropriate for my H to visit lil lady on off days (not that I ever explained this, but it was one of her attempts to get my H to 'Spend more time w/ lil mama) Yeah right!!
I never want to have to get to know the extended family of such a slu@ (yes I said it and that's how I feel at this moment)
I never want to negotiate with an extortionist again.

I want my life back on track.
I want my H back exclusively to myself and OUR children.
I want my son to grow up only knowing his brothers and sisters from this family (and his bio family, he's adopted)
I want to look forward to the day when lil mama turns 18 and I recoup the CS. I told my H from day one, when 18 comes, the cash is mines!!
I want to go to family events and not have explain who lil mama is.
I want to look forward to the weekend with anticipation, not with fear and anxiety because of yet another dramatic pick up/drop off scenario w/ lil mama and her mom.

I'm releived, grieved and peeved all at once and I wish I could bring closure to this in a way that won't further antagonize xow, but will bring me peace.
whoo, that felt good.

#820104 03/18/03 05:04 PM
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Hey girl! Well, I'll jump on this one and hope that others with actual experience can post but here's my thoughts.....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I need closure. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Will you ever actually get that? This is so unlike death in the grieving process because lil mama is very much alive, growing and part of this crazy situation.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Part of me wants to know how lil lady is doing and part of me wants to giver her mom a piece of my mind. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is there someone other than xow that you can check on the welfare of lil mama? And I think you need to consider what would you do with that information? If she's being abused, will you take her in? If she's fine, then will you let that be? just something that crossed my mind. As far as xow....you know that she doesn't care what you think so speaking to her to give her even the tiniest piece of your wonderful mind is a waste. Do not throw pearls before swine.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm so angry because I truly feel like we did our level best to include her in our lives. And in the end, it still wasn't good enough.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know M, peace is knowing you did your best and let life and circumstances and God deal with xow and her issues. It's okay to feel angry at xow for not meeting you and Mr. M half way.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm adamant at this point that contact will NEVER be an option for us </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We've had snippets of this conversation but I hope you don't say NEVER unless that is what God is directing you to do. That may be the course for now however at some point, xow may not be an issue and lil mama or grown mama may want a relationship with you both and she may be able to transcend her mom's issues and all of you may be able to be friends. God will give you grace at the right time for the right things.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I feel like I need to protect myself and my family and react NOW like I could have reacted from day one</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think it's perfectly okay and perfectly understandable how you feel. You are the mama bear of your family after all and I think all of us, no matter our status of xow, bs, ws, etc feel that need to protect. You stepped up to the plate, supported your H and accepted lil mama into your home, your heart and your lives. You tried to make it work. Xow didn't try. Her antics were below the belt and uncalled for. She apparently didn't see the need for her daughter to have bio-dad around. For, if she did, don't you think she'd be questioning why he isn't around right now...

M, I really don't have a closure answer. I've come to realize there's no perfect marriage book, no raising children 101 book, no how to deal with parents 101 book, no how to succeed and move ahead 101 book, no adultery 101 book, and no grieving 101 book. I think we all do that in our own way.

Peace and closure, imho, comes from us working through our emotions, talking out our feelings, giving our souls to God, and the prayers of faithful friends.

M, my prayers for you always. love ya girl!!!!

#820105 03/19/03 09:38 PM
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Matthew, you hit the nail on the head when you said you are in grief.

Giving up on visitation after trying for 2+ years, after trying to bond w/OC, after coping with irrational XOW... it's grief all over again, a different but equally compelling grief as a D-Day. My advice is the same as D-Day: have lots of patience, take excellent care of yourself, work on your marriage, and get counseling if you can. You'll have to allow yourself all the stages of grief: denial, sorrow, rage, "negotiating", and later acceptance.

I'm glad you shared because it helps me be more patient with myself when I have flashbacks, emotions re: OC and having cut contact for lack of cooperation w/XOW. It's too bad, and XOW will always paint us the "bad guys".

God be with you,
J

#820106 03/19/03 10:15 PM
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Mathew,
I too understand a little bit also.
When WS and I decided to proceed in visitation, in the beginning I did not want to participate, but went ahead and jumped in. It took some time, but with visits 2 days a week, I became comfortable with the older(4)yr. old, to actually having a fun relationship with her.

When WS decided to separate 6 months ago, I still would be part of some of the visits with the hope of reconcilliation. But October was the last time I saw the OC. I did miss that part of my life being a positive influence on the child, I loved being a stay at home mom, and our children are grown.

Last week at the place I volunteer, OC school group had a tour, and even after 6 months of not being a part of her life, she ran up to me and gave me a big hug. That was very special coming from this innocent child, who doesn't probably understand why after all that time being with me twice a week, to not seeing me at all. Probably very confusing to her why this man who used to live at my house, is now living at her house.

While I did not have contact with my OC as long as you did, I certainly understand your feelings of concern for her welfare, and just missing being a positive influence on their life.

Tina

#820107 03/20/03 08:11 AM
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Hi again Angelia,

You're right....I am venting and never is a long time...it's just how I feel right now. In some strange way I'm now reacting how I chose not to react when this whole thing was exposed. I know that just because xow's behavior was unbearable, it doesn't give me license to be so cold toward lil mama, but I feel like it's the only way to protect my family from future pain.
I just don't want her showing up at my door step 10-15 years from now wondering why her dad walked out on her and expecting him to be apologetic. I want to protect him from that because I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that he and I tried our best to do what was right, even if it was inconvenient and emotionally draining for the most part.
I'll have to pray on the never part, and maybe that's what I don't have peace about. My human reaction is to seal this episode in a vault somewhere and never have to remember it until the last cs check is sent. Only then wil it be a sweet reminder of how we weathered the storm.

Jenny,
Thanks for your input. I didn't know you'd tried contact. I thought you decided nc up front.
You're right, I do need to approach in the same way you do any other grieving process.
One thing you mentioned was the xow's ability to paint us as bad guys for lack of involvement. For some reason, that's my fear, but not because of all the drama it could potentially bring us (which is a little of my concern) but because of the lies lil mama will grow up believing about her dad, and maybe eventually, men in general.

Tina,
Your response will really help me sort out and prioritize what's the most agonizing part of this whole thing. I am concerned for her well-being, but am I more emotionally bothered by her mother's poor behavior during the attempts at visitation? Am I disappointed at myself for not being more patient with the process or am I disappointed in my H for not being more excited about being a dad to lil mama?

Thanks for your responses guys...
Luv,
MM

#820108 03/20/03 01:52 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Matthew6:14,15
<strong>I want my life back on track.
I want my H back exclusively to myself and OUR children.
I want my son to grow up only knowing his brothers and sisters from this family (and his bio family, he's adopted)
I want to look forward to the day when lil mama turns 18 and I recoup the CS. I told my H from day one, when 18 comes, the cash is mines!!
I want to go to family events and not have explain who lil mama is.
I want to look forward to the weekend with anticipation, not with fear and anxiety because of yet another dramatic pick up/drop off scenario w/ lil mama and her mom.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think closure will happen the more you focus on where you are headed instead of navigating your way through your life looking in a rear view mirror.

As far as the OC showing up on your doorstep years later, I seriously doubt if that will happen...

My OC is 20.5 years old and the only time he thinks of his bio dad is whenever *I* bring it up and ask him questions about his feelings. But my child is a boy and I'm sure that is a big difference than if he were a girl. I just doubt if your OC will show up out of the blue, to your door, expecting a housefull of strangers to accept her as one of the family... Ya know?

I think that is the least of your worries, but what do I know? I could be wrong. All you have is right now. That, I do know. All you can do now is work on your list and concentrate on being the best wife and mom you can be to your immediate family. God will supply the money above and beyond what you could ask or think. He supplies our needs according to HIS riches in glory, not according to our bank accounts! That's good news, I must say!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

As far as your disappointments being in your lack of patience or his lack of willingness... That might be an impossible question.

To be more patient and accepting of OW's antics would be unreasonable, especially since you say she was smug and uncooperative. Who needs that especially when this person's child is involved and the situation is already touchy enough? As for your husband being an enthusiastic father, wouldn't that be risky considering this child is a constant reminder of his infidelity??? It's a no-win question... All you can do is face the moment with determination to meet your goals and keep working toward those goals until you achieve your heart's desire. God is with you!

#820109 03/21/03 01:27 AM
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Matthew6,

I've got no doubt OC will grow up with lies, but I said from DDay-on that we could not protect OC from her own mother!

You have "proven" that even when you live nearby and have frequent visitation, the custodial parent can poison the whole situation and make it Hell for everyone.

We've never had visitation due to distance, but for several years we sent frequent gifts and stayed in-touch for OC's sake. It seemed to make H feel somewhat better to hear that OC was growing okay (he never enjoyed the pictures) and we were willing to try visitation when we return to USA... But XOW was often very vindictive, making nasty guilt-inducing comments to H, painting me as THE reason H doesn't visit. It's ALL my fault, obviously.

She could be lying, but she implies that she paints H as a big hero to OC, that OC literally cries for H. If true, XOW is hurting her own child XOW's knew in her first trimester that H was moving out of country, and we made it clear we would never be near. Her behavior is insane and evil.

XOW will continue to lie and portray anything we do as wrong or insufficient, so why try?! If (older) OC ever wants H's point of view, H will give it to her; but XOW hurts everyone and the less we hear from her, the more at peace we can be.

Even last night I had a nightmare that XOW came to visit us, dragging OC along, being so unpleasant... Yuck.

God's peace be with you in your recovery.
J

PS. BinThere has a point, but I think it's only 50/50 as to whether an OC will ever show up... maybe 40%? Just as in adoption, there are some people who will always wonder about their biological parent(s) until they get more information. I've known two grown OC (both young women) who did contact or try to contact their biodad, but they did not expect to be "one of the family" either.

<small>[ March 21, 2003, 01:31 AM: Message edited by: Jenny ]</small>

#820110 03/21/03 08:50 AM
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Hi Binthere,

"I think closure will happen the more you focus on where you are headed instead of navigating your way through your life looking in a rear view mirror. "

Well said. I'm trying to discipline myself into focusing on the future, and I'm very excited about what we'd like to accomplish. But....it's still so soon since the last visit and now that I'm dealing with nc, it's almost like I'm dealing with all of those awful, disgusting feelings I had and never dealt w/ about xow. It's as though I had to shelf dealing with the bad feelings in order to deal w/ lil mama and her mom being in our lives. Now that she's not in our life, I'm experienceing a lot of the bad feelings. It's almost like I feel like I have permission and room to feel what I really feel towards her without putting a bonding process in jeapordy, because there is no bonding anymore.

"As for your husband being an enthusiastic father, wouldn't that be risky considering this child is a constant reminder of his infidelity??? It's a no-win question... All you can do is face the moment with determination to meet your goals and keep working toward those goals until you achieve your heart's desire. God is with you! "

Again, well said. I guess I never saw his enthusiasm as a risk because I felt like it was something he and his daughter deserved. I wasn't really worried about xow being in any way a reason for the enthusiasm, I knew better.

As far as contact in the future, I have way to much turmoil going on to even consider what the outcome would be one way or the other.
Who knows, by the time we've healed from this and put it way, way behind us, (say....many years from now when she's much more independent)we may consider initiating contact ourselves and leaving the decision up to her.

#820111 03/21/03 09:07 AM
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Jenny,

I don't think xow actually came out and blamed me for things, but the set up was there, in other words, it wasn't far behind.
We had visitation every other weekend. On the one hand, it wasn't enough to avoid separation anxiety when we'd pick her up, but once she was with us, she was fine and fit in quite well with our lifestyle.
On the other hand, we tried to extend visitation into Monday morning (part of the original visitation agreement) but was roadblocked because it would be too much time away from her mom (according to xow).
So it's not enough time on one hand and in her mind, the obvious solution was visits during the week, but on the other hand, too much time during the weekend would be too long away from her????

She wanted my H to visit more during the week, this inspite of the fact that his usual work week is about 60-70 hours and at least once a month he had a reserve duty committment. So instead of perhaps suggesting shared custody, she thought visitation there was appropriate?

The bottom line is that I think she wanted her daughter to have a relationship w/ her dad, just with her involvement. And preferably without as much involvment from me, but in my household, I'm the nurturer and caregiver, and we weren't going to make an adjustment to suite her scorned xow needs. So we had to bargain, negotiate and re negotiate on every major point. It just became way to taxing on us.

So her story to her daughter wil be....your dad chose his family over you. Your dad's wife didn't want you around, or didn't want your daddy around here with you. That's why he's not here, in your life, in contact or available. I just pray her grandfather, who knows the truth, will have the guts to tell her a little more of the truth.

#820112 03/21/03 05:44 PM
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Hi to all! OW has a daugher from a previous relationship and she had that child calling my H Dad. How sick is that. She knew we were married and all the circumstances behind our life. But, he painted all these lies to her. I have no respect for him because, now he is saying how insane OW is letting her child call him Dad when she first met him and for the year in a half that affair went on. To me he is as crazy as her to not speak to her about doing that. How could you let your child call a stranger Dad especially one who went home every night and had two step children whom he reside with. Just one of the sick things this OW did behind my back other than having my H's first child to try and take him from me.

#820113 03/21/03 06:03 PM
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Hi Matthew,
You shoved all your feelings and now they are coming to the surface. Let them come and give yourself permission to feel what you should have been allowed to feel all along.

Isn't it okay to feel what you feel as long as you don't allow those (negative) feelings to govern your life and decisions?

I mean sometimes I "feel" like slapping someone but you can't go around slapping someone every time you feel like it, ya know?

Temptation will come but with it, there is always a way out.

I'm sure there is help for you to deal with these feelings... through intense prayer or maybe even IC? You need a safe place to vent and if you think this forum is enough, then great, but if you think you need more, then go for it!

I'm kind of relieved for you. It's sad for the child that her mom couldn't be more cooperative but that was her mom's choice. Work on your marriage and yourself now. You deserve this chance! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

#820114 03/21/03 06:05 PM
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I just got an idea on how you could get closure?

What if you write down on a piece of paper, "HA HA DEVIL!" and just toss it in the trash!

Because clearly, you have the victory in this circumstance!

You didn't lose your cool, you kept yourself contained throughout the ordeal and now you can just move forward!!!

How victorious is that???

#820115 03/22/03 10:53 PM
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M~

I'm sorry that contact didn't work out with your family and the OC. It is very sad when the OW ruins the chance for the OC to have a relationship with the WH and his family for her own selfish reasons. One of the reasons we never had contact was because we know that OW can't be an adult about this and why should we set ourselves and OC up for pain? I have read too many times on this board of people trying to do contact only to have marriage fail or contact have to be stopped.

I don't come here much anymore, but I remember you from when I used to post here. I know you gave it your all and that is all that you expect of yourself. You did what you could, OW is at fault here, not you.

Everyone else gave good advice here. I don't know what else to add. Just that I do believe that OC will one day know who her mom really is, I mean her personality, etc. As children, I think we see our parents as perfect, but as adults we accept them for how they are and recognize their faults, etc. I think she will know how her mom (OW) is and will know that you guys had no other choice.
I am hoping for that in our situation as well.

Prayers for you to get through this and that your family will get through this also.

#820116 03/24/03 08:08 AM
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Hi Binthere,

Thanks for the kind suggestions. I'm sooooo glad to know there are people out there that can help me through such a tough situation. And you are right, I have the victory. He wanted to take a crazy circumstance and make me crazy as a result...NOT!
I did shove my feelings aside, because I felt like I'd need a lot of time with no contact to be allowed to experience the feeling and not want to react. So to give myself a safety zone, I felt them and then prayed extremely hard that I wouldn't feel that way anymore. So in a lot of ways supression, right or wrong, was the option I chose in dealing with my own negativity.

I can let it rip now though....not on this site though...too many people could catch the ugly vibe.

Hi Happy,
I remember you from waaaaaay back. How are you doing?
I agree, I hope she grows up to understand her mom's flaws and move on from that anyway. Don't we all have to do that at some point?
Maybe she'll be mature enough to understand the options? I just hope she'll be able to reclaim some of that lost time with her dad.

Butterflie,
No comment, I wish I had the answers to the whys and hows an adult in this situation can not see and think clearly enough to prevent causing their child any amount of current AND FUTURE pain and suffering.


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